When Questioning Won’t Leave You
Wendell Berry opens his novel Jayber Crow
“Persons attempting to find a ‘text’ in this book will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a ‘subtext’ in it will be banished; persons attempting to explain, interpret, explicate, analyze, deconstruct, or otherwise ‘understand’ it will be exiled to a desert island in the company only of other explainers.”
So I’ll try not to do any of that.
But . . . I continue to be drawn to Jayber’s training for ministry at a small conservative Bible college. The problem for Jayber was that he was full of questions and doubts—things that seemed to never occur to his confident professors. He wanted to know why if Jesus said to love our enemies we justify killing them . . . why prayers seem to go unanswered . . . what happens when two good people pray for opposite things . . . and so on.
He told himself that when he started preaching, he just wouldn’t mention the parts of scripture that troubled him, “but,” as he explains, “it got so I couldn’t open a Bible without setting off a great jangling and wrangling of questions that almost deafened me.”
So he asked for help.
“I went to my professors with my questions, starting with the easiest questions and the talkiest professors. I don’t think about them much anymore. I don’t hold anything against them. They were decent enough men, according to their lights. The problem was that they’d had no doubts. They had not asked the questions that I was asking and so of course they could not answer them. They told me I needed to have more faith; I needed to believe; I needed to pray; I needed to give up my questioning, which was a sign of weakness of faith.
“Those men could go on all day about the sins of the flesh or the amount of water needed for baptism or whether you could go to Heaven without being baptized or who could and couldn’t go to Heaven, but they couldn’t say why, if we’re to take some of the Bible literally, we don’t take all of it literally, or why we kill our enemies, or why we pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets that we may be seen of men.
“That I should give up my questioning was good enough advice, which I would have been glad enough to take, except that my questioning would not give me up. It kept at me. Sometimes it seemed to me that people I walked by in the street must be able to hear the dingdonging in my head.”
What an insightful paragraph that is: my questioning would not give me up.
I’m so thankful for leaders, teachers, parents, mentors who permit people to doubt and question. I’m so thankful for those who will honestly share their own dark moments and point ahead in faith.
Just telling someone to pray more or believe more or go to church more or to stop thinking so much—well, that just isn’t very helpful.
Ok, this is brilliant. Almost thou persuadest me to read W Berry’s novels. Love his poems.
Mike, I’ll have to add this to my list of books to read! Doubting, questioning, probing, seeking. It’s been the fuel my faithwalk has always used to ‘grow’ me. There is no room and I have no time in my world to banter about the methods of prayer, morning or night, 5 min or 15, etc. The past 7 years I’ve gone from church to church encountering teachings of a restricting faith. Those 7 yrs were not wasted though. Because of my experiences I can recognize the difference and now so relieved and thankful to have recently found a place to grow with the freedom to share lives and explore together.
~ peace & blessings! ~ Mel
Reading through the Bible chronologically this year. Done it before and always learn new things. Also found myself with many more questions than answers and noting appeared misconceptions and ambiguties that at times make me wonder why i keep reading. But, i’m trying to see who God really is and why many of the descriptions don’t fit the reading. Lots of questions, very few answers and trying to be more dependent on the one from the beginning of time, who sees all, knows all, is in charge and yet loves me!!
As a teacher I always thought it was my job to get even my 5 year olds to question things…think! Ask….
It was a challenge.
More questions than an answers? You bet. Lots of doubts? Yep, you betcha! So if Jesus taught us to love our enemies and pray for our enemies and those that abuse us, then what’s the deal with punishment or paradise for those that hate or love him? Easy enough to ask the questions, more difficult to provide a significant answer, eh?
Seems like the easy answers are all used up.
Hesed,
Geezer
If it’s okay with you, I’d like to ask a question based on this post for you and your followers.
For me, questioning everything comes naturally. Almost NEVER am I content with the first or second answer, which are usually poorly thought out, just as is written here. As a student at both Harding and ACU, the answers (in bible class) seemed to me to be OBVIOUSLY dumb, up until grad-level courses, for the most part. I always assumed they were either morons or just giving the answers that would keep them their job. My favorite teacher at Harding (a friend of yours, Mike, so I’ll keep quiet about his name) – was outstanding at it … but even he got anoyed with the questions when they became challenging to his own personal beliefs, and on more than one occasion humiliated me in class just to shut me up (temporarily).
