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	<title>Comments on: The Bait and Switch of Contemporary Christianity</title>
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	<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/11/06/the-bait-and-switch-of-contemporary-christianity</link>
	<description>Sniffing out the work of God in the world...</description>
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		<title>By: Stop &#8220;working on your relationship with God&#8221; &#171; Wyatt&#8217;s World</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/11/06/the-bait-and-switch-of-contemporary-christianity/comment-page-1#comment-81869</link>
		<dc:creator>Stop &#8220;working on your relationship with God&#8221; &#171; Wyatt&#8217;s World</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:42:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2379#comment-81869</guid>
		<description>[...] of them.  Excerpts from an article by Richard Beck - good thoughts I think. Found the link at Mike Cope&#8217;s blog. Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)John Piper on MoneyHappy Valentines DayThe Power [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of them.  Excerpts from an article by Richard Beck - good thoughts I think. Found the link at Mike Cope&#8217;s blog. Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)John Piper on MoneyHappy Valentines DayThe Power [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/11/06/the-bait-and-switch-of-contemporary-christianity/comment-page-1#comment-81852</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:43:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2379#comment-81852</guid>
		<description>Have witnessed the kind of restaurant behavior discussed in this blog on many occasions.  Have had friends who were servers confirm the prevalence of such behavior. It&#039;s real.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have witnessed the kind of restaurant behavior discussed in this blog on many occasions.  Have had friends who were servers confirm the prevalence of such behavior. It&#8217;s real.</p>
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		<title>By: The Drake</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/11/06/the-bait-and-switch-of-contemporary-christianity/comment-page-1#comment-81833</link>
		<dc:creator>The Drake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 03:07:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2379#comment-81833</guid>
		<description>&quot;He left off being a follower of Obama as an acceptable alternative. The moral indignation of the religious right is matched in intensity only by the self righteous arrogance of the Christian left.&quot;

+1, brother.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;He left off being a follower of Obama as an acceptable alternative. The moral indignation of the religious right is matched in intensity only by the self righteous arrogance of the Christian left.&#8221;</p>
<p>+1, brother.</p>
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		<title>By: Jenny</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/11/06/the-bait-and-switch-of-contemporary-christianity/comment-page-1#comment-81792</link>
		<dc:creator>Jenny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:09:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2379#comment-81792</guid>
		<description>To Ken....thank you so much for your original post.  I share the same thoughts as you and would&#039;ve posted them had you not already done so.  I am frustrated by the sweeping and unsubstantiated comments in this post, and confused by this fixation with bashing the Body.   Do we seriously expect to not see hypocritical Christian behavior?  We&#039;re plain old people who are imitating a perfect Savior.  It&#039;s by His grace alone that we don&#039;t stumble around embarrassing Him more than we do!  Our failings, however, do not mean that all of Christendom has lost its way.

I have heard various versions of the restaurant scenario my entire life and cannot ever remember observing it firsthand.  On the contrary, I have more often seen the Christians I know be kind and generous and Christ-like in the face of unkindness.  Sure, there are exceptions, but once again, isn&#039;t that to be expected?  Isn&#039;t it possible that we hear these stories because we are striving toward a higher calling, as most of our society is aware, and are therefore held to a higher expectation?  We are surely under more scrutiny when it comes to our behavior--let&#039;s hold each other accountable, certainly, but as a family, let&#039;s also make sure the world knows that we LOVE each other and are not ashamed of each other, faults and all.

I think it&#039;s time to come to terms with the reality that we WILL see Christians acting unChristianly occasionally.  We shouldn&#039;t excuse it, but we shouldn&#039;t wallow in it, either.  We all, like Paul, can say that we do not do the things we wish to do.  

