From Eugene Peterson:
The churches of the Revelation show us that churches are not Victorian parlors where everything is always picked up and ready for guests. They are messy family rooms. Entering a person’s house unexpectedly, we are sometimes met with a barrage of apologies. St. John does not apologize. Things are out of order, to be sure, but that is what happens to churches that are lived in. They are not show rooms. They are living rooms, and if the persons living in them are sinners, there are going to be clothes scattered about, handprints on the woodwork, and mud on the carpet. For as long as Jesus insists on calling sinners and not the righteous to repentance – and there is no indication as yet that he has changed his policy in that regard – churches are going to be an embarrassment to the fastidious and an affront to the upright.
Good words. I find myself struggling sometimes with the notion of evangelising only to bring others into our mess. But it seems it should be a mess or there would be no reason for any of it to exist.
I think we sell ourselves short (and misread the text) when we speak like this. Sure, John didn’t apologize. He did, however, quote Christ as saying, “you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,” “If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place,” and most frighteningly, “I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.”
I’m all for warm and fuzzy, but I’m afraid Peterson may be missing the point. The call is for radical repentence from sin, not capitulation to sin.
Are our churches our living rooms? To some extent, but unlike our living rooms, there are very real consequences for not straightening up our churches in short order.
Interesting.
I wonder if Eugene Peterson ever saw the TV show “Clean House.” Some pigsties need to be cleaned…and they can.
Baron: I find it interesting that you interpret messiness as unrepentant sin–certainly we must be ever-diligent in walking in His steps, but it is the blood of Jesus that does the true cleansing. I perceive messiness as the tranparency of struggles with sin, not the flaunting of unrepentant sin. If all of one’s time is spent whitewashing the mess, instead of practicing transparent repentance, then one is no better off than a Pharisee.
Awesome quote. Thanks for posting it, Mike.
If Peterson’s words are “warm and fuzzy” to you, methinks you are misreading them. Eugene is saying, quite simply and straight-forwardly, that churches are people, and people are broken. Hopefully broken people being renewed day by day, but broken nevertheless. If St. John or Peterson were making excuses for the church, they would be permissive of staying broken … but that defeats the very call of the gospel.
Your comment leads me to think you differentiate the broken Christ-follower from the collection of broken Christ-followers called the church. Like church is somewhere we go rather than a way of living and a called-out community. “Church” is a peculiar people participating together in the Way, the Eden-shaped way of life God intended. Defined as such (and I think there is ample biblical backing here…), church certainly is a living room.
I’d go a step further, however, and say that certain communities serve as showrooms as well. It may not be their primary function, but Christian communities down through the ages have attracted adherents because outsiders see a distinctly different way of living — life under the rule of God. The missional communities set up by the Celts all across Ireland come to mind…
Instead of always defending the church to those outside its walls, what if we confessed to them? What if we said: “You know what, I have no answers for the church’s involvement in the Crusades … the Holocaust … Apartheid … segregation … abuse scandals … But the church is ‘in process’ … she hasn’t arrived. Day by day she is being restored to her Lover, but it’s slow-going. I know it’s hard, but please extend us some grace. We’re learning how to do the same.”
My guess is that there are folks out there who want to be a part of a transparent community like that … where things are messy, but getting better day by day.
It seems to me that …
The church, the children of God and siblings to Jesus, should live openly and fully before the world as to invite all to see the beauty of God’s family as He designed it to be.
The purposeful and true everyday living leaves little time for keeping up the front or hiding behind protective walls.
We, the church, the kingdom, have a great privilege to represent OUR KINGDOM FAMILY to God’s unredeemed children.
And precious little time to serve and touch the hurting and offended.
I love it when I see a Kingdom church family using its time, energy, skills and giftings to bless and not impress the world.
The blood cleans up the messy mess of sinners and churches. It is only by his grace!