So here’s my question: why do we praise questions so much, and then persist so little in finding the answers? I’ve been following this blog and Rachel Evans’ for a few months now, and they both seem to have one thing in common: questions either seem to be answered with anything non-traditional (often really sappy), or – people simply give up searching for an answer, and make a god out of being ‘open’ enough to KEEP questioning, and accept that the answers are unknowable.
I always figured that if it’s important (like salvation, for instance) that God would LOVE us for being persistent and determined to hunt the answer down like crazy. I crave the truth so much, that I totally get the questions … but how can anyone stop there?
Why do people give up the search so easily?
(or – am I just a jerk? It’s okay to tell me that, too)
Luke18, You are a brilliant discerner of truth. Well done. ( To perceive with the eyes or intellect; detect.)
Lk 18 (or perhaps in this case, Lk 13 would be a more apt nom de plume) – I don’t really know the people you’re talking about so I can’t respond. I know those who live with the hard questions, continue to search for answers (or tentative answers), but who also live in the mystery. Just craving answers to the big questions doesn’t mean you’ll get them. Otherwise, we’d HAVE them.
To every difficult question, there’s a simple answer. But it’s almost always wrong.
This was the first Berry book I read. I was hooked !
Speaking of mysteries and evil, is it true? Is Harold’s BBQ closing at the end of this month? And if so, what has the City of Abilene done to arrange psychotherapy services?
stunned qb
Mike – thanks for your response. Your suggestion for a better nom de plume cracks me up! But especially in this context, for of course, now I’m ‘questioning” something and seek the answer (simple or not).
I wonder: What did Mike mean? What in Luke 13 could he be referring to? Maybe I’m the guy “seeking to enter the kingdom,” but unable (verse 24). Or maybe Mike’s saying I’m the guy who needs to repent for judging the Galileans … I’m so confused, and now compelled to search for the answer.
I know of no relationship between the simplicity of answers and the truth, except that Einstein (and most engineers) would disagree with you. They believe simple, elegant, even beautiful solutions are usually the best.
I do, however, believe that some answers are hard to find (simple or not), and require tenacious work to dig through tons of ore in order to find a few nuggets. I also believe God honors diligent, tenacious work. Because I believe these things, I’m forced to challenge myself: am I too judgmental of others who “quit” before they’ve found right answers?
I posted my question for you and all your followers because I genuinely want to know if people are overly-infatuated with “the mystery’ when they should continue to dig – with effort.
Or – should I just chill out and let people be content with (what I arrogantly consider to be) unnecessary ignorance.
??
Luke Eighteen,
No answers, just another questioner/seeker you might want to check out: http://ajrasking.blogspot.com
Luke18, I’d love for you to share your questions……i’m a firm Bible-Believer and many of the questions asked in the original post are not difficult to answer-if we actually look at God’s Words. It’s not a rule book……..and the answer should appear on p.63……but the principles are present. However, it is necessary to to see and understand the whole picture of God : God the Father, God the HS ,and God the Son. 3 distinct personalities in one.
Ask about 3-4 questions, if that’s not too personal for you, and let’s look at them thru God’s Word. I’m not into “rethinking” God and i’m no longer a member of the CoC. I’m one of those fundamentalists – not a steriotype.
Luke 18 – Thanks for your follow-up and your spirit.
First, the Lk 13 reference is to the perplexing questions that come at the beginning — pertinent to our topic, I thought.
Second, you’ve overestimated the relation of people who’ve followed this blog off and on for eight years to me. They’re hardly “my followers,” though I’m guessing we may form our own “synoptic” view of faith.
I give thanks for the mystery of scripture, for the deep sense that God’s ways are far beyond our ways, for the belief that some day we shall see face to face. Now, we see dimly. We live in mystery. Many questions are unanswered. I’ve devoted much of my life to studying scripture (seven years of Greek, a couple years of Hebrew, theology, history, exegesis, etc.) . . . and yet I’m left with so many unanswered questions. Through the years this has given such a deep, rich appreciation for scripture.
And Gina, I seriously mean this: God’s blessings on you. But if you think these questions are easily answered by just believing the Bible . . . well, you and I are so far apart we’ll just have to give God thanks for each other’s faith journey and be content to have places where our perspectives overlap.
