I’m sad about this. Thanks, Mark, for your thoughtful posts. The point wasn’t to make everyone agree with you; the point was to make everyone think. You did. That’s not always appreciated. Sad day.
- - - -
I’ve been reading The Early Christians in Ephesus from Paul to Ignatius
So much of the New Testament centers on faith in Asia Minor, and in Ephesus in particular. To begin with, there are portions of Acts (chapters 18-20) and of Revelation (the letter to the church in Ephesus). There is 1 Corinthians, written from Ephesus — as well as 2 Corinthians and Romans, written just after Paul left Ephesus on his third missionary journey. Add to that Ephesians (which may not have been written to Ephesus — check the footnotes of your Bible in Ephesians 1 to see that many manuscripts don’t say “in Ephesus” — but was likely a circular letter to many churches of Asia Minor, including the prominent one in Ephesus.) Then pile on 1 & 2 Timothy and the tradition that John spent his final years there.
This city, third or fourth largest in the Roman Empire at the time and home of one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World (the temple of Artemis, was a critical location for the advancement of the good news.
I wonder if Rush Limbaugh worked for Berkeley University if he could keep his day job. I think what the writer of Eppur Si Muove did was silly. If you play with pigs…. (pigs being those who use Obamas middle name to vilify him)
How can Harding even call itself a University?
As an an academic institution, Harding is a joke. As a representative of Christ’s church, Harding is an abomination. Harding is incredibly lucky to have Dr. Elrod, and yet they seem bound and determined to drive him away. Sad day.
Maybe, I’m an outsider here but is it necessarily fair to Harding to be overly critical here. We don’t really know their side of things. And when I read Mark’s post he never said that Harding was making him shutdown his site. I’m not attacking him or anything. It just seems there is alot of ambiguity for everyone to jump on Harding. It could very well be exactly what it seems, but as far as I know Mark Elrod made no allegation against the university itself.
True Kyle. We only know the side that Mr. Elrods people are saying. We have no idea if Harding put pressure on Mr. Elrod or not.
You know though, he had to know Hardings history. Did he really think he had the freedom to say whatever he wanted without consequences? I can’t say whatever I want at my job and not suffer consequences. I think all this talk about “Academic Freedom” is hogwash.
I find it sad that people are aiming such hurtful and hateful darts at Harding when they don’t even know the whole story. The only “joke”, John, is that people actually think you should be able to say anything without consequences.
BTW, I don’t think that Harding will fail and flounder if Mr. Elrod choose to leave. I think it would keep right on trucking, producing incredible students who go on to lead very successful lives. People speak as if Mr. Elrod is some sort of saint and can do no wrong (although, that is how many speak of Obama so go figure) and that Harding is just evil incarnate. I find that very sad. I love Harding and hate to see it tarnished when people don’t even know what happened.
Very sad that some Christians are so insular that they can not stand to have their faith challenged or be opened up to the broad discussions of our faith. I am sad that a place like Harding allows itself to be influenced by certain people who would seek to promote such a one-sided view of Christianity. I’m sure ACU could find room for Dr. Elrod on their political science faculty, and yet, I know Dr. Elrod still has a great ministry at Harding. My sadness is that I will not be a part of his inner circle to share in such great discussions.
I feel both anger and sadness that some in this particular faith movement would be so selfish as to protect their own beliefs rather than listen and be encouraged to think.
Amen Randall. Part of my contract with my employer stipulates that I will not bring negative publicity to the company and will not disparage my employer in a public way. I work in the insurance industry. If I decided to start a blog where I routinely belittled my employer and the industry I work in and drew publicity that put them in a bad light I can assure you my job status would be in jeopardy. Actions have consequences.
HU will be fine as Randall said. Much to the chagrin of some.
For the record, I was not “pressured” into changing my blog from “public” to “private” status.
I made this decision on my own as the result of the general frustration I have with members of our fellowship who want to make a spiritual judgment about me based on my political views.
In the last few days, much of that angst has been directed toward my employer and, as a result, toward me as well.
I would much rather have a private conversation about things that are important to me than a public conversation that leads to additional complaints about me to the Harding University administration.
And, as I have said on numerous occasions, I’m going to spend the first 10,000 years in heaven annoying all the Republicans who don’t think I should be there. Then I’m going to learn how to play the harp.
I can’t believe that after a 20 year association that this could happen. What about freedom of speech and the free flow of ideas that cause one to question the establishment. After all, one individual can’t be held responsible for something someone else says. That is, unless it has a negative impact on the bottom line. But enough about Obama, let’s talk about Harding.
If we could only get Obama to take his campaign private. We can only hope.
