Women Called to Ministry in Churches of Christ
I’ve written and spoken often about the need for Churches of Christ to recognize, affirm, and use the gifts of women (along with men) in preaching, teaching, praying, etc. Perhaps some of you are tired of hearing about it from me.
But I am convinced that our prohibitions on women are a mark of the fall rather than a testimony to the good news of Jesus. It’s a failure to be faithful to the gospel-propelled trajectory of scripture.
Undoubtedly what we need is to hear from some of these women who feel called to ministry in Churches of Christ. I’m so thankful that we now have these poignant, insightful words from four young women who’ve come through the Graduate School of Theology at ACU.
Please, listen carefully to this podcast . . . share it with others . . . pass it along to leaders of your church.
I wish we could hear hundreds of other voices which could be added to these four!
It is time for those of us who have been lucky enough to have a voice to speak up. It’s time to take a chance. It’s time to teach and preach that God has gifted both sons and daughters. It’s time to listen to these honest, thoughtful young women — and many others just like them.
Geezer ,
Yes I have read the article you mentioned. Good thouhgts and observations. However , I do not read from a Campbell perspective and have never been driven by a command, example and necessary inference hermeneutic.
I know some have a real disdain for what they call a pattern hermeneutic but use it when they want to make a point but call it something else.
My reading is wide. I read from our church of Christ scholars ( however you define scholar ) but also from Stott , Boice , Loyd-Jones , Brueggeman, Healy, Grudem, Lenski, Carson , Olson , Calvin and Armenius, Horton , McGrath,Piper , Yancey , Bruce, Wells , Pelikan , De Young , McLaren , White , Barclay , Dawn , Miller , Willard and a whole host of other writers and thinkers and theologians. I only list this to tell you that I am open to thoughts from all over the place. My convictions come from reading and study and some conclusions drawn from several decades of study. Iam not bound by anyone and their hermeneutic .
Something I have been concerned about is the attack on doctrine. Doctrine is the teaching. And all of us have doctrinal convictions. And yes, as I have said very often, Jesus is the center of it all. And we need to understand what it means to be His disciple. But a disciple is a learner and a learner is not less Christ- like by studying doctrine.
Suppose ( and this I have asked before ) there was a meeting say in Abilene of all those who say they believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And suppose all those in the metting decide to form a new church. How would they worship ? What would be the basis of how they would worship? But let us say they decide to have a full instrumental service. What would be included as an instrument ?Then would there be weekly observance of the supper or monthly or quarterly ? or may be none at all. How would they be led ? One pastor leadership ? A plurality of leaders , both men and women? Or perhaps just free open and no one leads. Just spontaneous about everything. Or meetings where everyone is brought in to make any decisions or to discuss all shepherding concerns – everyone then is a shepherd And how would they decide ? But just for the sake of discussion they decide on men and women. Then how would they finance any money concerns- free will offerings, picnics , bingo , dances , carnivals , etc . ( I have found it interesting , in all the discussions about worship , no one seems to want to upset and change the contribution) . What would be the teaching on baptism ? For salvation or after you have been saved by faith alone ? What would be taught about the nature of Jesus ? What would be taught about compassion , morality , etc. ? Would this church decide to recognize same sex marraige and would abortion be considered just an individual concern ?Would doctrine be included in all of this ? And again , everyone believes Jesus is the Son of God.
Doubt anyone will reply. Just another viewpoint in the ongoing dsicussion. Geezer , thanks for the discussion .
Bam! A winner from beautiful Colorado Springs. Tell Lela I’ll never order a milk shake again thinking it’s a drink.
Ha! It’s a deal. But shouldn’t I be receiving some Rice-a-Roni or something?
@JTB
Thanks for giving me the insight into where you are coming from. Scriptures are written, in my opinion for all to read and for all to understand. As we study we gain further insight in God’s word because we understand them not only in context of what is written in that chapter and with the rest of the book but also what was written in other letters. After all it isn’t rocket science. God is not a God of confusion and in no way, I believe would inspire the apostles and prophets to write down anything that we have today in scripture to confuse us or lead us astray. That’s why the harmony of those scriptures is so important. Can we say that what we are doing is in harmony, not only with what is written but also the nature of God? If we find that a scripture contradicts another then we have discovered a lie. And if it is a lie then that would call into question everything written because the author ultimately is God.
