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	<title>Comments on: Desperately Seeking Legalism</title>
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	<description>Sniffing out the work of God in the world...</description>
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		<title>By: Deb</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/05/30/desperately-seeking-legalism/comment-page-2#comment-80013</link>
		<dc:creator>Deb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 23:44:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2061#comment-80013</guid>
		<description>Tribe(s)? Strange labelling system or analogy, for what, and why, exactly? Is it a way of pointing to acceptance of and grace-sharing with a different community of believers in Christ, or yet just more religious and spiritual condescension?  

I am seeing some American evangelical Christians using this terminology more and more. It is as if &#039;believers&#039; who belong to one &#039;tribe&#039; are vetting the belief systems in other ‘tribes’. This just seems weird to me, as most tribes I have known about, outside the context of &#039;church&#039;, have built up rather exclusive structural societies/communities, with their own language, culture, etc. They are hardly inclusive. But then, out of America, more than any other nation historically, a massive amount of religious Christian denominations and ‘non-denominational’ groups just keeps evolving. Tribal warfare or brotherly love?

‘… And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.’ God’s grace is wonderfully universal, is it not? How much more freeing can it get?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tribe(s)? Strange labelling system or analogy, for what, and why, exactly? Is it a way of pointing to acceptance of and grace-sharing with a different community of believers in Christ, or yet just more religious and spiritual condescension?  </p>
<p>I am seeing some American evangelical Christians using this terminology more and more. It is as if &#8216;believers&#8217; who belong to one &#8216;tribe&#8217; are vetting the belief systems in other ‘tribes’. This just seems weird to me, as most tribes I have known about, outside the context of &#8216;church&#8217;, have built up rather exclusive structural societies/communities, with their own language, culture, etc. They are hardly inclusive. But then, out of America, more than any other nation historically, a massive amount of religious Christian denominations and ‘non-denominational’ groups just keeps evolving. Tribal warfare or brotherly love?</p>
<p>‘… And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.’ God’s grace is wonderfully universal, is it not? How much more freeing can it get?</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/05/30/desperately-seeking-legalism/comment-page-2#comment-79970</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 21:12:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>A few of these comments need to be signed:

Sincerely,
Christ&#039;s Devoted Follower Opposing Paul in Colossae/Galatia</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few of these comments need to be signed:</p>
<p>Sincerely,<br />
Christ&#8217;s Devoted Follower Opposing Paul in Colossae/Galatia</p>
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		<title>By: Lannie Cox</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/05/30/desperately-seeking-legalism/comment-page-2#comment-79967</link>
		<dc:creator>Lannie Cox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 17:52:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2061#comment-79967</guid>
		<description>As people, we range between the poles of law and lawlessness.  My natural bend is toward legalism.  I think in this conversation to find God&#039;s way we have to admit the tention in scripture between freedom and slavery; obedience and faith.  Afew thoughts: &quot;Law is for Lawbreakers,&quot; John 1: 14, 17 Jesus came full of grace and truth and to bring grace and truth.  Full of both?  &quot;&quot;For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say &quot;No&quot; to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.&quot; (Titus 2:11-15 NIV)

If we seek truth in exchange for grace it becomes legalism and seases to be truth.  If we seek grace in exchange for truth, it becomes tolerence (not a good word in this context) and seases to be grace.  The royal law is to love our neighbor as ourselves.  If only I could stay on target with that legalism.  &quot;Who will save me from this body of death?&quot;