This is related, of course, to this post: http://preachermike.com/2011/01/11/summer-christians-winter-christians-and-the-narrative-of-injury.
I love this part of Jayber’s quote: “I don’t hold anything against them. They were decent enough men, according to their lights. The problem was that they’d had no doubts.”
I don’t think less of non-questioners and non-doubters. But they haven’t influenced my faith much, and I don’t get them. In some ways, though, I’m happy for them. Genuinely. I could do with fewer tortured questions.
I’m thankful that there is an anchor that sustains me in my questioning: my confidence in the resurrection of Jesus.
Mike, you have the glorious Questioner as your companion. He too cried out “Why….?” At this advanced age I’ve come to accept that there are some questions/doubts that have not come to their time as yet. When will be their time? I haven’t the foggiest – but I do know God took my hand years ago leading me to understanding, answering only when my silly mind and heart have been able to grasp His meaning. Questions remain. Every day while reading some well-known and loved scripture verse or chapter He pulls me up short, as though to say, ‘You think you understand me, do you? Surprise. Here’s another question for you to wrestle with.’
At least in my case, He makes His constant presence known through these answered questions and through new ones He drops into my thoughts.
I’m also positive that my simple way of living with His questions is too simple for your greater seeking mind….just sharing where I’ve come to so far. One thing – I’m very obedient to Him …… I refuse to worry about it. He really does not like for us to be worrying – ask, but we really should not worry.
btw-Congratulations on today’s family gathering together! What a thrill for you, Diane, Chris and those 4 that are now making Abilene home.
YAY for y’all and PTL for His great goodness to your family!! \o/
Even Jesus had questions he couldn’t answer in this life. I refuse to believe that I know more than my Lord.
wow, thanks for the responses!
Mike, my usage of the term ‘followers’ was unfortunate. I meant it kinda like twitter followers, not like groupies. Sorry about that. (But then again, if I had your communication skills, I’d have my own popular blog)
I just cannot read that summer/winter post again. It’s so creepy. I know who you’re talking about when you mention ‘summer folks’ (1 Tim 1.7) and I absolutely hate the idea that I might be associated with them. But I am one (sort of) – ahh!
I’ve had lots of doubts and questions. I just don’t want them to remain so unless God does. The way I tell the difference is to work. If God wants me to know something, He’ll let me find it as I search (with tenacity). If it’s less important … well, that’s knowable, too.
Despite it’s frequent abuse, I find great wisdom in the old “speak where the bible speaks, and be silent…” quote. Sadly, many people talk too much where the bible is silent. But sometimes God doesn’t speak in the whirlwind, sometimes He just whispers … and if we strain to listen, we can hear things we’d otherwise miss. Proverbs 2.2-5 & Psalm 119 are among my favorite passages – that’s all I’m saying.
I keep writing too much in this entry. I need to edit myself, and just say thanks for letting me post my question here – and for your patience. I would totally understand if you were suspicious, but you’ve been very gracious.
thanks & sorry
(oddly, that’s my most common expression in prayer, too)
luke18, I’d truly love you to share one of your questions – let’s search the scriptures to see if God gives us the answer.
Mike, I can honestly say there are biblical answers to the following questions shared on your post. I didn’t say the answers come from just “believing the Bible.” The answers are within the Bible. Big difference. We are asked to move from milk to the meat of scriptures. We are asked to study.
“I wanted to know why if Jesus said to love our enemies we justify killing them . . . why prayers seem to go unanswered . . . . what happens when two good people pray for opposite things . . . and so on.
The questions above are answerable within God’s Word.
I would recommend to Luke18 that he abandon the CoC simplistic and limited theological approach to “speak where the Bible speaks and be silent when…..” Huge Huge problems with it . Because of it, most CoC people lack in any understanding of our triune God and I would comfortably assert almost no understanding of the Holy Spirit.
Again, the questions this author wrestles with are indeed actually simple. Does anyone want me to give you a Biblically based response?
Mike,
I ‘ve also met your friend Ben Peterson : he’s my nephew ‘s (by marriage) good friend and his oldest just graduated from OCU. We “enjoyed” a few Biblical discussions together- I believe the topic was eternal security:I believe it, he does not . Despite this, I really like him, great sense of humor and quite witty.
