John Piper on Abused Women
2011 January 29
I’m dumbfounded.
Sniffing out the work of God in the world…
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I’m dumbfounded.
Office of Church Relations | (310) 506–4270
24255 Pacific Coast Highway
Malibu, California 90263-4270
And where the 7734^-1 does Piper come up with a “group sex” scenario as an example of spousal abuse…from his own imagination? The more I think about this, the more absurd he sounds.
If this is “better than most ministers on this issue” – and Ron, I’m not casting aspersions on you here; perhaps you’re right – then we are in deeper soup than I had reason to suppose.
qb
In my youth I was married to a violently abusive “Christian” man who beat and raped me on a regular basis. I stayed with him as long as I did because an older woman in the church told me that he wouldn’t have any reason to beat me if I were submissive enough. I believed her wholeheartedly. I had never been taught by my own family that I deserved to be treated with respect by anyone else. When he nearly killed me, I finally told the pastor about the situation and why I had stayed. He gathered the church elders and told them about me, and then sat me down and explained to me that my husband had repeatedly violated the marriage covenant, and that he and the elders all agreed that I was no longer bound and was free to divorce and remarry without shame or guilt. He had to tell me that several times before I could accept it. Those wise and compassionate men saved my life. I obtained a divorce and moved on.
Later I married into the c of C, and at one point went to the elders of our c of C seeking advice, comfort, and guidance after learning that my new husband was addicted to print, video, and online pornography. The spokesman elder informed me that if my husband was “getting what he needed at home” he would have no “need” for pornography. I was devastated. Still fairly naive and gullible, I received and absorbed his lie as truth. At another time, out of the blue, in the middle of the church hallway, that same elder informed me, with a leer on his face, that I needed to be “careful” with my daughter because she had physically “developed” rather early and fully. I was disgusted that he paid that much attention to the shape of my child’s body. Years earlier, a preacher at that same church told me that because I was “cursed” with an attractive figure, I caused men to sin – between his comments and the inappropriate lewd comments of several men in the church about my figure, I became terrified of remaining thin. No one suggested that it was the MEN who had a problem, instead of me. When I was going nearly crazy caregiving for a mentally ill relative the elders shamed me when I admitted that it was a terrible struggle. Those are just a few examples of the spiritual abuse I experienced in the c of C from men who were our spiritual leaders, whether they were elders or preachers. I can count on the fingers of one hand wise and kind church leaders who make husbands responsible for their own sin instead of blaming their wives or insisting that wives remain in abusive relationships. I was damaged enough being married to two different men who abused me emotionally, mentally and physically — the last thing I needed was for church members/leaders to add spiritual abuse to the mix.
I had to go outside the c of C to receive decades of pastoral and extremely expensive professional counseling to attempt to recover from all of it. It sickens me to hear yet another church leader, especially such an influential one, say that a woman should endure a “season” of any kind of abuse. All of it crushes the spirit and poisons the soul. The more you endure, the more it kills the soul and destroys whatever love you might have had for your husband. And when your children witness even a few incidents of such abuse, they grow to either emulate the abuser or hate him. Or both. I think staying in such a marriage with children constitutes child abuse, because you’re teaching them that it is acceptable to commit abuse and it’s “spiritual” to endure abuse – both of which are always destructive in the long run.
Aside from being nauseating, I have no idea how he goes from abuse to group sex to getting smacked and heading to church. Speechless.
Someone should direct a few of Piper’s followers to this blog. I guess we should pray God’s grace is big enough to cover the pain caused by the “ministers” mentioned by Lisa and Kathy. Terribly sad.
Do others see the implications of people ranting about the feminizing of the church? Like the church ought to be male! It should reflect both male and female, but to use one gender in a pejorative sense tells us a lot.
At our church, our minister one time did a series on how the church suffers from being too much for women and not enough for men. As I listened to our privileged male (of course) minister say these words in an assembly where only men can pray and serve communion at a church that is led by all men…well, I looked around to see if others were laughing. Sadly, all I saw was bobbleheads.
Got to feel sorry for those poor men. Lord knows they get completely left out of church. Except for preaching every sermon, leading every prayer, making every decision, etc. When we have video interviews, it’s always the men who do the main speaking. We’re progressive, though, because sometimes wives get to bat their eyes adoringly and submissively and then add a word to affirm what the husbands have just said.
What I really hate is that we blame God for this.
Mike, dear pastor/preacher, teacher and friend!
I was able to finally get back to this thread. Bless you for your loving comments. AND ….
Talk about heroes! It is because God’s family DOES have so many loving ones such as you are, that I could find my way back into the arms of my Heavenly Husband and Savior! I thank Him daily for all of you that hold women in equal regard and yet in special regard when it comes to the awful inequality we have lived under for so long. PTL!! and I \o/ Him while thanking Him for each and all of you.
Total switch of conversation, but please be careful with all your travels this winter. I pray for your safety every day, especially when we have days such as these past two and the ones still heading our way. May God’s travel mercies accompany you on each and every journey!!
