From a recent editorial in Christianity Today:
. . . Vitriolic language directed at political figures does not, to use the Pauline metaphor, attract others with “the aroma of Christ.” It just creates a stench, making it more difficult to nurture relationships with those who want to meet Christ and who happen to support Clinton. Such talk easily slides into denigrating those on the other side of the political spectrum—who may just be on the other side of the aisle on Sunday mornings.
None of this precludes vigorous and pointed disagreement in the public square. Neither John the Baptist nor Jesus nor Paul was always meek and mild when they challenged the principalities and powers. But when vigorous political discourse turns into bashing of public figures, it perpetuates a great lie: that they are merely the ideologies and symbols attached to them. When a candidate’s ideology is mistaken for his or her personhood, it masks a crucial truth: that each person, no matter their political views, bears God’s image and matters deeply to him.
While pundits see candidates as punching bags, evangelicals are supposed to see candidates as, well, people. As we ponder how candidates are “fearfully and wonderfully made,” we may haltingly come to realize that the most bold and courageous thing we each could do this election season, no matter who we vote for, is this: Love Hillary.
I don’t get all the hating of Hillary. I can understand disagreeing with her. I can comprehend having deep disagreements, in fact.
But I just don’t get why so many people — including some Christians — hate her so much. Some of these are people who generally know that hate isn’t a recommended Christian virtue.
Like it or not, the woman is a person of deep faith. You can refer to the new book by Paul Kengor (who had earlier biographies on the faith of Reagan and George W. Bush) for information about her Methodist upbringing, her prayer life, and her involvement in Bible studies. It’s called God and Hillary Clinton: A Spiritual Life
For us, the evidence is anecdotal. One time Mrs. Clinton, when First Lady of Arkansas, came to Searcy for an Associated Women for Harding event. My wife had a few moments with her alone and got to share the journey of our family with a mentally-handicapped child.
No photographers were around. No journalists. Just two women talking about a child. And Diane still remembers the compassion, the total focus, the deep faith, and the insight (since she did know quite a bit about the Arkansas educational system and its opportunities) of the First Lady. I have a picture of the two of them, along with two of our friends, that I’ll post here sometime. (Translation: I can’t find it right now.)
I’m not suggesting you should vote for Hillary. I’m not saying I’ll vote for her.
But I don’t get the hatred. Vigorous political disagreement? Yes. Hatred? No.
I’ve heard people make the very worst assumptions about why she stayed with her husband through their trials and about why she’s done so many other things. How do they know that? I’m thankful these people aren’t my closest friends.
- - - -
(Added Monday evening — thanks, Marla. From our Arkansas days [L to R]: Diane, Hillary, Marla, Margaret.)
Mike, dear and beloved pastor/teacher/preacher/minister/friend!
Now you’ve done it. LOL
As intelligent as you are, I’m sure you’re aware that just the mention of either Clinton will give birth to a long, multi-response thread. A thread in which only politics will be the subject.
Not with the intent to minimize one of your precious memories, I’ll make one statement only. When it comes to her political philosophy, I want absolutely nothing to do with Mrs. Clinton. When it comes to her private life, that’s exactly what it is and I’m not privy to her behind-the-scenes modus vivendi, ergo - no comment.
Whomever turns out to be our next President will have the same prayers for guidance that all others have received from me. In some cases, maybe even more fervently than for others.
Good post, Mike. It seems many well meaning Christians cannot just be content with saying they disagree with political policies without making a personal attack on the various candidates. I think we have been somehow convinced that we have to be harsh in order to prove our sincerity. Hopefully this will change soon.
Amen, Mike. I am often amazed at the mean-spirited joking I hear on Sunday mornings.
Mike
thank you for saying this. The question really is, why the hate? We do not tolerate our children saying “I hate” someone. Yet, I too hear people feeling quite morally justified in spewing hate against the Clintons. It is interesting that some feel they can stand against what they perceive as the moral failure of the Clinton’s by engaging in behavior that morally fails who Christ calls us to be….
Oh and I have a theory or two about “why the hate.” Many people cite her drive, arrogance, focus, competitive nature etc as unappealing. Those same characteristics attract them to men in power. I think women in power who have her qualities are a threat. Whether anyone will admit this or not, I think it is true.
Thank you for this refreshingly different post. You say what I’ve wanted to say but didn’t know how.
What I meant by refreshingly different is that it is unusual to hear these words coming from a Jesus-follower. I have heard so many hateful comments from otherwise logical, faithful, loving people. There is an irrationality surrounding people’s strong opinions of Hillary.
Why the hate? I believe that much of the hate is generated at a higher, national level in order to mobilize the people to vote (and act) in certain ways.