I think he earned his Phd from Princeton or Yale? (maybe different degrees from both) I don’t re-call at the moment.
My daughter is in a courtship with a great guy who graduated from Patrick Henry College: he turned Oxford down to attend Patrick Henry…….he’s graduated now and doesn’t regret his decision. Unfortunately, he told my daughter tonight, he’s Reformed – Oh No – another 5 pt. guy. I obviously believe he is still a christian although i’d love to casually debate him and set him on the correct path…lol
I’ve been following biblioblogs and reading book apologetics obsessively for the past year, looking for answers to questions about the Christianity I’ve grown up with. I’ve reached a point where my doubts are definitely outweighing my faith.
Mike, you made me think of one of my many questions, when you mentioned your training in Greek. Much of my doubt has to do with biblical inspiration. Other than the new testament scholar Paul, is it likely that the unlettered, Aramaic-speaking disciples of Christ could read and write in fluent Greek? If not, what are we to think of the gospel of John? Or the letters of 1st and 2nd Peter? Do we assume that they were translated from Aramaic to Greek and that the translator was also inspired?
I’ve heard arguments that the Matthew and Luke accounts of a virgin birth are stories used to support a Greek mistranslation of Isaiah 7:14, “young woman”, in the septuagint.
I understand if this is outside the scope of this post, but I thought I’d see if you had any thoughts about the nature of inspiration and the language of the texts.
A little context for these “tip of the iceberg” questions:
Part of what I’m hearing in this post (except, perhaps from Gina’s viewpoint of clarity and biblical simplicity) is that many of you have questions and doubts, but you’re comfortable living with some mystery and have faith in ultimate answers.
My problem is that the doubts I have about inspiration are not pointing to a God that is mysterious; they are pointing to a God that is unlikely. I’ve been reading “Evolving in Monkey Town”, and I can certainly relate to Rachel Held. But where she seems to be able to balance her rationality with her faith at some level, I’m finding that path more and more difficult.
Q!!! What an honor to walk this path together with you.
Doubts, questions do not disturb me, rather they draw me into an even more intimate relationship with Him. I enjoy letting Him answer my questions as their time arrives in my heart, soul and mind. This from one that has not been known for having a great gift of patience.
I often wonder how I would feel if I were able to understand everything about God and doubt I’d be this interested in being drawn into a closer relationship with such a one.
Freda – thanks for the cool link. I’m loving it.
Gina – I DID share my question. My question is why do people stop digging for answers so soon? The original post was about a guy dissatisfied with unresearched, simplistic answers – and then told his questions indicated a weak faith. I got the same stuff in college. But rather than being content with the mystery, I kept digging. The act of diggin actually strengthens and proves one’s faith.
Q & Kathy here respond with excellent answers to my question. They quit digging because they believe that they can’t know some things because Jesus didn’t know everything, or because God doesn’t give answers until He’s good and ready (a timing issue). They seem (to me) to fit with what Mr. Shaw sees in Rachel Evans’ apparent ability “to balance her rationality with her faith.”
I, like Mr. Shaw, find it difficult to believe in God at all – if He is a cruel, selfish liar – or if all evidence found in scripture is a sort of confusing mass of nonsense & superstition. Some people are happy with simple answers – some are happy with no answers at all. But I believe that if God is real, and the bible is true – then it is rational to believe it. And I will not invest my soul and the souls of those I teach … based on either: easily found answers or the ‘wonder of the great mystery.’
Mr. Shaw … I’ve found some of the answers to your questions.
Here’s some advice (for what it’s worth):
1. Keep searching – don’t stop
2. Try to understand the motive of the teacher (church, doctrine, advocate, blogger, scientist, etc.). It’s like the old watergate thing: follow the money. If you know what motivates someone to tell a particular version of a story, you’ll be a long way toward knowing why they see things the way they do – and that’s why I posted this question originally – to better understand motives.
3. You’ll learn more about the truth you seek by studying the social, cultural and historical context than you will by simply going to the languages. It took me almost a decade of Greek courses to figure that out!