Mr. Elrod, I am glad to hear you were not pressured. I have read many other accounts online today that suggest otherwise. It’s good to hear it from the horses mouth.
I am extremely intrigued by this argument based upon academic freedom as implied by Mike in his title. I think I have read that Mike teaches a bible class or two at ACU, so my question is for him. Mike, do you believe a bible professor should be able to go into a bible class at ACU and teach anything whatsoever no matter what?
If you do and you say so, I would believe you really do believe in academic freedom. If you don’t believe that or don’t say so, I will conclude you are grandstanding for your friend.
Me- what makes you think Republicans will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, much less Democrats.
I know where you’re all coming from, but seriously…what do you guys think of the finalists on the Next Food Network Star?
To defend Mike a little, as he’s being accused of grandstanding, since when is supporting a Democratic candidate something you’d be censored for (or pressured/hassled over) at an academic institution ostensibly devoted to critical thinking? Are Democrats not allowed on the faculty at Harding? Or are they tolerated only if thy are covert about their political affiliation? Dr. Elrod’s sin seems to be not that he was a Democrat but that he was a visible, intelligent, charismatic and persuasive Democrat. (So persuasive and intelligent that, as we see in some of the comments here, those who are less persuasive and intelligent are reduced to poisonous jealousy and unChristian schadenfreude.)
What year in its history did Harding become a training ground and indoctrination center for the GOP?
Thomas, perhaps I should not have used the word grandstanding, but my question regarding academic freedom was a serious one and, I assure you, I am not rejoicing in any suffering on anyone’s part as your “schadenfreude” remark implied, but perhaps that was not directed at me.
I really wonder about the question of academic freedom in a Christian school. If a Christian school allows complete academic freedom, how would it be any different from any other school? I think Christian schools by their very nature necessarily imply some restrictions on what might be termed academic freedom if they are to retain anything “Christian” about themselves at all.
That is why I was asking the question.
I am defining academic freedom (in this case) as the reasonable generation of viewpoints/thoughts and the reasonable exchange of ideas.
There is always a limit on what a person can say. Freedom of speech is not total and universal.
However, universities are places where it is generally understood (and profitable) for those limits to be relaxed. Not eliminated, but relaxed.
I contend that Dr. Elrod has not broken those limits. It sounds like those people that have pressured both him and Harding are not being reasonable.
If you disagree with me then please: take a couple of hours and read back through Dr. Elrod’s posts. Judge for yourself. You may not agree with everything he says (I don’t) but does he say anything unreasonable? Especially (since apparently this stems from) politics and religion.
Dr. Elrod’s voice was appreciated and needed to be heard. However a few would not hear it and despised its existence. Because of those infantile few the rest of us are punished.
It is sad.
I believe I understand your question.
You are correct that there is no such thing as “complete academic freedom.” If Dr. Elrod rejected Christianity or his Church of Christ heritage then, clearly, he would not get any hearing about “academic freedom.”
But Mike’s concern (and mine) is that Dr. Elrod gets heat simply by being a passionate Democrat. Dr. Elrod should only get grief if Harding is, ideologically, as wedded to the GOP as it is to the CoC. I suspect that, in all practicality, this is indeed the case. Harding values GOP membership as much as it values CoC membership.
So no doubt, Dr. Elrod holds a minority opinion on the Harding campus. But Dr. Elrod’s political views and activities are intimately tied up with his academic discipline and the debates therein. Consequently, his views, as minority opinions, should be PROTECTED by the administration. But in fact, just the opposite occurs on Harding’s campus. And that is the problem Mike is raising. It’s not about “complete” academic freedom. It’s about a political science professor being actively and passionately involved in American politics as both a scholar and as an educational model, even if he is a Democrat. Dr. Elrod should be free and protected to do exactly what he does. His being a Democrat does not violate the Charter of HU.
In short, in these areas of legitimate academic disputation a University is morally obligated to protect minority voices. That is the point of academic freedom: Protect the debate. Otherwise, your “school” becomes a fascist center of ideological indoctrination where dissenting views are stifled.
As Mr. Elrod said, he was not pressured to do anything.
Secondly, if he was, it was NOT simply because of his political views or that he is a Democrat. He has been there 20 years so they would have done something long ago. He talks about much more than politics on his blog.
Politics is not the problem; it is the divisiveness of politics. This is the link of the month from Dr Elrod’s HU Home Page.
NDAY, JULY 6, 2008
THINGS YOUNGER THAN REPUBICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (OH, AND DID I FORGET TO MENTION WAR HERO?) JOHN MCCAIN
BOOFUCKINGHOO.