Mike,
Is abuse grounds for divorce?
Kathy – I got luck with travel schedule this week. Last weekend was beautiful, and next weekend is supposed to be. But for these days that Abilene is basically shut down, I’m home and happy!!
Dean – yes.
Someone said “And where the 7734^-1 does Piper come up with a “group sex” scenario as an example of spousal abuse…from his own imagination? The more I think about this, the more absurd he sounds.”
I don’t know where he came up with it but it should be considered spouse abuse and my bet is that in middle class USA it is at the very least as common as physical abuse. I guess it depends on how expensive the trailer park is in one’s neighborhood.
So many comments seems to suggest that Piper advocated a spouse accepting repeated beatings, which he did not. On other topics on this blog so many advocate all that we ought to endure and sacrifice for the sake of being a disciple of Christ. Is all of this just for show but it doesn’t really apply if it happens within the family?
Also, it seems that so many (with CofC backgrounds) can not imagine the leadership of a congregation being involved with families in the congregation (community) to the point that they would be of some earthly good. That is a bit of an indictment of this denomination rather than the larger church.
I don’t advocate a spouse (husband or wife) enduring significant physical (or other) abuse, but it seems many on this blog can’t wait to sink their teeth into Piper no matter how much it contradicts the position they assume towards one of their loved ones.
Hesed,
Geezer
I’m not really sure where all the middle class Americans go for group sex, but the fact that it would be an abuse is not the bit in question. The question was an aside, essentially asking why he would pick something so random than to address the issues of abuse that come at first to mind — verbal, physical and, yes, sexual (but typically not group sex). I’m sorry, Geezer, if it is all the rage where you live, but it’s not around here — and I don’t just mean it’s not talked about here. I don’t think anyone can say that one spouse physically assaulting the other is somehow an uncommon event or that command-induced group sex is common — because I’m not certain which was your point. There isn’t rampant group sex going on, but there are abused spouse shelters for a good reason. And there’s a reason the locations are kept pretty hush.
I’m going to disagree. And I’m going to disagree with your signing that comment with any sort of wisdom, much less chesed. There is a culture of abuse and it’s more widespread than you want to see, I guess.
And no, no one is saying Piper said “stick around till you’re beaten to death.” No. They were disagreeing with his saying that it was the woman’s duty to essentially take a smack for Jesus at the hands of someone who had vowed to love her as Christ loved the church. I think that’s different than Paul talking about Christians at the hands of a government sworn to persecute them.
Quiara,
I am not advocating a spouse endure physical abuse and I don’t believe Piper is either. My hunch is physical abuse does not normally just jump up one day out of nowhere. I suspect it begins with each party showing less attention to their vows and deteriorates from there – perhaps depending on how dysfunctional the relationship is.
Had an interesting conversation with a brother from church 25-30 years ago when spouse abuse was frequently in the news. He had been married about 50 years and said that early on in their marriage, during an argument, his wife had hit him and he hit her back and neither one of them had hit the other since then. He suggested they both learned something important about how to deal with each other. And let’s be honest – all married couples have to learn how they are going to fight – and hopefully it won’t involve physical or other abuse. As fallen as we are it is unlikely that we will always get it right.
All I heard Piper say was don’t desert the marriage at the first sign of a problem; and that the church is an appropriate place to find help. Many churches are as dysfunctional as many marriages and apparently that has been the experience of many that chose to share their comments above. But it should not be that way and in some churches it is not that way.
I suppose one of my main points is that Piper becomes the whipping boy for many on this blog. It is easy enough to make someone look bad if we are selective in what we show of him.
The reverse could be true of the favorites of this blog.
The other point was that on this blog I hear many speak loud and clear on what we ought to submit to and sacrifice for the sake of others (and no I am NOT talking about government oppression) in our everyday lives. I hear folks speak so highly of community and now scoff that the church could be of any earthly good in a real life situation. Strikes me a a little odd.
In Hosea, the prophet went and bought back his wife from the market place though she had been so unfaithful. Just another example of God’s loving kindness (hesed) towards those who would be so lost w/o it.
Hesed,
Geezer
Geezer: “My hunch is physical abuse does not normally just jump up one day out of nowhere. I suspect it begins with each party showing less attention to their vows and deteriorates from there – perhaps depending on how dysfunctional the relationship is.”
I’m so pleased you have not had personal acquaintance with physical abuse, because if you had this comment would not have been made over your signature.
When there is an abusive partner in a marriage, that abuse can show up in the first months of the marriage as much as it can show up the first time a couple of years down the line. The psychosis of the abuser is not one of not liking what another is doing, it is, like rape, a question of power over another human being. It will build in ferocity and unfortunately, in some cases it will build to the absolute power over the other in taking the life of the victim. IOW, Geezer, it is not the marriage that needs help, it’s the abuser and quickly before s/he does take the life of their spouse or child.
