What happened to academic freedom?
I’m sad about this. Thanks, Mark, for your thoughtful posts. The point wasn’t to make everyone agree with you; the point was to make everyone think. You did. That’s not always appreciated. Sad day.
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I’ve been reading The Early Christians in Ephesus from Paul to Ignatius
So much of the New Testament centers on faith in Asia Minor, and in Ephesus in particular. To begin with, there are portions of Acts (chapters 18-20) and of Revelation (the letter to the church in Ephesus). There is 1 Corinthians, written from Ephesus — as well as 2 Corinthians and Romans, written just after Paul left Ephesus on his third missionary journey. Add to that Ephesians (which may not have been written to Ephesus — check the footnotes of your Bible in Ephesians 1 to see that many manuscripts don’t say “in Ephesus” — but was likely a circular letter to many churches of Asia Minor, including the prominent one in Ephesus.) Then pile on 1 & 2 Timothy and the tradition that John spent his final years there.
This city, third or fourth largest in the Roman Empire at the time and home of one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World (the temple of Artemis, was a critical location for the advancement of the good news.
God uses sheepness goatness to be divisive, doesn’t He?
Man, this is fun!
Richard,
So you don’t believe ME when he says HU didn’t pressure him?
By the way, I don’t think being a Democrat and an Obama supporter is what caused the uproar. I’m sure there are plenty of other Democrats on the faculty and student body. Granted, they are in the minority but the converse is true at most secular schools. I recall that at a number of venues where conservatives were scheduled to speak they were shouted at or intimidated by the courageous intellectuals in attendance. Swiftboat veterans and Minutemen come to mind. So much for diversity of thought.
GKB- yes but He is GOD
GKB- by the way just because you post cool pictures of cars on your blog does not mean that you are cool; however it does mean you are one good photographer.
p.s. why do I now have to fill in all my info. to comment?
Clint, I have no idea. It looks like you are not logged in, for some reason…
What really disappoints is that we can’t have a legitimate discussion of the issues without personal attacks directed at the character of ME or other commenters.
Clint — you know me, and to not so subtly accuse me of racism or sexism is not consistent with what you know about me. I’m not that young myself anymore so I’m becoming more sensitive about ageism. Nevertheless, many people (not necessarily myself) consider the age and health status of presidential candidates to be a legitimate concern for voters. Warped or not — I admit I thought it was a funny twist on the age debate.
This just in…..
Obama doesn’t have a dog.
What a jerk.
(Just thought I would try to lighten the mood a bit)
Jim- I know many Jim’s, When did I accuse you of racism or sexism
Clint,
Your use of Matthew 18 is one of the most laughable examples of biblical exegesis I’ve ever seen. I’ve printed it off to use as an illustration in my classes.
JC- I copy and pasted from ME’s comment.
Can’t we all just get along….and agree that, whichever side of the matter you’re on, Clint and his ilk are morons and contributing nothing of value whatsoever?
JC- I guess that means you think Mark Elrod’s use of Matthew 18 is one of the most laughable examples of biblical exegesis you have ever seen. And have printed it off to use as a HU professor’s illustration in your classes.
Ah, the love and tolerance of the left shines through in Johnny’s childish comment.
GKB, I caught your little jab at my industry. Who knows, maybe Obama will nationalize it. Then I can seek an honorable profession.
Perhaps JC found it laughable because it makes no sense. Matthew 18 has no application. ME linked to a site pointing out that McCain is old. What should he go to McCain about? I don’t think ME has been offended or feels wronged in any way by McCain being old, and doesn’t expect any repentance by McCain for the “sin” of aging.
However, if someone feels ME is wrong in linking to a site, perhaps it is a bit more applicable (perhaps contacting him and discussing why he would link to such a site instead of posting an offending story [created well after it was linked] in the comments section of another blog, and implying he had linked to THAT specific story.)
I’m not certain if it applies even in the latter case, but it’s certainly far closer than the first.
Greg- you need to read ME’s comment at 9:01 am
I already had.