Jesse Helms died the other day. Even though he was older than McCain, I’m posting his obit here because it gives me a chance to list some choice words to remember him by:
“Your tax dollars are being used to pay for grade school classes that teach our children that cannibalism, wife-swapping and the murder of infants and the elderly are acceptable behavior.”
“I’ve been portrayed as a caveman by some. That’s not true. I’m a conservative progressive, and that means I think all men are equal, be they slants, beaners, or niggers.”
“We’ve got to have some common sense about a disease transmitted by people deliberately engaging in unnatural acts.”
Rest in peace… you hate-filled bigot.
PS: Mike tipped me off to what the Chimp-in-Chief had to say on the passing of Helms:
“Jesse Helms was a kind, decent, and humble man and a passionate defender of what he called “the Miracle of America.” So it is fitting that this great patriot left us on the Fourth of July.”
For more, if you have a strong stomach, you can click here.
Clint, if you are any example of the type of supporters generated by Mr. Elrod, then I cannot imagine why the folks up there at HU could have any problem.
Yep, that’s the link. So you have a link from your homepage from your employers website that has the F bomb in caps right out of the gate and you think no one will notice or care? That’s pretty good judgement. But of course it was done in the name of academic freedom.
Let’s get real people. Harding is conservative. You know what you’re getting when you apply for a job there or when you enroll as a student. It is what it is. No one holds a gun to anyones head. All this crying and moaning about what a horrible place HU is laughable. Don’t work there! Don’t send your kids there! You have other choices.
By the way, if ME wasn’t happy there he would go elsewhere on his own I suspect. There’s worse places to live than Searcy AR even if it is a bastion of repressive Republicanism.
Mea Culpa. Clint, I owe you an apology. The way I read your last post, I thought those were your words.
I see now you are saying Mr. Elrod had a link to this from his blog. Are you serious? Did he really do that?
I want to be clear that I believe that all beliefs should be available to study. You can not make an educated decision knowing only one side of the story. The problem is divisiveness; Whether in Religion or politics.
FYI
http://www.harding.edu/elrod/Link%20of%20the%20Month.html
I think you’ll find that the link was placed well before the post that you find offensive. Surely we could agree that the idea of listing things “younger than John McCain” is a pretty acceptable attempt at political humor - and I feel certain that’s what ME intended.
Let’s at least keep the vitriol grounded in fact and quit stooping to innuendo.
I wonder when Dr. Elrod goes to his HU Box today, what the complaint to job offer ratio will be. I’m guessing about 50/50. This is just the kind of behavior that will get you noticed at a much larger, more progressive university. I’ve heard it never rains in Southern California.
Notice that the link is to a blog… I’m sure that was not the first post when Dr. Elrod linked to it. Read through the posts on that blog - for the most part, it’s not offensive. You happened upon one post in one day…
Seriously, people are amazing at pulling things out of context on here. The immediate lashing out by people on issues they know nothing about is sad. People make conclusions about something they have never looked at themselves (like those of you who assumed ME was making statements against his employer). Take some time and look things through before you make your judgments.
Jin- If you think “THINGS YOUNGER THAN REPUBICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (OH, AND DID I FORGET TO MENTION WAR HERO?) JOHN MCCAIN” “is a pretty acceptable attempt at political humor” then you have a warped sense of humor.
Here is a quote from Soren Kierkegaard:
“Act just once in such a manner that your action expresses that you fear God alone and man not at all……….you will immediately in some measure cause a scandal”
Well, I do have to ask where was the outrage about Harding when some of our preachers were not allowed there or my favorite columnist was cancelled. Seems that came from out of nowhere and I thought that the University was a Democrat institution.
It is sad that sometimes when we teach or think, people make life difficult. It is another sign of the power of fear within the church. It is good ole fashion bullying.
http://www.matthewsblog.waynesborochurchofchrist.org
@gt:
You work in the insurance industry? That’s great. But really, you’re talking apples and oranges. Imagine if someone from your church went to your boss and complained that you were in favor of whole life insurance, instead of term, and that as a result you should be fired. Then, perhaps, we’d be in the same ballpark.
And Clint, you gotta admit: McCain is old! It’s kinda funny how incredibly old he is.
If you are at all familiar with how blogs work and, you know, the calendar, it’s pretty obvious that the “link of the month” was for June, probably placed at least a month ago. The post noted above is from July 6. Clearly it was not there when the site was chosen. And, as pointed out already, the link is to a site, a blog, not directly to the Helms story, as the original comment made it appear.