Kathy,
You make a valid point but I don’t see what it has to do with the video of Piper. He was asked a question about abuse. The word is used with a lot of latitude: to describe truly horrible physical abuse and it is also used to describe saying something unkind. Piper noted the extremes and did not counsel anyone to endure being smacked around, raped etc. He did leave room for the church to provide a safe place for the abused and to intervene on her behalf with the abuser. I don’t see that as an absurd place to start but it was ridiculed in the comments. In the case of an extreme abuser more extreme remedies are almost certainly required.
I saw little connection between what Piper actually said and the vitriol directed his way in a number of the comments. It seemed to degenerate rather quickly to worst case scenarios and that is not what Piper addressed.
I am most sorry if you have experienced a physically abusive spouse or other family member. It is my prayer and God would provide special care for you and lead you into a relationship safe from the hurts of any man so depraved. It is pathetic that anyone might advocate submission to abuse as it was described in several of the comments or that any man would think it acceptable for him to act in such a manner.
Hesed,
Geezer
Thank you so much, Geezer – and thank you for being such a gentle person yourself. God’s blessings on your day today and every day!! In His love, grace and mercy! Amen!
Geezer
Thank you . I was wondering if Iwas the only one who saw things differently as to what Piper was saying. And , yes , it is agonizing to hear about preachers and elders who would tolerate abuse. But it is also hurtful to imply it is happening in every congregation. I have known of churches who have responded to abuse in amazing ministries of compassion and those who have confronted abusive husbands. I have always told wives that theydo not have to tolerate abuse. And to leave. Had to confront a husband only yesterday who was headed in this direction. Hopefully , he will understand his impatience and seek the better way of the gospel driven life.
I think the only thing that makes me more ill than this Piper clip is that people would defend him. It’s exactly what Allen called it. The self-righteous smirk in the beginning and everything afterward. I’m truly nauseated right now to know that other men are on this blog defending him. It’s why we don’t trust church.
My last thoughts on this for today, I promise!
It might help put the right emphasis on how one is treated by looking at a dictionary definition of the word ABUSE, whose noun is ABUSER. I think we’ll see there are only “extreme” cases of Abuse. There are several facets to define Abuse, and interestingly only one as an antonym.
* * * * * * * * *
a·buse
? ?/v. ??byuz; n. ??byus/ Show Spelled [v. uh-byooz; n. uh-byoos] Show IPA verb, a·bused, a·bus·ing, noun
–verb (used with object)
1.
to use wrongly or improperly; misuse: to abuse one’s authority.
2.
to treat in a harmful, injurious, or offensive way: to abuse a horse; to abuse one’s eyesight.
3.
to speak insultingly, harshly, and unjustly to or about; revile; malign.
4.
to commit sexual assault upon.
5.
Obsolete . to deceive or mislead.
–noun
6.
wrong or improper use; misuse: the abuse of privileges.
7.
harshly or coarsely insulting language: The officer heaped abuse on his men.
8.
bad or improper treatment; maltreatment: The child was subjected to cruel abuse.
9.
a corrupt or improper practice or custom: the abuses of a totalitarian regime.
10.
rape or sexual assault.
11.
Obsolete . deception.
—Idiom
12.
abuse oneself, to masturbate.
Use abuse in a Sentence
See images of abuse
Search abuse on the Web
Origin:
1400–50; (v.) late Middle English abusen < Middle French abuser, verbal derivative of abus < Latin ab?sus misuse, wasting, equivalent to ab?t ( ? ) to use up, misuse ( ab- ab- + ?t? to use) + -tus suffix of v. action; (noun) late Middle English abus < Middle French abus or Latin ab?sus
—Related forms
a·bus·a·ble ?/??byuz?b?l/ Show Spelled[uh-byoo-zuh-buhl] Show IPA, adjective
a·bus·er, noun
an·ti·a·buse, adjective
o·ver·a·buse, noun, verb (used with object), -bused, -bus·ing.
un·a·bus·a·ble, adjective
un·a·bused, adjective
—Synonyms
1. misapply. 2. ill-use, maltreat, injure, harm, hurt. 3. vilify, vituperate, berate, scold; slander, defame, calumniate, traduce. 6. misapplication. 7. slander, aspersion. Abuse, censure, invective all mean strongly expressed disapproval. Abuse implies an outburst of harsh and scathing words against another (often one who is defenseless): abuse directed against an opponent. Censure implies blame, adverse criticism, or hostile condemnation: severe censure of acts showing bad judgment. Invective applies to strong but formal denunciation in speech or print, often in the public interest: invective
against graft.
—Antonyms
3, 7. praise.
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2011.
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Now I am going to try to get my car out of the snow, warm it up a bit and hopefully, be able to get to church in the morning.
I am no defender or anyone that truly abuses another – and I know it exists a lot more than many realize.
Dictionary definitions are nice but words are used with lots of latitude and often inappropriately. I am well acquainted with real and exaggerated cases of abuse. All of my almost 40 year career was spent in personnel security and I won’t shock you with all the confessions I have elicited and cases I am familiar with.
The other side of the coin is that sometimes a person claims abuse and it is exaggerated. I am personally acquainted with a number of these cases as well. I will provide one example.