This is an important conversation that can&#039;t lands safely in a definitive answer of rules to follow. And so begins the conversation again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As people, we range between the poles of law and lawlessness.  My natural bend is toward legalism.  I think in this conversation to find God&#8217;s way we have to admit the tention in scripture between freedom and slavery; obedience and faith.  Afew thoughts: &#8220;Law is for Lawbreakers,&#8221; John 1: 14, 17 Jesus came full of grace and truth and to bring grace and truth.  Full of both?  &#8220;&#8221;For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say &#8220;No&#8221; to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope&#8211;the glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.&#8221; (Titus 2:11-15 NIV)</p>
<p>If we seek truth in exchange for grace it becomes legalism and seases to be truth.  If we seek grace in exchange for truth, it becomes tolerence (not a good word in this context) and seases to be grace.  The royal law is to love our neighbor as ourselves.  If only I could stay on target with that legalism.  &#8220;Who will save me from this body of death?&#8221;</p>
<p>This is an important conversation that can&#8217;t lands safely in a definitive answer of rules to follow. And so begins the conversation again.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Wiles</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/05/30/desperately-seeking-legalism/comment-page-2#comment-79963</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Wiles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 18:29:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2061#comment-79963</guid>
		<description>Henry Cloud says it better than I can, but a lot of the turmoil families and churches are facing today is not a product of too much legalism, but too little.

The truth is, to lead healthy, productive lives we need boundaries.  We need rules.  We need authority, structure, predictability.  We need to be able to trust, to know who and what we can count on.  We need to know where the lines are, and to know that there are consequences for crossing them.

To &quot;find rest&quot; in that structure is not an addiction to something harmful but a gracious gift of a loving God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Henry Cloud says it better than I can, but a lot of the turmoil families and churches are facing today is not a product of too much legalism, but too little.</p>
<p>The truth is, to lead healthy, productive lives we need boundaries.  We need rules.  We need authority, structure, predictability.  We need to be able to trust, to know who and what we can count on.  We need to know where the lines are, and to know that there are consequences for crossing them.</p>
<p>To &#8220;find rest&#8221; in that structure is not an addiction to something harmful but a gracious gift of a loving God.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/05/30/desperately-seeking-legalism/comment-page-2#comment-79962</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 18:03:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2061#comment-79962</guid>
		<description>Thank God we&#039;re not like those legalists...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank God we&#8217;re not like those legalists&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Rich</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/05/30/desperately-seeking-legalism/comment-page-2#comment-79956</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 20:09:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2061#comment-79956</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the clarification on legalism.  I totally agree that following rules doesn&#039;t save.  However, my response to God&#039;s grace is a strong desire to do His will as a thank you.  

I have seen the word used to indicate a following of rules regardless of one&#039;s motive.  It is thus used in the context of trying to eliminate all rules.  This is some people&#039;s definition of freedom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the clarification on legalism.  I totally agree that following rules doesn&#8217;t save.  However, my response to God&#8217;s grace is a strong desire to do His will as a thank you.  </p>
<p>I have seen the word used to indicate a following of rules regardless of one&#8217;s motive.  It is thus used in the context of trying to eliminate all rules.  This is some people&#8217;s definition of freedom.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff W</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/05/30/desperately-seeking-legalism/comment-page-1#comment-79951</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 15:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2061#comment-79951</guid>
		<description>If Pharisees are to be our prime model for legalism, then we should note that their example shows us that legalism has at its core an obsession with self that is dressed in a veneer of dedication to God.  Are you lacking deliverance?  Romans in your holy city?  God has promised good things to those who obey, &lt;i&gt;so you must not be obeying well enough.&lt;/i&gt;

The stakes are high: death or prosperity.  You feel &lt;i&gt;so good&lt;/i&gt; about yourself when you keep clear of the boundary of the law (as others here have attested) because you are bringing God&#039;s prosperity to your people.  And when you stumble, you feel like you&#039;re in the grave, because you are bringing death.  But restoration might be on the horizon, and there&#039;s nothing as good as the next high.

God has done his part, and the rest is up to you.  It&#039;s no surprise, then, that your inconstancy inevitably leads to a roller-coaster experience.

The real evil comes when people (often the rich ones) master the game: they learn to &lt;i&gt;hide&lt;/i&gt; their roller coasters and then sit in judgment of those who can&#039;t hide their sins as well.  It helps the masters of the game if the sins that they harp on have obvious external signs.  Then the poor and sinners are no longer covenant family but pawns in a game.

Jesus, you&#039;ll note, is not very happy with this state of affairs.

