Brian McLaren on Health Care
2009 August 15
In the midst of baseless rumors and scare tactics about “enemy lists” and a “death panel,” here is a reasonable plea by Brian McLaren. What a great time it is for reasonable discussion by right, left and middle!
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Mike, dear friend,
I have avoided political discussion on your blog as long as you were my pastor/teacher/preacher and out of that same deep respect for you, will not go into details of questioning this piece.
I agree with
“The wisdom that comes from above is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace raise of harvest of righteousness.”
What I cannot agree with is that his point of view sets the standard by which we all must follow if we’re to be true followers of Jesus. I also take exception to the opinion that many of us let our politics form our belief structure – rather I believe like me there are many whose belief in and being a follower of Jesus forms our political point of view.
Another worrisome truth
is that I am enough older than either you or McClaren to be able to remember what led up to the explosion of violence in 1939 through 1945. There are some goings-on in our present political scene to raise troubling thoughts and fearful deja vu. In that light, I pray those of us of opposing political views will not be painted with a broad brush of “you all think this [....] is truth – we do not, ergo y’all are not following the spirit of your LORD!” There are, imo, many disturbing things happening today to sit down and be quiet. Also, Imho, the only one that truly knows our hearts, truly knows where we are with Him and by extension with all around us, including our political view is that same LORD.
As has been said in the past, this is your blog and we are simple participants and as such owe you special respect here. But in the case of McClaren’s opinion of those of opposing views, I must disagree. And with that, ’nuff said.
On another subject …. am looking forward to the Sunday morning you pop up out of your seat to help serve communion. You are missed. By ‘you’ all the family!!
Hopefully and it’s almost time for y’all to come home! 
In His loving grace and mercy – praying for God’s traveling mercies for you and family!!
[not very well written - never should try to write on a deep subject before breakfast.
]
Kathy,
I don’t agree with the current proposal either, but I think comparing Obama’s health care plan to Hitler’s rise in Germany is a little bit of a stretch.
We need reform. Both sides have succeeded in making this a two option situation. Obama’s plan or no change. That should not be the goal.
I’m against his plan, not because I don’t desire care for all (I do) but because I don’t think this reform will fix the problem. There are many other options for reform. No one is talking about what, to me, seems to be the major issue.
Insurance was never supposed to be for doctors visits. It was supposed to be for catastrophic stuff that you would never ever be able to afford. When the government began giving tax breaks to employers for providing insurance, those using the care became divorced from its cost. When you get strep throat, or a cold, or a sinus infection, those with insurance pay 20 dollars regardless of the price. You go to the doctor that takes your insurance, not the one you think gives the best care at the best price. The cost of the healthcare is borne by your employer, and as it rises, the cost of employing you goes up, but your wages stay the same. Essentially, you get a raise, and never see a penny of it.
If we went to a system where government insured all from catastrophic things, and encouraged people to get tax free health savings accounts rather than tax free employer coverage, there would be cost discovery. People could make choices about what doctor they go see, because they are paying for it out of pocket. And if the government wanted to cover the poor, they could load up HSA accounts to those in need. But then people make the choices, rather than corporations. And costs necessarily go down because we have single payer catastrophic care, and no one uses insurance for normal doctors visits. Doctors offices have an insane amount of cost related to dealing with people’s insurance. Its wasteful and should end. But the answer isn’t giving blanket coverage, because it leads to a loss of freedom, and it leads to government rationing of care…. and if political power gets in the wrong hands, that’s a dangerous.
We need reform. We need a real debate about reform. What would really be amazing is if the church, who necessarily should believe in providing health care for all, quit building bigger barns and started providing care for those in need in our communities. If you don’t believe that the government is going to make this situation better, you must do it yourself. The church exists to be a countercultural witness to the state, to show the structures of power that so often oppress, that a better way exists. The church is to be that better way.
Thanks for these responses. My great interest here is in civil dialogue (which you’ve both offered).
There is plenty to debate here without the fear-mongering of enemy lists and death panels.
I’m interested in the series coming up by Scot McKnight:
“Beginning Monday we will begin a series on President Barack Obama’s health care proposals (Obamacare). We want to exhibit to the American public that a civil conversation can happen, that it can happen over serious issues, and that it can happen when folks disagree with one another. Please join us — Monday.”
I am amazed at the vehemence that has grabbed even followers of the Faith on this issue. And we don’t even have a plan to vote on yet! Good luck, Mike, on keeping this discussion civil.
Forgive us for being skeptical when the Obama administration claims there will be no death panels. These are the same people who fight hard to make sure that the killing of innocent children remains legal, and that any and all restrictions are removed. Is it really a stretch to think that they would try to find a way to rid the earth of other “inconvenient” people?
As for the “enemy lists” — what else would you call it? Obama and his cronies want you to report your neighbor if you catch them badmouthing the administration’s policies.
I do agree with McLaren that there needs to be a lot more discussion on health care reform. But that’s just what his hero Obama does NOT want. The president is trying shove this legislation down our throats as quickly as possible. Thank God for the protesters at the town hall meetings! They are forcing congress to be a bit more thoughtful and deliberate about this whole thing.
