O Me of Little Faith
They sit in every congregation. They listen to all the confident language. They squirm. And they hide.
They (we) are those who love God, who believe (most of the time) in the story of Jesus, but who struggle with doubt. And they listen to those who narrate God’s divine moments almost as if it’s a foreign language. In some ways, that confident play-by-play makes them feel second class. “What’s wrong with me?”
I’m reading Jason Boyett’s O Me of Little Faith: True Confessions of a Spiritual Weakling
After describing his embarrassment as a twelve year old at how little he could lift in gym (just the barbell with no weights!), he writes:
“Now a couple of decades later, I wonder if that weakness transferred from the outside to the inside. Some days, when it comes to faith, I can’t bench press much more than the bar. I’m spiritually scrawny. I don’t measure up to the power-lifters in the weight room.
“When you live and work within the American Christian subculture — especially the less liturgical, more conservative, evangelical, megachurch sub-subculture — you hear a lot of people talking casually about the intimacy of their relationship with God. The way they tell it, they get frequent, distinct impressions from the Holy Spirit. They get personal promptings from Jesus. They get very specific answers to prayer and detailed directions about even the most trivial aspects of their lives.
“I’ve heard someone tell a friend, ‘I woke up in the middle of the night and thought of you, and it was definitely the Holy Spirit wanting me to pray for you right then and there.’ I’ve overheard a middle-aged woman say, ‘It was totally a God thing that my flight got cancelled, because I got to share my faith with the lady next to me. Talk about a divine appointment!’
“I’ve heard musicians credit God with having written their song lyrics. I’ve heard businessmen give God credit for finally coming through with the promotions for which they’d been praying. I know a few people who don’t hesitate to reveal that God told them to quit their jobs and go into full-time ministry.
“One Sunday I overheard someone give this breathless recap of a worship service: ‘The Lord totally showed up in church this morning. When we got to that key change in “Breathe,” you just knew God was moving.’
“You’ve heard this kind of talk too, maybe coming out of your own mouth. Please understand me: I’m not telling you — or them — to stop. I’m pretty sure most of those kinds of statements express a sincere and real faith in a personal God who is intimately involved in our lives. That people talk this way is not what bothers me.
“The problem is that I can’t describe my own faith that way. It doesn’t feel right. It makes me uncomfortable. When I’ma round people who do talk that way, it’s seventh grade all over again.”
At this point, I pause to remember Randy Harris saying, “I’m not upset at them. I’m just upset that I can’t get in on any of that.” Boyett is trying to be generous, but it’s clear that this whole “I’m plotting God’s course” language feels unattainable and foreign.
“But the God-whispering-in-my-ear thing doesn’t seem to happen for me. If I hear my conscience, I’m pretty sure that’s because I’m familiar enough with the teachings of Jesus that I feel guilty when I’ve failed in some way. If I wake up in the night, I’m more likely to believe it’s because my dog made a noise than to assume God wants me to pray for someone. (And why does God need me to pray for something so badly that he has to wake me up, anyway? Can’t he just wait until morning? Or, you know, answer the prayer without me? Am I a soulless twit to even ask?)
“If my flight gets canceled, perhaps it’s just the result of a backlog of delayed flights thanks to a major storm somewhere. I’m seriously hesitant to assume a master evangelistic plan behind flight delays, but many well-meaning Christians really do place so much value on a single soul that they have no problem believing that God whipped up a thunderstorm over the Dallas/Fort Worth airport, piled stress on airline employees, and inconvenienced hundreds of travelers for the purpose of engineering a conversation of eternal significance. My honest assessment of most ‘divine appointment’ language is that it is self-centered. Especially if your divinely appointed evangelism is at the expense of a bunch of other people who just want to get home in time to tuck in their kids. (Right: I’m a soulless twit.)”