I admit that I am in the 1st “class” of Baby Boomers(yes, the ones who will be bankrupting ALL of you), and my family(all techno whizzes) think it’s a hoot that Mom reads & very infrequently comments on a few blogs. But after linking here & there, I found out who ME is & what all the hubbub is about. As I’m typing now, I’m praying for Mike & thanking God for his sharing his thoughts with us. He has opened up my little coc box that I had wrapped tightly(with a bow)& caused me to think, study, pray, & question (without the life-long guilt I’ve had.) I’m just hoping & praying that preachermike doesn’t do the same as ME. Please, to quote that old sage Rodney King, “Can’t we just all get along?”
Jin, GKB - I was wondering if you think “THINGS BLACKER THAN DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (OH, AND DID I FORGET TO MENTION HUSSEIN?) BARACK OBAMA” “is a pretty acceptable attempt at political humor”?
GKB,
If you must know I’m a term kind of guy.
Greg- the point I was making is that the site is divisive with or without the Helms story.
Just this morning I was thinking about blogging and people’s careers. If I were in the market for a new job, some companyies wouldn’t look favorably on what came up through googling my name. My present company, AT&T Mobility, has its faults but it is really committed to diversity. I don’t think human resources ever went so far as to check me out online, though there was a thorough background check including for criminal history in Brazil (there was none). When I mentioned to some supervisors in a coversation a year or so ago that I had a blog, they sounded interested but not concerned. It all depends on the company and the position. This would naturally be the same for someone teaching in a private university setting.
Still, it’s disappointing. I’m well aware of the back-biting that goes on among Churches of Christ. There’s a lot of fear and suspicion, although those involved wouldn’t call it that. I’ve been on both the giving and receiving end of these attacks, and am saddened by it.
The book sounds good. I’ve thrown it in my cart on Amazon.com
I meant “companies,” obviously. No spell check on the comments….
I have consistently edited my blog and my Homepage for offensive content.
This is the first time anyone has brought the matter of offensive content on my link of the month to my attention. People who have bothered to take the time to get to know me, know that I don’t use that kind of language (although John McCain does) in public or private conversations.
I’m sorry if this offended you and I’m sure you have attempted on numerous occasions to bring this to my attention in a private manner as specified by Jesus in Matthew 18:15. Naturally, this is not as serious a sin as profanity, so you don’t have too much to worry about.
I will remove the link as soon as I can. Unfortunately, I am away from the Harding campus right now and I can’t get access to my server so I won’t be able to get to it until Wednesday evening.
Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
Clint, I would read it if it was funny and well done.
Oh, and if the aforementioned blog was able to somehow skirt the vile history of racism and segregation in this country, like the McCain blog has. Because, ageism and racism are pretty much the same.
gt, you wrote: Let’s get real people. Harding is conservative. You know what you’re getting when you apply for a job there or when you enroll as a student. It is what it is. No one holds a gun to anyones head. All this crying and moaning about what a horrible place HU is laughable. Don’t work there! Don’t send your kids there! You have other choices.
I think you are missing the point. (Willfully so?)
The disappointment being expressed is that to be a Democrat on Harding’s campus one has to go “private,” underground. It is right and proper to express disappointment and even anger at the example Harding is setting as a CoC institution. How will outsiders (or even CoC insiders) view such a move? All of us are affected, directly or indirectly, by Harding’s forcing political debate underground. It sends the signal that the CoC has no true intellectuals, that we lack intellectual courage, and that we are an insular cult in the pocket of political parties.
By the way, GKB, you mentioned on ME’s blog that you are looking forward to the closed-door discussion. Many of us are not, because we will not be included on the short list of 100. Realize, that while it may be good for ME, it is not good for me, or many others. I think my registration has already been removed, which is why I posted here.
Me- Thank you for editing your blog and Homepage but that does not address the divisive nature of those blogs. Why did you find it necessary to throw a jab at McCain unless you went to him as specified by Jesus in Matthew 18:15, this lets us know who you are.
Yep, but I have no idea who you are.
Clint: Is being old a sin?
Me- here is a link to my blog
GKB- nice try
GKB- is being black a sin?
GKB- if you use age or race divisively, yes it is a sin.
God uses sheepness goatness to be divisive, doesn’t He?
Man, this is fun!
Richard,
So you don’t believe ME when he says HU didn’t pressure him?
By the way, I don’t think being a Democrat and an Obama supporter is what caused the uproar. I’m sure there are plenty of other Democrats on the faculty and student body. Granted, they are in the minority but the converse is true at most secular schools. I recall that at a number of venues where conservatives were scheduled to speak they were shouted at or intimidated by the courageous intellectuals in attendance. Swiftboat veterans and Minutemen come to mind. So much for diversity of thought.