The wife of a man married for approximately 30 years (with two teenage boys) decided she wanted to divorce him. She told the preacher and elders at the local CofC (very large congregation) that he was abusive. She NEVER provided any details or description of the abuse to the elders and preacher. She refused to go to counseling with anyone at church or out of the church. The man sought the assistance of the folks at church to get her to go to counseling, either with him or w/o him to no avail. The preacher told him it was hopeless (he talked to the wife twice for a total of less than two hours) and the elders suggested that he find another congregation at which to worship as he really wasn’t welcome there.
He was a retired military officer and had a high ranking position with an important US government agency. His youngest son was involved with “soft drugs” such as marijuana and inhalants. He had spoken what many would call “harshly” to this son and expressed his disapproval of the behavior. His wife thought he had a temper and should not have spoken so harshly. This is what constituted the “abuse.”
He spent over $100,000.00 on treatment for the son. When the son turned 18 he joined the USMC and served honorably. By the time he finished his stint in the USMC the familial relationships were restored and he was even invited over for family dinners at his ex-wife’s house
The man has remarried. He enjoys a great relationship with his sons and gets along with his ex-wife, or is that the other way around. I have been together with him and his sons on a number of occasions and his oldest son had been good friends with my son since before all this began 15 years ago. I am privy to the details! The elders at church have expressed to me (not to him) their regret at accepting the ex-wife’s word that he was abusive with no details or evidence to support it. The asked me to invite him back to church but didn’t have the gumption to do it themselves. When I suggested his ex-wife might not want him there (she still attended) the elders told me too bad for her as she was the one that had been out of line. They had simply taken the abuse accusation to mean something like the dictionary definition supplied above.
So yes, there is a dictionary definition to the word “abuse.” People should use it appropriately rather than tossing it out willy nilly. But in real life it doesn’t always happen that way. For every case of real abuse that not treated appropriately there might (just maybe) be a case where the accusation was exaggerated way beyond reason. Perhaps that is not as infrequent as some might think, just like real abuse.
To all those people who are or have been in a truly abusive relationship: My heart goes out to you. Please do what you have to do to get out of that relationship.
I do understand that one who has truly been abused might find it difficult to understand/believe that the term is sometimes used inappropriately. When it is it can come close to ruining the accuser’s life.
Hesed,
Geezer
Sheryl,
Could your comment above be described as: “to speak insultingly, harshly, and unjustly to or about; revile; malign.”
Do I really think that you were abusive? No, I don’t, though I recognize some would call it that. I suspect you are defensive and frustrated – maybe there is the possibility you are reacting as a person who has been abused or is the friend of a person that has been abused or sensitive about the topic for some other reason. I don’t know you so I wouldn’t want to be too speculative and certainly not accusatory. I wonder how well you know me, or John Piper.
I wish you well and hope it is clear that the word “abuse” is used with a lot of latitude, sometimes appropriately and sometimes not.
Peace,
Geezer
Heartbreaking that a man like John Piper can be so completely clueless to both the reality of our world and the heart of our God.
So if he says things that contradict God’s will she submits to God and not to him but if he slaps her around then she must endure it until she can talk to someone at a church about it? How on earth does he separate the two like that? He is going to lose a ton of credibility on this one.
She is “simply” going to have to endure abuse “for a season”? Come on John P. You should know better.
Thus ends another exciting episode of the I Hate John Piper Show. I suppose it is okay to speak in an abusive manner to or about someone if we disagree with a comment they made; unless you are married to the person that said something we thought was stupid.
“Hate,” Geez-babes? Wow. Very bold charge. qb
qbie,
I assume you read all the comments, and have seen previous episodes of the I hate John Piper Show on this channel so I am sure you understand my intent. Granted, “hate” is a bold word, but it is just the name of the show. Please take it in context as it was not intended to be taken too literally; and, I think I tried to make the point earlier that words are used with a lot of latitude. I am not sitting home crying b/c I don’t like the show, and we all have the option to change the channel no matter what we are watching. Many channels have good programs and some that are not as edifying as others.
Cheers,
geezie
How right you are Geezer. It is truly amazing that those who cry so loud to be tolerant , forgiving and grace -filled and gospel driven are sometimes some of the most vindictive and hateful when someone disagrees with their interpretation.
I’m new here, so please forgive my intrusion. I’m also (apparently) a moron, because I don’t understand why Mike is dumbfounded, or why this got the reactions it did.
I wish Mike would actually write his own answer to the question … just for understanding. I’m not trying to be weird here, but it seems to me his answer was pretty good, and I must be missing something.
Here’s what I thought I heard him say:
Given the HUGE number of things that could fall under the category of ‘abuse,’ he narrowed it down to two broad categories: 1) being asked to do something sinful (hurtful, wrong, disobedient) or 2) suffering direct harm. His answer (seems to me) was that 1) Christian women don’t put husbands above God, and 2) if they’re hurt, they seek help from the church – (which would then, presumably, offer counseling, or protection, or call the police, or whatever was appropriate).