4. Again … keep searching. I can assure you that God is real and He’s true. (Jeremiah 29.13 – a bit out of context, but it still applies – Also Matthew 7.7) Quitting before you’re content results in a wobbly faith – it’s real, but fragile, and can fail when you need it most.
God expects us to cry out for Him when He is hard to see, just as David did in Psalm 10:1. It shows we notice His absence. It shows US… which brings me closer to Him. Then as life hits you in the … if you’re fully aware, you’ll see his gentle, revealed persuasion. ~ blessings, mystery and all. †
luke18, Perhaps I thought that was a rhetorical question – who can answer why people stop digging for answers so soon?
obviously, various responses to this – some are unregenerate spiritually and the Lord said that one must be His , a new man in Christ. Although we are still in our fleshly state , positionally we are of spirit. He clearly states that His parables are a mystery to those who are not of Him. Yes, Christ states He does not know specifically the time of His return but the Father knows. However, I see very little examples of Christ not knowing what the Father knows. I think this is the only example of His limiting Himself to the full revelation.
I also believe one who is simply intellectually curious about Scriptures will not understand and give up or interpret scripture from a particular view they like – yet never understanding. Others give the “standard answers” of their particular training and thus are out of their comfort zone for deeper probings. Some, simply, have God wrapped in a box. Generally, people stop digging because they may not like the answers or they are indifferent.
Thru out scripture, God answers this question for us……Certainly, the Pharisees didn’t seek Him; they challenged Him for more and more evidence of His nature – seeking Him to say He was God in the flesh, so they could kill Him. Pagans, even though given the general revelation of a Creator chose to follow many gods . They worshipped His creation rather than the Creator.
Luke18, Do you not have any specific questions about God? It’s difficult to know the answer regarding why particular people stop searching for answers….I believe most questions are answered in scripture; thus many consider me closed-minded and/or foolish. Yet I searched without reading, asked without truly seeking and invented rather than follow. Again, why not share some specific questions you have relating to God – let’s see if we can find answers in His revealed Word?
Luke18, please don’t assume that I’ve stopped digging. I’ve just stopped looking to myself as the final determination of whether I’ve found all the “right” answers. I have always been and likely will always be a very analytical thinker. I wish — oh, do I wish — that there were a list of exactly correct answers that would completely and wholly answer every question put to it. Well, I don’t; but I used to. I used to think if I knew the why of everything, I would have an easier time with faith.
I don’t know all the why, but I’m leaning ever closer to Who. And while I don’t stop digging, I do stop shredding myself and my faith because my mind demands a better answer. I believe — and continue to dig.
+1, Q. I’m not sure why gina and Luke18 insist on this straw man. It’s the life of the mind that is tortured, not the life of blissful certitude; one could argue that the latter is far more of a cowardly capitulation than the former.
*salute*
qb
Gina, there is also another side of the coin in that some keep questioning because they don’t like the answers.
“Don’t like the answers”?
Might it not be more generous to say, “do not find the answers compelling/coherent/etc.?”
Of course it would be more generous, and probably more accurate as well.
The polemical edge to “don’t like” clearly implies that questioners are profoundly guilty of bad faith (in the sense of “disingenuous”), when in fact they – WE, as qb is among them – have in many cases invested our entire lives up to this piont in this discipleship thing. And qb, for one, does not at all relish the prospect of looking back at all of those 46.7 years with the titanic regret that would attend the conclusion that “it was all a waste of time.” In fact, such a conclusion would probably drive qb into an asylum.
Heaven forfend! qb is looking for reasons TO believe, not reasons to ESCAPE belief. I have too much invested in Christ to bail out now.
qb
Q, thanks for the clarification – I understand better now.
qb, I don’t understand your reference to straw men or cowardly capitulations, but I get the feeling I’m supposed to feel insulted. If so, then I must have done something to irritate you, and I’m sorry.
I’ve been under the impression that some people are far too content to live forever with questions that can be answered. Like C.S. Lewis’ “ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.”
I’ve been under the impression that many of us in our movement have discovered that we haven’t been told the truth completely or accurately by “traditionalists” (or whatever), and having discovered the flaw, simply moved on to whatever was different or new or refreshing, and that for some people it was enough simply to find contentment with unecessary ignorance.