GKB- yes but He is GOD
GKB- by the way just because you post cool pictures of cars on your blog does not mean that you are cool; however it does mean you are one good photographer.
p.s. why do I now have to fill in all my info. to comment?
Clint, I have no idea. It looks like you are not logged in, for some reason…
What really disappoints is that we can’t have a legitimate discussion of the issues without personal attacks directed at the character of ME or other commenters.
Clint — you know me, and to not so subtly accuse me of racism or sexism is not consistent with what you know about me. I’m not that young myself anymore so I’m becoming more sensitive about ageism. Nevertheless, many people (not necessarily myself) consider the age and health status of presidential candidates to be a legitimate concern for voters. Warped or not — I admit I thought it was a funny twist on the age debate.
This just in…..
Obama doesn’t have a dog.
What a jerk.
(Just thought I would try to lighten the mood a bit)
Jim- I know many Jim’s, When did I accuse you of racism or sexism
Clint,
Your use of Matthew 18 is one of the most laughable examples of biblical exegesis I’ve ever seen. I’ve printed it off to use as an illustration in my classes.
JC- I copy and pasted from ME’s comment.
Can’t we all just get along….and agree that, whichever side of the matter you’re on, Clint and his ilk are morons and contributing nothing of value whatsoever?
JC- I guess that means you think Mark Elrod’s use of Matthew 18 is one of the most laughable examples of biblical exegesis you have ever seen. And have printed it off to use as a HU professor’s illustration in your classes.
Ah, the love and tolerance of the left shines through in Johnny’s childish comment.
GKB, I caught your little jab at my industry. Who knows, maybe Obama will nationalize it. Then I can seek an honorable profession.
Perhaps JC found it laughable because it makes no sense. Matthew 18 has no application. ME linked to a site pointing out that McCain is old. What should he go to McCain about? I don’t think ME has been offended or feels wronged in any way by McCain being old, and doesn’t expect any repentance by McCain for the “sin” of aging.
However, if someone feels ME is wrong in linking to a site, perhaps it is a bit more applicable (perhaps contacting him and discussing why he would link to such a site instead of posting an offending story [created well after it was linked] in the comments section of another blog, and implying he had linked to THAT specific story.)
I’m not certain if it applies even in the latter case, but it’s certainly far closer than the first.
Greg- you need to read ME’s comment at 9:01 am
I already had.
Clint,
Greg has it right. Your use of Matthew 18 (in a lame attempt at a snap back argument aimed at ME) doesn’t make any sense while ME’s use in the 9:01 comment does.
It’s okay to admit you’re wrong clint. Just slow down and think a bit more before posting.
JC- nice try.
so it is ok for ME to call out John McCain’s use of language without following Matt. 18.
Lord, have mercy. This post had 4 comments the last time I checked.
Just noting my disappointment that I won’t be able to read ME’s blog anymore. I never contributed to the discussions, but I have enjoyed regularly reading for at least 3 years, I believe. He’s definitely made me aware of some news/issues and encouraged me to take a second look at others….he’s made me laugh a few times, too;)
How could anyone trust Obama with the economy with his promised massive give away programs, tax increases and his only experience is 143 days in the senate?
Actually what I find interesting is that ME uncritically accepts the notion that McCain called his wife the “c” word based on the word of a single Arizona journalist that waited nearly two decades to tell anyone and chose a liberal blogger to receive “the scoop.”
IMO ME has gotten less critical in his blogging as this election campaign has worn on. Over the past two years I’ve noticed a distinctive trend of his blog moving from a pretty good place for people of the CoC tradition or with a Harding connection to discuss politics and the church, to an echo chamber for Obamamaniacs.
None of which is any reason why he should feel a need to take it private to protect his personal or professional interests. Everything that has been said about how you know what you’re signing on for with Harding is true, but it should also be said that things like this don’t make Harding very attractive as a destination for our best and brightest. Speaking for myself, when and if I were to finish grad school, Harding would be down at the bottom of the list of potential employers below dozens of schools with tenure systems and respect for academic freedom.
As disappointed as I’ve been in the ME blog over the past… I don’t know, year… just based on the timeline it seems to me the proximate cause of ME’s troubles was probably his well thought-out post on same-sex marriage, not any of his Obamaworship. A professor should not be subject to professional reproach for either type of post (unless his students are required to read the blog, and last I checked they’re not) but this is unfortunate.
I don’t feel bad for Mark. He silenced me a couple of years ago, because he didn’t like my views and couldn’t respond to them in a logical, rational manner. Rather than defend his positions or respond to me when I pointed out the (multiple and repeated) breakdowns in his thinking, he locked me out.