Seriously, I don’t mean to be dull, but I thought that was pretty okay. Maybe it’s because I’m new here and don’t know a history (I’ve never heard of Piper before) … anyway, I’d be open to learning from you all what was wrong with his statements or my understanding of them. I mean, I’ve been telling people pretty much the same things as he said … where am I wrong?
Thanks for your patient responses
Some of you men scare me. Seriously.
There are abusers. And there are those who defend a system where abuse is epidemic.
The whole attitude is wrong. The smirk. The laugh. The description of a wife whose whole mission is life is to serve her man. The “just” to describe being smacked around. The idea that you could turn to patriarchal churches (that have long histories of defending abusive men).
Some of you men don’t get it. And Geezer, I don’t hate John Piper. I don’t know John Piper. Kind of a lame thing for you to say, really. Sounds like people have theological issues with Piper’s view of women and his strict Calvinism. Is that a problem? Are you bothered that people are bothered by that? Do you just want everyone to hold hands and get along? Is it ok to stake out another theological position?
Erin, please. How about a bit of perspective? Was Jesus and/or Paul “defending a system where abuse is epidemic”? Do you think women in modern America are more abused than women in Israel in Jesus’ day? I can assure you that’s kooky. (And I’m not even getting into the women who happened to be slaves – who were also expected by Paul to endure abuse)
Jesus said to turn the other cheek, and then He demonstrated it by taking beatings and abuse on a scale you can’t imagine. Yes, I’m comparing the two, because I think (like Paul) that it’s a privilege to suffer along with Christ – to have fellowship in suffering – even to the point of beatings and imprisonment.
I am a man who has had many beatings … beginning with my dad, and through many fights and hardships over the years, and I can tell you all for sure … there are worse things. Now I live with a woman who is mentally ill – depressed to the point of incapacity, almost. The psychological abuse is worse. The fact that I refuse to confess her sins to others means no one knows … they think we’re fine. But I will NOT leave her, and I’ll endure her “abuse,” and I’ll do so because my Lord did so. And I’ll do so, because I promised to stay with her even in sickness, and there was no exclusion for mental sickness. And when this sick life is over, I’ll be taken home.
The fact is, we live in an abusive world. It’s time we all quit whining about it, and got busy doing something. Endure the pain, sure. You know what happens as a result? You get stronger.
The scripture has it right: “Who can find a woman of noble character”?
Women aren’t one bit more abused than men – they just gripe more.
Hard to add anything to HB’s comments.
Erin,
The part that is problematic for me is that Piper did NOT advocate a woman enduring being smacked around and many of the comments respond to him as though he did advocate that. He made a clear statement indicating that the word “abuse” may refer to saying unkind things on one end and being physically abused on the other end.
You said: “The whole attitude is wrong. The smirk. The laugh. The description of a wife whose whole mission is life is to serve her man. The “just” to describe being smacked around.” I did not see that in the Piper video. Perhaps you saw it somewhere else.
He suggested the abused spouse (I take it to be verbal and perhaps progressing towards physical) be endured for a season while the abused spouse goes to the church for intervention, help, shelter whatever is appropriate in the circumstances. That idea was ridiculed and examples of dysfunctional church leaders were provided. I don’t recall anyone suggesting the church might be an appropriate place to seek help.
In short, I think many of the comments responded to what the reader wanted to hear Piper say rather than what he actually said. Also, I have some doubts that the clip of Piper was put on the site with the intent of encouragement or edification.
Hesed,
Geezer
Ding, ding, ding, ding. Somebody finally came out and just said it. Thanks, HB (and Geezer for saying “hard to add anything to HB’s comments”). Just endure the abuse. Thank you for explicitly saying what’s been simmering underneath. Just take the beating. Or at best, trust the men of the church (who are largely made up of other men who think she should be submissive, take the beating, and wait for an eternal reward).
Erin,
Perhaps you misunderstood. Did you really want to understand or just look for a stone to throw? I was not advocating you or another person endure being smacked around by some man that chooses to act like the southbound end of a northbound horse.
I was applauding a person that was willing to endure mistreatment from his wife for the sake of Christ. He could leave and he knows it, but then who would take care of his wife? so he chooses to sacrifice himself for her for the sake of Christ. He vowed to love her in sickness and in health and he intended to keep his vow. What could I say to add to that? Ding ding ding ding! Is that a bad thing for him to do?
I was also applauding the recognition that sometimes wives abuse husbands, though they do so with violence less frequently than the other way around. Nearly all of us mistreat those around us (spouses, coworkers, children, friends, our employees) at times and much of it could be called abuse, if one were so inclined to toss the term out. I prefer to save that term for physical abuse or extreme verbal abuse, stuff like that.
None the less, like so many others, you still are NOT responding to what Piper actually said in the video. You clearly misunderstood my thoughts. Is it possible you misunderstood Piper too?
Perhaps this issue is so visceral, especially for those that have truly been abused that whenever anyone speaks on the subject they only see their own past experiences. That is understandable in light of how horrible it is for one spouse to beat and bully another that they have vowed to love and honor and serve. But it doesn’t contribute to an intelligent discussion of this particular video.