Great quote, and great thoughts, Steve-I couldn’t agree more. I think we have tried to take the term “church” and wrap it all up neatly in a box with a bow, place it in a building a few times a week, and say “there you go”…but that was never the way God intended it to be. The church is made up of His people-messy as we are-but when we walk into the changing room of God, He cleans up that mess and sees beauty in the midst. There is beauty in the middle of the mess, and that is what we should be calling people to. The living room should embody its name-as we LIVE in God’s love, mercy, and grace being ever transformed by who He is and who we are Him. If we waited until everything was perfect and cleaned up, then we would never be inviting anyone in and the Good News would not be spread-but that is the beauty in the MESSage
Great quote Mike! Steve, I always love your words of wisdom, and the spirit in which you deliver them.
I love hearing Walling talk about our terrible MESS, a MESS so bad that only a MESSiah could take care of it.
DU
Yep, David-that is exactly what I was thinking (about Steve and Walling talking about the MESS and the MESSiah)!
Jeff has a whole sermon on this and I find it so reassuring. We are a messy brood.
Two quick points:
1. I didn’t confuse buildings for the fellowship of believers at large. When I talk about “not straightening up our churches,” I was merely extending the metaphor as given.
2. I agree that the blood is grace-given, but the mystery of grace is cheaply tossed around at times, and I sense a bit of that in these comments. Notice, for example, that the last of quotes of Christ I borrowed from Revelation ends in “I will repay each of you according to your deeds.”
“I agree that the blood is grace-given, but the mystery of grace is cheaply tossed around at times, and I sense a bit of that in these comments. Notice, for example, that the last of quotes of Christ I borrowed from Revelation ends in “I will repay each of you according to your deeds.””
Baron, I agree 100%
Petersen’s finger points to not making room for the messed up people of the world. Many times we think there is not room for the addicted, the adulterer, the homosexual, the homeless because the mess in their lives will mess up the church and the church building. These messes are time consuming, exhausting and many times the helper gets hurt. What is warm and fuzzy about this indictment of present day Christianity, That our need for order supplants other’s need for Jesus?
Anyone who believes that Peterson is giving sin a pass in Mike’s excerpt obviously hasn’t read much of Peterson in the first place. It’s laughable.
To get a feel for what Peterson is getting at, give an ear to Casting Crowns’ “Happy Plastic People,” and you’ll have a bit of a head start.
qb
Does anyone else get the irony here: a young man (who has a propensity for worrying about details of grammar and wording) challenging Eugene Peterson because he doesn’t get it? “I’m afraid Peterson may be missing the point.”
First, may I suggest you go to http://www.amazon.com and order about ten books by Eugene Peterson. Read them. Your life will be richer and deeper.
Second, the young attorneys in the New Testament didn’t care much for Jesus, either. They thought he was missing the point. He was too messy.
*chuckle*
AlGuy, that ball was cleanly struck. qb
Christians should be too big to belittle.
Three more quick points:
1. Chaplain G - I disagree that Peterson is talking about making room for messy guests. His quote speaks of being “ready for guests,” that “things are out of order” (not will be out of order, but “are” out of order), and “if the persons living in them are sinners….”
He’s talking about the present occupants of the living room - not future occupants.
2. AlGuy - If you think I am about grammar and spelling, you should see when logical fallacies are employed against me… Take yours, for example. There were two in your first paragraph.
First, there was the ad hominem attack on me [a young man (who has a propensity for worrying about details of grammar and wording)]. Who cares how old I am? Is 28 really that young? If it is, does education and experience make up for youth? Is it impossible for a “young man” who is concerned about “details of grammar and wording” to make a valid, logical point? Are “details of grammar and wording” the basis for all language, and by exentsion, debate? How is truth conveyed in text if not by “grammar and wording”?
Then there was the irrational appeal to authority (”challenging Eugene Peterson because he doesn’t get it”). Is that your force of your argument? Eugene Peterson said it, so it must be true? If so, I suggest you read a book or two off of Amazon. You can start with a A Concise Introduction to Logic.
3. I certainly didn’t intend to hit a nerve by criticizing Peterson. I didn’t realize that critical thinking and discussion would be considered so outrageous.
