Ken Cukrowski — the Ministry of Women (ACU Lectures)
2010 October 5
66 Responses
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Sniffing out the work of God in the world…
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Anne,
), I think you’ll realize that there are bigger problems than just the oppression of women in the C of C. For example, the total neglect of the application of Acts 2:42-47, 1 Cor 5 and Heb. 3:13, truths that are crucial to a healthy church but are TOTALLY ignored in modern Christendom because they don’t FIT in our self driven culture. But there is much hope for those who are willing to look afresh at everything and consider for our master’s sake, what we can do to prepare the bride for His return. Maranatha!
Below is a link to a pdf that I think you will find very helpful since your question is much deeper that what I can answer here. The first chapter was written over 20 years ago in the midst of a community of believers made up of former C of C, former Catholic, former Pentecostal, former atheists, etc… we wanted, as much as is possible, to start over with a fresh perspective. I know some say that it is impossible. Well, we’ve given it our best shot to reconsider what a christian is, what a church is, what leadership in the church is… We committed to having no sacred cows, no prejudices of how we wanted scripture to read. The real and lasting answers to the “women’s role” question really cannot be implemented in much of the current expression of Sunday/Wednesday services, since no such services took place in the early Christian church. But the heart issues involved are fundamental as a starting place. If you choose to read at least the first chapter of this book (and I hope you do
http://www.tangentnet.com/Womens_Role.pdf
Thanks for the link Stephen. Whew that’s going to take awhile to read. I was just curious to what you were referring to since I don’t feel oppressed!
You don’t need to read the whole thing
but it is helpful to read the whole first chapter.
I’m glad you don’t feel oppressed. That could be because your gifts aren’t verbal in nature or simply that you’ve peacefully accepted, as a gift to Jesus, your beliefs about quietness. But there is no doubt that the traditional view held by the C of C completely misses the mark. Phillip’s FOUR prophetic daughters, women praying, Junia, Priscilla… you can be sure they ALL would have been squashed in a typical C of C environment. That is a crime against Jesus and them. The body of Christ needs their voices and their leadership.
Dear Mike, I wish you’d just post what you feel God calls you to post with the ability for people to comment turned off. It gives the crazies too much of a forum to spout their crazy all over the place. Let them get their own blog.
Stephen,
I find it interesting that you say that women can do anything a man can do…as long as she remains under a man’s authority. It seems that you are willing to acknowledge that the Scriptures that suggest a woman remain completely silent are strongly influenced by the culture at the time. Why, then, are you not willing to consider the inevitably strong influence of the culture on their concepts of authority? I hear you saying that we agree more than we might have thought…I just don’t understand why you are hanging on to the bits about authority. I’d be interested to hear!
Also, I want to be clear that I wouldn’t necessarily use the word “myth” in reference to the entire Old Testament – just those which fit the literary genre of “myth.” However, there is a great lack of historical evidence for some of the events recorded in the Old Testament. Again, that does rob these stories of their Truth, but it may mean we need to not read them like a history textbook and we might need to do a lot more digging to find out what that Truth is. My point is, you call this a “dismissive approach”…but, in my opinion, it is not that at all. It is rather an approach that attempts to honor Scripture and the various viewpoints represented within it and study it intently. It’s an attempt to take it seriously and better understand how the stories functioned then so that we can know how to read and understand them better today. While, of course, there are people who would use this as an excuse to dismiss the things they don’t like about the Bible, please remember not everyone takes it to that extreme. And any reading of the Bible can be a “doorway drug,” as you said…I’m not sure fear is a good reason to completely dismiss a different approach, as it seems you have done.
God tells Moses in Exodus 20 that He created the world in 6 days was God just perpetuating a myth?
And isn’t the Bible historical evidence? To say that there isn’t much historical evidence for some of the events in the Bible is saying that we can’t trust the evidence in the Bible unless it has been backed up by another source. Look at what has been happening in the news just recently. There have been many, many new species found in New Guinea and in the oceans that very learned authorities never knew existed.
@Stephen, I haven’t had much time to go through the entire 1st chapter, but have skimmed all of it and have skimmed through some of the book. I’ve yet to find where I’m oppressed yet. It disturbs me a bit though when I see every agenda today being attached to either slavery or civil rights and it seems to be used to only take the discussion out of the argument. It’s kind of like asking someone the old question “have you stopped beating your wife”? I may not be very verbal, but I asked all of these same questions of how do I use my gifts for God many years ago and finally came to the conclusion that it all boiled down to “seek and save the lost” and anyone can teach anyone how to find Jesus. And that God created me female because he had some plan for me as female.
I’m beginning to see though where I think you are coming from and am not convinced that you can make an argument that the early church did not assemble in some form or that is wrong to support men in preaching. I do agree with you on the headship area. I believe God created a certain order and that is my big beef with the feminism movement from the 70′s to now. From my perspective they have only damaged and tried to destroy that order.