The problem starts when we turn in on ourselves and view the law as our guarantee of divine favor, our way to stay safe.  That&#039;s the very kind of magical worldview that the Jews were supposed to reject.  We should, instead, trust that &lt;i&gt;God&lt;/i&gt; saves --- indeed, that he &lt;i&gt;wants&lt;/i&gt; to save --- and that his law is truly his &lt;i&gt;Torah&lt;/i&gt;, his gracious &lt;i&gt;instruction&lt;/i&gt; to those he has already claimed and redeemed.  Grace is not lawlessness; it is peaceful, trusting rest in God&#039;s promise that the covenant is secure, from which springs our devotion to his mission for the world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Pharisees are to be our prime model for legalism, then we should note that their example shows us that legalism has at its core an obsession with self that is dressed in a veneer of dedication to God.  Are you lacking deliverance?  Romans in your holy city?  God has promised good things to those who obey, <i>so you must not be obeying well enough.</i></p>
<p>The stakes are high: death or prosperity.  You feel <i>so good</i> about yourself when you keep clear of the boundary of the law (as others here have attested) because you are bringing God&#8217;s prosperity to your people.  And when you stumble, you feel like you&#8217;re in the grave, because you are bringing death.  But restoration might be on the horizon, and there&#8217;s nothing as good as the next high.</p>
<p>God has done his part, and the rest is up to you.  It&#8217;s no surprise, then, that your inconstancy inevitably leads to a roller-coaster experience.</p>
<p>The real evil comes when people (often the rich ones) master the game: they learn to <i>hide</i> their roller coasters and then sit in judgment of those who can&#8217;t hide their sins as well.  It helps the masters of the game if the sins that they harp on have obvious external signs.  Then the poor and sinners are no longer covenant family but pawns in a game.</p>
<p>Jesus, you&#8217;ll note, is not very happy with this state of affairs.</p>
<p>The problem starts when we turn in on ourselves and view the law as our guarantee of divine favor, our way to stay safe.  That&#8217;s the very kind of magical worldview that the Jews were supposed to reject.  We should, instead, trust that <i>God</i> saves &#8212; indeed, that he <i>wants</i> to save &#8212; and that his law is truly his <i>Torah</i>, his gracious <i>instruction</i> to those he has already claimed and redeemed.  Grace is not lawlessness; it is peaceful, trusting rest in God&#8217;s promise that the covenant is secure, from which springs our devotion to his mission for the world.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray B.</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/05/30/desperately-seeking-legalism/comment-page-1#comment-79950</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 14:56:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2061#comment-79950</guid>
		<description>Dee ,
 Obeying GOD is not legalism. It is living out the life free in Christ. It is being motivated, inspired, and encouraged by grace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dee ,<br />
 Obeying GOD is not legalism. It is living out the life free in Christ. It is being motivated, inspired, and encouraged by grace.</p>
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		<title>By: Kathy</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/05/30/desperately-seeking-legalism/comment-page-1#comment-79944</link>
		<dc:creator>Kathy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 05:01:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2061#comment-79944</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; nicejoest 

Somebody said this is the message of Romans. More dramatically, the message of Galatians.&lt;/i&gt;

And, if I might add, first set down by Jesus in what we call The Sermon On the Mount.  &lt;i&gt;&quot;You have heard it said [legalism]..., but I say, [grace].&lt;/i&gt;  What more perfect example of man&#039;s setting down rules to follow vs Jesus proclaiming the true heart of the matter.