But there’s more in this rant:
“If I feel an optimistic swell of ‘the Spirit’ during a specific song at church, maybe it’s just that music has a powerful pull on my emotion — a well-timed minor 7th tends to have that effect. Or maybe it’s the sound of hundreds of voices singing in unison that gives me chills. Is there any chance that I’ve been conditioned, in the subtle Pavlovian anticipation of what happens at church, to view this feeling as the presence of God — as God ‘showing up’? (Anyway, isn’t God omnipresent? Can an omnipresent deity ever really ‘show up’ anywhere?)”
Ok, enough.
If this quote is making you angry, then the book probably isn’t for you.
But if you’re smiling, nodding, and feeling like someone has recorded your most secret thoughts . . . if you have grown weary with play-by-play narrations of God’s healings and promptings and with language of “God put it on my heart” and “God showed up” . . . well, you might want to check it out.
Most of the time, I am right there with the faithful doubters. But I’ve experienced a couple of times in my life a divine nudge; a heads-up; a “Just be aware.”
I wish I could say that I would be comfortable with God’s constant intervention in my life and my consistent perception of it. But He has a tendency to say things like “Go preach to Pharaoh” and “Go preach to Ninevah” and “Go testify about me in Jerusalem and then Rome, bound hsnd and foot.”
This sounds like a book for me…thanks!
Thank-you, Thank-you. I am ashamed sometimes at how much I struggle with doubt, and these folks who seem to have a hotline to heaven really make me feel uncomfortable. I think some people get the best parking spots because God moves cars for them. I have learned to accept the mystery, and live with the doubt.
Just recently I’ve been hearing lots of people talk about God really showing up. I think that means they enjoyed the worship service that day. Their emotions were stirred. Nothing wrong with that. But doesn’t God “show up” when we feel dry or when worship did not stir us? I feel like a complete outsider when I hear that language.
I’ll be trying to track down a copy of this book at a local bookstore this morning.
Here’s a toxic formula: Add one part “God showed up” with one part Calvinism. Then you know exactly what God’s doing and no one can argue with you because you believe in the sovereignty of God.
I’ve been hearing about this book – I definitely need to check it out. Mike, have you read Rachel Held Evans’ book Evolving in Monkey Town? It’s another thoughtful reflection on doubt and faith – I found it thought-provoking and moving.
A small confession…I believe God can and will show up in life in some very unexpected ways…just 1) it will not be to make my personal life more comforting and satisfying to me but to call me into his life and mission; and 2) I struggle to see and hear God showing up because there are too many other voices drowing out God’s voice; and 3) sometimes in hindsight I learn that a voice I thought was God’s was really my own fleshly self-serving voice speaking which I labeled as the voice of God so that I would feel good about obeying that voice.
Grace and peace,
Rex
Hmmmm….was it just happenstance or God that lead me to open this website this morning and read this?? I confess to having all these feelings…..
I will confess that “people talk[ing] this way” does bother me. To me it demonstrates a terrible lack of epistemological humility. It smacks of intellectual laziness and of self-centeredness.
And I don’t usually reply critically to such talk because it seems to me that this is the entirety of these people’s spiritual lives. If they had to give it up, they wouldn’t have anything.
I understand at some level that lots of people (most?) simply cannot muster the curiosity or effort required for critical thinking that might lead to humility and rigor, but I don’t believe it: the lack of that kind of inner life is so foreign to me that I cannot imagine what it’s like.
So I spend a lot of my time resenting other people’s (especially Chrstians’) laziness and how that makes life hard for doubters and intellectuals. It’s one of the biggest problems in my life with the church.
Jeff W
I’ve just finished the “Turtles All the Way Down” chapter, and I’m starting to wonder of Boyett and I share the same brain.
Two things that really resonated with me. After acknowledging the sensibility of arguments for and against the existence of God, he concludes, “God is hard to prove. God is hard to disprove. The existence or nonexistence of God is unprovable.”