You brother in Christ
Ray B. Thanks for the discussion. I appreciate that you took the time for it. It seems too often we dismiss one way of doing things for another w/o first understanding the basis for our change. It is still important to be biblical even when one has rejected the regulative principle and CENI. I do hope that folks will allow maximum freedom for female expression in the church just as they would want maximum opportunity for male expression, while still recognizing a distinction in gender roles.
Interesting that we have not seen more men upset about the lack of opportunity to preach the sermon in church when that opportunity is denied to many/most men in most of the congregations I have attended. Regrettably it is generally saved for the few on staff that fill those speaking roles.
Grace and peace,
Randall
Reading these posts causes two reactions:
1. Sadness for women in Churches of Christ. Not for all of them, of course. God bless every children’s class taught, every nursery kept, every cake baked. But those who have known God was calling them to other areas of ministry. For those daughters who grew up hearing only the voices of men praying and reading scripture and preaching.
2. Joyfulness to be out. I’m not better; I’m not even with better people. I just don’t have that sore being rubbed every time I go to church. I got weary of the kind of attitudes that have been expressed here by people who think they’re the only ones taking scripture seriously. I do truly feel sorry for them. What I found is that nothing can change that. THEY believe in scripture; THEY aren’t being selfish; THEY just want to do God’s will; THEY have read the story of strange fire; THEY don’t need to read other books because they have the Bible. My response: THEY can have it.
Erin, your words touch me. I understand. Wish there was a way to erase the hurt. Wish there was a way to erase all the hurt caused by the church.
As JTB points out, there are a ton of references to highly visible and contributing women in the letters from Paul and elsewhere, so to deny women their God-given spheres of functioning is to be oppressive.
But to the 4 women in the podcast, I honestly ask:
Are you truly only interested in being able to use your gifts and callings?
or
Are you hoping to eradicate any sense of male headship altogether?
Those are two radically different objectives. The first I believe is healthy and necessary. The second, I believe, is unhealthy.
Follow me for just a second: though I’m a male, I am still part of what scripture refers to as a feminine entity, Christ’s bride, the church. He is our head, our authority. If my will crosses His will, as a Christian, I must submit to His will, AS HE submitted to His Father’s will. That is divine order. Jesus does not command the Father. I do not command Jesus. I obey Jesus willingly, from the heart, even when I don’t want to. His ways cross my will frequently but I deny myself and follow him. That loving submission to Christ is at the very heart of what it mean to be His disciple. Amen?
For me to usurp His authority, to override His will with my own will, would be for the Bride (His Church) to usurp His headship in my life. Call it spiritual feminism. I have no right to be authoritative over Him. But the beauty is that He is no chauvinist. He loves me and nurtures me and cares for me. There is no fear of abuse because He would and did die for me.
I believe that same exact relationship is what defines man and woman, husband and wife (based on numerous scriptures, old and new). And if IN HER HEART a woman willingly submits to Jesus, what is so abhorrent about submitting to a man who wants to love her as Christ loves the church? Because there HAS BEEN abuse (and there has been ENORMOUS abuse) doesn’t mean God’s ways and order are wrong. Does it demean her to submit her will to a man any more than it demeans her to submit to Jesus. There is beauty in submission, not loss. Said another way, what do you lose by deferring final household authority to your husband?
Please notice again. I’m distinguishing between using gifts and serving Christ’s community VS. total discontinuation of any male headship. These are separate issues.
As it relates to a husband/wife relationship, I think the will of the husband, gently but ultimately, overrides the will of the wife, should there be a disagreement and assuming that the will of the husband is not violating the conscience of the wife. Her allegiance is first to Christ. This also assumes that the husband isn’t using said authority to “lord it over.” This is NOT about power. It is about leadership and responsibility. It isn’t so much that the man gets final say as much as it is that he is the one ultimately accountable. He gives his life for her. He protects and defends (which he was biologically built for). He authorizes her spheres of authority and leadership.
Is this still intolerable, even in theory? And if so, why? What Christian right is being violated in what I’ve described here?