Anne,
You are greatly mistaken if you think that I (we) are denying that the early church met together and that men should preach. I would never say that a gifted man should not preach. But God created women who are gifted to preach as well…and I have no clue why people want to shut them up, saying they are usurping the authority of the men around then. We need both voices to be heard in the assembly.
Laura
Laura, the comments about the assembly were directed to Stephen in response to the book he had referred me to. The first part of my answer was in response to your post on the use of the word myth.
My problem with women preaching to both men and women is the blurring of the line between male and female. If you argue that men an women can equally function in the church you must allow female elders as well and I see no scriptural basis for that. I then also have trouble reconciling that with Eph 5:23. That women have a gift to preach is not in dispute, but where that gift is used I disagree with nearly everyone that has posted and therefore I guess I’m one of those “crazies.”
Anne, I assure you that you are not alone. You might find the following website useful. It seeks to defend the complementarian point of view.
http://www.cbmw.org/
@lc, thanks for the website link. I’m glad to know I’m not the only one out there! I’m really disturbed about what feminism has not only done to society and now the church, but also to women in general.
Anne,
First of all, I would never call you – or anyone – a “crazy” for believing differently!! Although part of me wishes everyone would agree with me (don’t we all?), I believe that it is more important for us to all be open to respecting and hearing one another, being open to what God might be saying through our sister or brother. We must assume the best of others and trust they are truly striving to live in a way that is pleasing to God. I would hope you would assume that of me, and I must therefore assume that of you! So, I don’t think you’re crazy, we just hold different beliefs.
As for your response about “myth,” sorry I failed to respond sooner! You raise a valid question – is God perpetuating the “myth” in Exodus 20? Perhaps! But, again, I am not using the word “myth” in a negative way. In fact, the creation myth would be an orienting story, one that would remind the people exactly who they are following in the desert. Not only that, but you’re referencing the passage in the Ten Commandments where God instructs Israel to observe Sabbath. Genesis 1 (read either as a historical account or myth) depicts a God of order, a God of rhythm. So, in Exodus 20, God commands Israel to do the same – to order their lives so that they will have a restful day committed to the Lord. By referencing the creation story, God communicates to Israel using their common understanding of God – the one that had been passed down through the telling and re-telling of the creation myth. (After this, the story of the Exodus is the primary story that is retold and functions not only as a foundational, but also a formative story. My hunch is that the creation myths functioned in similar ways before the Exodus, although I have not done research be sure.) (I won’t go into the fact that this would also depend on when one believes the creation accounts to be written – pre- or post-Exodus. I won’t go into it mostly because, again, I haven’t studied that particular topic.
)
It seems to me that viewing the creation stories (and the flood story) as myths is an easy jump because 1) it’s a literary genre and 2) there were many other creation (and flood) stories circulating in the surrounding cultures. As I have said before, it is essential to remember that viewing it as “myth” does not rob it of Truth. In fact, I believe reading these stories as myth gives more accurate insight into how Israel heard and used the stories as well as their understanding of God. In my opinion, it is a much harder jump to conclude that more of the OT is “myth.” And, in fact, most days I would say that I believe the majority of the historical books of the OT is an author’s account of history (although, as we see SO obviously in Kings and Chronicles, it is influenced by the author’s perspective and intent). As you said, there are many things that scientists do not know…and probably will never know! And so I tend to fall on the more conservative side in that particular case. However, I still maintain that reading the majority of the OT as myth does not rob it of its importance not only in the formation of the people of Israel, but also in its revelation of God. Nor would those who hold this view categorically say the Bible cannot be trusted. In fact, it seems to me that we have done a disservice to the Bible by stripping it of its mystery and living power, by thinking that if we find out we have understood it incorrectly – even partially! – that we can’t trust it at all. In such a case, it seems we have far more trust in a book (or our understanding of a book) than we have in the God revealed in the book.
As for your concern about what feminism has done to the church, I would really like to encourage you to consider that this hasn’t become an “issue” solely because of feminism. It would be silly to deny that feminism has played a role, but it is just as silly to say that is the only factor. Women have felt excluded and unable to use their God-given gifts for YEARS…and I mean lots and lots of years. On the whole, it does not come from women who are just power hungry and who want to assert dominance, although there are occasional exceptions…just as there are occasionally men who act that way. It has also come from the conviction that the Church has not been what God intended it to be – an community that is an alternative to the outside world, a community in which people are considered wholly equal, a community in which all are encouraged to use their gifts to God’s glory. It has also come from the realization that we just may have been approaching Scripture in the wrong way – asking it to function in ways it was never intended to function and making it say things it was never meant to say. Obviously many, maybe most, women can fully exercise their gifts without getting behind a pulpit or holding the title “deacon” or “elder” or in whatever other “forbidden” way…but there are some women who simply can’t. Not only that, but this has often led to such ideas as women are less than men, only men are created in God’s images, women who have gifts are actually being tempted by Satan rather than gifted by God, and that women are sinful if they exercise these God-given gifts (to name only a few)! Perhaps you do not hold these beliefs, but I guarantee you some people do…and probably more people than I (or you?) would like to think! Anyway, this is getting really lengthy. I guess that was just my way of saying, please don’t reduce this to a result of feminism, for that only trivializes what it actually is.
