Comments on: The Value of a Well-Placed Complaint http://preachermike.com/2009/10/27/complaints Sniffing out the work of God in the world... Fri, 10 Feb 2012 03:36:33 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Alan http://preachermike.com/2009/10/27/complaints/comment-page-1#comment-81860 Alan Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:39:50 +0000 http://preachermike.com/?p=2290#comment-81860 Many episodes in the OT teach us about complaining. It's sin! When people complain, gripe and/or grumble, it's sinful behavior, period. We've gotten way too comfortable with placating people who behave in such a way. It isn't a pastor's job to 'deal with it,' but rather to do exactly as you said: "you sometimes have to boldly and lovingly challenge such people." [I'd take out 'sometimes'] Moses told the Israelites repeatedly that it wasn't him or Aaron they were complaining against, but God. In essence, complainers are saying that what God has provided isn't good enough. It's the opposite of being thankful. The advice given to Timothy and Titus should be sufficient, but sadly their advice is almost completely ignored by modern churches. We're so freaked out by the idea that we're not pleasing to everyone and may lose them as members, that we forget it's our job to TRAIN them, not placate them, entertain them or pacify them. That grumpy 'conservative' who insists on tradition needs to be taught. Same with the 'liberal' who wants to exercise her freedom, even though it causes some to struggle. I have an ancient aunt who has attended Highland for a zillion years. I asked her once how she liked having Mike Cope around. Her response was: "Oh, it's alright. It ain't church, but it's alright." She accepts the fact that things change. They aren't necessarily what she was raised to believe, but she also understands that time and people change, and she's unwilling to gripe and act like a fool just because something isn't her way. Paul told Timothy and Titus the same thing again and again, but it's summed up nicely in Titus this way: "Shun foolish controversies ... strife and disputes ... for they are unporfiatble and worthless. Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, knowing that such a man ... is sinning." We don't have to listen to this nonsense. We (pastors) don't have to allow ourselves to be mistreated (by those within the church). We are supposed to train them. Their sin is going to put them in grave danger on judgment day for the preachers and elders they have beat down over the years. As Churches of Christ, we're supposed to follow biblical example. If people have a dispute with a minister/elder, why not obey Jesus in Matthew 18, or follow the example of Priscilla and Aquilla in Acts 18:26. THAT is how you can love your pastor, and it's the pastor's job before God to TEACH you this - however difficult it may be. Amen (from an anonymous preacher now enduring this spiritual insanity - maybe I'm biased, but I don't think I'm wrong) Many episodes in the OT teach us about complaining. It’s sin! When people complain, gripe and/or grumble, it’s sinful behavior, period. We’ve gotten way too comfortable with placating people who behave in such a way. It isn’t a pastor’s job to ‘deal with it,’ but rather to do exactly as you said: “you sometimes have to boldly and lovingly challenge such people.” [I'd take out 'sometimes'] Moses told the Israelites repeatedly that it wasn’t him or Aaron they were complaining against, but God. In essence, complainers are saying that what God has provided isn’t good enough. It’s the opposite of being thankful.

The advice given to Timothy and Titus should be sufficient, but sadly their advice is almost completely ignored by modern churches. We’re so freaked out by the idea that we’re not pleasing to everyone and may lose them as members, that we forget it’s our job to TRAIN them, not placate them, entertain them or pacify them. That grumpy ‘conservative’ who insists on tradition needs to be taught. Same with the ‘liberal’ who wants to exercise her freedom, even though it causes some to struggle.

I have an ancient aunt who has attended Highland for a zillion years. I asked her once how she liked having Mike Cope around. Her response was: “Oh, it’s alright. It ain’t church, but it’s alright.” She accepts the fact that things change. They aren’t necessarily what she was raised to believe, but she also understands that time and people change, and she’s unwilling to gripe and act like a fool just because something isn’t her way.

Paul told Timothy and Titus the same thing again and again, but it’s summed up nicely in Titus this way: “Shun foolish controversies … strife and disputes … for they are unporfiatble and worthless. Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, knowing that such a man … is sinning.”

We don’t have to listen to this nonsense. We (pastors) don’t have to allow ourselves to be mistreated (by those within the church). We are supposed to train them. Their sin is going to put them in grave danger on judgment day for the preachers and elders they have beat down over the years.