We now attend a very large church of several thousand. My wife attends a Wednesday night study of several hundred. All the teaching, as well as the preaching of the gospel, is done by women in that particular setting. I suspect the same thing happens with smaller numbers in smaller congregations. Is the complaint about teaching and preaching that the women don’t get to address audiences of mixed gender?
Most of the adult bible studies I have been part of in the CofC (in years gone by) the women participated from the seats of the participants as much as the men. They taught, reproved etc by their questions and comments. Is the complaint that the women is not the one in front of the class?
Is anyone truly unable to exercise a gift that God has given them? Are there those fighting to serve God but unable to find the means to do it? Does our sovereign God give a gift and not the opportunity to exercise it as the Spirit leads? It seems many do believe this to be the case.
Geezer
This is a very tardy response, but have been overwhelmed by the huge numbers of people still discussing and in some ways, cussing this topic.
There are a couple of points in this discussion that bother me.
1-The expressed desire to teach,preach, protect the church of Christ as an entity, tribe or denomination …. of your choice.
2-On a personal level the ONLY thing I’m interested in when choosing a church home is how dedicated to Jesus and His teachings is this particular congregation? I’m not interested in the slightest what title the group has decided to put over the door. It truly is unimportant in God’s eyes, imho! What is important is are we learning God’s truth and are we dedicated to the Cross of Jesus and are our lives lived under the protection of that redemption and the hope in His resurrection. If these elements are missing, then that is not a congregation I could support nor attend.
A personal note. I have never wanted to preach. Teach a class whether all women or mixed genders? Somewhat but it’s not a driving force from my heart nor understanding of the scriptures.
The Bible is a constant source of amazement to me. To realize that the Almighty God, who is under NO obligation to do so, has chosen to grace us with a partial glimpse of who He is and what He hopes we will do for Him. That that outpouring of grace from Him should become a source of arguments and disagreements between His children really must bother Him, to say the least.
As a woman in His Church, my only desire is to be considered, by the congregations as an equal and partner with the men and other women of that particular church. If an occasion arises in which the local leaders find I can be of service in OPEN service to the congregation, I will do and have done so, which has caused an incredible humbling to fall over me. Imho, open service to the congregation is so humbling, it’s difficult to understand how one man/woman can stand before the whole church, Sunday after Sunday and be transparent – open to any and all interpretation of what they did or meant to say. Amazing.
I hang my equality hat on the apostle Paul who wrote [my translation ]
– Now, (repeat) now there is no male nor female, no bond nor free, no Jew nor Gentile – we are all ONE in Jesus. And in the historical God-given rank of inheritance I’m not only a co-heir with Jesus, but spiritually speaking, I am a son of God, ergo a co-heir with all other sons of God, adopted, all of us, into the family of the Almighty. As such, I have co-standing and possible authority in His church.
So guys, move over, make room for all your spiritual brothers that anatomically are your sisters, but again, spiritually are your brothers, ergo co-heirs in Jesus. Hallelujah and PTL!! \o/
(btw-please don’t ignore the parable of the talents by burying another’s spiritual gifts because you think that person has no right to that talent. I don’t think you want to be responsible before God by denying the exercise of a God-given talent to one of your spiritual brothers.)
One of my defects is being too to the point, but we really should have come to some sort of agreement on this subject. We really have tossed it around long enough. May it soon go the way of past disagreements – only a memory. God be praised!!!
Robert H,
How do you handle the different timelines between different gospels?
Or the different order of creation between Genesis 1 and 2?
The bible is not a puzzle book, where one piece doesn’t fit, the whole thing is ruined.
The bible is a collection of stories as part of the grand narrative of God. Some things contradict one another, and the church’s task is to read and participate in the story, communally, and decipher how the story plays out in their lives today.
Man Men comes to church:
I’m a little confused here. Are you agreeing with him or are you poking fun?
I think he is making fun, but Mike should be allowed to speak for himself. I do find in interesting that this Pastor preaches for a mega fundamentalist church in the Chicago area that most of us would considered as backwards as they get, but they still grow. I know some of you think Churches of Christ are pretty much fundamentalist, but I promise that we don’t hold a candle to these folks.
Thank you for sharing this beautiful…but heartwrenching podcast. I add my voice to the young women. I am 54 and grew up in a traditional Church of Christ family(my father an elder) and church and my voice echos that of these young women. I questioned and wondered all my life so many things I was taught and heard…but there was NO one to ask or talk to about how I felt. I just continued to do the same old same old.
