Please suggest to us a socio-economic system for the modern nation-state world, if you don’t like capitalism. So far your only suggestion is a political theocracy based on OT laws.

But offer one that has proof of history on its side.

Jr. – very much agree. Let’s not take the Lord’s name in vain by constructing pseudo-theological arguments to buttress our own socio-economic prejudices and preferences.

That being said, I think arguing for capitalism is the wrong way to take this for proponents of a free market. You shouldn’t argue for the economic system, but the political system, a decentralized, community based system where human beings are able to organize in the ways they deem appropriate as long as they don’t infringe on their lockian rights. Are Lockian rights the same as the rights that we as followers of Jesus believe that all people have? Nope. But they are certainly a start. And when those rights, and those rights only, are defended by the only entities that have the legal use of force, that’s pretty much the best system that human beings have developed throughout history. Granted, its still massively flawed compared to the way that God’s economy is arranged, where there are no hungry, no poor, because all look out for each other. That is absolutely NOT a mandate to put human beings in charge of the welfare of everyone through violent redistribution of wealth (and if you want to argue its not violent, try not paying your taxes for a while, eventually men with guns show up and take you to jail, and if you won’t go, they will shoot you).

A good book on the topic for those that don’t see the injustice and flaws of enlightenment liberalism, check out Being Consumed by Tom Cavanaugh. Its a great read and it changed me from a quasi randian anarcho capitalist, to a person who appreciates that there is a lot of good to the system we claim to follow, but that it is in no way perfect, which is why regardless of the system we live under, we live as though God’s reign has come in full, without fear, because of our hope of resurrection.

As I read the comments about the OT’s shall we say, economy structure vs today’s capitalism one scripture kept jumping into my mind.

Proverbs 31

Is it only women that are considered of Nobel Character as they rise early to care for their households, treat household help fairly, and also run a small business? The latter certainly sounds like capitalism to me.

G’nite all.

Rex, the masses are peoples the world over whose living standards have unquestionably been raised by economic and political freedom. Is there still poverty — sure. And, one of the reasons it is now so glaringly visible is because there are more of us than ever before who are not living at a subsistence level. This is largely the result of the capitalism and the industrial revolution.

Jeff W., subtlety has never been my strong suit. Regarding the forced redistribution of lands that is recorded in the OT, I do not know of anyone today qualified to do that redistribution of land and food. Do you? If so, who would you appoint for that task? Free markets, on the other hand, have done a better job than anything else than distributing food to those all around the world. Is there still hunger? Sure. But I dare say there would be much more without the gains made from the industrial revolution and capitalism. Two hundred years ago, it took 19 out of 20 people just to feed the US. Today, it takes probably less than one in twenty. The US is one of the largest (probably the largest) exporter of food in the world. That is a good thing.

I think part of the problem is that people see unethical businesspeople and they want to blame the economic system rather than the moral breakdown. It is not capitalism that causes the moral breakdown. Sleazy people will be sleazy regardless of the economic system in which they exist.

Jr. made, I think, an excellent point. Too many people want the government to do the job of the church.

Capitolism “has done more to lift the masses out of poverty than anything else in history.” ??? Who are the masses? The last time I checked, the majority of the world’s wealth was still controlled by the minority. I don’t believe that everything about capitolism is wrong but I do believe its licensure for financial predators is a violation of the kingdom ethics God has in mind for this world. I believe there are certain practices that derive from a capitolistic ideology which are a violation of the kingdom of God. I also wonder what capitolism has in common with the principles that lay behind the jubiean ethics in Leviticus or the social-economic practices found in Acts. It is for these reasons why I refuse to give a high-five to capitolism as though it is the best thing since sliced bread.

Grace and peace,

Rex

Like paying more taxes, reducing third-world debt, and arguing to get rid of nuclear weapons means a rip to eternally lost souls. Or the flip side. Like reducing taxes, ripping off poor countries, or making bombs means a rip to eternally lost souls. Pagans do such things with no account or true love for men.

I’d rather die from a nuclear bomb while preaching the Gospel to unreached peoples in a foreign land than live knowing unreached peoples will never be nuked.

Too many people (left and right) expect government to do the job of the Church.

This also comes from a fundamental misunderstanding on what the Gospel is. The Gospel is what Jesus the Christ as done and not what we do (in response to it or otherwise).

Please understand that I’m not saying that we don’t stand up for what is right and just. An under-realized eschatology is void of our new reality in Jesus. But an over-realized eschatology prostitutes the Gospel message. I find it really hard to differentiate some proponents of such “world change” to that of the prosperity gospel-types. Jesus is a means to an end. Be Jesus, and make other people’s water cleaner. Be Jesus, we won’t have any more wars. Be Jesus, your debt will be relieved.

This puts the gifts (or, effects) above the giver. Makes Christ a means to an end where the end is what is really desired.

My main concern for the world is this: When you have no clean water, is God in Christ enough for you? When war is all around, is God in Christ enough for you? When your poor country suffers from oppressive regimes and other nations, is God in Christ enough for you?

When people can say “yes” to that question, God is glorified.

I’ll say it again: Too many people expect government to do the job of the Church.

It is hard to take you seriously when you write as if capitalism and total central planning are the only economic systems available or endeavored. Be a bit more subtle.

Last, I don’t mean to violently proof-text, but what do you make of Israel’s forced redistribution of land and crops as described in the OT?

Colonialism? Are you saying that only capitalist countries have shown a tendency to be expansionist in a military sense? Really?

Air pollution? So, let me guess, China must have the cleanest air on earth.

Your remark about “be warmed and filled” betrays an assumption on your part that a capitalist is somehow against charity. That is not true. Just because I am against the government reaching into your pocket against your will to give me money you have earned does not mean I would be unwilling to receive your charity should you choose to provide it.

K. Rex, I am not sure why so many theologians are so quick to condemn capitalism when it has done more to lift the masses out of poverty than anything else in history. Do you know why that is the case? You say, “the scriptures we taught as inspired and authoritative envision a completely different set of social-economic practices.” What exactly is it in Scripture that teaches against one being free to earn based on work and investment and to voluntarily give to charitable causes as one purposes in his heart? What exactly is it in Scripture that you believe seems to suggest it is more Biblical for the government to determine the business transactions in which you engage and to take your money via taxation to give to causes those in government deem fit to receive it? What is it that makes you believe the self-interest of politicians is somehow nobler than the self-interest of the businessperson? Will those in government reward all that is good and noble or will they not be guided by their own self interests? Just where are these angels in government that you believe know best how to organize society?

Exhibit 2: colonialism.

Exhibit 3: modern air pollution and other forms of ecological destruction.

In all these, capitalism provides great liberty for those with capital, who can then give a hearty “be warmed and well fed” to those without. God’s position on that is clear.

Drake, I said nothing about “free markets,” mainly because they are a fiction. They might be useful as economic models, but they aren’t economic realities.

But I forgot…the American way of Christianity is to set asside in one way or another those ancient ideas in exchange for the American way and then defend that rather modern way as though it was inspired of God .

Grace and peace,

Rex

That’s like saying a quick and strongly-held defense of medicine gives credence to the beliefs of scientologists. Why don’t you tell us what you prefer to capitalism and why it would do more to lift people out of poverty?

One of Bruggemann’s errors is that he seems to want to put the seduction of “getting and having” as strictly a symptom of capitalism. I think that problem has been around a bit longer.