The reason for my question was a simple one: to examine myself. I just wanted to know if my suspicions/impressions were correct, or if I was being judgmental. that’s all it was about.
qb, I’ve seen enough of what you’ve written to know that you haven’t stopped searching – so my question wasn’t to you. But again, I’m very sorry if I’ve hurt your feelings.
It seems to me that I’ve misjudged this whole situation. I’ve stepped into the middle of an “us-vs-them” disagreement … and created the impression that I’m in one of those camps. I am not. I’ve been rejected by both.
I’m going to exit this discussion right now before causing any further disgruntlement or bickering.
sorry for the intrusion
No, Luke, you haven’t. qb wasn’t saying you are among the “cowardly capitulators,” and you haven’t offended qb one whit. In fact, you’ve been most gracious and pleasant. But the “straw man” observation stands: as Q put it, the assumption that somehow questioners have “quit digging.” It simply ain’t so.
Now if Q (and qb would be just as guilty as well) has erred in seeing that “giving up” ascription as a prominent aspect of your wondering-out-loud, then simply refute it, and restate or clarify. No problem.
qb
One other thing, Luke: that Lewis quote is a beaut, but if memory serves, he wasn’t speaking of doubt vs. faith, he was speaking of settling for a cheap counterfeit of abundant life in Christ. Any plausible overlap between the two would be easy to overstate. But I take yer piont: much of what we doubters are asking CAN be known, by your reckoning, so to that extent we are robbing ourselves of joyful confidence. Fair enough. But when the low-pressure center is posted over theodicy and similar matters, it’s just not that simple. (Even Bart Ehrman, who has chronicled his journey to agnosticism via theodicy in _God’s Problem_, hasn’t entirely “given up.”)
qb
qb, that some keep questioning because they don’t like the answers does not necessarily imply that all questioners are guilty of bad faith. That’s a big brush to paint with and is the same as saying that all questioning is valid. There are some who keep questioning because they don’t like the answers. As there are some who refuse to trust God and keep questioning and doubting God.
Anne…conceded as a narrowly technical matter.
Narrowly technical, in fact, bordering on trivial. We’ve not really been talking about EVERYONE here; we’re talking precisely about US, those of us who have engaged Luke et al. in order to push back a bit on what seems to be an inaccurate representation of the nature of doubts and the faith status (commitment!) of doubters. Many in this corner of the blogosphere have indicated our heartfelt resonance with Mike’s original post, and it was we whose expressions of resonance instigated the ensuing back-and-forth.
So it’s most helpful to hammer this stuff out without trying to extrapolate beyond the community actually engaged in the conversation. For the purposes of this conversation, qb (and Q, if I were to guess, and others) don’t have the vast masses of people in mind as we protest the characterizations being offered of the doubting class.
Perhaps we can say this: the people to whom your “broad brush” criticism might be relevant – those who have not invested huge chunks of their lives and intellectual energies in Christian discipleship in the first place – probably are not terribly self-conscious of, or scandalized by, their own doubts. Here, the situation is clearly different. My doubts ARE an existential scandal to me, an occasion for sometimes overwhelming spiritual stress.
qb
Too many Hamlets occupy space……..luke18 – i regret to pronounce you’re simply one of the many. It’s not at all unique.
I enjoyed the part in college and thankfully stepped out of the circles
qb, I didn’t understand that you were looking so narrowly, I didn’t get that from the conversation. And actually, I was adding to the reasons that Gina stated of why people question. But when I re-read her response I see that she had added my same response, I just overlooked it.
Some questions about questions ( and these are real questions , not to dodge the emphasis of this blog or to do a brushstroke of overlooking who is in the current dialog community nor is this meant to be scarcastic but I really want to know ) . Is it bad , narrow and unopen to say , after much study , ” This I believe and am fully convinced for myself…. examples:
1. Jesus was born of a virgin.
2. His miracles were actually miracles
3. He bodily arose from the grave and did ascend into heaven .
No , doubt we all have questions but is it wrong to say there are some conclusions and convictions that are bible based ? Or do we say , no everything is always open to questions and there cannot be absolutes because we are only fallible humans and no one can know really and truthfully for sure about anything ? Is there any truth that is non- negotiable ? And if anyone says that , is that individual just too narrow , harsh , judgemental , etc. and not open ?