Although as a Catholic, I’m forbidden to believe in karma, there’s a part of me that will always wonder if this is karma in action…
Mark silences Baron. Harding silences Mark.
Thanks, karma (if you exist…).
The snide feelings of retribution some express on here is really sad for people who profess to be Christian… someone feels so wronged, that they can’t help but gloat and revel in someone else’s trouble.
George Benson, we need you!
JB said — “As disappointed as I’ve been in the ME blog over the past… I don’t know, year… just based on the timeline it seems to me the proximate cause of ME’s troubles was probably his well thought-out post on same-sex marriage, not any of his Obamaworship.”
Now this makes more sense. I could not understand why Harding suddenly seemed to have a problem with Edrod being a Democrat as this is being made to appear. I think most Christian schools would have a problem with a teacher coming out and saying they supported same-sex marriage.
J.N. Armstrong, we need you!
You’re way off. It was the Obama stuff, not the homosexual marriage stuff. For one, Elrod did not come out “in support of” gay marriage. He simply said he didn’t think his church should be spouting off about it from the pulpit. Secondly, it was the Obama stuff.
GKB, I’ve listened to the interview and he said what he said. Anyone can listen to it at this down in the blog blog. I think he said he was “for same sex marriage.” You can go listen to the recording yourself. So are you saying he does not support it, but he is for it?
Does participating in partisan politics lead Christians to love the Lord their God with all their hearts, souls, minds, and strength, and their neighbor as themselves?
If the answer is “no” (which, judging by this thread of comments, seems to be the case), then why do we do it?
All this taking sides and throwing pot-shots is sickening, really, and I want nothing to do with it. (except maybe critique it from the margins…)
DR Elrod has academic freedom, he is choosing not to be persecuted for the sake of his views. Call it like it is.
I am glad Jesus did not do the same.
Just when analogies and comparisons couldn’t get more tendentious: Jesus is now martyred for pushing academic freedoms under his employers, the Roman empire.
We have officially entered the Twilight Zone of political discourse.
MW,
You missed that one my friend. DR Elrod said he was not forced by Harding to privatize his blog. He did so because of the persucatory comments.
Its not the twilight zone its the no spin zone. Pay attention to what is being said and not what you feel. It may help your clarity.
What are the persucatory (persecutory?)comments being made my Dr. Elrod? If this is a ‘no spin zone’, then why isn’t their any nuanced distinctions made between academic honesty and ’saying whatever you want’? Why is any dissent being thrown automatically into the ‘inflammatory’ folder? Why is positing that someone’s age might be an obstacle in executing an incredibly difficult job rendered an equivalent to racism?
For the record, I think Steve Jr.’s comment captures the tone of this entire dialogue. Whenever politics appears as the center of dialogue on this (or any Christian) blog, peoples’ thinking, sensitivity, and openess gets amputated. I’m not immune from my own indictment. But taking a privileged vantage point on someone else’s career, summing it up neatly and then concluding “I am glad Jesus did not do the same” just hurts.
MW,
Missed it again. Jesus said what he wanted to in a public forum and did not privatize his comments. He died for it.
If Dr Elrod has something important to say, let him say it publicly. It may change the world as Jesus did, as MLK did as Ghandi did.
I am saying this is a chance for Dr. Elrod to stick to his guns regardless of public opinion and to create discussion where it needs to be created. Let your light shine don’t hide it under a bushel.
If this hurts you MW then sorry, I don’t see the hole in my argument. A true visionary can take some criticism and character attacks. A true visionary must or he is man or woman who is half convicted. I want someone who is all in.
MW,
I am on the side of Dr Elrod. I think his blog needs to be public and if Harding doesn’t like then let censorship happen, don’t preempt it.
This would only further solidify Dr Elrod’s points. We have women as second class participants in our heritage. Its time someone should stand up and say things like: Women for elder and women for preacher, etc.
Maybe Dr Elrod will go all in and stop the unthinking nonsensical ways of our heritage and bring it into the 21st century.
I like people who question things and allow themselves to think.
Well, the hole in your analogy, rather gaping is this: A bunch of Christians should not deal with people like Caesar. And a person not wanting to create divisiveness in his church is not like Martin Luther King standing up to the racist south. To compare M.L.K.’s fight on racism, to Elrod’s battle against other Christians with opinion-intolerance is dismissive.
When Christians being silenced by other Christians is comparable to Jesus being executed by the Roman Empire, because both involved ’standing up for what you believe in’ we have some serious theological anemia.
Read the blog comments of ME (Elrod) no one silenced him except himself.
I’ll take iron for my theological anemia if you will read the comments.