I’m guessing that usually when people say “I can’t add anything to that comment” they are endorsing it. In other words, “I believe what he said.”
Here’s what HB said:
1. He endures psychological abuse to stay with his wife, and he expects others to stay in whatever situation to endure the pain, knowing that heaven is ahead.
2. Jesus taking beatings is a model of how we are expected to stay in abusive situations. (Heaven is ahead, after all!)
3. People who’ll stay in abusive situations will get stronger. (Funny, I’ve been to abuse shelters. The women there looked more scared and beaten than strong. Did they just not stay long enough?)
4. Women are pathetic. Isn’t that the point of his misuse of scripture: “Who can find a woman of noble character”? He’s attempting to provide the answer (in this context, in light of what follows): “No one can, because they’re such whiners.” His little anti-female rant says that women aren’t abused more than men. They just gripe (hear: bitch) more about it.
Did I misunderstand him? Did others not hear what I heard in those words?
I don’t know him, but everything about his rant makes me think it’s likely we don’t have the full story about his marriage.
No, Erin, you nailed it. And him. I heard exactly the same things. qb
I agree with qb. I read it the same way Erin read it. Kudos to her.
A wife who has been abused can tell you quickly how it occurs so much more often than one would think. An abused husband will tell you it occurs frequently too and might even add that men are less likely to report it than women.
One person reads HB’s comment, probably reads between the lines a little and sees one side while another person does the same thing from the opposite point of view. And as Paul Simon sang “still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.” Did HB have anything at all that was good to say?
One would think we were all out to win an argument or pin someone to the mat rather than have a discussion that might be of some earthly good. I am disappointed in the invective directed at Piper and wonder if anyone is interested in addressing what Piper actually said in the video.
Should a person ever endure any mistreatment by a spouse? If so, how much is too much? Is it appropriate for the church to function in providing intervention, shelter or other assistance to an abused spouse. Should it be a first resort, last resort or not at all?
Should a wife be submissive to her husband? Should a husband be submissive to his wife? or do we just want to say Piper is a jerk?
Geez-babes, every single one of us is addressing what Piper said, what HB said, and/or what you have said. The primary theme of these responses seems not to be penetrating, so let me try a different tack. Let’s try some reasonable generalities. ALERT ALERT ALERT! THESE ARE GENERALITIES, AND qb KNOWS IT!
If insensitive, boorish, domineering myn were not the ecclesiastical hegemons that they are widely perceived to be (and not altogether without reason), womyn might be more inclined to seek help through the church. As it stands, church authorities appear to reinforce the domineering impulses, or at least defend them using dubious scriptural warrants. So it should come as no surprise that the advice to “get the church leaders to help you” is met with a dismissive yawn, if not an extended middle finger.
Myn are also, by and large, physically much stronger and able to impose their will on womyn.
Myn also occupy, by and large, the role of “provider” in a household, which sets up a tacit expectation of submission on the part of the womyn.
The whole system, in other words, is a spiraling, self-reinforcing, cultural artifact predicated on dubious exegesis and hermeneutics, and it tilts the playing field decidedly in the direction of quiet submission. Thus: “taking a whack for Jesus,” as one gentle contributor put it. And Piper’s video response simply perpetuates a variety of the myths embedded and embodied in the extant ecclesiastical order.
What we need is a strong emancipative push, and Piper has not helped it; in fact, he’s symptomatic of the hill we need to climb, the hurdle we need to surmount.
neofeminist qb
Tears in eyes. Thank you, qb.
For some reason, having a man say that feels, oddly, safe.
Something this whole discussion has highlighted is this line of thought:
Abused persons cannot logically and accurately join in a discussion about abuse because they are too biased.
Looks a lot like this other train of thought we’ve been riding before:
Women cannot logically and accurately join in a discussion about “roles” because they are too biased.
What no one voices is the underlying “truth” these lines of thought promote:
Unabused persons are unilaterally right in this discussion by virtue of not having been abused. Therefore they can speak authoritatively about things with which they have no experience.
Which is similar to this:
Males are unilaterally right about this discussion by virtue of not having been born female. Therefore they can speak authoritatively about things with which they have no experience.
This is why it takes a man to make the change from female subjugation to equality between the sexes — because the unspoken, “invisible” bias has passed itself off as unbiased and accurate, levelheaded consideration.
QBie babiie – neo feimsitst that you claim to be,
Your comments regarding the local church to “get the church leaders to help you” is met with a dismissive yawn, if not an extended middle finger” speaks volumes regarding your view that the local church really is of no earthly good when it comes to addressing practical everyday issues such as spousal abuse. – and this is an everyday issues. I assume this is based on your personal experience with the local churches you have been involved with – and I assume they are CofCs. Is this your view of the CofCs as a whole? I wonder if this is how Mike views Highland CofC and perhaps other CofCs he has been involved with. If so, why do you, Mike and other like minded individuals remain there? Please know that that is not true all across the theological spectrum, though it may not be limited to just the CofC.