As Churches of Christ, we’re supposed to follow biblical example. If people have a dispute with a minister/elder, why not obey Jesus in Matthew 18, or follow the example of Priscilla and Aquilla in Acts 18:26. THAT is how you can love your pastor, and it’s the pastor’s job before God to TEACH you this – however difficult it may be.

Amen
(from an anonymous preacher now enduring this spiritual insanity – maybe I’m biased, but I don’t think I’m wrong)

]]> By: vtc3po http://preachermike.com/2009/10/27/complaints/comment-page-1#comment-81645 vtc3po Sat, 31 Oct 2009 15:31:32 +0000 http://preachermike.com/?p=2290#comment-81645 Well -- what can I say? We really don't have complainers. What a blessing we experience each week with such love and support. You might find it interesting that the church leadership is about to read together the book "The No ******* Rule: Building a Civilized Workplace and Surviving One That Isn't. -- by Robert Sutton. (I'm guessing "complainer" could be inserted as a synonym for the ******* word . . . BTW -- we heard that the leadership of a church in Abilene just read this.) Perhaps the fact that we all want to read this together shows our attitudes about such things. We love and respect each other -- and still don't take ourselves too seriously. It's all in the spirit. Love and compassion and words spoken in "gentleness" are the key!! Well — what can I say? We really don’t have complainers. What a blessing we experience each week with such love and support.

You might find it interesting that the church leadership is about to read together the book “The No ******* Rule: Building a Civilized Workplace and Surviving One That Isn’t. — by Robert Sutton. (I’m guessing “complainer” could be inserted as a synonym for the ******* word . . . BTW — we heard that the leadership of a church in Abilene just read this.)

Perhaps the fact that we all want to read this together shows our attitudes about such things. We love and respect each other — and still don’t take ourselves too seriously. It’s all in the spirit. Love and compassion and words spoken in “gentleness” are the key!!

]]> By: eirenetheou http://preachermike.com/2009/10/27/complaints/comment-page-1#comment-81626 eirenetheou Wed, 28 Oct 2009 14:28:41 +0000 http://preachermike.com/?p=2290#comment-81626 "We who are strong" are called to "bear the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves." In many congregations, bearing "the failings of the weak" can be a difficult assignment, especially when the "weak" are persons of influence, because of their money or their relationships, and they are demanding to be pleased . . . or else. That demand -- to be pleased -- is the first, certain sign of "weakness" to which we should attend, in ourselves or anyone else. When someone threatens to leave or to cut off her contribution because of something that offends her, or when someone attempts to dictate policy or regulate practice in worship or any other ministry, or when someone demands that an employee be fired or an elder resign, the best, immediate response from the leaders is a firm "No." It is then that the hard work begins: first to deal justly and honestly with the substance of the complaint, and then to determine what lies behind it or what "the real problem" is. This is a time-consuming process, and it is rarely if ever pleasing to us, at least in the beginning. It can be expensive in many ways. It may not always end with reconciliation and forgiveness. Responsible, truly "pastoral" church discipline is almost always painful to everyone concerned, but it is essential to the making of disciples. The alternatives are always worse. Jesus teaches us to love our enemies and to pray for those who persecute us. These are instructions difficult to hear and harder to carry out. They are almost as difficult to hear as the instruction to "beware when all humankind speak well of you." That one may be the most difficult, and the one to which we should give serious attention on the rare occasions when such praise is happening. God's Peace to you. d “We who are strong” are called to “bear the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves.” In many congregations, bearing “the failings of the weak” can be a difficult assignment, especially when the “weak” are persons of influence, because of their money or their relationships, and they are demanding to be pleased . . . or else. That demand — to be pleased — is the first, certain sign of “weakness” to which we should attend, in ourselves or anyone else.

When someone threatens to leave or to cut off her contribution because of something that offends her, or when someone attempts to dictate policy or regulate practice in worship or any other ministry, or when someone demands that an employee be fired or an elder resign, the best, immediate response from the leaders is a firm “No.” It is then that the hard work begins: first to deal justly and honestly with the substance of the complaint, and then to determine what lies behind it or what “the real problem” is. This is a time-consuming process, and it is rarely if ever pleasing to us, at least in the beginning. It can be expensive in many ways. It may not always end with reconciliation and forgiveness. Responsible, truly “pastoral” church discipline is almost always painful to everyone concerned, but it is essential to the making of disciples. The alternatives are always worse.