“And a person not wanting to create divisiveness in his church is not like Martin Luther King standing up to the racist south.”
No it would be like MLK not wanting to create divisiveness in Southern churches and silencing himself. That did not happen. But it did in Dr Elrod’s case. Jesus not wanting to create divisiveness in the synagogue chose to silence himself. This didn’t happen either.
The gaping hole you supposedly found is not even a crack by your argument.
This is what your argument doesn’t acknowledge: he is silencing himself for a substantive reason. He’s not closing down a blog, he’s invested thousands of hours into, because a person called him up and said: “Ahem, this is your employer, would you politely consider closing your blog down.” Your narration of this event puts all of the onus on M.E. The synagogue didn’t crucify Jesus, and it didn’t have the power to. And the very fact that we can create analogies in which the one doing ‘the crucifying’ is Christians, and we don’t highlight their responsibility is the very basis for this discussion being problematic. Christians shouldn’t be forcing their brethren to be the ‘Gandhi’s’ and ‘M.L.K.’s. And when they do, are response shouldn’t be “Man up!” “Be like M.L.K.” The Christian identity of those creating acquiesance to silence should discredit analogies involving pagans. Your narration doesn’t suggest it does.
Ah, the blessings of being independent…where I can look at the candidates, evaluate each, vote for a democrat, republican, a mixed ticket, including an “off-brand”…each time voting for the one whom I believe would be best for the country…not worrying about “party line.” I have no one to defend…just compare what each candidate says to what I believe Scriptures teach.
MW,
I’ll give you the last word.
M.W.,
You seem to be missing the fact that Leland is in favor of the commentary offered by ME. I think he just wants him to fight on in the face of adversity instead of going underground. I don’t really have a dog in this fight, but I can see how those who didn’t know ME and consequently won’t be invited to participate in his private discussions, feel a little cheated. Most everyone feels cheated by those who would go to his employer and cause trouble for him (I still insist we don’t know the whole story and probably shouldn’t speculate as much as we have). But I think Leland is saying that Mark’s unwillingness to take a stand against what he views as Phariseeical behavior (that’s a better parallel than pagans) is cheating him out of a forum that he feels is needed.
I personally didn’t read Mark’s blog alot because I felt it was a place where a lot of mean-spiritedness was festering in the comments(from both sides).
On the flip side this has caused me to think about the millions of comments that have been made on sites like this one, that otherwise might have been never heard and I think we are better off for these sites. There is a ton of disagreement, but I always enjoy the challenges that are presented by people who don’t agree with me and opportunity for me to reconsider, become steadfast, or just continue to ponder topics that matter.
Kyle, Leland,
Good points made. I guess I misinterpreted.
Did I miss something or just misunderstand when ME said he was not pressured to go from public to private? If he wasn’t pressured, then half of the stuff on here is extremely off-base; if he was, then the dishonesty on his part is over-whelming.
What constitutes ‘pressure’?
Whatever ME meantb when he used the word “pressure”
Oh. Now I see.
“GKB Jul 8th, 2008 at 9:09 am
Oh, and if the aforementioned blog was able to somehow skirt the vile history of racism and segregation in this country, like the McCain blog has. Because, ageism and racism are pretty much the same.”
NO - age and race are NOT pretty much the same.
“Baron Jul 8th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
I don’t feel bad for Mark. He silenced me a couple of years ago, because he didn’t like my views and couldn’t respond to them in a logical, rational manner. Rather than defend his positions or respond to me when I pointed out the (multiple and repeated) breakdowns in his thinking, he locked me out.”
Like I was once told, “it’s my blog, and I can talk about what I want to talk about.” I was the one told this by a very strong conservative republican when they didn’t like me pointing their inadequacies. I didn’t like it either. This person made it impossible for me to comment any longer on their site. Even told me she was “watching me.” So it works both ways.
On Dr. Elrod and Harding, it’s all about the $$$s. Large contributors didn’t like what ME was saying and indicated they would contributing their big bucks to the school. Dr. Elrod did the right thing in regards to the school. He believes in the school and their mission - you can always have stupid and close-minded people anywhere. This way he can still maintain his positive influence and no one is hurt. Big sacrifice in my opinion. It’s very sad that so many christians can be “bought.”
“GKB Jul 8th, 2008 at 9:09 am
Oh, and if the aforementioned blog was able to somehow skirt the vile history of racism and segregation in this country, like the McCain blog has. Because, ageism and racism are pretty much the same.”
NO - age and race are NOT pretty much the same.