No, Jimbo, it’s not a stretch; and if Obama, Pelosi, and Reid (and their collaborators) had their way, they would already have rushed through a bill precisely WITHOUT the very substantive debate that McLaren wants us to believe he desires. There are occasions when quietly going about one’s way and suggesting alternatives is utterly ineffective, and in a case like this, when the proponents of the House bill – and Steve Sr., there IS a plan already voted on in the House, and four more pending in the Senate – are proposing such sweeping changes to the nation’s fundamental self-understanding, sitting with hands neatly folded across one’s lap is tantamount to complicity. Political and economic freedom is much too important for that. qb, for one, is willing to slug this one out – respectfully, but not as a doormat.
(Let’s be clear here: Obama is audibly and incontrovertibly on record having said he wants opponents to shut their mouths and get out of the way. Ignore that if you wish, but it’s the truth of the matter. Obama wants free rein to do what he wants; indeed, he appears to think he deserves it.)
Justin, try if you can to ignore the genocidal overtones of the Nazi comparison, because the mainstream voices taking Pelosi’s cue and evaluating the evidence are not going that direction. They are simply pointing out, again taking Pelosi’s cue, that the rise of fascism as a political movement began with seemingly innocuous moves to nationalize health-care systems. The threat is real, even if the genocidal overtones offend you. Only those pro-Pelosi, pro-Obama forces who wish to score political points by disingenuity are intentionally invoking the genocidal aspects of the Reich and Mussolini’s Italy. They know good and well that no serious person is accusing the Obama-Pelosi axis of genocidal inclinations, but it wouldn’t help their cause to admit it.
In the spirit of honest debate, it’s important to draw the distinction between fascism _as such_ and the genocidal extensions to which Hitler took his ill-gotten power. Ignoring it, again, is simply willful demagoguery.
qb
Justin,
You are correct in saying insurance should be about catastrophic care. Somehow our society has developed the mentality of wanting to finance dollar one of any health expense. Much of this is due, however, to the root cause of the current crisis — that being the high cost of health “care”. Much debate is about “insurance” costs, but insurance is only reactionary to the high cost of care that insurance companies are responsible for reimbursing on their insureds behalf. The real issue is finding the solutions that put a significant bend in the curve of costs passed on by hospitals, pharmaceutical companies, and physicians.
A couple of places where you are incorrect — first, you said “Both sides have succeeded in making this a two option situation. Obama’s plan or no change.” Please know – Republicans are very much for reform, they just want it done right! Republican preference would be to do so through private market solutions rather than government intervention, and that is a big part of the reform plan that House Republicans came out with in late July. In fact, every plan that has come out, creating the heated debates, had multiple amendments offered by Republicans on the respective committees that ALL got rejected by the Democrats that outnumbered them. Second, you say “And if the government wanted to cover the poor……”. Government does offer coverage to the poor through Medicaid. Government also offers coverage to the elderly through Medicare. Unfortunately, reports will show that both government run programs have unfunded liabilities in the trillions.
Reform is needed! Congress should not rush into an ill-conceived plan, nor should they shelve because decisions get put off into an election cycle. But please do it right!
QB, I commend you on a being a clear voice of reason.
BTW, try to imagine the signatories of the Declaration of Independence and those infidels in Boston Harbor sending their suggested policy options over to King George and then mildly going about their business!
qb is thankful for revolutionary fervor in the defense of the unique brand of liberty that our founders handed over to us. Would that we were equally fervent about preserving it. Until April of this year, the only fervor in play in American politics was that of those mild-mannered ACORN partisans.
qb
C.
I’m gonna have to respectfully disagree regarding the Republicans. They offer no leadership, no plan, and they try to piggy back off their constituents anger to get themselves re elected. There is no ideology left in the Republican party (outside of Ron Paul and maybe a few others). The Republican Party has become the party of idiocy, of manipulating the religious right for political gain, and manipulating the inherent xenophobia amongst poor whites, who continue to vote for people who don’t give a good damn about doing anything they want done. And those same voters, under educated as they are, don’t realize that their lives would be dramatically different, and worse if the small government philosophy they claim to believe in were actually implemented. The middle class has been destroyed by the corporatist policies of so many so called small government conservatives who continue to vote for subsidies to big business, who create legislation to fit their corporate overlords, and then cash in with positions on the boards of these same companies. Republicans who give giant subsidies to farmers to grow corn for “national security” destroying small farmers and healthy foods, loading everything with high fructose corn syrup and lord knows what else that cause us to get sick, which means more profits for their overlords in the insurance and pharmaceutical industries.
The Republicans are full of crap. They are corporatists just like the democrats. They create division among the people in order to keep us distracted from what’s really going on. The wealthy elite who have first access to the printing presses get fabulously wealthy stealing from hard working people who don’t get the new money until its loss of value has destroyed any positive economic gain it could have brought.
The government, both parties, are bought by the wealthiest in this nation, essentially taking bribes to use the power of the law to enrich themselves and their buddies.