Jesus teaches us to love our enemies and to pray for those who persecute us. These are instructions difficult to hear and harder to carry out. They are almost as difficult to hear as the instruction to “beware when all humankind speak well of you.” That one may be the most difficult, and the one to which we should give serious attention on the rare occasions when such praise is happening.

God’s Peace to you.

d

]]> By: Chris http://preachermike.com/2009/10/27/complaints/comment-page-1#comment-81620 Chris Wed, 28 Oct 2009 03:49:22 +0000 http://preachermike.com/?p=2290#comment-81620 I think it can work both ways. The person in the pew can be emotionally drained by the professional leadership who are determined to make changes in the church. I read several blogs by "leaders" who are constantly complaining about one thing or another. In fact, that's what most blogs are about. I think it can work both ways. The person in the pew can be emotionally drained by the professional leadership who are determined to make changes in the church. I read several blogs by “leaders” who are constantly complaining about one thing or another. In fact, that’s what most blogs are about.

]]> By: Keith Brenton http://preachermike.com/2009/10/27/complaints/comment-page-1#comment-81617 Keith Brenton Wed, 28 Oct 2009 00:43:59 +0000 http://preachermike.com/?p=2290#comment-81617 Well, I think you're all wrong and I think challenging people's comfort zones is wrong and I think it's wrong to berate people like me who are trying to make things right that are wrong and besides I don't like the temperature in this chatroom. Well, I think you’re all wrong and I think challenging people’s comfort zones is wrong and I think it’s wrong to berate people like me who are trying to make things right that are wrong and besides I don’t like the temperature in this chatroom.

]]> By: qb http://preachermike.com/2009/10/27/complaints/comment-page-1#comment-81616 qb Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:33:36 +0000 http://preachermike.com/?p=2290#comment-81616 No, Mike, I did not catch that. Next time I'll be more attentive to irony. Mea culpa. qb No, Mike, I did not catch that. Next time I’ll be more attentive to irony. Mea culpa. qb

]]> By: H Bryan http://preachermike.com/2009/10/27/complaints/comment-page-1#comment-81615 H Bryan Tue, 27 Oct 2009 21:34:11 +0000 http://preachermike.com/?p=2290#comment-81615 Long ago I heard a trusted friend say that complaints to church leaders must be weighed rather than counted. Comments, either positive or negative, have greater impact coming from committed, helpful disciples. That has helped me a lot. I personally love the story of a family driving to a restaurant after church and complaining about church. The mom complained about the song leader. The dad complained about the length of the service. The daughter complained about the clothes some people wore. The son said, "I thought it was a pretty good show, especially since we all got in for a dollar." Long ago I heard a trusted friend say that complaints to church leaders must be weighed rather than counted. Comments, either positive or negative, have greater impact coming from committed, helpful disciples. That has helped me a lot.
I personally love the story of a family driving to a restaurant after church and complaining about church. The mom complained about the song leader. The dad complained about the length of the service. The daughter complained about the clothes some people wore. The son said, “I thought it was a pretty good show, especially since we all got in for a dollar.”

]]> By: Randy http://preachermike.com/2009/10/27/complaints/comment-page-1#comment-81614 Randy Tue, 27 Oct 2009 21:01:41 +0000 http://preachermike.com/?p=2290#comment-81614 One of the most helpful books that has helped me get a handle on complainers is "Well Intentioned Dragons". One of the most helpful books that has helped me get a handle on complainers is “Well Intentioned Dragons”.

]]> By: Mike http://preachermike.com/2009/10/27/complaints/comment-page-1#comment-81613 Mike Tue, 27 Oct 2009 20:47:13 +0000 http://preachermike.com/?p=2290#comment-81613 qb - I guess you got that I was still using professional to talk about a "professional complainer" -- not about a person in leadership. qb – I guess you got that I was still using professional to talk about a “professional complainer” — not about a person in leadership.