Ministry to the lost &/or the hurting, struggling believer IS messy. But we seem to need the facade of “it’s all okay, no problems here” in order to survive the pain of our messy lives. That facade often offers a place to hide the hurt and messes in our lives. Good? Bad? I guess it’s up to the one hiding to decide. Discovering the hidden ones is in and of itself messy.
One only feels embarrassed when they realize something is wrong, or unjust. Some how we have the idea that if we live morally superior lives to those in the lost and unchurched group that this will attract them to church or to God. This could not be further from reality. In fact this attitude actually alienates people from the church and sometimes from God. Anybody remember the parable about the publican and the tax collector? The need for God, people who are openly imperfect is the theme in the letters to the seven churches in Asia Minor. Truly living out what God calls us to do in the scripture is messy. Confessing sin, feeding the hungry, taking care of the orphans and widows, visiting those in prison, none of these commands fit well with in our white middle class method of doing.
No where do the writers of the New Testament encourage Christ followers to capitulate to sin. It instructs us to overcome it. But how much of church is really about knowing specifically where we need God, confessing and overcoming sin? Not very much! This is truly embarrassing!
In your next Sunday morning Bible class ask these questions. Where do you really need God in your life right now? What are you doing to overcome that problem? Or what has God been doing in your life spiritually? Most of the time the silence is deafening, and that is why the lost and unchurched community think the church is full of a bunch of hypocrites.
The word “mess” and the average church of Christ that is 98 members with the median age over 41 mostly white middle class in a clean air conditioned building does not go together. Sterile is a much better word.
Joe,
I really thought you and I were going to agree on this. But not quite. You said:
“Some how we have the idea that if we live morally superior lives to those in the lost and unchurched group that this will attract them to church or to God. This could not be further from reality. In fact this attitude actually alienates people from the church and sometimes from God.”
I think you’re talking about perception so correct me if I’m wrong. Because otherwise what you said there could be read as “living morally superior lives alienates people”. I’m pretty sure we are called to live morally superior lives. And in the name of intellectual honesty, it only makes sense that a group of people who have a system of accountability and a desire to please a God that demands moral superiority will in fact behave more morally than a group who doesn’t live in such a community. I’m sure there are exceptions to this but I still think it’s true on the average.
However, I will guess that we pretend the chasm is much larger than it is (between the church and the world) and when evidence of our moral failings is made public, it causes a larger problem for us because we fail to return to the cross. So instead we sweep our dust under the rug and go on our way.
Also, you said:
“But how much of church is really about knowing specifically where we need God, confessing and overcoming sin?”
Quite a bit. I think we spend a good bit of time in adoration and praise of God. To me it seems that is his gift to us, that we can abandon ourselves for 20 minutes a week and focus on Him. But other than that, most of “church” in my life revolves around overcoming sin in our lives. I don’t think our traditional Sunday morning bible classes are the best place for people to confess the worst of themselves. But that environment can be found elsewhere. Certainly, everywhere the various church families I’ve communed with over the last 15 years has encouraged people to find this place. Could we do better? Absolutely. Maybe we need to unstuff the shirts a bit. I think that is a good idea. But I am not embarrassed by the work we have done. Maybe it’s just a matter of semantics, but I find the self deprecation business a little depressing and wholly unnecessary for kingdom work.
I’m not sure that any of that made sense.
And they’ll know we are Christians
By our love, by our love,
Yes they’ll know we are Christians by our love.
Since my comment has been awaiting moderation for close to 24 hours, I will post it here without the links. If it pops up later with the hyperlinks embedded, then you will get to read my comment twice (Hooray!).
Three more quick points:
1. Chaplain G - I disagree that Peterson is talking about making room for messy guests. His quote speaks of being “ready for guests,” that “things are out of order” (not will be out of order, but “are” out of order), and “if the persons living in them are sinners….”
He’s talking about the present occupants of the living room - not future occupants.