Good questions. Ray. I would at two more to the list of fully convinced for myself.
4. We are saved by faith in the Son of God and the grace offered by the shedding of His blood not by living perfectly or by having the answer to every question.
5. We are made righteous through our faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith [Phil. 3:9]
Then a comment on professors and allowing discussion of doubt in the class room. I would suggest that at least in the 60′s when I attended college–the majority of the students were not grounded enough in their faith or had made it their own [instead of that of parents] to be exposed to any serious doubts. So, the professors chose to limit the discussion for the greater good of the majority in the class.
A question Lk 18, If your seriously look at yourself at the time of the Bible classes you mentioned in your first post.
Did your humiliation result from your continual bringing up questions of doubts because the professor was not answering more than you really wanting to know the answers? You do not need to answer here just to your heart as you consider your critical statements about your professor [one in particular].
Fair dinkum, Anne, qb proposes a bubbly toast to all of us here, speaking straightforwardly about things that matter…like, for example, “what can be known.” *clink* And Ray, qb does believe Jesus rose bodily from the tomb, yes. The other questions you raise aren’t phrased quite as precisely as we might wish, so qb will demur.
full circle or lessons learned that I already knew (but should not confess)
“Persons attempting to find a ‘text’ in this book will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a ‘subtext’ in it will be banished; persons attempting to explain, interpret, explicate, analyze, deconstruct, or otherwise ‘understand’ it will be exiled to a desert island in the company only of other explainers.”
I do agree with Wendell Barry’s plea to his readers, not because one might be tempted to do so but that it can’t be done. For me to even find a text or subtext to intrepret explicate, analyze, deconstruct or “otherwise understand,” i’d have had to of taken great quantities of LSD. I’ve read stories of people talking directly to God or discovering the meaning of life by watching a spider weave her web by this method Actually these experiences might be more personally satisfying then the many tortured questioning Christians paying money to read about anothers insecurity. It’s Omniism (and i understand the irony….fyi).
Gina, am I understanding correctly that you cannot understand and/or apply an earthly text written by one person all in a single era of human existence, but you have ascertained the exact meaning of all of God’s word, passed to us in oral and written tradition by hundreds of authors over millennia covering themes so dense and so deep that even Jesus had questions?
Wow.
I hope it’s not too lonely being the only one who understands scripture.
fini
Q, what kind of questions did Jesus have? I’m racking my brain and I can’t come up with one.
Anne, really? Have you never read the Gethsemane garden narrative? And while he was on the cross, he may have been quoting Psalm 22, but it’s a deep question: Why have you forsaken me?
Those are two that jump to mind immediately. But re-read the gospels. If you walk that road with Jesus, he has more questions than answers many times. The amazing thing about Christ was not his miracles, not his teachings, but his absolute faith despite everything, even questions.
To live without questions is to live without humanity. Surely you believe that, while divine, our saviour was also human?
Gosh I hate LSD psychology, and I’m old enough to remember it. However, I hate simplistic explanations for complex things even more. The myth of certainty is alive and well, both inside and outside the CofC.
“That is the worst moment, when you feel you have lost
The desires for all that was most dersirable,
Before you are contented with what you can desire;
Before you know what is left to be desired;
And you go on wishing that you could desire
What desire has left behind.”
D. Dallas, you said:
“I would suggest that at least in the 60?s when I attended college–the majority of the students were not grounded enough in their faith or had made it their own [instead of that of parents] to be exposed to any serious doubts. So, the professors chose to limit the discussion for the greater good of the majority in the class.”
How is it possible for men and women to make their faith their own [instead of that of parents] with seriously confronting doubts or the inevitable questions about their faith? (And I do think that, when students reach college age, it’s time to treat them as men and women – adults.)
Yes, I am questioning my faith. But I can’t unquestion it. And no professor or teacher can shelter me from questions. Not in college and not now.
Food for thought.
Q states: “Gina, am I understanding correctly that you cannot understand and/or apply an earthly text written by one person all in a single era of human existence, but you have ascertained the exact meaning of all of God’s word, passed to us in oral and written tradition by hundreds of authors over millennia covering themes so dense and so deep that even Jesus had questions?”
“Wow.
I hope it’s not too lonely being the only one who understands scripture.”