Later, comparing “spiritual heavyweights” explanations of mundane occurrences with his own, he writes:
“These super-believers are so full of God that there’s no room for doubt. They rarely ask questions, and when they do, the answers are not the findings of science. The answers are supernatural. The answers are usually the same: God.
God is rarely my go-to explanation. On the contrary, my life is so full of doubt that I can’t find room for God. Does that make me a bad Christian? Am I a bad Christian because I do ask hard questions? Am I a bad Christian because explaining every detail as “God at work in my life” seems like religious narcissism instead of profound faith?
I don’t know. I honestly don’t know.”
As a fellow doubter, I’d answer “no” to each of his questions.
Mike, thanks for talking about this today! I am constantly fighting my feelings about all of this. I am often angered and upset by comments made by others about how God made them have the best day ever….and so, God hates me on those days…is that how it works? or is trying to teach me something? or whatever? I just can’t wrap my brain around that and I don’t just feel left out…I feel angry.
Jason: NO! It doesn’t make you a bad Christian. It makes you an honest one. Please keep commenting as you work your way through the book. At places, I’ve wondered: Did I write this book under a nom de plume — and just forgot?
Mike, with the free time afforded me by summer vacation (I teach high school), I managed to finish the entire book this afternoon.
Having just finished the book, I haven’t had time to reflect on it enough to muster a thoughtful response to it yet, but I will say that Boyett managed to elicit some laughter, plenty of nods of assent, and a few tears. His life as a doubting Christian is very much my own.
These are but a few of the passages that hit home with me:
“When it comes to matters of faith, I find more in common ground among atheists and agnostics than I do with doubt-free Christians.”
“I am not an emotional person. I’m an introvert. So in a Christian subculture that equates emotion with the presence of God, I shouldn’t be surprised that I ‘experience’ God less than everyone else . . . I don’t experience God very much at all, and I think it’s because I’m hesitant to automatically equate an emotional high with the presence of the Almighty.”
“Apologetics can only take a person so far, and it hasn’t taken me far enough. For some people, intellect may be an exit off the doubter’s road. For me, it’s the center line that keeps me on it.”
“Knowledge leads to complications.”
“There are few things that turn me off more than people who speak with absolute certitude about complex issues (like eschatology or the Bible) or deep mysteries (like God or the saving work of Christ).”
“I’ve seen brief glimpses of God, bits of glory and slivers of grace, but never the big picture. This frustrates me because the our world needs the big picture. For all the happy talk about God’s blessing and favor on Christian TV, you don’t have to look very far to find a God who seems less available than we’d like . . .”
Hooray, hallelujah, huzzah. The tacit (and sometimes overtly spoken) pressure to conform to the pumped-up evangelical expectation described here is a predictable consequence of a massive confluence of interrelated influences, the same growth-oriented influences that give us numerical results at the expense of genuine Christian discipleship and community. We write CEO job descriptions and fill them perfectly, all the while hard-wiring this very phenomenon into the very structure of our churches.
Now THIS is the conversation we need.
qb
Thank you. Thank you.
I was so glad to leave my conservative, no-change-is-good-change church for a church that is more progressive, more open to change, more accepting of other Christians.
I now miss my old church.
The new church is, indeed, more open — at least about some things. The things that don’t matter to me: instrumental music (junior highish band that everyone thinks, probably because of our background, is great), lifted hands, etc.
But it leaves me cold. Cold from the fundamentalist teaching at all levels (clinging blindly to inerrancy), cold from the patriarchalism, cold from the “God showed up” mindset that seems deeply self-centered.
Mostly cold from the certainly.
So I hide. And listen to everyone enjoy their freedom. (I can’t write that without laughing sadly.)
Again, thank you for this post. It offers hope.