What we really need is to hit the reset button. We’re on an unsustainable path that only ends in disaster. The empire is failing as we speak, if we keep doing the same things, our civil society will collapse as well. Sometimes I wonder if that’s not what we’re seeing as we speak. All these regular folks woke up one morning and realized that debt wasn’t money, their house was bad collateral, and they who previously thought themselves completely secure are completely screwed. The old standard of living is never coming back, and honestly, I praise God for it. What an immoral place our western society has become, buying a new ipod every year, putting granite in our kitchens when half the world can barely feed itself.
Some kind of “christian nation” we are. The book of Amos comes to mind.
I am a nurse and have worked in those settings where people cannot pay for basic health care. Our system is broken. There are people who are working hard and they can’t afford to go to the doctor. They are not lazy and they are suffering…some dying much earlier in life than they would have if they had the option of some kind of care. We need to do something drastic. I know that we will all have to sacrifice in order for this to happen. Our health care will not look like it does now and that is not a bad thing. Even those of us who have insurance cannot afford the kind of health care we received 15 years ago. It will only get worse if it isn’t changed.
I also hope it changes the feel of health care as it exists now. I want doctors to care again. I am not saying that all doctors don’t care but there are many who much more worried about the bottom line and not about giving the best care possible….looking at the whole person and not just how quickly they can get them out of their office.
This is not a partisan issue….it is a people issue.
I keep wanting to say….Do not be afraid….Do not be afraid.
Amen, Julie! The whole system needs to be fixed from the ground up.
Justin, “Republicans who give giant subsidies to farmers to grow corn for “national security” destroying small farmers and healthy foods, loading everything with high fructose corn syrup and lord knows what else that cause us to get sick, which means more profits for their overlords in the insurance and pharmaceutical industries.” Seriously? And there was someone on the grassy knoll, too I bet. Gimmie a break!
I don’t necessarily disagree with your comments referring to leadership, BOTH parties in the pockets of others, and a seeming decline in the path of society. However, I can also assure you that the insurance industry would love to see the end of obesity! They also would love to see every uninsured person choose to be covered. With those two factors in play we would all see a significant lowering of premiums. In fact, that is why the insurance industry was the first to the table with President Obama brainstorming ideas to right the ship.
Julie –
I agree there needs to be change (my family and I went without insurance for a while). But what is currently being shoved down our throats by Obama and his cronies will only make things worse. Don’t you think that something this important deserves serious thought, debate and work?
Or do you think it should be rushed through (as Obama and the Democrats are trying to do)?
Justin –
I’m wearing my tin-foil hat, so I’m safe…..
The problem with politics is the battle for power. In this battle for power people will say and do any thing to advance their agenda. On both sides people become divisive in order to divide and conquer. The cause becomes more important than people it is suppose to help. It is no wonder that God did not want His people to have a government. No good can come from people fighting for power.
As Christians we are suppose to love one another but the moment politics come into play we will say and do things that are far from love, and think we are in the right. Even if we have the truth and do not love we are wrong.
Gee, Justin. Thanks for the pat on the back! I’ve been a registered Republican since the first day I was able to register to vote and am a bit taken aback by your opinion of me when you have no idea who or how I am. The Republican Party has become the party of idiocy, of manipulating the religious right for political gain, and manipulating the inherent xenophobia amongst poor whites, who continue to vote for people who don’t give a good damn about doing anything they want done. And those same voters, under educated as they are, don’t realize that their lives would be dramatically different, and worse if the small government philosophy they claim to believe in were actually implemented. Would you like to take a bit more care how you describe such a huge mass of our citizenry?
I wonder how much many of the uninsured pay for their cars, tvs, microwaves, name brand athletic shoes, cigarettes [same that I bought for 50 years] etc? In my case, I have no car payment [my little gal is soon to be sweet 15,]
my TV is also 15 years old, and my microwave about the same age. I buy my shoes at K-mart and Wal-mart, for instance and I also pay $404 a month for my health insurance and do so gratefully. My point being, when something is important enough for us, we’ll find a way in our budgets to obtain it. Please forgive my own broad brush – I know there are exceptions – but we know we Americans will find a way, even if we have to accept the government’s handout, we’ll get it.
And an apology – if my first statements gave the idea that I was referring in particular to our President when talking about 1939-1945,I wasn’t. What I’m referring to are the federal takeovers of our large industries, banks and now want the health care under their thumb too. It concerns me when our POTUS, not unlike 1939-1945 has openly called for us to ‘snitch’ on our neighbors and families if we speak openly against his proposals. Yes, I’m a bit nervous and really am hoping someone else will come up with a viable plan to improve our health care management rather than having it come from Rahm Emanuel and his brother Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel. Read the good doctor’s writings and you may find a source of my concern.
But enough from me. Yes, we do need changes in our health care system, but NO we do not need a single payer [being the government] plan and we certainly do not need to go even further into national debt to do so. That’s my say so, and now I’ll heed my president’s orders and will sit down & ‘shut up.’
How quickly the comments turned totally to Health Care Reform with apparently little thought paid to what McLaren discussed about how so many of us (probably on both sides) are letting our political feelings become our spiritual “truths”. That is more frightening than anything that will happen with health care.