I came of age during the Reagan era, and I associated myself for a long time with the Republican party. A few years back I became involved in politics on the local level. A good friend of mine is a Texas State Representative. I attended a state Republican convention. The things I encountered as a part of my closer association with politics were disturbing to me. There is so much demagoguery, so much fear mongering, so many ad hominem attacks, so much flag-waving-Christianity, as though the only status of God’s chosen people are American Republican Christians.
I have no doubt that both parties are equally bad–even evil! I honestly do not think that ‘evil’ is too strong a word for the methods and madness that go on as part of our political process.
I am quickly reaching the conclusion that the only proper roles of Christians is to pray for our leaders, vote our conscience, and stay out of the process.
“Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” I Tim. 2:1-4
Who wants to do an “over/under” estimate on the number of comments this post generates?
DU
Some of us have seen what we consider to be manipulative behavior and dishonesty from Hillary…going back to early years in Arkansas politics…things other people took the blame for, and we had personal association with some of the people involved. We’ve also seen her compassionate side and know she has endured deep hurt in her marriage. She will have my prayers if she becomes President…just as Bill did…and she will have my respect, not because of who she is but because of the office she will hold.
I certainly don’t hate Hillary. I feel sorry for her in a lot of ways, and I strongly disagree with her politics. It bothers me that she will say anything to get votes — truthful or not.
Like you, I don’t like to hear the hatred for her coming from Believers.
But it has been interesting for the past 4 years to hear equal, if not more vicious hatred from left-leaning Christians toward President Bush. I even know of a Christ followers who is proud of his George W. Bush toilet paper.
I agree wholeheartedly with your post, Mike. But like JM states, this goes both ways. But to be honest, I haven’t heard hardly anything about the election from the church members I live with. And there has been ample opportunity.
I’m a pretty conservative guy who is always looking to be challenged on my positions. I read alot of the discussions at the Sojourners website and finally had to quit. It was just as mean-spirited as any right wing website and it was being done in the name of Christ.
I really like the fact that there seems to be some balance returning to Christian political views. I just hope it doesn’t go too far.
Hating anyone is wrong. But remember, that includes our current President who has been unashamedly hated amongst some commentors of this blog. Being against a candidate’s pursuit of power and what that can ultimately mean to our country is far different than hating. The pursuit to serve is different than the pursuit of power. And sometimes it’s hard to tell the difference. It seems to be especially hard in this election regardless of which side of the aisle you lean. It’s a troubled time we live. And in my opinion, we have deeply troubling candidates pursing leadership. God be with us all.
If women would just not try to assume authority over men, we wouldn’t even have this problem. The wisdom of the author of 1 Timothy is finally revealed.
DU — my guess is 159.
I understand the desire to do God’s will in people’s politics, this desire to vote for the candidate they feel is most right or most righteous. I even understand why people feel the need to get involved in politics as far as our governments are put there by God. However, our governments cannot replace or take authority over God, and while it’s not right or wrong to vote or even get involved, I’ve seen too many people make politics their God (I’ve done it too, and had to repent), putting forth all their efforts and study into political platforms instead of being Christ to neighbors or getting involved more with the body.
Politics do not give hope. Only the Christ.
Eric Livingston, are you being serious?
I saw that article in Christianity Today a few weeks ago and I was very surprised and happy to see it. I have always been puzzled by the mean spirited attitude so many active Christians have towards her. Especially those who hate her or are suspicious of her for staying with her husband. I mean, given the number of divorces in this country, shouldn’t Christians be applauding her for that instead of making jokes and hating her for it?
Personally, I think the hatred has to do with the fact that she is a woman.
I became convicted about this awhile back while reading What’s So Amazing About Grace. Phil Yancey mentions having a private conversation with Bill Clinton where he aske “Why do christians hate so much?” I realized that I had critisized Pres. Clinton plenty, lamented how low he had taken the office but never once prayed for him as a Christian brother traped in sin - one not so different from the sin I was trapped in at the time, lust.
I hope I remember this regardless of who becomes president, praying for them as a person needing the Lord, Kent
Amy, no. Sorry I thought it was tongue in cheek enough that I didn’t need to put a jk at the end. Though I’m sure someone somewhere would try to attempt to do some gymnastics with 1 Tim 2.11-15 in order to not vote for Hillary. Rest assured, not I.
I may be naive, but I think the last 16 years have taught most of us that no President is all evil or all good. They are a mixed bag, like most humans. I also don’t think presidents have the power we think they do or that there is really that much difference between the two parties once the speeches have been made. They both act the same. The Christians I know don’t hate any one candidate, but don’t love one either. Maybe tht is as it should be.