Clint,
Greg has it right. Your use of Matthew 18 (in a lame attempt at a snap back argument aimed at ME) doesn’t make any sense while ME’s use in the 9:01 comment does.
It’s okay to admit you’re wrong clint. Just slow down and think a bit more before posting.
JC- nice try.
so it is ok for ME to call out John McCain’s use of language without following Matt. 18.
Lord, have mercy. This post had 4 comments the last time I checked.
Just noting my disappointment that I won’t be able to read ME’s blog anymore. I never contributed to the discussions, but I have enjoyed regularly reading for at least 3 years, I believe. He’s definitely made me aware of some news/issues and encouraged me to take a second look at others….he’s made me laugh a few times, too;)
How could anyone trust Obama with the economy with his promised massive give away programs, tax increases and his only experience is 143 days in the senate?
Actually what I find interesting is that ME uncritically accepts the notion that McCain called his wife the “c” word based on the word of a single Arizona journalist that waited nearly two decades to tell anyone and chose a liberal blogger to receive “the scoop.”
IMO ME has gotten less critical in his blogging as this election campaign has worn on. Over the past two years I’ve noticed a distinctive trend of his blog moving from a pretty good place for people of the CoC tradition or with a Harding connection to discuss politics and the church, to an echo chamber for Obamamaniacs.
None of which is any reason why he should feel a need to take it private to protect his personal or professional interests. Everything that has been said about how you know what you’re signing on for with Harding is true, but it should also be said that things like this don’t make Harding very attractive as a destination for our best and brightest. Speaking for myself, when and if I were to finish grad school, Harding would be down at the bottom of the list of potential employers below dozens of schools with tenure systems and respect for academic freedom.
As disappointed as I’ve been in the ME blog over the past… I don’t know, year… just based on the timeline it seems to me the proximate cause of ME’s troubles was probably his well thought-out post on same-sex marriage, not any of his Obamaworship. A professor should not be subject to professional reproach for either type of post (unless his students are required to read the blog, and last I checked they’re not) but this is unfortunate.
The snide feelings of retribution some express on here is really sad for people who profess to be Christian… someone feels so wronged, that they can’t help but gloat and revel in someone else’s trouble.
George Benson, we need you!
JB said — “As disappointed as I’ve been in the ME blog over the past… I don’t know, year… just based on the timeline it seems to me the proximate cause of ME’s troubles was probably his well thought-out post on same-sex marriage, not any of his Obamaworship.”
Now this makes more sense. I could not understand why Harding suddenly seemed to have a problem with Edrod being a Democrat as this is being made to appear. I think most Christian schools would have a problem with a teacher coming out and saying they supported same-sex marriage.
J.N. Armstrong, we need you!
You’re way off. It was the Obama stuff, not the homosexual marriage stuff. For one, Elrod did not come out “in support of” gay marriage. He simply said he didn’t think his church should be spouting off about it from the pulpit. Secondly, it was the Obama stuff.
GKB, I’ve listened to the interview and he said what he said. Anyone can listen to it at this down in the blog blog. I think he said he was “for same sex marriage.” You can go listen to the recording yourself. So are you saying he does not support it, but he is for it?
Does participating in partisan politics lead Christians to love the Lord their God with all their hearts, souls, minds, and strength, and their neighbor as themselves?
If the answer is “no” (which, judging by this thread of comments, seems to be the case), then why do we do it?
All this taking sides and throwing pot-shots is sickening, really, and I want nothing to do with it. (except maybe critique it from the margins…)
DR Elrod has academic freedom, he is choosing not to be persecuted for the sake of his views. Call it like it is.
I am glad Jesus did not do the same.
Just when analogies and comparisons couldn’t get more tendentious: Jesus is now martyred for pushing academic freedoms under his employers, the Roman empire.
We have officially entered the Twilight Zone of political discourse.
MW,
You missed that one my friend. DR Elrod said he was not forced by Harding to privatize his blog. He did so because of the persucatory comments.