Beautiful post, Mike! Thank you!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> nicejoest </p>
<p>Somebody said this is the message of Romans. More dramatically, the message of Galatians.</i></p>
<p>And, if I might add, first set down by Jesus in what we call The Sermon On the Mount.  <i>&#8220;You have heard it said [legalism]&#8230;, but I say, [grace].</i>  What more perfect example of man&#8217;s setting down rules to follow vs Jesus proclaiming the true heart of the matter.</p>
<p>Beautiful post, Mike! Thank you!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Bobbie</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/05/30/desperately-seeking-legalism/comment-page-1#comment-79943</link>
		<dc:creator>Bobbie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 04:49:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2061#comment-79943</guid>
		<description>Legalism fuels my pride, tweaks an arrogant/better than viewpoint, justifies me to be argumental and defensive, places a stone wall across my heart that separates me from compassion.  I am blocked from humility expressed in a heartwrenching cry out for deliverance and confessing my utter dependence on God&#039;s grace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Legalism fuels my pride, tweaks an arrogant/better than viewpoint, justifies me to be argumental and defensive, places a stone wall across my heart that separates me from compassion.  I am blocked from humility expressed in a heartwrenching cry out for deliverance and confessing my utter dependence on God&#8217;s grace.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith Roberts</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/05/30/desperately-seeking-legalism/comment-page-1#comment-79941</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith Roberts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 03:21:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2061#comment-79941</guid>
		<description>Are some concerned that tirades against legalism are sometimes a cover for lawlessness? Is that a valid concern?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are some concerned that tirades against legalism are sometimes a cover for lawlessness? Is that a valid concern?</p>
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		<title>By: lc</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/05/30/desperately-seeking-legalism/comment-page-1#comment-79940</link>
		<dc:creator>lc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 01:51:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2061#comment-79940</guid>
		<description>I was raised a legalist. I remember as a child feeling the most wonderful feeling in the world. It was the feeling that I was in the place where all of the right people were. I hate to admit it, but I often long to be back at that place, but I know I can&#039;t. To be honest though,  I can&#039;t deny that it really feels nice and safe.  Today there are times where I feel like a lost soul. Mike, I really appreciate your post. I have thought about off and on since it first went up.  I want to say that I was a legalist, but  I know it is still a struggle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was raised a legalist. I remember as a child feeling the most wonderful feeling in the world. It was the feeling that I was in the place where all of the right people were. I hate to admit it, but I often long to be back at that place, but I know I can&#8217;t. To be honest though,  I can&#8217;t deny that it really feels nice and safe.  Today there are times where I feel like a lost soul. Mike, I really appreciate your post. I have thought about off and on since it first went up.  I want to say that I was a legalist, but  I know it is still a struggle.</p>
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		<title>By: Fajita</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/05/30/desperately-seeking-legalism/comment-page-1#comment-79939</link>
		<dc:creator>Fajita</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 01:23:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2061#comment-79939</guid>
		<description>Legalism privides a comforting sense of certainty and there is no place that one can go to escape it - for we carry it with us. Was Christ not placed on trial by the Grand Inquisitor by foolishly giving humans freedom? Why burden people with freedom? 

When faced with the option of freedom, I know that fear so often sends me running for comfort - to be told what to do, who to be, how to think and feel. It is constantly the fight of my life to detect legalism in myself, muster the courage to name it, and rally the strength to oppose it. 

Legalism forcefully stamps a canned identity on a soul - an entity inheretly made to create.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Legalism privides a comforting sense of certainty and there is no place that one can go to escape it &#8211; for we carry it with us. Was Christ not placed on trial by the Grand Inquisitor by foolishly giving humans freedom? Why burden people with freedom? </p>
<p>When faced with the option of freedom, I know that fear so often sends me running for comfort &#8211; to be told what to do, who to be, how to think and feel. It is constantly the fight of my life to detect legalism in myself, muster the courage to name it, and rally the strength to oppose it. </p>
<p>Legalism forcefully stamps a canned identity on a soul &#8211; an entity inheretly made to create.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/05/30/desperately-seeking-legalism/comment-page-1#comment-79938</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 00:26:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2061#comment-79938</guid>
		<description>What worries me most are questions like those raised by a few here.  Does wanting to obey God mean one is a legalist?   Does one wanting to be a Christ-follower of the serious variety mean that this person is a legalist?

No.  It&#039;s frightening that the question is even asked.

Read the post again.  It&#039;s not about the desire for obedience (a beautiful thing, according to psalms like Psalm 1).  It&#039;s about a yearning -- an addiction -- to find &quot;rest&quot; in legalism.

Want to identify it?  

Look for a serious yearning for more authority (husband, father, church leaders).  Listen to the language.  Are we looking for bosses?  Are we anxious for another human to tell us what we have to do?  Is there an unhealthy interest in structure?