Can’t wait to read this! the logical part of my brain understands that as a child of God his spirit dwells in me. Knowing that doesn’t always translate how i am supposed to ‘feel’ or what i am supposed to do with that. Yet i am remembering a time when i was 5 years old. I was in my parents’ bedroom. Alone. I was talking to God. And I KNEW He was there with me. Perhaps if i could re-visit the “House at Pooh Corner” more often I could experience that awesome moment again…
Why describe this type of faith ‘doubt’ to begin with?
Little did Doubting Thomas realise the legacy of his witness would be so inexorably taken out of context for so many centuries or be used to launch so many book sales! Did Boyett grow up in America’s southern Bible Belt? That would perhaps explain things…
It is a type of genuine faith that neither requires the believer to wear on a shirt sleeve, demand it be screamed from the backside inscription on a T-shirt, or hyped on Twitter. Yet it is a type of faith that is both demonstrative and private at the same time. Both ‘types’ struggle and know the frailties of doubt. And both ‘types’ can be resolute in the power of undeniable belief.
Sometimes we tend to place a premium on style over substance, and judge believers according to the style their personality displays. Now THAT is what I call embarrassing. God’s gift of grace does not entitle me to anything the American Dream promises, but it does allow me to share with others in the Kingdom of heaven.
Faith is more a discipline of substance rather than an exhibition of styles. Isn’t it?
Please tell me this is an object lesson of I Corinthians 12. Some folks have different gifts. The gifts of many are obvious on this site. Why do you begrudge someone else’s?
I would not dream of presuming that everyone who hears the voice of God is lazy, non-thinking, or “lucky.” Nor would I presume that the people that don’t do not have faith. God speaks in ways that befit the person He is speaking to.
My experience is quite different. I tend toward the conservative side of life. Growing up a mystic in the Bible Belt means that you keep most of what you think you hear to yourself. I have plenty of doubts in various subjects. Who doesn’t? But when I hear God, it is not a touchy feely kind of thing. It is rarely affirmation.
Keith, in the first comment, said pretty much what I hear. Go place I don’t particularly want to go. Call people I am not overly fond of. Pray for people I would rather not get involved with.
What I have learned from this conversation is that it is not safe to say you have a heavenly word.
I’m thinking back to the faith of Mother Teresa–the vibrant, active, courageous faith. But it was a faith, we learned posthumously through her diary, that was dogged with doubt.
Tina, we do indeed have very different experiences. “It is not safe to say you have a heavenly word”? In my congregation, you almost have to fake having a heavenly word to be considered a real Christian. Deep, dark doubts? Now that isn’t safe.
And who do you think is begrudging anyone? Did you read the quoted text carefully? “Please understand me: I’m not telling you — or them — to stop. I’m pretty sure most of those kinds of statements express a sincere and real faith in a personal God who is intimately involved in our lives. That people talk this way is not what bothers me.” Do you really resent that some of us have found a lifeline in this post?
I don’t really even know how to bring this up, but Mike feel free to delete it if you feel it is a problem. When Josh Ross’ sister, Jenny, suffered and died I, like so many others, read the posts from CarePages. So many of the responses just troubled me. I didn’t know her, but I wanted her to live like she was a member of my family. I was hurt deeply when she died. Her recovery would be the thing to wipe out my doubts, but she died. I know I have no inkling of what her family has gone through, and this post is not about them, but about what so many people said in response to the family updates. So many people said things that seems to indicated that they had received a direct word from God that she would live. I think a study could be made of the hundreds of responses to her illness and death.
Lc,
I am one of those who has been through the loss of a child and I know that there needs to be some frank conversation about how Christians ought to respond to human suffering because there are too many well-intended remarks that are very troubling.
A couple of months ago I helped facilitate a discussion on how Christians should respond to human suffering with other Christians. Among that group was someone who had actually traveled to Haiti to serve those suffering from the earthquake, a person who had gone through divorce, a couple of people (including myself) who had lost children, and even a woman who had survived being kidnapped and raped by a stranger when she was younger. I wish I could have taped the discussion so that other Christians could hear what people who have been through catastrophic suffering were actually saying.