P.S.  I didn&#039;t meant to begin ranting, but I&#039;m also so frustrated by the Republican comments.  And the homeschooling stuff.  And several other examples from the list above....what makes a Christian Democrat who sends their child to public school and looks with derision at the Christian Republican who homeschools his or her children any different than the Republican who looks down on the Democrat?  Really?  This is what divides us?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Ken&#8230;.thank you so much for your original post.  I share the same thoughts as you and would&#8217;ve posted them had you not already done so.  I am frustrated by the sweeping and unsubstantiated comments in this post, and confused by this fixation with bashing the Body.   Do we seriously expect to not see hypocritical Christian behavior?  We&#8217;re plain old people who are imitating a perfect Savior.  It&#8217;s by His grace alone that we don&#8217;t stumble around embarrassing Him more than we do!  Our failings, however, do not mean that all of Christendom has lost its way.</p>
<p>I have heard various versions of the restaurant scenario my entire life and cannot ever remember observing it firsthand.  On the contrary, I have more often seen the Christians I know be kind and generous and Christ-like in the face of unkindness.  Sure, there are exceptions, but once again, isn&#8217;t that to be expected?  Isn&#8217;t it possible that we hear these stories because we are striving toward a higher calling, as most of our society is aware, and are therefore held to a higher expectation?  We are surely under more scrutiny when it comes to our behavior&#8211;let&#8217;s hold each other accountable, certainly, but as a family, let&#8217;s also make sure the world knows that we LOVE each other and are not ashamed of each other, faults and all.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s time to come to terms with the reality that we WILL see Christians acting unChristianly occasionally.  We shouldn&#8217;t excuse it, but we shouldn&#8217;t wallow in it, either.  We all, like Paul, can say that we do not do the things we wish to do.  </p>
<p>P.S.  I didn&#8217;t meant to begin ranting, but I&#8217;m also so frustrated by the Republican comments.  And the homeschooling stuff.  And several other examples from the list above&#8230;.what makes a Christian Democrat who sends their child to public school and looks with derision at the Christian Republican who homeschools his or her children any different than the Republican who looks down on the Democrat?  Really?  This is what divides us?</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Hines</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/11/06/the-bait-and-switch-of-contemporary-christianity/comment-page-1#comment-81789</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Hines</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 14:00:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2379#comment-81789</guid>
		<description>Thank you for these thoughtful responses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for these thoughtful responses.</p>
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		<title>By: jw</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/11/06/the-bait-and-switch-of-contemporary-christianity/comment-page-1#comment-81755</link>
		<dc:creator>jw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 03:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2379#comment-81755</guid>
		<description>Ken - 

To quote a line from one of the vices mentioned in Richard&#039;s post, &quot;[He] regarded him as a servant unworthy of much interest or notice. Indifference and neglect often do much more damage than outright dislike.&quot;

I don&#039;t think it&#039;s the overt actions of church-goers on Sundays at lunch, as much as their general tendency to view the person bringing them food as being somehow less than an equal - unworthy of much interest or notice - that really speaks to the waiters and waitresses. If I may, do you happen know the name of your server at lunch this past Sunday? Being entirely confessional, if it hadn&#039;t been for the fact that my server had an unusual name, I probably wouldn&#039;t have ever remembered.

I will never forget an encounter a couple of years ago after I&#039;d photographed a wedding and was at a restaurant in &quot;plain clothes&quot; for a brunch the next morning. We started talking to our waitress about the area, her job, what she was planning on doing, etc. We started talking about Sundays, and she mentioned that she wished she could have been off every Sunday. I asked why, and her response was so striking I had to write it down.  The card stays on my desk as a reminder even today: &quot;Sundays are the hardest day of the week - the church crowd, you know. They&#039;re the biggest bunch of hypocrites you&#039;ll ever meet. ... But they prayed about it this morning.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken &#8211; </p>
<p>To quote a line from one of the vices mentioned in Richard&#8217;s post, &#8220;[He] regarded him as a servant unworthy of much interest or notice. Indifference and neglect often do much more damage than outright dislike.&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s the overt actions of church-goers on Sundays at lunch, as much as their general tendency to view the person bringing them food as being somehow less than an equal &#8211; unworthy of much interest or notice &#8211; that really speaks to the waiters and waitresses. If I may, do you happen know the name of your server at lunch this past Sunday? Being entirely confessional, if it hadn&#8217;t been for the fact that my server had an unusual name, I probably wouldn&#8217;t have ever remembered.</p>
<p>I will never forget an encounter a couple of years ago after I&#8217;d photographed a wedding and was at a restaurant in &#8220;plain clothes&#8221; for a brunch the next morning. We started talking to our waitress about the area, her job, what she was planning on doing, etc. We started talking about Sundays, and she mentioned that she wished she could have been off every Sunday. I asked why, and her response was so striking I had to write it down.  The card stays on my desk as a reminder even today: &#8220;Sundays are the hardest day of the week &#8211; the church crowd, you know. They&#8217;re the biggest bunch of hypocrites you&#8217;ll ever meet. &#8230; But they prayed about it this morning.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/11/06/the-bait-and-switch-of-contemporary-christianity/comment-page-1#comment-81752</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 22:43:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2379#comment-81752</guid>
		<description>Ken there is a lot of behavior I&#039;ve never witnessed outight... That does not mean it&#039;s not prevelant.

Have you waited tables recently?