My husband and I FINALLY left the Church I grew up in my entire life in 2007, after all our kids were raised and out of the house. I regret and am so sad I raised them in such a restrictive environment, even though I didn’t feel that way. Yes…that Chruch was loving and good, but not really what I believed in completely. We found a place (a Church) to connect with that embraces women participating more. When I did my first congregational prayer in 2008, I wept from the freedom and blessing that it was. I wept again that first Sunday I was a part of the Praise team and got to use my gift of singing to lead the congregation in worship. I now feel that my “head aligns with my heart” and I thank God for that. Unfortunatly it came so late in my life, but that is how it is and I will allow God to use me and the gifts I have for His service and calling.
Thank you again for sharing.
What a woman is allowed to do or not do during a 1 hour worship service every Sunday cannot be addressed Biblically when a 1 hour worship service every Sunday itself isn’t in the Bible. It just ain’t there folks. Any honest person who reads from Matthew to Revelation would not come up with the idea of Sunday services from 10am-11am. There is nothing close to it in the law of Moses or in ANYTHING the apostles wrote. NOTHING. This discussion is a square peg in a round hole. Services are a man made invention for convenience. The early believers were together DAILY. Part of that DAILY was meeting, but it wasn’t scheduled or regular. It was organic and flowed from their daily lives together. Until we get THAT solved (first in our hearts and not as a new program), the role of women will NEVER be solved in the current context because the relevant verses are of a context and an environment TOTALLY foreign to today’s practice. Something to consider for sure…
Mike, I don’t have the time (nor the inclination) to read the comments but I just wanted to say thanks for the post and the link. The time has come…
Well, all this head talk is just terrific for Christian females who have remained single. I twice had two search committees query me if the reason I was still single was because I might be a lesbian. After I retrieved my dropped jaw from the bowels of China I stood up and told them that so many godly single men at the Christian university, and later seminary, I had attended were fantasizing after Mother Teresa in Bo Derek’s body. My looks were not exactly the Trophy Wife Bible Barbie Doll they envisioned God leading into their special aura. They would hate my lack of genetic gifts drummed up in Creation’s Looks Department to detract from their godly messages to their congregants. I told the 2nd search committee that thought I had to be a lesbian to still be single and motherless at age 37 that I would have difficulty grasping their visions for familial bonds in the Kingdom of God, and promptly bid them goodbye.
I was taught all my life, which began in the Church of Christ that my greatest honour and aim was to serve the Lord. To honour God and to get to follow Christ was a natural path for me. Growing and travelling along that journey was extremely painful and you men will never understand that, As time wore on God never sent the right Earthly Head (Man) to govern my spiritual impulses or corral the gifts He developed in me. Too many heads and not enough room… He did eventually send the right godly fella along, but in His time, not mine or that of some search committee. Even outside the Churches of Christ there were a lot of weeds that popped through the cracks on the A-roads and I kept getting diverted onto more B-and-C-roads than many of my counterparts that were loaded with testosterone would be able to count.
There are some great old debates on this thread and I would dearly love to weigh in with some thoughts on a few scriptures, but I’ve got a choir rehearsal to get to…
Pax et bonum.
Indeed the Spirit has been poured out on all flesh! Thanks for the post!
Why do women break down, lose their composure and sob when they get upset and/or try to explain their frustrations. Perhaps this is one reason women are not permitted by God to preach to the church. Just a thought.
wow. speechless. for the love of all that is good and holy, dave, please, please tell me you are being ironic or sarcastic or something.
@dave – Why do men break down, lose their temper, yell/etc when they get upset and/or try to explain their frustrations? Perhaps this is one reason why men shouldn’t be preaching either. Just a thought.
Anne ,
You are not alone . There are many who have the same concerns you have. This is another attempt at the old, tired , tested and failed liberal theology .
I agree with McKnight that when you attach either egalatarian or complementarian to the gospel it gets distorted. The gospel is the gospel . It is Christ crucified , buried and raised . You cannot live the gospel . You cannot live a historical event unless you were invovlved in the event. Only Jesus lived the gospel.