Any ways, I just thought I would share that with you.
Grace and peace,
Rex
Thanks so much for this helpful thread. Thanks, Tina, for that other perspective. And you’re right: true mystics have not had an easy time historically, either.
I have a close friend who is passionate about spiritual formation, spiritual disciples, spiritual retreats, etc. He says that just one time in his fiftysomething years he has received what he considered a heavenly word (or impression) — even after constant devotion to silence, prayer, fasting and spiritual focus.
That’s just about like Keith’s experience — a couple times with a divine nudge. (Thanks, Keith, for the wonderful image.)
Of course, this kind of experience is quite different from the “God put this on my heart,” “God delayed my flight so I could have this conversation,” “God really showed up today” language that people are reacting to.
I’m wondering, Tina, how similar your experience as a mystic may be to that of doubters. And I’m wondering how many of the people whom we’ve thought of historically as mystics also battled the cobwebs of doubt. Again, thanks for this perspective.
Deb – Reminds me of Frederick Buechner’s wonderful quote: “Doubts are the ants in the pants of faith.”
Mike and company:
As an on and off doubter for years, and one who can become analytical to the point of spiritual paralysis, one thing that has really helped me is to realize that my relationship with the Lord is not just a mind thing but a matter of the heart.
This quote from Jesus comes to mind (and heart!) : “Except you become like this little child, you can never enter the kingdom of God,”
My mind too often can get in the way of my heart. And it’s with the heart and by faith we come to God through Christ, and continue to come to Him.
This quote from John Arnott helps articulate what I’m trying to say:
“We will never find God with our minds, only with our hearts, because at the center of God’s interaction with mankind is a divine romance. Our relationship with God is a matter of the heart.
“God has always and will continue to do things that we will never fully comprehend or understand. But, if we go to Him in humility and ask Him to show us what is going on, He will give us revelation. I am not dismissing the use of our minds altogether, because the mind of man has its place, but it should never be our primary method of seeking God.”
Seeking with you more of that divine romance,
Jim
It seems to me that the times of struggle, hardship and doubt are the very times when I do encounter and hear from God. The exciting part to me is the fact that God’s Spirit can’t be figured out by my own amount of study or by my own ability to understand. Isn’t it great to know that God works in mysterious ways and He can’t be fully understood. We can see the effect of the wind but not the wind itself. His Spirit is real….I’m glad that I can’t check it off like I sometimes do with other parts of my spiritual walk…
RE: Panera – no, it makes you a guy who loves free wireless. qb
Free wireless, honey walnut cream cheese, and all-you-can-drink Diet Pepsi for breakfast. That’s the magical combination.
Is all doubt bad?
Now Tina has me wondering: If God apportions gifts as He wills – even the gift of faith (1 Corinthians 12:9; Ephesians 2:8) – is it possible that He also gives some of us the gift of doubt? Even if it’s just for a while, once in a while?
Doubt sends me deeper into the Word; deeper into prayer and supplication; deeper into a desire for the Spirit’s discernment. Doubt makes me re-examine what I believe and why.
It’s not that things come easier to people who have a gift of faith; but that they’re given what God needs them to have to make His will work better in His kingdom. Maybe He needs people who have His gift of doubt as well …?
Could the gift of doubt be behind Paul’s instruction in 1 Thessalonians 5:21 (“Test everything. Hold on to the good.”)?
(And if anyone’s curious, I’ve written about those two incidents that still impress me as a “divine nudge:” http://keithbrenton.com/2006/07/11/stop-a-head/ and http://keithbrenton.com/2005/11/05/thank-you-for-my-wife/ . They might not have been nudges at all. Anyone who hasn’t experienced something like them could explain them away easily. But all these years later, I still look back on them with more questions than answers.)
Mike and group,
Loved this thread. It is the reason that Twitter and blogs connect so well with all of us scattered all over the world.