I’d like to go on record as saying that I don’t know what’s going on with health care reform yet, and I don’t really believe anybody else does, either.
Can we just start at square one by agreeing that we need health care reform, it should have been done decades ago before costs got this out-of-control, that both major political parties are complicit in delaying it and, yes, each of them has a different set of preferences for reforming it?
Instead of regurgitating the same old political rhetoric that’s got us where we are, could we possibly propose some new ideas that might be acceptable and beneficial to all involved?
I’d like to propose introducing more professional layers to health care with proportional amounts of education, and making health care education more affordable. More specialized medical practitioners reporting to M.D.’s. That way we wouldn’t have fewer and fewer qualified doctors being paid 10x the national average wage because there aren’t enough of them, all of whom need the money in order to pay off eight years’ worth of advanced study, working 24-36 hour shifts with naps. We might thereby decrease the number of medical mistakes and deaths and injuries and malpractice suits that drive up the cost of insurance for everyone. Nobody has to legislate that. Congress could draft a strong recommendation with tax incentives if they wanted to.
I’d like to propose increasing the length of pharmaceutical patent protection so that companies who have done expensive research don’t have to make all their money up front (“gouge”) before losing the formulas to the generic manufacturers. We could legislate that.
What are some other ideas?
I’m with McLaren on this.
Just read the article. Was beyond one sided. I am still trying to deal with the fact that it was the expressed intention of the current administration to have a bill signed before the August recess. Why the rush? But having said that I do not trust either side.
Here’s an example of fear-mongering: http://www.flaguswhitehouse.com/. Everyone knows that Obama isn’t compiling an “enemy list” (Nixon); he’s asked for people to send false emails that fly around the internet to them so they can correct the misinformation. (What do you do when you have careless people saying ridiculous things such as the new death czars?) They want the emails so they can correct misperceptions; they aren’t asking for a list of email addresses.
I am for some form of National health care as a substantial option along side of private health care options and I share McLaren’s suspicions that many Christians from the conservative spectrum are becoming shaped more by the conservative political ideologies than Jesus BUT…
…I think McLaren would have more credibility if he would match his criticism of “conservative” Christians with criticism aimed towards the other side. From where I sit, the liberal and conservative streams of political ideology are just two sides of the same coin-a truely liberal coin that refuses too submitt itself to the kingdom reign of God, in fact, in practice it denies the reign of God.
There are certainly conservative Christians out there who support and participate in beliefs and practices that run completely against the nature of God’s kingdom (his will done on earth as it is in heaven), yet there are also just as many liberal Christians out there who also support and participate in ways that run against the will of God. When I lived in Ithaca, NY, I saw both of these extremes present and I am begining to see them again in the Denver metro area. The Kingdom of God stands against both sides.
As for health care…the question we should be asking is what option will allow us (the US) to equally provide reasonable health care too as many as possible. If private health care will do that (though I think history has proven this false) then let’s invest more in private health care. But if a national health care option would give us a better opportunity of achieving this goal, then as people who want justice and equality for all, we should invest in this option.
Grace and peace,
Rex
May I suggest a look at the following blog for some facts-based analysis, and also from a conservative economic perspective. My sense is that the author of this blog makes every effort to be fair in his analysis. You can decide for yourself.
http://keithhennessey.com/2009/08/14/debating-the-presidents-portsmouth-pitch/
Kathy,
I’ve never voted for anyone who wasn’t a Republican either.
I just refuse to vote now. I’m a part of a bigger kingdom, with a bigger agenda. One that doesn’t use deception and manipulation and “less bad” options to achieve justice.
A moment’s sober reflection will show that the government “option” will distort the market beyond recognition, Rex.
If for all levels of coverage the government “option” costs the insured MORE than the market, the government option will be superfluous; if it costs the insured the SAME as the market, it is likewise irrelevant; and if it costs the insured LESS than the market, given the unlimited capitalization that the government can realize by coercion (i. e., taxation), and given that the marginal cost savings are actually being buried in the socialized revenue stream supporting the system behind the scenes, people and employers will progressively abandon private insurance for the public “option.”
In particular, owners of small businesses will have no choice but to slop at the same trough as everyone else, to avoid taking on a systemic, competitive disadvantage.
If the president really wants competition, as he claims, he will urge the dismantling of whatever arbitrary barriers keep a person in one state from buying health insurance in another. That is a big pile of competition just waiting to be unleashed.
qb
Forgive me, Justin. I seem to be having difficulty clearly expressing my meaning. I said I’ve been a registered Republican since first I could register – and HAVE voted away from that party on occasion, some to the good and some not so good.
You are certainly within your rights as a child of the King and as a citizen of the USofA to vote here or not to vote here. Personally, I believe we can and maybe should. But that is strictly a personal belief and not one that should be levied on anyone else. It truly is a matter of conscience and choice. My conscience says that the only way I can help change things that need to be changed in our government is to make my voice heard, vote and then let my candidates know how I feel about the issues. Anyone that knows me well is aware of my bashful wall flower personality and difficulty speaking my opinion. Yeah! right! LOL
Seriously though and again, that’s just for me, not meant to impose on anyone else about voting. A great thing about this country – it’s your choice and you have the right and freedom to do so.