@rachel @Tim – time/space didnt allow me to explain. Women tend to look at problems and challenges much different than men. This is NEITHER good nor bad. Just different! PERHAPS God had this in mind while he was doling out the the repsponsibilities. A huge problem I had with these wanna-be lady preachers is that they smeared the legacy of generations of servants (male and female) when they they referred to any service other than preaching as being “behind the scenes.” They obviously want the spotlight, glory and attention that Jesus warned about. Just a thought.
Oh. Well, seeing as you can read minds, I don’t see any need to continue this conversation.
@Rachel – I only quoted what they said. If you have a problem then take it up with them. I didnt have to read any minds to get the point. Hope I didnt make you cry.
Rachel, don’t feed the troll; it only makes them uglier.
@Q – So I’m a troll. Well this troll has been a Christian counselor for 19+ years so I have a pretty good insight on various issues. The female role in the church is no doubt very contentious at this time. I can assure you though that the politically correct environment in the US has warped very many well meaning Christians. I dont know if the four “wanna be preacher” ladies are reading this but I have a message for them. It may sound harsh but, GO AWAY. WE DO NOT NEED YOU AND WE DO NOT WANT YOU. THERE ARE OTHER TRIBES THAT WOULD WELCOME YOU IN THERE PRESENCE SO PLEASE SEEK THEM OUT.
It has been my experience that usually these types of women have some negative relationship with their fathers. They seek attention via compliments and accolades from a public standpoint to help compensate for the lack of approval they perceive their father failed in.
Scripture is plainy obvious – women and men have different roles and responsibilities. When we try to change this we fail miserably.
Is there such a thing as spiritual penis envy?
Dave??
Who are “WE” that do not want these women – who are demanding they LEAVE/GO AWAY??? You certainly do not speak for me nor for thousands of my co-heirs in the LORD. I’m wondering how many other “categories” of people you would apply this shouting? Would you, do you apply it to those that struggle with unwanted same-sex attraction …. to the unbathed that dare come into your pristine buildings …. to those that have an accent, making it difficult to understand them …. how many people do you want to just get rid of so you do not have to face them in a civilized, non slurring nor demeaning manner? I wonder how much in agreement you are with the “you can’t live the gospel” opinion which would, I suppose in your opinion, allow for such attacks? Just wondering.
@Kathy – Typical. Someone voices their opinion (which is overwhelmingly predominate in our fellowship) and just because you disagree with it, you stereotype/judge that we dont want to associate with ANY one or group that is different. If you would take off your radical feminist goggles for a second you might understand. I was simply stating that if these women feel “called to preach” in the church, then there are numerous other groups that not only would accept them but also welcome them- everybody’s happy! Plus, they will give you a free robe to wear while performing your duties.
Would someone tell me how you live the gospel ? You can believe it , obey and proclaim it but how do you live what Jesus has already accomplished by His death and crucifixion ?
Meant to say by His death and resurrection.
I don’t know if the four women in the podcast are reading this anymore either–and frankly I pray they’re not, but just in case:
You are loved. Welcomed. Needed. And there are many, many people grateful for your voices, your presence, your humility, and your service.
Thankfully, God will forgive the arrogant men to Lord it over women. But I continue to pray they will learn to love as Jesus loved.
That’s something we’re all trying to do.
Dave, when you invite people to leave church (which is a really bizarre usage of the word “invite”), I’d have to ask if you really understand what church is. If the church is the family of God, does it make sense to show the door to family members with which you disagree? Do you stop loving them because you don’t agree with them? Can you not sit down at the same table with them and enjoy dinner?
If you have a super-functional family where everyone gets along perfectly, I congratulate you, but it may be affecting the way you view God’s family, which is full of imperfect people and frayed relationships.
To these women, as well as to you and me, church is not simply a jacket to be removed and cast aside to go shopping for a new jacket. It is family. It is a treasure of relationships, no matter how imperfect, of people who should love each other without claiming ownership of the family and authority to usher people in and out at will. At the root of it, inviting people to leave carries that arrogance in the face of God’s unique authority to add or remove people from His family.
How dare you, brother?