Its not the twilight zone its the no spin zone. Pay attention to what is being said and not what you feel. It may help your clarity.
What are the persucatory (persecutory?)comments being made my Dr. Elrod? If this is a ‘no spin zone’, then why isn’t their any nuanced distinctions made between academic honesty and ’saying whatever you want’? Why is any dissent being thrown automatically into the ‘inflammatory’ folder? Why is positing that someone’s age might be an obstacle in executing an incredibly difficult job rendered an equivalent to racism?
For the record, I think Steve Jr.’s comment captures the tone of this entire dialogue. Whenever politics appears as the center of dialogue on this (or any Christian) blog, peoples’ thinking, sensitivity, and openess gets amputated. I’m not immune from my own indictment. But taking a privileged vantage point on someone else’s career, summing it up neatly and then concluding “I am glad Jesus did not do the same” just hurts.
MW,
Missed it again. Jesus said what he wanted to in a public forum and did not privatize his comments. He died for it.
If Dr Elrod has something important to say, let him say it publicly. It may change the world as Jesus did, as MLK did as Ghandi did.
I am saying this is a chance for Dr. Elrod to stick to his guns regardless of public opinion and to create discussion where it needs to be created. Let your light shine don’t hide it under a bushel.
If this hurts you MW then sorry, I don’t see the hole in my argument. A true visionary can take some criticism and character attacks. A true visionary must or he is man or woman who is half convicted. I want someone who is all in.
MW,
I am on the side of Dr Elrod. I think his blog needs to be public and if Harding doesn’t like then let censorship happen, don’t preempt it.
This would only further solidify Dr Elrod’s points. We have women as second class participants in our heritage. Its time someone should stand up and say things like: Women for elder and women for preacher, etc.
Maybe Dr Elrod will go all in and stop the unthinking nonsensical ways of our heritage and bring it into the 21st century.
I like people who question things and allow themselves to think.
Well, the hole in your analogy, rather gaping is this: A bunch of Christians should not deal with people like Caesar. And a person not wanting to create divisiveness in his church is not like Martin Luther King standing up to the racist south. To compare M.L.K.’s fight on racism, to Elrod’s battle against other Christians with opinion-intolerance is dismissive.
When Christians being silenced by other Christians is comparable to Jesus being executed by the Roman Empire, because both involved ’standing up for what you believe in’ we have some serious theological anemia.
Read the blog comments of ME (Elrod) no one silenced him except himself.
I’ll take iron for my theological anemia if you will read the comments.
“And a person not wanting to create divisiveness in his church is not like Martin Luther King standing up to the racist south.”
No it would be like MLK not wanting to create divisiveness in Southern churches and silencing himself. That did not happen. But it did in Dr Elrod’s case. Jesus not wanting to create divisiveness in the synagogue chose to silence himself. This didn’t happen either.
The gaping hole you supposedly found is not even a crack by your argument.
This is what your argument doesn’t acknowledge: he is silencing himself for a substantive reason. He’s not closing down a blog, he’s invested thousands of hours into, because a person called him up and said: “Ahem, this is your employer, would you politely consider closing your blog down.” Your narration of this event puts all of the onus on M.E. The synagogue didn’t crucify Jesus, and it didn’t have the power to. And the very fact that we can create analogies in which the one doing ‘the crucifying’ is Christians, and we don’t highlight their responsibility is the very basis for this discussion being problematic. Christians shouldn’t be forcing their brethren to be the ‘Gandhi’s’ and ‘M.L.K.’s. And when they do, are response shouldn’t be “Man up!” “Be like M.L.K.” The Christian identity of those creating acquiesance to silence should discredit analogies involving pagans. Your narration doesn’t suggest it does.
Ah, the blessings of being independent…where I can look at the candidates, evaluate each, vote for a democrat, republican, a mixed ticket, including an “off-brand”…each time voting for the one whom I believe would be best for the country…not worrying about “party line.” I have no one to defend…just compare what each candidate says to what I believe Scriptures teach.