Look for a disgust toward broken people.  

Look for anxiety, depression, and guilt -- a merry-go-round of emotions that never stops.

Look for the alternating fronts of pride and low self-esteem.  Look for a lack of joy, compassion, gentleness, and kindness.

Look for self-justifying questions like, &quot;Shouldn&#039;t we care what God says?&quot;  Such questions are hiding deep things quite often.  The questioner &quot;doth protest too much, methinks.&quot;

It&#039;s not a possession of any one tribe.  As I said in the post, the irony is that many people who claim they&#039;re needing more freedom or more experience of the Spirit (or better/higher theology?) are actually going deeper into their addiction.  Some of the most grace-talking places are the most legalistic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What worries me most are questions like those raised by a few here.  Does wanting to obey God mean one is a legalist?   Does one wanting to be a Christ-follower of the serious variety mean that this person is a legalist?</p>
<p>No.  It&#8217;s frightening that the question is even asked.</p>
<p>Read the post again.  It&#8217;s not about the desire for obedience (a beautiful thing, according to psalms like Psalm 1).  It&#8217;s about a yearning &#8212; an addiction &#8212; to find &#8220;rest&#8221; in legalism.</p>
<p>Want to identify it?  </p>
<p>Look for a serious yearning for more authority (husband, father, church leaders).  Listen to the language.  Are we looking for bosses?  Are we anxious for another human to tell us what we have to do?  Is there an unhealthy interest in structure?</p>
<p>Look for a disgust toward broken people.  </p>
<p>Look for anxiety, depression, and guilt &#8212; a merry-go-round of emotions that never stops.</p>
<p>Look for the alternating fronts of pride and low self-esteem.  Look for a lack of joy, compassion, gentleness, and kindness.</p>
<p>Look for self-justifying questions like, &#8220;Shouldn&#8217;t we care what God says?&#8221;  Such questions are hiding deep things quite often.  The questioner &#8220;doth protest too much, methinks.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not a possession of any one tribe.  As I said in the post, the irony is that many people who claim they&#8217;re needing more freedom or more experience of the Spirit (or better/higher theology?) are actually going deeper into their addiction.  Some of the most grace-talking places are the most legalistic.</p>
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		<title>By: Q</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2009/05/30/desperately-seeking-legalism/comment-page-1#comment-79936</link>
		<dc:creator>Q</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 22:26:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://preachermike.com/?p=2061#comment-79936</guid>
		<description>Rich, 

Being a legalist isn&#039;t about following rules -- we all do that, though some follow ones different to others.  Being a legalist is trusting that the rules -- whichever rules you follow -- will save you.

If you follow every single precept you see before but you know that your salvation is in Christ alone and not in your ability to follow a formula and thereby &quot;achieve&quot; salvation, I wouldn&#039;t really say you&#039;re a legalist.  

Mike is addressing all the legalist attitudes we all fall into, whether it&#039;s church 3x/week, non-instrumental, &quot;freedom in worship,&quot; being &quot;edgy&quot; or whatever -- all the things people trust in with the hope that these rules, whether they look like rules or not, will save them.  I think his point is that we can&#039;t play &quot;spot the legalist&quot; by checking to see who flips out at the mention of a piano.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rich, </p>
<p>Being a legalist isn&#8217;t about following rules &#8212; we all do that, though some follow ones different to others.  Being a legalist is trusting that the rules &#8212; whichever rules you follow &#8212; will save you.</p>
<p>If you follow every single precept you see before but you know that your salvation is in Christ alone and not in your ability to follow a formula and thereby &#8220;achieve&#8221; salvation, I wouldn&#8217;t really say you&#8217;re a legalist.  </p>
<p>Mike is addressing all the legalist attitudes we all fall into, whether it&#8217;s church 3x/week, non-instrumental, &#8220;freedom in worship,&#8221; being &#8220;edgy&#8221; or whatever &#8212; all the things people trust in with the hope that these rules, whether they look like rules or not, will save them.  I think his point is that we can&#8217;t play &#8220;spot the legalist&#8221; by checking to see who flips out at the mention of a piano.</p>
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