I guess these blogs are similar to the church, it would be nice if we could all discuss in an mature adult manner without letting our emotions get the best of us. And that applies to both sides of the aisle. I don’t mind if someone disagrees with me (well of course I want them to agree with me), but maybe we should remember the golden rule. I won’t insult or belittle your argument and I’d appreciate it if others would do likewise.
Mmm. Shouting at folk to leave the church pretty much qualifies you as a troll there, davey.
@keith brenton and sarah- I would be very interested in knowing where YOUR “line” or “lines” are. For example, if a practicing, openly homosexual felt “called to preach” and even after your best efforts you could not convince him (or her) of the truth, would you still allow (or condone) this person to preach? I would like to think you would not but political correctness has a strange hypnotic power over some Christians. These wanna be preacher ladies are actually the arrogant ones. For one, they have said that any non-public service is “behind the scenes”. Secondly, they have a warped belief system in regards to God seeming to favor the male. Finally, instead of accusing people like myself of “arrogance” lets see just how humble these ladies actuallyare. Lets say for example that I attend a non-instrumental church of Christ. I want to use instruments in my worship. I know that the congregation I grew up in believes instruments are not authorized and probably sinful. Now, as a Christian what should be my attitude? Well if you believe Jesus, then I should not try to be divisive and say accusatory remarks about the church. If I feel so strongly about using instruments then I should find a church that uses them and make myself a part of them. The same is true for these ladies.
Dave, if Jesus had been interested in drawing lines among the people who love Him and proclaim His name, He could have come and done nothing else and we would have all been lost. Instead, Hismission was to seek and save the lost, and give His life as a ransom. He didn’t come to judge; but He will return to.
In this life, in this world, our mission is the same as His – and to leave the judging to Him.
When you say things like,
“A huge problem I had with these wanna-be lady preachers is that they smeared the legacy of generations of servants (male and female) when they they referred to any service other than preaching as being ‘behind the scenes.’ They obviously want the spotlight, glory and attention that Jesus warned about. Just a thought.”
… your words betray that you have judged them and their motives, which you could not possibly know. If a ma desires a preaching vocation, do you accuse him if wanting the spotlight, glory and attention?
Brother, that hints at a deeply mysoginistic streak that I hope is not in your character, because it is not present in the nature of Christ – who commissioned women to be the first bearers of the news of His resurrection and stayed an extra day in Samaria to share good news with those attracted to him by the testimony of the woman at the well.
Please reconsider.
(And there are plenty of venues to discuss the other issues you raise; they are not relevant to this post.)
Dave,
Using your analogy, if your are a member of a church that practices slavery — because it’s in the Bible and they can show you book, chapter and verse where it’s how you own slaves that God cares about, not if — do you look for a non-slave-owning church? Or do you try to move them to a clearer understanding of Scripture and free them from that error? Which is more God-honoring?
And that’s an example from the recent history of our brotherhood. And I believe this to be parallel to that in the way the Scripture is misapplied in the binding of God’s children.
@keith brenton- Thanks for the response. Now please answer the question I asked.
Keith – Aren’t you judiging Daves motives? The ball swings both ways, sir.
Q – Please don’t use cultural aspects that no longer exist to make a point. Slaves were a part of life in the New Testament . . . of course it was dealt with. To use your analogy, we’d better be holding our contributions until Paul comes to collect.
Dave – you are so right on! The attitudes of these ‘preacher ladies’ does appear to be arrogant – their actions speak so loud we can’t hear a word they’re saying. And, contrary to the popular we are commanded to estimate the behavior of those within the church . . .
Dave, your question is irrelevant to the issue at hand. (That’s why I didn’t respond to it at your blog.) You chose to judge based on motives you could not possibly know. I don’t know your motives, and I have no basis to judge you. I can pray for you, however, as I hope you will for me and for these four ladies and any other respondents here with whom you disagree.
Jackie H, are we commanded to estimate the behavior of those within the church based on hundreds of years of church tradition, or upon scripture? Upon the teachings of those vested and empowered by those traditions, or upon the very nature of Christ? Your dismissal of the analogy drawn by Q fails to recognize that the issue of slavery was resolved only in America a scant century ago, and under the freedom which accrues with the acceptance of Christ’s teachings. Though they changed society, a good portion of our society still suffers from the long-term ramifications of slavery. Women have not enjoyed the right to vote here for a full century yet. Are you certain that you want to be on the side of history which denies that in Christ there is no male, no female, no slave, no free?