Qb,
If those who do not presently have access to adequate health care can gain such through a government option, then I am all for it.
Where is the “people/person” in this discussion? Not a generic person(s) but actual people with real lives and real health concerns. Very little in the conversation against a national health care option seems to consider the people/person.
All I want is for God’s will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. Somehow, I believe God’s will would be for every person to have adequate health care available even if that means having a national option.
Grace and peace,
Rex
The piont, Rex, is that your desire – which qb shares, provided that it does not force people (i. e., by fees or penalties for not complying) to get insurance if they do not want it, which describes a significant fraction of the 46MM or so people who are the focus of debate now – could be achieved with measured approaches far short of the monstrous power grab that the president originally set forth as HIS desire: a single-payer program.
Look, it’s indisputable that single-payer is what the president wants; always has, ever since we have records of him saying anything about the issue. But it is not necessary. And the intermediate steps he and others are proposing to move in that direction (only because he knows he can’t get there in one step, not because he doesn’t want to get there) are so destructive to the American experiment in personal liberty and limited government, we’ve got to fight them with every weapon at our disposal.
Creating systemic dependency on government is simply a bad idea; it is the national political equivalent of spoiling your children. Not all individual children end up rotten, but the whole enterprise is transformed away from personal industry and initiative and making hard budgetary choices.
Just yesterday my oldest son, seeing that his younger brother had decided to get up early and offer to do extra chores for pay so that he could accumulate enough cash to buy an RC car, asked if I would go ahead and buy him an RC car too, if he would commit to doing a commensurate set of chores over the next two weeks. The answer, of course, was no; he could buy the car when he had saved up enough to buy it with cash, two weeks from now.
We have gotten used to the idea that if we want something, we should have it, and without having to make hard, sacrificial choices. Those who are truly poor should be cared for adequately. But it does not require that we fundamentally restructure our national self-understanding and create fundamental rights out of those things we who are able should arrange our affairs wisely to obtain.
qb
This is a personal issue for me as we are a family that has health insurance problems. I am diabetic but my weight has been under control and my A1C perfect for 2 years. My now almost 7 year old has Noonan Syndrome & Hypertropic Cardiomyopathy. She takes a beta blocker and her condition is stable. She’s never had complications or surgery. We are self employed. For a while we qualified for CHips. For 6 months in early 2008 we didn’t have it and one emergency room visit for what was thought to be meningitis was over $4000. We’re still paying that off.
Now my 4 year old has been diagnosed wit Pervasive Development (Autism). We are self employed and the girls no longer qualify for CHIPS. While they were on CHIPS my husband and I didn’t have insurance. Private insurance wouldn’t touch me or my Noonan girl and now that my little one is PDD they won’t touch her. We had to create a group plan for our business (we only have 1 full time employee). We pay over $1000 a month for a $5000 deductible for each of us and the plan doesn’t cover speech or OT which is critical for PDD and autism issues.
I am not certain a National Healthcare plan is the key but reform is necessary. Middle america and small businesses are being hurt. We make a decent living but taxes and insurance eat up at least 17% of gross profit. Now we’re paying about $12000 a year for insurance. I drive a 2002 Mini Van, we do not have second car, we live on the north side of town as our mortgage is cheap here and we spend our extra money eating well and trying to get enough speech OT and tutoring in for our kids. So we’re hardly abusing the system or living high on the hog. We are lost in the system.
I would be willing to pay for insurance but what we are paying for is not a good plan but its all we can get as the better plans are upwards of $1500 a month. That’s 30% of our income.
Not everyone has a I want it mentality. I don’t believe we should always get what we want. We live frugally in an old house with an old car and not fancy technology gadgets. But is health care and being able to go to the Dr. a priviledge? Last year I didn’t take my diabetes medication for 4 months because it was $124 a month and I couldn’t afford it. IT wasn’t on a $5 list and we made too much to get help from the government. We do make sacrificial choices everyday.
My husband is the community pastor at the Mission. We understand that there are people who drain the system but where do people like us fit in who aren’t draining the system, who do work etc. Should I let my diabetes go because I can’t afford meds? Should my 4 year old not get speech or OT because we make too much to get help but can’t afford the $240 a week it would take for 3 appts (2 speech/1 OT) and we make $100 a year too much to get other help from the government. Where do people like that fit in?
Yes it’s personal for me – not a black or white issue. I am not trying to get sympathy – this is simply our lives and I wanted to put it out there so people would see there is way more to this issue and a lot more middle class main stream families who are affected by a lack of health care.
Double post sorry
Here’s what amazes me. What amazes me is folks who think the Federal government can make something better and more efficient. Go talk to a car dealer right now. In this little bitty thing called Cash for Clunkers – which is a tear drop on the side of a glacier compared to Obamacare – dealers were promised federal funds within 10 days of contract. As of 8/17/09 – well over 30 days into the program – most have not gotten one penny. One poor dealer in Dallas is owed over $1.0M and is in the process of obtaining bank loans until funds from DC arrive.