I really think the hatred towards the left by Christians has gone down in recent years. I do not agree with the Clintons on anything politically…having said that I dont hate her, I just do not want to see her (or Obama for that matter) be our next President, but if they do get elected I will pray for them and hope that they do a good job. I would also agree with the comment above about their being a double-standard when it comes to hatred. President Bush has been villified by many left wing Christians on blogs and in the classroom as well. Hate is hate no matter who you direct it to.
Strong post Mike. And this coming from a guy that is not too crazy about Hillary!
As I have gotten older, I have been amazed at how tricky the political arena is in the United States. I believe that much of this is due to the two party system that is so strong here. To win at a national level, you MUST toe either the democrat or republican party line. So what about all the messiness that lies in between those two?
Your friend Landon Saunders talks about how many faiths have been lost in coffee shops because of the way people hear Christians talking about those caught in sin (i.e. Bill Clinton) and think “what would they say about me?!?!” It’s so very true.
Love God, love your neighbor.
Mike,
Good discussion and thought starter.
Over under. Less than 159.
Jesus stayed focused on staying busy teaching his disciples and helping the outcast without yoking up with the Pharisees or the Tax collectors.
When either of these groups (religious or political) interupted His work to help.
He knew their hearts.
(I don’t.)
He did a variety of things with them.
-Escaped their traps.
-Overturned tables showing He hated their behavior.
-Said little.
-Said nothing.
-Died for them and for all of us who were weak, powerless enemies of God until He saved us.
I think the point of Yancey and the CT article was.
We are all in the same boat. Sinners saved by grace.
I remember an elder at our congregation teaching a class I was in during the high point of the Bill Clinton, Paula Jones case saying, “Probably if I had the same temptations of Bill and Hillary I would do even worse.” Blew my socks off.
Of course, no place for hate and hateful talk about folk.
Must pray for them.
Yet, we must be bold with those who call evil good and good evil regardless of their political party.
Thanks again Mike.
If you were fishing for high hits today I think you hit a home run.
Larry Wishard
why is it that you seem to be standing so close to me? OH! it’s because you are standing on my toes!!
i can’t say that i truly hate her, but i, like you, will probably certainly not be voting for her. i have found myself asking myself this question, “if i find mat 22:37 as one of my favorite verses, why do i feel such a dislike for someone?” argh!!
i have to say thank you, because you have reminded me that if i really call myself a christian, then i need to act like one.
I once lived in Arkansas and had the opportunity on two occasions to meet and talk with then Governor Clinton. The first time, I was able to speak with him one on one for about ten minutes. I have never met a person who had the ability to make a person feel like he was the only one that mattered. He was and is a master, but I would never vote for him or his wife. Mike, I am trying to think if you have ever written anything as gracious about President Bush. You probably have, but I don’t remember. I would like to write a good bit more, but I don’t want to get toasted more than I probably already will. Blessings.
The comedian and late-nite host Craig Ferguson recently had a great line about Hillary Clinton (though it may not be appreciated by some here)…
Ferguson was commenting on recent reports that John McCain is considering Condaleeza Rice as his vice-presidential running mate; Ferguson said that Rice would be a natural for the job, as “she’s a female Hillary Clinton”…
I agree that hatefulness towards Hillary is wrong. I’ll probably vote for her if she is the nominee.
But, the tone so far frames her as an innocent victim. She has also been party to fear-mongering and political savagery. This is no excuse to hate, but the distance I feel towards her has more to do with the way she has run her campaign than “vigorous political disagreement.”
Anyways, how can a democracy elect presidents from two families for a quarter of a century?
Assuming she is elected to two terms, by the end of her second term I would have lived with a Bush or Clinton as president for over 80% of my life. I would have no memory of a president besides a Bush or Clinton, and I would be 33 years old! If you are an ACU Freshman, then you would be 27 years old, and for your entire life you would have been under a Bush or Clinton presidency.
I need a change.
Thanks for (most of) the comments.
rcorum - I haven’t written anything quite like this about President Bush. But then, my wife has never had a meaningful conversation with him. He never shed tears over the challenges of my daughter. I’m not saying he wouldn’t; I’m just saying we haven’t met him.
Christians should not hate Sen. Clinton, Sen. Obama, Sen. McCain, or Pres. Bush.
That does NOT mean, however, that we should be shy about attacking policies (which, in my experience, is what Sojourners does). If you don’t like the policies of Hillary . . . or of George Bush . . . then you’re free to let that disagreement be known.
I suspect the reason Christianity Today wrote about Hillary-hating is because the level of hatred for her among Evangelicals is almost unprecedented and is certainly scandalous.