Who said, “There exists more faith in honest doubt than half the creeds.”
LDW
Doubts? Strangely enough, they come most often about prayer. Why does God need us to pray? How could it possibly help? Since God searches my heart, why do I have to verbalize it?
The thing I pray most often is, “Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief.”
And yet, prayer is integral to my life so I continue.
I downloaded the book to my Kindle the day I read Mike’s post and am reading it daily. I am about half way through. I find myself nodding and saying. “yes!” every few pages (clicks on the Kindle). However, I think the author is making a case that there might be more of us (doubters) than there are of them (absolutely-certains). I have heard people thank God for their finding a good parking place at a mall–the Creator of the Universe concerning himself with our convenience? I see athletes pointing to the sky after they score a touchdown, and I think–Yes, God is a Cowboys fan, but really?” He made a touchdown happen? The Creator of the Universe? I think God is about more than being my self-esteem supporter. So, when I hear people say things like “God has put it my heart to…..” my response is “yeah, right.” That is, if there really is a God and if He really cares, and if He has a special message for me alone, then why is he not speaking to me. and helping me find better parking spaces (and keeping idiots from backing into me.)
What supports my doubts is why God does often does not show up–to save Josh Ross’s sister Jenny, for example. Too busy helping out with mall parking? It seems like neither position is rational–he talks to use constantly or he can and chooses not to.
I find faith a struggle, but am willing to choose belief over doubt because of Jesus. His life and teachings are a reason to try to live like he would want me to.
Thanks for the recommendation, Mike.
Linda, the death of a college friend of mine a few years ago (he died of cancer when his first-born son was just a few months old) despite fervent prayer on my part and many more people I consider far more righteous than I brought latent doubts I’d had for some time to the forefront of my thinking and left me in the throws of the darkest time I’ve ever had spiritually speaking. In some ways I’m still in that place.
I seldom pray for anyone’s health anymore. I see little point other than perhaps it comforts the one who is sick. I prayed very little about anything for quite a while following my friend’s death, though recently I’ve begun to slowly adopt Boyett’s approach of praying liturgies.
Even if I didn’t grapple with doubt, I think I’d still have a difficult time swallowing what strikes me as a sugar-coating of genuine pain by some Christians. One time in a Sunday evening small group, a member of our group told us about a preacher he knew who had routinely visited a young woman dying of cancer. At one point the preacher asked the woman, “Do you believe God can heal you?” “I guess,” she replied. The preacher responded, “But even if he doesn’t, remember something even better awaits you!” The man telling us the story was quite enthusiastic as he relayed it to us. After few seconds of silence, I said, “If I’d been that woman, I would’ve mustered all the strength I had and punched the preacher in the face.”
+1, Jason and Linda. I am haunted by how close this is to deism, but it is what it is. It’s also quite a retreat from the dominant, “not a sparrow falls” school of thought on God’s active involvement in human affairs.
I say “dominant,” but perhaps it’s only “publicly dominant” or “apparently dominant.” I have to think more people are in this place than have the guts to let on. Not because of a sinister cowardice, but simply out of fear that other Christians will think less of them. The dominant agenda in many churches is this unseemly, faux confidence masquerading as childlike faith; and to admit a dissident position or piont of view is to be labeled an infidel by those with a vested interest in the publicly dominant agenda.
This whole area is where Brueggemann really shines. Prof. Beck’s recent post has a wonderful Brueggemannism on the vanishing role of lament in the church. See:
http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2010/07/psychology-of-christianity-part-5.html
qb
I finished the book last night and the message is to just keep on following Jesus and realize that faith means not knowing, but trusting.
One thing that he wrote that I responded to because I have the same reaction even though I never admit it. Reading the Old Testament is not faith building to me. It either sounds like mythology or is so violent and cruel with multiple episodes of genocide that I am totally repelled.
The author’s suggestion —focus on the sermon on the mount and try to live it out every day–seems valid.