2. AlGuy - If you think I am about grammar and spelling, you should see when logical fallacies are employed against me… Take yours, for example. There were two in your first paragraph.
First, there was the ad hominem attack on me [a young man (who has a propensity for worrying about details of grammar and wording)]. Who cares how old I am? Is 28 really that young? If it is, does education and experience make up for youth? Is it impossible for a “young man” who is concerned about “details of grammar and wording” to make a valid, logical point? Are “details of grammar and wording” the basis for all language, and by exentsion, debate? How is truth conveyed in text if not by “grammar and wording”?
Then there was the irrational appeal to authority (”challenging Eugene Peterson because he doesn’t get it”). Is that your force of your argument? Eugene Peterson said it, so it must be true? If so, I suggest you read a book or two off of Amazon. You can start with a Patrick J. Hurley’s _A Concise Introduction to Logic_.
3. I certainly didn’t intend to hit a nerve by criticizing Peterson. I didn’t realize that critical thinking and discussion would be considered so outrageous.
*chuckle*
qb
In regards to appearnnces and superficiality - the church is infinitely better today than it was 25 years ago. If you were not wearing a navy suit with a heavy starched shirt, or a dress with stockings - in 1985, you were looked at like some freak - today, not at all. You can wear pretty much what you want to any church in America. Though it sounds trivial to some - the casual dress has done alot for the church.
Mike, where is the quote found–I am a big Peterson fan, and I would like to find it. Thanks and hello!
Judy, it appears you can find this quote on p. 71 in his 1996 “Living the Message” compendium of devotional essays, published by HarperSanFrancisco. qb
Judy - I read it in Reversed Thunder. (And how are you, dear friend? I still miss you.)
Baron - Sorry, I’ve been away from the blog a couple days. I’ll go release your comment. It probably got caught because of the links.
Mike,
No sweat - I figured the links caused it to spend time in comment-Limbo, which is why I went ahead and posted it sans links.
Thanks!
Seriously?
It’s as if the only thing we have to show for ourselves is our Sunday event. Man, my skeptic friends are going to need a whole lot more than the freedom to wear flip-flops or a band T-shirt to a church meeting to convince them of the validity of following Christ. Like actually living for something, for instance.
Not meaning to pick on you particularly, KentF, but your comment is so representative of what is truly important to most church people. And 90 percent of what is important to church people is laughable to “non-insiders.” (based on my unscientific personal poll)
Amen Steve Jr.! “And 90 percent of what is important to church people is laughable to “non-insiders.” (based on my unscientific personal poll)”.
If we think that dressing down has helped the lost and unchurched come to faith then we truly are an embarrassment. I think it is great that some churches dress down, but this is still mostly for those of the emerging generations of the churched people who would have left church if the coat and tie rules were still strictly enforced.
Many still get all dressed up for one hour once a week. This lends it self to the perception that religion and spirituality are confined to one or two hours weekly. I remember a friend of mine growing up that said if God really cared about how one dressed he would start wearing a suit to sleep at night. That way if Jesus came back in the middle of the night he would be properly dressed.
What is truly embarrassing is a religion that places great emphasis on one’s dress and less on the heart.
No matter what anyone says this is still alive in many churches today.
The failure of church as it exists is trying to assimilate people into the church culture. Dress like us, build buildings like us, sing the songs we like etcetera. Make people like the existing church instead of shaping church culture to meet the lost and unchurched.
I like this quote and am eager to read more from Peterson. I’ve been thinking a lot about imitating the ministry of Christ. I don’t really believe that Peterson meant to equate living room with church building, but with our personal (and honest), relationship with Christ. The understanding that we, like Paul, ARE grace covered sinners, and therefore should eagerly accept and persue relationships with sinners who also need God’s grace. I love that I Timothy tell us that this honesty about where we stand in relationship with Christ, might even cause others to believe in Him. That, I think, is what Peterson meant by a messy living room. We are ALL a mess and need Christ, still the only cleanser of sin.
“15Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.”