Imagine doctors, hospitals, etc. attempting to recoup $800+B annually (as compared to $2B for the car dealers) from DC. Just unreal that some are so naive to think 15 more layers of bureacracy will do anything other than make us all more dependent on Washington DC to survive.
Thank you Leah for sharing your story. It is sobering for me, as I realize that I take for granted the great healtcare plan my family has because of my husband’s employer. After about the first sentence or two of the majority of the other posts on here, all I here is “blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” The irony of all this “reasonable discussion” being called for is that it doesn’t come close to being reasonable or even a discussion. We talk about layers of bureacracy and condemn our government for it, and all the while, we fail to see the judgements and assumptions we make about others and what they deserve or don’t deserve. Healthcare reform and the discussions it requires are unbelievably complex, but the individual lives that are at stake and the notion of loving your neighbor are getting lost in the puffed-up rhetoric. My hope for you Leah, is that you and your family will find a way to get what you need for yourself and your children.
Fascism has only ever arisen when conservatives in a declining liberal democracy identified liberal elements of the society as the cause of their nation’s decline and have responded with calls to a return to bygone purity and national unity.
That’s the only way we’ve seen the rise of fascism.
There’s only one segment of U.S. civic life that comes even close exhibiting those features, and it’s not those who are agitating for universal healthcare coverage.
Many nations now have such coverage, and I cannot identify any of them that could reasonably be labeled fascist.
Thoughts from The “D.C. Writeup” by Ryan Fazio
France, Britain, Canada, Germany, and even that great beacon of utopian medicine, Cuba, would not have access to so many of today’s life-saving technologies, if it were not for America’s cruel, profiteering, archaic system. MRI’S, CT scans, ACE inhabitors, statins, mammography, hip and knee replacement–all of these are among the most important medical innovations of the past 25 years. And all of them were either invented or developed in the United States. America is responsible for about 80% of the entire world’s medical innovation. American scientists, or scientists who did their research in America, were awarded Nobel Prizes in 29 of the last 34 years. Public options would gradually crowd out private insurers and in the process destroy the competitive pressures that drive medical innovation. America’s system rewards innovation. For years, foreign countries have been freeloading off American medical innovations. We may be the black sheep of the world’s health care systems, but that does not mean we should go die our wool to resemble the rest of the flock.
Kelly, you said
“After about the first sentence or two of the majority of the other posts on here, all I here is “blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.””
First I would say hear, not here.
Second I would say, how is that dialogue? You’ve essentially just stated that you don’t care what anyone who disagrees with you has to say. That’s not Christian. Its not intellectually honest. And its not mature.
Christians should speak hope, love, and justice to the world out of faith in God: hope that our God whom we trust will achieve a loving community that works his justice. Much of the speech surrounding health-care changes in the U.S. trades in fear, and many Christians have been plainly complicit in it, telling other Christians and the rest of the world about how vulnerable they will be if they don’t protect what they have under the current system.
I think that this is microcosmic: so many other warnings against trusting God also stoke fears of scarcity and instability. Scripture records God’s prophets having to speak against abandoning God’s feasts and sabbaths, allying with foreign kings, and rising up against Roman occupiers. Those faithless actions were so appealing because faith appeared to leave Israel so vulnerable and helpless. In the face of that, God still called his people to a kind of love that casts out fear. He still does today.
Now, as to health-care policy, I don’t suggest blindly following what anyone says. I do suggest, however, circumspectly noting who is trying to scare you. Those who aren’t trying to scare you might be wrong — Polyannas and fools abound — but those who are trying to scare you are tempting you to trade God’s promise of abundance for a worldview of scarcity. There’s a tension between the seen, present scarcities and the unseen, promised abundance, but it’s a tension that Christians have pledged to maintain: it’s the tension of the cross, and it’s not negotiable for us.
The funny thing about faithless self-sufficiency is that it proves ephemeral: grasping for stability always ends in downfall. Jesus suggested going about it the backwards way, losing your life to save it. As others have pointed out, U.S. health care is a failing system: many receive little care, and many that do receive it are one illness away from dropped coverage and the choice between bankruptcy and uninsured treatment. Stability only appears to remain for the wealthy. Maybe Chrsitians can be true to their master and in this crisis witness to the backwards way that surrenders control for the sake of the poor. I don’t know what the right policy solution would look like, but I pray that we might speak to it out of hope instead of fear.
I’m in full agreement that some type of reform is needed. Why in the world must I pay $2,800 for a 5 minute colonoscopy (which I get to pay out of my pocket since my deductible is $5,000)? I should pay about 1/5 of that in the name of preventative medicine.
Conversely, the current Medicaid reimbursement rate to a highly skilled surgeon for a hip replacement is $1,500. While this procedure is skyrocketing in demand, most surgeons are wondering if they’d be better off getting into a more profitable business – like auto body work.
A few years back many health insurance companies included preventative care procedures like a colonscopy for all men who hit 50 (not far away for me). However, most have done away with it. Why? I don’t know – maybe they are really greedy as our President has stated dozens of times this week alone. But, IMO a federally-run system would almost assuredly make it harder, not easier, to receive preventative care.