And praying from books like the Book of Common Prayer is something I am trying too.
This. Is. Me.
Wow.
I, too, have a problem when people say, “God told me…” etc. Several years ago someone made a decision that hurt several people, and later in defending the decision this person said, “I was on my home from Bible study and God just spoke to me and said….” It was all I could do to keep from asking if the thought ever occurred that it might have been Satan speaking.
I don’t have doubts about my faith…I believe without hesitation…but I find myself praying for God to help my unbelief…the times when I question “why” or struggle to believe He has really forgiven me…totally and completely.
We each must find language to express our exprience. Some find faith narratives fit their experiecne better while others find doubt narratives fit better. What concerns me in either case is a lazy adoption of someone else’s (or some other group’s) narrative without making any genuine contribution to the narrative. Neither seems to have really related/wrestled with God all that much.
The other concern I have is making two camps out of this – faith camp and doubt camp. Were we all honest and courageous enough to narrate our faith and doubt, we would find so much faith diversity. Honesty will expose the shallowness of dichotomous thinking and categorizing and free us to better hear the many stories.
Mike, There’s a song by Nickle Creek called “Doubting Thomas”. I listen to it quite often. The last line of the song says: ” I’m a doubting Thomas, I’ll take your promise cause I know nothing’s safe o me of little faith.” I feel that way – all I have left is just His promise and so I will take that. It’s not always reasonable or intellectual. But sometimes it’s all we have.
Saw the study guide for I Tim.2:8-15 on your Twitter feed—or whatever it’s called. Thank you.
Linda wrote: “Reading the Old Testament is not faith building to me. It either sounds like mythology or is so violent and cruel with multiple episodes of genocide that I am totally repelled.
The author’s suggestion —focus on the sermon on the mount and try to live it out every day–seems valid.”
Linda, the God who ordered the annihilation of the Canaanites is no different than Jesus. The Triune God doesn’t have multiple personalities. Perhaps those who reject the Old Testament really don’t like Jesus after all. After all, as Jesus said, it is the words of Moses that testify about Him (John 5:39).
The author’s suggestion is mind numbingly legalistic. The Sermon on the Mount doesn’t save us. Jesus, the Jesus who was at the Father’s side before creation and at the invasion of Jericho, saves us.
I have noticed a lot of finger pointing in this thread. Instead, why don’t we reflect on our own hearts, confess of the darkness that remains, and live in transformation. This is a battle for me; yet it is fought by grace.
Grace -
Jr
Is all doubt bad?
Now Tina has me wondering: If God apportions gifts as He wills – even the gift of faith (1 Corinthians 12:9; Ephesians 2:8) – is it possible that He also gives some of us the gift of doubt? Even if it’s just for a while, once in a while?
Doubt sends me deeper into the Word; deeper into prayer and supplication; deeper into a desire for the Spirit’s discernment. Doubt makes me re-examine what I believe and why.
It’s not that things come easier to people who have a gift of faith; but that they’re given what God needs them to have to make His will work better in His kingdom. Maybe He needs people who have His gift of doubt as well …?
Could the gift of doubt be behind Paul’s instruction in 1 Thessalonians 5:21 (”Test everything. Hold on to the good.”)?
Jr, I think it’s safe to say Linda isn’t the first person to recognize a dichotomy between some of the actions attributed to God in the OT and the teachings of Jesus in the NT. To simply dismiss the matter by invoking the trinity (a debatable mystery) and then suggesting someone taken aback by purportedly God-ordained slaughterings of groups of people doesn’t like Jesus strikes me as little more than proof-texting with a few dashes of unfounded spiritual browbeating for good measure.
As for Boyett, have you taken the time to read what he says concerning the Sermon on the Mount? His approach is in no way legalistic. One of his main themes in the book is that doubt shouldn’t lead to spiritual paralysis. He turns to the Sermon on the Mount not as a salvation to-do list, but as the central guide to live a life of active faith despite his doubts.