I&#039;ll never forget 5 minutes before I was getting cut on a sunday night at cracker barell, a party of 13 in suits and long dresses from the uber fundamentalist baptist congregation in Murfreesboro (the one that parks the hell and flame buss around town to advertise their church) showed up and so I had to stay an extra hour. I wasn&#039;t happy about it but decided I&#039;d be extra friendly since they were the only people I was serving and I could offer that personal service.

We chatted, talk about church (on a fairly superficial level of course I had no desire to argue) they invited me to visit... They left me an 5 percent tip and a tract for their church. This wasn&#039;t out of the ordinary but just one of the more memorable situations. Changed how I tipped from that point on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken there is a lot of behavior I&#8217;ve never witnessed outight&#8230; That does not mean it&#8217;s not prevelant.</p>
<p>Have you waited tables recently?</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll never forget 5 minutes before I was getting cut on a sunday night at cracker barell, a party of 13 in suits and long dresses from the uber fundamentalist baptist congregation in Murfreesboro (the one that parks the hell and flame buss around town to advertise their church) showed up and so I had to stay an extra hour. I wasn&#8217;t happy about it but decided I&#8217;d be extra friendly since they were the only people I was serving and I could offer that personal service.</p>
<p>We chatted, talk about church (on a fairly superficial level of course I had no desire to argue) they invited me to visit&#8230; They left me an 5 percent tip and a tract for their church. This wasn&#8217;t out of the ordinary but just one of the more memorable situations. Changed how I tipped from that point on.</p>
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		<title>By: Happy</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/11/06/the-bait-and-switch-of-contemporary-christianity/comment-page-1#comment-81750</link>
		<dc:creator>Happy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 21:55:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2379#comment-81750</guid>
		<description>Wow you must have been channeling &quot;This American Life&quot; whose topic this week is &quot;Bait and Switch&quot;  

Ira talks with Dave Dickerson about some of the bait and switch techniques Dave used when he was an evangelical trying to bring converts to the Church. Then Ira talks with author and evangelical Jim Henderson, who argues that evangelicals should follow Jesus&#039;s example not through conversion, but by simply befriending non-believers. Dave Dickerson is the author of the book House of Cards: Love, Faith, and other Social Expressions. Jim Henderson records his thoughts on the website doableevangelism.com. (13 minutes)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow you must have been channeling &#8220;This American Life&#8221; whose topic this week is &#8220;Bait and Switch&#8221;  </p>
<p>Ira talks with Dave Dickerson about some of the bait and switch techniques Dave used when he was an evangelical trying to bring converts to the Church. Then Ira talks with author and evangelical Jim Henderson, who argues that evangelicals should follow Jesus&#8217;s example not through conversion, but by simply befriending non-believers. Dave Dickerson is the author of the book House of Cards: Love, Faith, and other Social Expressions. Jim Henderson records his thoughts on the website doableevangelism.com. (13 minutes)</p>
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		<title>By: Deb</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/11/06/the-bait-and-switch-of-contemporary-christianity/comment-page-1#comment-81741</link>
		<dc:creator>Deb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 17:31:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2379#comment-81741</guid>
		<description>Thank you for posting this.  I was raised Baptist and no longer practice.  However, I am exploring churches in my new town and (to my own surprise) seem to intend to return to some protestant church  - although I&#039;m not sure which one. This exercise makes me queasy and nervous - I&#039;m not a Christian if one can talk about it in the cultural terms:  praise music, home schooling, republican, etc.  Frankly the idea of trying to become one again is what keeps me at a distance.  Reading voices like this one help me to continue despite my unease.

Thanks again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for posting this.  I was raised Baptist and no longer practice.  However, I am exploring churches in my new town and (to my own surprise) seem to intend to return to some protestant church  &#8211; although I&#8217;m not sure which one. This exercise makes me queasy and nervous &#8211; I&#8217;m not a Christian if one can talk about it in the cultural terms:  praise music, home schooling, republican, etc.  Frankly the idea of trying to become one again is what keeps me at a distance.  Reading voices like this one help me to continue despite my unease.</p>
<p>Thanks again.</p>
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		<title>By: Glenn</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/11/06/the-bait-and-switch-of-contemporary-christianity/comment-page-1#comment-81735</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 13:03:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2379#comment-81735</guid>
		<description>He left off being a follower of Obama as an acceptable alternative.  The moral indignation of the religious right is matched in intensity only by the self righteous arrogance of the Christian left.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He left off being a follower of Obama as an acceptable alternative.  The moral indignation of the religious right is matched in intensity only by the self righteous arrogance of the Christian left.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken Hines</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/11/06/the-bait-and-switch-of-contemporary-christianity/comment-page-1#comment-81731</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken Hines</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 15:02:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2379#comment-81731</guid>
		<description>I guess I must have blinders on, but I&#039;ve never seen this kind of behavior by Christians in a restaurant.  Well, OK, I have seen some pretty poor tips, but when I do I excuse myself on the way out to leave something more on the table, and I would imagine a lot of other people do the same thing.