]]> By: qb http://preachermike.com/2009/10/27/complaints/comment-page-1#comment-81612 qb Tue, 27 Oct 2009 20:26:04 +0000 http://preachermike.com/?p=2290#comment-81612 BTW, the notion of a "professional" in the church context is an intriguingly modern, intriguingly American one. qb will have to reflect on the role that notion plays in lending credence to any would-be prophetic criticism. Fascinated, qb BTW, the notion of a “professional” in the church context is an intriguingly modern, intriguingly American one. qb will have to reflect on the role that notion plays in lending credence to any would-be prophetic criticism.

Fascinated,

qb

]]> By: qb http://preachermike.com/2009/10/27/complaints/comment-page-1#comment-81611 qb Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:37:32 +0000 http://preachermike.com/?p=2290#comment-81611 Two words: prophetic voices. qb Two words: prophetic voices.

qb

]]> By: Leah Holamon http://preachermike.com/2009/10/27/complaints/comment-page-1#comment-81610 Leah Holamon Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:17:25 +0000 http://preachermike.com/?p=2290#comment-81610 Yes it's all about context and motive and heart. As a pastor's wife I see a lot complaints from the music being too loud, to the sermons too long to more valid complaints and constructive criticism but coming from people would could help but don't. Criticism is wonderful. We should all be open to it. But members need to realize they need to help. We need to stop being a church where less than 20% of the people do anything but "take". Yes it’s all about context and motive and heart. As a pastor’s wife I see a lot complaints from the music being too loud, to the sermons too long to more valid complaints and constructive criticism but coming from people would could help but don’t. Criticism is wonderful. We should all be open to it. But members need to realize they need to help. We need to stop being a church where less than 20% of the people do anything but “take”.

]]> By: Kent F http://preachermike.com/2009/10/27/complaints/comment-page-1#comment-81609 Kent F Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:30:31 +0000 http://preachermike.com/?p=2290#comment-81609 It's up to ministers and elders to have the wisdom to discern between an immature whine and a legitimate complaint. Some have this discernment, many do not. There's the iron-fisted elder that hears nothing, there's the over-the-top Mr. Positive minister or elder who only wants to hear cheery praise or good stuff, and then there's the mature leader who listens, communicates, and - when needed - tells adults to grow up! It’s up to ministers and elders to have the wisdom to discern between an immature whine and a legitimate complaint. Some have this discernment, many do not. There’s the iron-fisted elder that hears nothing, there’s the over-the-top Mr. Positive minister or elder who only wants to hear cheery praise or good stuff, and then there’s the mature leader who listens, communicates, and – when needed – tells adults to grow up!

]]> By: JTB http://preachermike.com/2009/10/27/complaints/comment-page-1#comment-81608 JTB Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:21:14 +0000 http://preachermike.com/?p=2290#comment-81608 Mike, I find it very interesting to read this post in the context of the commentary on your Oct 6 post ("is what the Bible says the only question"). I don't know if that was intentional on your part, but it certainly points up the erroneous assumption in the commentary that all those who advocate for gender justice are professional complainers, rather than supportive people sticking it out and pitching in whenever and wherever possible, looking for that moment when a "well-placed complaint" might make a difference. Mike, I find it very interesting to read this post in the context of the commentary on your Oct 6 post (“is what the Bible says the only question”). I don’t know if that was intentional on your part, but it certainly points up the erroneous assumption in the commentary that all those who advocate for gender justice are professional complainers, rather than supportive people sticking it out and pitching in whenever and wherever possible, looking for that moment when a “well-placed complaint” might make a difference.

]]> By: clint http://preachermike.com/2009/10/27/complaints/comment-page-1#comment-81607 clint Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:12:03 +0000 http://preachermike.com/?p=2290#comment-81607 What a well timed post. I have been visiting a CoC and have heard nothing negative from the pulpit till last Sunday. I am now trying to decide whether to approach the preacher or mark it up to standard CoC doctrine and move on. This post reminds me of how to act. Thanks Mike. Add me to the prayer list with Joel G. Quile. What a well timed post. I have been visiting a CoC and have heard nothing negative from the pulpit till last Sunday. I am now trying to decide whether to approach the preacher or mark it up to standard CoC doctrine and move on. This post reminds me of how to act. Thanks Mike.

Add me to the prayer list with Joel G. Quile.

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