Not taking issue with either side here, just a small point –
It seems to me that McLaren’s article is not so much about the healthcare reform issue, but it’s more about the ways in which we choose to engage those with whom with disagree. And there’s much improvement needed in that area from all of us.
For those who oppose some form of national health care, I would like to hear what alternative suggestions they have. I hear the arguments against the government providing a national health care system but I don’t hear any constructive suggestions on what to do with the health care situation if a national option. During the ’08 presidential campaign, I listened to both Democrat and Republican candidates discuss how they would reform health care. All I heard from the Republican side was do more of what we are already do – privatized health care. The problem is that our privatized health care approach has proven time and time again that it does not provide adequate health care for everyone and certainly not for every tax-paying, legally employed, citizen of the US. So what should we do? One option is some form of a nationalized health care system. If that is not a viable option, then what is? Offer up a solution, not just criticism.
Also, I noticed a commercial on Television opposing the Obama health care plan. The commercial stated that if our President has his way, it will be the government deciding our health care for us rather than ourselves and the doctors caring for us. Whether that is true or not, the commercial is misleading. It implies that under our privatized system, the patient and doctor have been in control of our health care options. Is that the truth? I wonder then why a Mother gives birth to her new-born but against her desire and her doctor’s desire, she is forced to leave the hospital a day or two before either she or her doctor would prefer? The truth is that under our current system, it is the HMO’s who dictate our health care options to us – that is, if you’re blessed enough to even have health insurance.
Grace and peace,
Rex
Justin,
You misunderstood me. I do care what others think and welcome disagreement…on any topic, not just this one. I’m perfectly comfortable with differeing opinions and opposing viewpoints. Jesus’s blood covers over all that. I simply feel like when the “Leahs” of the country speak out and tell their stories, they are often met with a lack of sympathy or compassion or understanding. Instead they get people who are quick to judge and assume and want to give their opinion about the whole thing…and sometimes,quite dogmatically. As I stated in my earlier post, the issues are real and extremely complex and I won’t pretend to know how to solve them. It just seems to me that none of them will be solved if the TONE of the discussion doesn’t change. Maybe you were offended by my “blah, blah, blah” comment. (And you were right…it wasn’t very mature.) If so, I apologize. It’s just hard to hear LOVE above all this noise…that’s what I took from the McLaren piece.
This system we have is so wrong. What did Jesus do when he worried about the care of his mother? He asked John to take care of her. When did not taking care of our families and our church members stop? You can just go and tell them to go and sign up for Medicaid or Medicare. We have stopped being responsible because “I pay my taxes and you can go get helped that way.” Our church helped a member get a kidney transplant by raising the $250,000. by having bake sales, galas, etc for her. Now that’s how I see Jesus caring. People caring for others. I think that would really help our attendance if we knew our brothers and sisters were there for us.
Thank you, Matt Elliott.
In the baseless rumour and scare tactic category we find:
Obama1: I mean, the chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80 percent of the total health care bill out here…. I think that there is going to have to be a conversation that is guided by doctors, scientists, ethicists. And then there is going to have to be a very difficult democratic conversation that takes place. It is very difficult to imagine the country making those decisions just through the normal political channels. And that’s part of why you have to have some independent group that can give you guidance.
Obama2: “I just lost my grandmother last year. I know what it’s like to watch somebody you love who’s aging deteriorate, and have to struggle with that,” Mr. Obama said. “So the notion that somehow I ran for public office, or members of Congress are in this so they can go around pulling the plug on grandma? I mean, when you start making arguments like that, that’s simply dishonest.”
So who do you believe? Obama1 or Obama2?
Wake up people. This has nothing to do with the quality of your healthcare. It’s all about power and control. To believe otherwise is to be naive.
Not everyone who pays taxes qualifies for Medicaid or Medicare. We made about $100 too much for CHIPS to renew in May. I would have continued uninsured. I am not sure I think a national health plan is the perfect scenario. But there has to be a better plan. I pay my taxes too and still insurance is a problem because we are self employed. We are penalized for pre-existing conditions that are under control.
Leah, very compelling stuff you shared. Up until two months ago, our family of five had to purchase our own insurance. None of us have any pre-existing conditions, like you mentioned you have to deal with. Our “so called” insurance had somewhere between a $5000-$10,000 deductible (depending on the year). We NEVER once met it or used the insurance. Hilarious if not so depressing. Here’s a laughable insight into a broken system… seven years ago, we had our third child. Our insurance policy OF COURSE didn’t cover maternity, so I marched myself into the hospital business office and told them I wanted a CASH PAY DISCOUNT. Wanna guess what I paid? ONE FIFTH of my bill. No kidding. Because I was willing to write a check, they waived 4/5 of my bill. Seriously? As we watched our premiums increase on this horrible policy that covered virtually nothing, I threatened several times to just drop all health insurance. I was already paying the full price at the doctor and for meds (and OFTEN refusing prescriptions because of cost) and if we had an emergency, an ER really wouldn’t turn us away, right? Yes… there are major problems at all levels of health care. I have NO idea what the answer is.