Even when there have been issues with the food, a caterpillar in the salad, a nail in the rice, a hamburger served without the meat, a well-done steak served medium rare, I have never seen anything like the anger or a dismissive attitude mentioned in the post, not once.

Of course we disciples need to be more humble and generous, starting with me.  But in my opinion, bashing ourselves unnecessarily doesn&#039;t help us become better persons.  I am much more convicted when the Lord brings to my remembrance the times that I have been rude than in being told that Christians in general are rude.  What am I missing here?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess I must have blinders on, but I&#8217;ve never seen this kind of behavior by Christians in a restaurant.  Well, OK, I have seen some pretty poor tips, but when I do I excuse myself on the way out to leave something more on the table, and I would imagine a lot of other people do the same thing.</p>
<p>Even when there have been issues with the food, a caterpillar in the salad, a nail in the rice, a hamburger served without the meat, a well-done steak served medium rare, I have never seen anything like the anger or a dismissive attitude mentioned in the post, not once.</p>
<p>Of course we disciples need to be more humble and generous, starting with me.  But in my opinion, bashing ourselves unnecessarily doesn&#8217;t help us become better persons.  I am much more convicted when the Lord brings to my remembrance the times that I have been rude than in being told that Christians in general are rude.  What am I missing here?</p>
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		<title>By: Phil W.</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/11/06/the-bait-and-switch-of-contemporary-christianity/comment-page-1#comment-81730</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 06:13:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2379#comment-81730</guid>
		<description>Not only is this post excellent, I&#039;d also encourage people to read his series on Christians and Torture. It&#039;s a sobering and thought-provoking one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not only is this post excellent, I&#8217;d also encourage people to read his series on Christians and Torture. It&#8217;s a sobering and thought-provoking one.</p>
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		<title>By: D. Dallas</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/11/06/the-bait-and-switch-of-contemporary-christianity/comment-page-1#comment-81729</link>
		<dc:creator>D. Dallas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 03:24:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2379#comment-81729</guid>
		<description>Many youth groups and adults as well have been singing latest praise songs and listening to very inspirational sermons for generations and failing to engage God in the process.  What I was saying and still saying is they weren&#039;t substituting those activities for engaging their culture in a postive way--they were not engaging when doing these activities and thus were not transformed in Jesus image 2 Corinthians 3:18.
Further saying that Richard is missing the true source of the problem.  There is not a bait and switch--there is a total misunderstanding of the &quot;spiritual disciplines&quot;.  They are engaged in as a work rather than a process whereby transformation occurs--thus they don&#039;t result in a positive result.
We might find our why so many times the most active and seemingly spiritual kids in the local youth group leaves home and from the very first doesn&#039;t darken the church door.  Obviously, what we see is not what we were really getting in the youth group.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many youth groups and adults as well have been singing latest praise songs and listening to very inspirational sermons for generations and failing to engage God in the process.  What I was saying and still saying is they weren&#8217;t substituting those activities for engaging their culture in a postive way&#8211;they were not engaging when doing these activities and thus were not transformed in Jesus image 2 Corinthians 3:18.<br />
Further saying that Richard is missing the true source of the problem.  There is not a bait and switch&#8211;there is a total misunderstanding of the &#8220;spiritual disciplines&#8221;.  They are engaged in as a work rather than a process whereby transformation occurs&#8211;thus they don&#8217;t result in a positive result.<br />
We might find our why so many times the most active and seemingly spiritual kids in the local youth group leaves home and from the very first doesn&#8217;t darken the church door.  Obviously, what we see is not what we were really getting in the youth group.</p>
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		<title>By: Canada Jim</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/11/06/the-bait-and-switch-of-contemporary-christianity/comment-page-1#comment-81728</link>
		<dc:creator>Canada Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 01:17:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2379#comment-81728</guid>
		<description>There you go with that incarnational stuff again...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There you go with that incarnational stuff again&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: janjanmom</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/11/06/the-bait-and-switch-of-contemporary-christianity/comment-page-1#comment-81727</link>
		<dc:creator>janjanmom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 06:16:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2379#comment-81727</guid>
		<description>I love love love this.  I used to be a waitress AND amen.  Even if the service is abyssmal-leave a generous tip if you are the church crowd.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love love love this.  I used to be a waitress AND amen.  Even if the service is abyssmal-leave a generous tip if you are the church crowd.</p>
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