But is not Piper’s fault and I wonder why one might blame him for everything that is wrong in their own congregation. On the other hand, if this is the I hate John Piper Show maybe I can understand that some would blame him for everything that is a little screwed up in the CofC. If you choose to give him, or your denomination, or your local congregation the middle finger that is up to you. I won’t take it personally unless you direct it towards me – and even then I am likely to ignore it even if it was not so “well struck.”
Over and out,
Geezer
Geezer – you’re stating this is qb’s view? The view qb is articulating is the view of most of the respondents to this issue. And their view is that of hundreds of thousands (unfortunately thats probably a low figure). Most of this number are loving Christians that enjoy a wonderful church home, but when it comes to certain “practical everyday issues”, they turn elsewhere. There is a reason for that and that is what I hate. I don’t hate John Piper – I hate the fact that he has a stage to reach multitudes with a paradigm shifting (and scripturally valid) message of change towards submission and abuse, and he is NOT doing it!
Okay, I think I get it now… the real issue here seems to be that most of you fellowship with awful churches that have mean, hateful old men as “elders.” I admit I’ve also attended (and left) churches like that. If your elders suck that much, then either replace them with men who are qualified or leave. One of the qualities of a good shepherd/pastor/elder mentioned in scripture is that he’s been a successful family man. A man who has such a reputation will be someone to whom they can go when they’ve been abused and need relief.
My objection (or “rant” as Erin called it) was to the simple fact that she accused people – here – of “defending a system where abuse is epidemic.” This statement, I now see, is one made from a person who must have a history with bad churches, and assumes they’re all like that. Well, this is wrong. I’ve attended and preached at churches in TN, CA, AR, TX and others. Some are good and many are not. But in every case, there is no “system” that has an abuse epidemic. That’s simply a false statement. Some sadly overlook it, and others are unaware of it.
In many churches, people like Erin believe bad things about the leadership so strongly, they’ll never even bother to approach an elder and find out – they “know” before the fact. Just like in her post above where she ding-dings, and sees my “rant” as nothing more than coming clean from “truth” that was there all along. I guess I get it – we all overlook misstatements from our friends … but not from our enemies (or anonymous people on blogs that dare disagree with us).
My wording may have been poor, and I apologize for not recognizing the nature of this group sooner. But if you’ll allow me, I’ll try to be clearer:
I was attempting to respond to Piper’s statement about the abuse being a smack. My take on that was that he was talking about the first incident of abuse. He (seems to me) was suggesting that you endure it at the moment rather than strike back or walk out or retaliate or whatever. Then when the incident is over, the abused woman visits with her (hopefully qualified) elders and/or respected church members. That is … biblical, and it’s loving.
It is so, because of one simple fact: abuse is sin. When an abuser hurts someone, regardless of gender, the abuser is either a sinner or a mentally ill person or both. Getting church involved adds perspective that is impossible for those involved.
One must be prepared to forgive sinners and help them STOP sinning. This is true if one sins sexually, or uses drugs or goes on blogs and bashes churches. In any event, two things must happen if the sinner is a “Christian:” The sinner must be rebuked (Luke 17). Then if he repents, he must be forgiven. In a situation where the sin is liable to be a habit, like drugs or spousal abuse … then the church leaders should be prepared to walk with the person and help him/her overcome – or disfellowship him/her.
My dad was an elder who did this on several occasions. He intervened and made it clear to the abusive man that it stopped right that instant. Then he made it clear to the woman that she should try to work this out if she could. When the man proved unwilling to eliminate the sin, then my dad rescued the woman. When the woman proved incapable of forgiving, he counseled with them until things (usually) fell apart.
I again apologize to those of you who think I expect women to continue to accept continued beatings – I do not. Nor do I expect men to be forced to marry women who think that submission is degrading. Submission is an honor and a blessing for all sheep – even ones with imperfect shepherds (which all but One are). Submission does NOT mean that you “entrust yourself” to someone (John 2.24)! But it DOES mean that you sometimes sacrifice your rights in order to win the more (1 Cor 9).
Submission is the key to all of Christianity. It is behind “it’s more blessed to give than to receive,” and turning the other cheek and going the extra mile. Sometimes it means we suffer, but praise God that wheras all people in this world suffer, we Christians are uniquely in a position to sing songs of joy through it all.
Sorry this was so long. I’ll go away and leave you people alone now, and apologize once more for language too strong for this venue.
Must quit reading. Eyes splitting. C. worries that more don’t believe in good old patriarchalism. Let me guess, C.: White, male, middle-aged, south? Yes, yes, the only problem is that more people aren’t hearing Piper.
Must check out. This makes me ill. But thanks again, qb, Richard, Allen, etc. Gives some hope.
I will add this observation: most of the people I hear saying we need to love and trust the local church are men. They tend to go to churches that talk about sacrifice and then let you live materialistically, that are big-time into submission to men, that seem edgy on things that make absolutely no difference (worship style) and hold the line in areas where real change needs to take place. They spend lots of church time talking about how great their church is.