Rex,
I’ve got an alternative (and I agree with you, there are many, Sean Hannity comes to mind, who have no ideas and seek to obstruct for the sake of obstructing) that you might be interested in.
Insurance should be for catastrophes. Lets get back to that, rather than insurance for any sort of medical payments I make. I don’t have insurance for oil changes, replacing tires, new roof, pair of jeans. I know those things will need to be paid for at some time, and so I use my money wisely (not stingy, but wisely) so that when I need those things, I can pay for them. I have insurance for things like fire or storm damage, car accidents, and other things that are nearly impossible to anticipate and pay for.
The reform I would like to see would be promoting catastrophic coverage, which would fix one of the huge problems in this country, bankruptcy due to medical bills. Even if we had a personal tax on wages to pay into the pool for the catastrophic coverage for everyone. I could live with that.
Second, encourage HSAs (health savings accounts) to pay for routine medical stuff. Office visits, medicines, physicals, etc. We know that stuff is going to occur, and we can (and should) put away a bit of our paychecks every month (and you can do so tax free in your hsa) to take care of these things. Employers could even do a dollar match on HSA accounts (and government could fund HSAs for those who are at a certain level below the poverty line).
Third, get rid of the tax incentives for companies to provide broad based coverage. They are a big part of the problem of rising health care costs. People are detached from the cost of the services they receive. This is called moral hazard (check it out on google if you aren’t familiar). It causes prices to rise, but the rising prices are not felt by those receiving the services, which means price cannot check demand leading to higher and higher costs.
The plan I’ve put forward above causes price discovery. It allows me to choose which doctor I want to go to, based on the prices they are charging. Just as you have Aldi, Kroger, and Whole Foods, doctors will create different modesl of service to meet different demographics, and will find ways to make things more affordable. Right now, that doesn’t happen cause those that do have insurance pay 20 dollars everywhere they go, regardless of the actual charges to the insurance companies.
Leah,
I’m assuming you used an agent to set up your group plan. Have you discussed all options with that person. I know in Texas coverage is available for anyone. For instance, if there are health issues and no other options then you can join the risk pool and be covered. But, by all means, remained covered! Even if it is a ridiculously high deductible plan that has no copays for routine stuff. Reason for this is that the pre-existing condition limitation is WAIVED for those with continuous coverage.
Justin, good ideas. This addresses health costs, not just insurance costs. Supply and demand principles will work if we all take the time to be good stewards and shop for the best valued physician services, like we do for almost all other things.
Any thoughts on personal responsibility? How do we address the health costs/care driven by obesity, smoking, sedentary lifestyles, etc..?
Three plans: England or Canada or Switzerland? http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/17/opinion/17krugman.html?_r=1&em
Justin,
Thank you for putting forth a constructive alternative. I like the idea of paying for a doctor’s visit out of pocket much like I pay for an oil change on my car. However without insurance co-pay’s, a general doctor’s visit would cost considerably more than an oil change cost. That is a cost that a family of 4-5 living on 40,000 a year probably cannot afford. Secondly, having a “catastrophic coverage” will not work so long as private health insurance companies can either run the insurance rates sky high or outright refuse coverage because of an individual’s health status (i.e., preexisting clause). There are too many examples of individuals now who cannot aquire health insurance either because the rate is so expensive or because they are denied health insurance — all because the health insurance company, which is in the business of making money, deems that individual to have health issues making their coverage a risky and unwise investment. This, I believe, would face a serious challenge with a national health care option.
Let it be said that while I am for a national health care plan, I am also for the continuation of private health care options to co-exist with a national option. Why? In true democratic fashion, this still leaves every individual with an option…if they prefer to have private coverage rather than utilize a national health care plan then they have that choice available to them.
Any ways, thanks for the constructive and Christian dialogue.
Grace and peace,
Rex
C – Yes in Texas they have Texas Health Risk but if you look at the rates they were about the same for me and my daughter when I add the cost of private insurance for my husband and other daughter. Now in May my youngest was diagnosed on the autistic spectrum so that makes the Health Risk quotes even higher. The current rates would have us pay $1035 a month for a $5K deductible then I would still have to have private insurance for my husband. So it’s quite a bit more.
http://www.txhealthpool.com/
How high above the standard rate must the Pool?s rates be set?
State law requires the Pool to set rates twice as high as the Standard Risk Rate.
Are there any other factors that impact the Pool’s rates?
In addition to the semi-annual trend adjustments to rates, the Pool is also required to make periodic adjustments to the premium rate table to reflect changes related to certain rating categories, including deductible plan, gender, age, tobacco-user status, and geographic location to more appropriately relate the Pool’s rates to the Standard Risk Rate and to reflect the Pool’s actual claims experience.
I have worked with 3 agents for over a year to get quotes. They are just across the board high because we are a small business so there is nothing really to help us absorb the costs. We looked at working with a payroll company but their workman comp rates are higher as we can exempt my husband and I if we don’t go through them so even though the insurance was GREAT we made up the difference through workers comp. We got quotes from three different ages for BCBS, First Care, Aeta and Assurant.
We have had our small group policy since May and scrap to make our payment before the due date. It’s ridiculous it’s so high. But it’s the industry.