It is hard to reconcile the God who ordered genocide with the God who said to love your enemies. I guess that is why it is easy to love Jesus.
Jason: First, as to the book. I was working from Linda’s conclusion that she drew with the context of the whole of her comment, not with the context of the book. It seemed like a big leap outside of the context of doubt; which I admittedly overlooked when reading. For that, I confess over-extension of the comment to the book out of context.
I would never propose that anybody was the first to see a so-called dichotomy. In my case, I have doubts about there being a dichotomy. Hope that counts and is just as legitimate in the discussion.
To your other point, I don’t believe that one even needs to invoke the Trinity to come to some conclusions. So I will leave that term out of it completely and ask the following questions: Was Jesus with God from before the creation of the world? Does Jesus ever, in His words, dismiss/disagree/rebuke the thoughts about YHWH in the Hebrew Scriptures? Does Jesus ever distance Himself from YHWH; or does He repeatedly discuss His union with YHWH? Does Jesus not say that the Torah (Moses) testify about Him?
So forget the Trinity, if you want, and let us look at the text of Jesus’ own life and words. These are tough questions and I do not propose easily acceptable answers. I am not in the business of brow-beating (that is not my spirit here) but I am in discovery myself. I don’t have it all figured out and the questions I asked above are questions I have asked myself while in study of the Word.
When I referred to my (and our) heart(s) (and this is a cause for a bit of introspection), is it as easy for us to recognize a palatable historical Jesus made in our own image when we see one? I only hope that I seek the Scriptures (all of them), even through my doubts, and prayerfully ask God to open my eyes and ears to Him and His purposes. What more can I do?
Grace to you-
Jr
Jr, I apologize for responding with the tone I did.
I agree with what you say regarding Christ never distancing himself from God the Father in the NT. Nonetheless, I still have a hard time believing that the OT writers didn’t perhaps give some of Israel’s national actions (ie. genocide) God’s seal of approval based on them being God’s chosen people. Certainly Christ’s disciples yearned for a Messiah that would reestablish Israel as a powerful nation, which would’ve entailed plenty of Romans having to take a sword in the gut. But Christ had no ideas of the sort. Instead, he declares that the entire law is summed up in the commandments to love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, mind, strength, and soul, and to love your neighbor as yourself.
“Be merciful to those who doubt” (Jude 22).
Oh, that’s just selective proof-texting. Everybody knows that Jude is all about contending for the faith once received. Context and tone require that verse 22 is a later addition by an editor who was embarrassed by Jude’s winsome stridency about women’s roles, the KJV, inspiration, pitch pipes, Baptists, kitchens, Sunday School, and cooperative benevolence campaigns, all of which are clearly implicit in the text. But mercy to the doubters? Yagottabekiddin’me.
bq
@JR
“Does Jesus rebuke the thoughts of God”
You have heard it said… but I say to you
Maybe not rebuke…. but certainly clarify.
We must read all scripture through the lense of Jesus. If he is God incarnate, then all prior actions attributed to God, must be judged according to the life and words and death and resurrection of Jesus.
I’m with Jason in that its entirely possible that some of the OT stuff was the Jews feelings of chosen-ness and importance from being God’s people leading them to do pretty horrible stuff to the “other”. In fact, that seems to be a major theme of why God sent them into exile, and again, Jesus’s criticism of how they understood Torah and the OT narrative.
Well – the Jews were the “chosen”. Remeber, those nations being obliterated were direct enemies, haters, and unbelievers of God. Therefore, I see the OT acts as the view that God has of His chosen vs. those that despise Him. This view has not changed, BUT the coming of Jesus established that we ALL are deemed to be chosen. In reading Revelation, you see that obliteration once again will befall those who are direct enemies, haters, and unbelievers, but God’s infinite love is now extended to the absolute last minute in a plea for ALL to turn to Him.