I guess I would dispute the characterization of discipleship to Jesus as a matter of unqualified submission. The scriptural data and witnesses are not unanimous on this proposal, but they seem to suggest a better model would be that THOSE IN A POSITION OF STRENGTH are the ones who ought to choose to submit, and those who are oppressed are free to raise their voices in prophetic protest. The objective is both shalom AND agape, with the latter being a means to the former.
Further, those in a position of authority need not be “mean and hateful” to be toxic. They might be, rather or also, blind, myopic, misguided, clueless, deaf, distracted, clumsy, or neglectful. Their responsibility is to be self-aware enough to submit to a prophetic word if it has a germ of truth, to be teachable and sensitive. Piper is not beyond redemption. Would to God that he eventually sees the way his teaching perpetuates systemic – yes, systemic – evil and tacitly (or otherwise) enables abuse. He is doing great damage with his stewardship in this area, if only (!) because he is not using his notoriety and stature, fleeting and contingent as they are, to give voice to the plaintive cry of the voiceless. Into the void step the Deborahs and the Jaels of our age.
qb
Curdled milk, anyone?
Erin, your generalizations and stereotypes are bordering on bigotry. Be careful with those prejudices … they can eat you up if you let them get the upper hand. I’m just saying … be careful. Maybe it would help you to remember that the host of this blog (Mike) is a middle aged white male. Making things adversarial isn’t Christ. Don’t curse those for whom He died – even if you judge them to be sinful.
QB, I’d encourage you to reexamine the matter of submission. Try to step outside our modern western view of leadership and submission (if you can). Jesus pointed out that we weren’t supposed to become like the gentiles who “lord over” people. Our western culture and sadly also our churches have completely failed in this regard. No doubt that’s why people here are so peeved at the idea that one would talk to a church dominated by older white men. If those men weren’t being dominant, many of the issues would leave. Leading ala Jesus means just that … walking in front of someone and showing them the way … not bossing them around.
BUT – (and this is important) – just because our “shepherds” have ignored the warnings of Jesus (and Ezekiel 34 and others) does not release the sheep from responsibility to follow! To our western minds, it seems wrong, maybe even unfair. Especially as Americans we have the attitude that if ‘leadership’ isn’t good – we have the right to rebel. While we may have that right as Americans, we don’t have it as Christians. Recognize that we don’t submit to human leaders because we trust them – we submit because we trust GOD!
The context of the statement “It’s more blessed to give than to receive” is church division. It’s not popular with mediators these days, but Jesus’ answer and Paul’s answer to the problem were unanimous: let the babies have their way. Paul suggested submitting to government – even when Nero was probably ‘the man.’ Jesus submitted to Rome, Herrod and even the High Priest, who was clearly phony!
Submission comes hard to modern Americans, but it is nevertheless necessary. And as women like Erin get angrier and more bitter, the liklihood of her ever submitting diminishes. I’ve met many folks whose minds are completely closed on the subject, sadly. And this general theme in our culture does great harm to churches and marriages … because we force a heirarchical view on the leader/submitter roles.
As for me and my household … we will submit.
“All who would come after Me MUST take up his cross daily and follow ME.”
Just read down through this thread. Cannot help but wonder if there isn’t some connection between HB’s first and last posts:
“Now I live with a woman who is mentally ill – depressed to the point of incapacity, almost.”
“As for me and my household … we will submit.”
Perhaps not. But really, HB, we’re tired of more lectures from men on the need to submit. You think we haven’t heard that a million times? Do you really think that the other perspectives from people on this blog aren’t from people who love God, believe the Bible, and seek to follow Jesus?
“Leading ala Jesus means just that … walking in front of someone and showing them the way … not bossing them around.”
This is an excellent point. Perhaps the reasons the members of these folks’ churches aren’t submissive is because their leaders aren’t submissive. “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.” Maybe these white male leaders don’t truly revere Christ enough to lead the way in submissiveness themselves. “A student is not above his teacher.”
Perhaps a few husbands need to learn to have enough reverence for Jesus to submit to their wives.
I’ll just put on my Middle Aged White Male Flamesuit now…
Thanks, Mark. It isn’t submission, per se. There is a call to service that sits at the center of Christianity. It is the call of one group to be submissive to another group (alone) that has opened the door to such tragedy. No wonder so many women are beaten, verbally abused, punished, depressed. (I know, HB, women are just a bunch of gripers.)
Hello, friends. I’m swamped right now (Heartbeat, ACU class, preaching, high school basketball), but I’ve followed. I just noticed there are 99 comments, so let me use the 100th one for this: obviously there are big issues that have surfaced. I’ve spoken to many of these issues before on this blog since it began in 2003. But never in a continuous thread. So I’ve mapped out about 15-20 posts that I hope to write. We can continue the discussion there.
I’m sure these posts won’t convince everyone. But they might give a better understanding of how people who are committed to scripture have come to such a different understanding. The easiest thing to say is that they’ve caved to society’s pressure. What’s hard to believe—though true—is that the change comes from a return to scripture and from an observation of what God is doing among us.