@keith brenton- Keith, I hardly believe my question is “irrelevant to the issue at hand.” My question hits to the core of this discussion. Namely, if a tiny minority has a scriptural difference of opinion on a hot-button issue, do we (the majority) idly sit back and allow them to proceed because we dont want to “judge” them? And as a follow up, what should be the attitude/actions of someone who believes they are correct on an issue that 99% of the congregation disagrees with? Please respond.Thanks
Church is not a democracy, brother Dave. It’s not a question of percentages. If members of the body of Christ disagree, they should go to each other and resolve their differences. If they can’t, they may have to agree that their differences are of a disputable nature; matters of conscience (Romans 14) … so long as their differences are, in fact, not over explicit revelations of God’s nature and will in His Word and as taught/exemplified by Christ there.
That is a long way from taking a position that there are no disputable matters; that every given action is intrinsically right or wrong; from claiming exclusive, perfect interpretation of scripture and moral high ground and judging-then-condemning the motives of others based on that.
And as far as your proposed percentages go, Dave – I think we might both be shocked to know how inaccurate they are if more women did not feel so intimidated by a rigid interpretation and hundreds of years of church tradition that has largely succeeded in ignoring, minimizing, or outright contradicting Galatians 3:28.
You see, I could be wrong about this issue and still have confidence that the blood of Jesus Christ is sufficient to cover my ignorance. I trust God. But when I see a brother or sister judging another, based upon something which cannot be known but to God, I know that he/she is dangerously near the edge of the precipice where grace no longer catches the fallen … because arrogance has hidden sin from them and they cannot repent of it. Then I am compelled by His love to say something.
Keith, it is obvious that you prefer to deal with generalities, not specifics. You have yet to address my inquiries with any viable answer. I agree that there are some issues that are open for debate and I dont for a minute “look down” on those who see differently. My observations of these ladies are based on their OWN COMMENTS. If you need to listen to the recording again then please do.
I’m sorry if you didn’t like my answers, brother Dave. I didn’t agree with the way the questions were worded, which struck me as prejudicial – 99% to 1%, and so forth. So I answered to the best of my ability the closest question I could: What should brethren do when they disagree?
I drew my answers from principles Jesus shares in Matthew 5:23-24; 43-44; 7:1-5; 18:15-20; and that Paul wrote in Romans 14; Galatians 2:11-17; and, oh, several more. Most of them are not specific, and that’s why my answers may have seemed generic to you.
If there is some point in the recording in which any of these sisters confessed their motivations to be what you accuse, I certainly must have missed it. Otherwise, I do not see how you could know their motives or judge them based upon that knowledge. What I did hear was a yearning to share the gospel of Christ, to be considered as equal and not inferior in the partnership of sharing the gospel, and for an opportunity to share the gifts given them in order to satisfy the fire in their bones.
Is that be ignored or belittled? Would you say the same things you have said of them – if their words had come from the hearts and lips of men with these gifts who could not find a vocation in ministry? That, my brother is only one of many questions I have asked you, and you have not answered.
I’m sorry if you didn’t like my answers, brother Dave. I didn’t agree with the way the questions were worded, which struck me as prejudicial – 99% to 1%, and so forth. So I answered to the best of my ability the closest question I could: What should brethren do when they disagree?
I drew my answers from principles Jesus shares in Matthew 5:23-24; 43-44; 7:1-5; 18:15-20; and that Paul wrote in Romans 14; Galatians 2:11-17; and, oh, several more. Most of them are not specific, and that’s why my answers may have seemed generic to you.
If there is some point in the recording in which any of these sisters confessed their motivations to be what you accuse, I certainly must have missed it. Otherwise, I do not see how you could know their motives or judge them based upon that knowledge. What I did hear was a yearning to share the gospel of Christ, to be considered as equal and not inferior in the partnership of sharing the gospel, and for an opportunity to share the gifts given them in order to satisfy the fire in their bones.
Is that to be ignored or belittled? Would you say the same things you have said of them – if their words had come from the hearts and lips of men with these gifts who could not find a vocation in ministry? That, my brother is only one of many questions I have asked you, and you have not answered.