Q, Hold on girl——-If you fail to understand my above post, I understand. However, let’s not twist my words. OK?
I said Q that this particular book and specifially “When Questioning Won’t Leave You” From my specific reference, you come up with “am I understanding correctly that you cannot understand and/or apply an earthly text written by one person all in a single era of human existence”
Is something wrong here Q? Extrapolations Magna.
In terms of God’s Holy Word? I’ve never claimed to understand every “exact word” in scripture. Q, Please give up on your straw arguments…tedious and unworthy of you.
Q “but you have ascertained the exact meaning of all of God’s word, passed to us in oral and written tradition by hundreds of authors over millennia covering themes so dense and so deep that even Jesus had questions?
This is an interesting statement and sniffs of an absolute. I’m shocked but not surprised. This is a common claim
by unbelievers.
Q, I believe God is perfectly capable of preserving His Word. If God can raise people from the dead and is the creator of all. It’s not too difficult for Him to preserve His Word….and God claims He preserves it for us.
I do claim, I can answer the questiones by scriptural study posed by the author of the book.
Now, this is not to say, all ancient manuscripts are equal or poor translations exist. I agree with that….but if one actually does some research on this topic, it’s , atleast it was for me, a simple process. This is basic academic research .
Also, your insistence that Jesus didn’t know “alot of things” or however you framed it is simply false. Do you want a discussion about this….anybody interested?
Q, hold on! Are you having another migraine? I myself have been sick with sinus for 2 weeks and the brain is slow. I wasn’t thinking of the garden and the cross, but was trying to think of questions that he had in his teachings. I don’t disagree with having questions I think that is how we grow, learn and come to a deeper understanding of God’s word. Maybe what threw some off was my earlier posts about some who keep questioning because they don’t like the answers. there are people like that and I think you might see that’ll the Pharisees in that kept questioning Jesus because they didn’t like the answers. I still can’t think of any questions in just his teaching off the top of my head so I’ll have to go back and look. Or maybe you could give a fellow migraine sufferer an example!
Sorry for pasting this but I hope it helps in understanding the confusion of Christ “not knowing all things” I also recommend many biblical studies about the self-emptying of Christ and His work on the cross.
The Gospel of Matthew:
(KJV) Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
(KJV) Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
The Gospel of Mark:
(KJV) Mark 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
(KJV) Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Note that in the intervening verses, in both Matthew and Mark, Jesus is able to tell the disciples the many signs that will signal the nearness of the second coming, yet according to the verse, He apparently does not know the exact hour it will happen. Is this not more than a little strange? Was Jesus really ignorant of the time of His own second coming, yet able to relate the many signs of it? Lets look at the word used in both passages that is translated as “knoweth”, which is the Greek “eido”:
From Strong’s Greek Dictionary:
1492. eido, i’-do; a prim. verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equiv. G3700 and G3708; prop. to see (lit. or fig.); by impl. (in the perf. only) to know:–be aware, behold, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) known (-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wist, wot. Comp. G3700.
Now note how the word is used in the following verse:
(KJV) 1 Cor 2:2 For I determined not to know (eido) any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
In the above verse, Paul is saying that his only desire is to make known Jesus, in other words to preach the Gospel. Now if that sense of the word eido is used in the passages is question, they would then be rendered as follows:
Matt 24:36 / Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour no man will make known, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father (only will announce it).
In the ancient Jewish wedding custom, the bridegroom’s father arranges the wedding (Matt 22:2). During a period of betrothal, the bridegroom prepares a bridal chamber at his father’s house while the bride waits at her house. It is only when the bridegroom’s father is satisfied with his son’s preparations, that he gives his permission to his son to go and get the bride, and bring her to the bridal chamber. The groomsmen would then precede the groom to the bride’s home, blowing the shofar trumpet and shouting that the bridegroom was coming. The bridesmaids would join the procession and light the bridegroom’s way with lamps, as this happened at night. Jesus refers to these wedding customs:
Mat 9:15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast. (Mark 2:19-20, Luke 5:34-35)
John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
With this understanding, Jesus was not saying He is ignorant of the hour of the second coming, but rather, He cannot reveal it, neither can angels, because according to the wedding protocol, it is reserved for the Father only to announce that the preparations of his son are complete, and the time for the wedding has come.