“Baron Jul 8th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
I don’t feel bad for Mark. He silenced me a couple of years ago, because he didn’t like my views and couldn’t respond to them in a logical, rational manner. Rather than defend his positions or respond to me when I pointed out the (multiple and repeated) breakdowns in his thinking, he locked me out.”
Like I was once told, “it’s my blog, and I can talk about what I want to talk about.” I was the one told this by a very strong conservative republican when they didn’t like me pointing their inadequacies. I didn’t like it either. This person made it impossible for me to comment any longer on their site. Even told me she was “watching me.” So it works both ways.
On Dr. Elrod and Harding, it’s all about the $$$s. Large contributors didn’t like what ME was saying and indicated they would contributing their big bucks to the school. Dr. Elrod did the right thing in regards to the school. He believes in the school and their mission - you can always have stupid and close-minded people anywhere. This way he can still maintain his positive influence and no one is hurt. Big sacrifice in my opinion. It’s very sad that so many christians can be “bought.”
It always makes me upset to see the amount of “followers” that GKB and ME have. If you read many of their comments they actually seem to really enjoy making people angry and picking fights. Not at all respectfully diagreeing at the beginning of a conversation then getting to something new to avoid an argument, but saying things like”this is fun”, when clearly the other party is upset. Very disappointing and a HORRIABLE example to younger Christians or non-Christians.
Just for the record: Harding has a number of faculty, staff, and contributors who are strong Democrats. I believe if a poll were taken, you would find most people affiliated with Harding are NEITHER major political party but independents who study each candidate’s qualifications. I have been here over 50 years, worked in various fields on campus, and there is harmony among most people here regarding politics. Most people on campus are more interested in following Christ than a political party, and their lives show it.
I have followers? Wow, that’s cool.
I find it interesting that on blogs all opinions are created equal. Academia, informed knowledge, call it what you want. All credentials are democritized on account of being human and adult. A person can argue with another individual who has a doctorate in Political Science, about politics, and scoff at the flagrant incoherence in their thinking. Why? Because they watch the evening news and they’re smart. I don’t think you see this type of things in the hard sciences. Guys that read Men’s Health aren’t decrying reports that antioxidants really don’t protect against cancer and point out ‘the obvious inconsistencies’ in researched findings. In politics and religion, the fact that you’ve spent years plumbing thousands of pages of literature on one topic means nothing. Except, perhaps, that you’re more unsettling.
GKB…You just made my point. I think it is impossible for you to read something and just let it go. Or, God forbid, examine yourself and maybe change an opinion based on what someone else says. For example, maybe read what I wrote and think “gee, maybe I am always on the defensive and making passive agressive comments. Maybe this isn’t the kind of attitude I should portray.” Instead, you just see it as an opprotunity for attention. Such a shame.
What got Mark in trouble was his outspoken support of homosexual marriages—nothing more nothing less!
John, you are absolutely correct that it was his public support of same-sex marriage that caused the problem. You would think such would also cause a problem on this blog, but instead this incident was portrayed as a horrible case of Harding restricting academic freedom and it was portrayed by others as Harding persecuting poor Mark Elrod simply because he was a Democrat. We were all supposed to ignore the fact that he has been an outspoken Democrat ever since he has been at Harding. We were supposed to believe that all of a sudden, because of his “Hussein is my middle name” idea, that Harding had decided to silence him because he was for Obama. What nonsense! Yesterday, this same free-speech supressing school issued a press release about Mark’s upcoming trip to the Democratic National Convention. Hardly the behavior you would expect from an institution accused of trying to stifle someone for being a Democrat. GKB and Mark’s supporters have tried to portray this as someone being told to shut up because he is a Democrat. That is simply not the case.
M.W. said, “In politics and religion, the fact that you’ve spent years plumbing thousands of pages of literature on one topic means nothing.”
Yes, it sort of does seem to mean nothing when you have done all of that and then, as a Christian educator say, I am for same-sex marriage. It makes you wonder just what a person has learned from all that study.
Donald,
Don’t expect any backtracking from too many people here in regards to their condemnation of Harding. There is an obvious dislike for the school among many here for a number of reasons.
GT, why do you believe that HU has almost 7000 students? Keep running them down…we must stop so many students from going there. They are turning out a bunch of highly able graduates who are making a difference in education, industry, medicine, law, ministry, finance, etc and they must be stopped. With your leadership and the help of your friends we can stop them!! You are the man to do this GT! John
I think you misunderstood my tongue in cheek remark. I think. As a Harding grad and the father of a recent graduate I’m very proud of the school.
Around here you can’t always tell where people are coming from.
AvaP:
I can, too, pass up a comment and let it go!
I have followers? Wow, that’s cool.