MW,
I’ll give you the last word.
M.W.,
You seem to be missing the fact that Leland is in favor of the commentary offered by ME. I think he just wants him to fight on in the face of adversity instead of going underground. I don’t really have a dog in this fight, but I can see how those who didn’t know ME and consequently won’t be invited to participate in his private discussions, feel a little cheated. Most everyone feels cheated by those who would go to his employer and cause trouble for him (I still insist we don’t know the whole story and probably shouldn’t speculate as much as we have). But I think Leland is saying that Mark’s unwillingness to take a stand against what he views as Phariseeical behavior (that’s a better parallel than pagans) is cheating him out of a forum that he feels is needed.
I personally didn’t read Mark’s blog alot because I felt it was a place where a lot of mean-spiritedness was festering in the comments(from both sides).
On the flip side this has caused me to think about the millions of comments that have been made on sites like this one, that otherwise might have been never heard and I think we are better off for these sites. There is a ton of disagreement, but I always enjoy the challenges that are presented by people who don’t agree with me and opportunity for me to reconsider, become steadfast, or just continue to ponder topics that matter.
Kyle, Leland,
Good points made. I guess I misinterpreted.
Did I miss something or just misunderstand when ME said he was not pressured to go from public to private? If he wasn’t pressured, then half of the stuff on here is extremely off-base; if he was, then the dishonesty on his part is over-whelming.
What constitutes ‘pressure’?
Whatever ME meantb when he used the word “pressure”
Oh. Now I see.
“GKB Jul 8th, 2008 at 9:09 am
Oh, and if the aforementioned blog was able to somehow skirt the vile history of racism and segregation in this country, like the McCain blog has. Because, ageism and racism are pretty much the same.”
NO – age and race are NOT pretty much the same.
“Baron Jul 8th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
I don’t feel bad for Mark. He silenced me a couple of years ago, because he didn’t like my views and couldn’t respond to them in a logical, rational manner. Rather than defend his positions or respond to me when I pointed out the (multiple and repeated) breakdowns in his thinking, he locked me out.”
Like I was once told, “it’s my blog, and I can talk about what I want to talk about.” I was the one told this by a very strong conservative republican when they didn’t like me pointing their inadequacies. I didn’t like it either. This person made it impossible for me to comment any longer on their site. Even told me she was “watching me.” So it works both ways.
On Dr. Elrod and Harding, it’s all about the $$$s. Large contributors didn’t like what ME was saying and indicated they would contributing their big bucks to the school. Dr. Elrod did the right thing in regards to the school. He believes in the school and their mission – you can always have stupid and close-minded people anywhere. This way he can still maintain his positive influence and no one is hurt. Big sacrifice in my opinion. It’s very sad that so many christians can be “bought.”
“GKB Jul 8th, 2008 at 9:09 am
Oh, and if the aforementioned blog was able to somehow skirt the vile history of racism and segregation in this country, like the McCain blog has. Because, ageism and racism are pretty much the same.”
NO – age and race are NOT pretty much the same.
“Baron Jul 8th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
I don’t feel bad for Mark. He silenced me a couple of years ago, because he didn’t like my views and couldn’t respond to them in a logical, rational manner. Rather than defend his positions or respond to me when I pointed out the (multiple and repeated) breakdowns in his thinking, he locked me out.”
Like I was once told, “it’s my blog, and I can talk about what I want to talk about.” I was the one told this by a very strong conservative republican when they didn’t like me pointing their inadequacies. I didn’t like it either. This person made it impossible for me to comment any longer on their site. Even told me she was “watching me.” So it works both ways.
On Dr. Elrod and Harding, it’s all about the $$$s. Large contributors didn’t like what ME was saying and indicated they would contributing their big bucks to the school. Dr. Elrod did the right thing in regards to the school. He believes in the school and their mission – you can always have stupid and close-minded people anywhere. This way he can still maintain his positive influence and no one is hurt. Big sacrifice in my opinion. It’s very sad that so many christians can be “bought.”