Laura, sorry it’s taken me so long to answer, I’ve had some things come up and have not had much time to be online.
You said that to treat the story of creation as a myth does not rob it of its truth, but it does rob it of some truth or else it would not be called a myth. I do not know if you prescribe to this, but I know of other Christians who cannot believe that God created the world in 6 days. They cannot believe it because science and the world says that it isn’t so. That is why I put in one of my posts that our learned scholars are many times wrong, when you stated that some of the Old Testament events have not been substantiated. That to me is the essence of faith –believing in some that seems impossible when the world is saying otherwise. I see no reason to categorize the Bible’s version of creation as a myth since we have on record God telling Moses that he did indeed create the world in six days. Of course there are literary genres Bible, most notably the poems and prophecies, but I don’t see that evidence for the account of creation. And the fact that there were other creation stories circulating could also mean that other cultures were borrowing from the account of creation, since they did descend from Noah also would have had the same oral traditions handed down.
As to my feminism comment I have become increasingly alarmed at what is happening to our families and although feminism does not shoulder all of that blame, I believe that it has had a negative impact. No one stays home with their kids anymore. You may have seen that Barbara Billingsley, the woman who played the mother on “Leave it to Beaver”, recently died. I saw an interview with her the other night and she believed that the show was popular years later because people wished their own families were like that show. She also lamented the fact that mothers didn’t stay home with their kids anymore. Feminism from the early 70’s has told us that to stay home is to be unfulfilled or not important. I believe it is the most important job a woman can have. I know this is straying a bit from the topic, but I think it is somewhat related.
When I was younger I had many of the same questions and feelings that have been raised on this blog and in many other places. I struggled also to find my voice and I’m not totally there yet. In recent years in reflecting back and seeing our younger ladies coming up I wish that there had been some strong role models saying “be proud of being a woman.” I wish there had been more opportunities for older women to instruct us on how to be good wives and mothers. That is very anti-feminist. Now to say what better way for our young women to see good role models in serving God than to see these women preaching I do not agree. I believe that God created man and woman and He evidently created two different sexes for a reason. I have a role to play in this life and I finally came to realize that that didn’t mean that God loved me any less, quite the contrary. I don’t believe God created a genderless society and the passage of there is no male or female in Christ I do not think speaks to that, but rather that we all have the same gifts and blessings from God. I firmly believe that men should be the leaders in the home and in the church. And if I had seen an example in the Bible of a woman leader I might think differently. Priscilla and her husband taught the gospel, everyone can do that, but I didn’t see Jesus sending women out with the 70, I didn’t see a woman as one of the 12 apostles, when elders are mentioned it is obviously speaking of men. I just don’t see in scriptures females taking a leadership role in preaching and eldership.
Anne ,
Amen. You are absolutely right. Thank you for stating your convictions. There are many both female and male that agree with you.
Anne-
I know this topic is a bit of a dead horse, but I can tell you why most of the women I am friends with work outside of the home even with young children. It’s because inflation and price increases have outpaced wages. When I marry in January, we will literally not have enough money if I do not find at least a part-time job. This is not because my husband will not work hard enough or well enough. It’s because sometimes (often) you need to make more money to pay rent and buy groceries. This isn’t about having enough money to buy two new cars and an oversized house. It’s rent on a 2 bedroom, 800 square foot duplex and groceries and gas. I appreciate your thoughts. I just want you to know where so many of us are coming from. When we have children, I’ll likely still have to work, although probably part-time, so that we can pay bills and feed the kids.
Additionally, I fail to understand how you can call men out on a blog, but not read Scripture or pray in front of them in corporate worship. This is a true failure to understand on my part and not an attempt to be snarky or rude or trip you up.
I hope you have a great weekend. Please know that I’m not trying to be snarky. Really. I’m sorry if I came across that way.
Anne – as I stated before, you can be a feminist and still appreciate the traditional aspects of being a woman. You’re talking about extreme feminism. Just as crazy, ranting, doctor-killing abortion foes don’t represent the entire pro life movement, men-hating, self-hating and tradition-hating women do not make up the entire feminist movement.
I’m single – waiting on the right man, not anti-marriage/family or anything in case you’re wondering – and I like to know that I’m paid the same amount as a man for the work I’m required to do to pay my bills and survive.
Barbara Billingsley was herself a single mom who worked out of the home even if she appreciated women who did stay at home. In that same 1950s era, my grandmother was working out of the home because she had to make sure her kids got fed.
Also, as a woman who probably will never have children – again, not because I never wanted a family, but because that is the way God seems to have decided things for me – I like to think that there are additional purposes in life to having children. Being a mother is certainly a most honorable vocation, but for those of us not so fortunate, there have to be other worthy things to pursue in life. If not, what’s the point of me and others like me being here? I might as well jump off a building.