Good point, Topher. I’m not declaring her blameless; nor am I declaring her my candidate.
Bingo, Mike……Christians shouldn’t hate ANYBODY!
DU
“Bingo, Mike……Christians shouldn’t hate ANYBODY!”
Well…except the Devil.
And if he doesn’t like it, he can sit on a tack!
Thanks for this great post, Mike! I will never forget the lesson you taught while I was at ACU in the wake of Ellen Degeneres “coming out of the closet.” I remember the lesson was advertised for a week or two along the lines of “Come and hear the Christian response to Ellen!” And your message was so clear and simple and Godly: The Christian’s response to Ellen should be to love her. End of story. And you offered convicting stories and words and portions of Scripture to impress this truth on our minds and hearts. Thanks for impressing that message upon me, and for refreshing that message once again!
I am in the unusual and unanticipated position of finding myself liking quite a lot about all three of the remaining candidates! I may be the only one in the universe who feels that way, but it feels pretty nice to not be struggling with overly negative feelings about any of the candidates this time around. Of course, this may send my weirdness rating completely off the chart. I’ll just have to live with that.
So, when someone disagrees politicaly with someone else it’s called “hate”?
Mike, I’m waiting for your thread chastising folks like Greg Kendall-Ball or Mr. Mark Elrod and their constant, non-stop insulting, ridicule and utter contempt of the GOP and, specifically, of George W. Bush. Their discussions and comments could be seen as “hate” as well.
It’s all about what jersey you have on if it is “hate” or not.
EL, once I checked out your blog I knew you were jokin.
But…you never can tell from the comments over here many days. There have been some interesting interpretations of Scripture to say the least.
Roland, I must admit a point well made.
Roland, you have made a great point. How about it, Mike?
True, Christians should not hate Hillary. It is also true that if we lean to the left politically, we should not become so blind that we can only be offended by, oh, say Ann Coulter, and are seemingly oblivious to the vicious and putrid hatred spewed on a regular basis by the left. To imply (and I’m not saying you did), but for anyone to imply that the religious right has cornered the market on hatred is to be absolutely blind and deaf to the political rhetoric of the day. The most disgusting political rhetoric comes from the left, not the religious right.
Since we have established we should not hate Hillary, would you like to debate why we should also not vote by her?
“not vote FOR her.” I don’t care if you vote by her.
Sorry, I was foaming at the mouth when I wrote this and didn’t proof it very well.
Roland,
Disagreeing politically is simply that: disagreeing. I do not agree with President Bush on a great many things — but I do make ad hoc comments against the man himself. I try to keep my comments to what I actually disagree with: what he is doing. (It is, in a sense, a parallel to “hate the sin, love the sinner.” Note: I am not calling him a sinner; that is in now way for me to determine. But whether I believe his actions to be sinful or contrary to the will of God or against my personal convictions, I am free to say.)
I believe that the focus of this is NOT that people are disagreeing with Sen. Clinton, but rather that they are attacking her as a person. For instance, people speculating on why she remained with her husband does not have to do with policy and is pure speculation. People questioning her personal faith is not equal to questioning her policies. People who refer to her as “heartless,” or “cold” or “a bitch” — those are not people who are focusing on her policies. They are focusing on her person — which they are free to dislike, certainly, but it has in many cases gone beyond dislike to shameless mudflinging against a person that most of us must admit that we do not know. I have never met Sen. Clinton (who, by the way,I notice gets called “Hillary” all the time though her male contemporaries and predecessors are more often referred to by title or last name). I have never met President Bush. I cannot speak to what kind of PEOPLE they are because I do not know. But I can voice my opinion on POLICY. Which I have done and will continue to do — without veering into the realm of senseless name calling and other schoolyard behaviors more suited to playgrounds than to serious discussion.
You are, however, free to disagree with me as well.
Oh this is great–I have to vote for the beer distributer family (McCain’s in-laws)and hope he doesn’t pick a Baptist preacher for his running mate! The doctrine of election can be very confusing!
Matt, I am with you. I have never been in quite this same place before…kind of feels peaceful.
Quiara, if you will take a look at Senator Clinton’s (see, I can be respectful) campaign posters, they way “Hillary.”
By the way, I am disgusted by the remarks thrown toward Hillary — which you have referred to above. Quite frankly, I do believe Hillary has been unjustly and unfairly attacked and I find myself feeling sorry for her at times. That being said, I can’t imagine myself voting for her and I still contend the most vicious rhetoric comes regularly from the left.
“say Hillary,” not “way Hillary” — and I was not making any subconscious remark about weight.
I’ll shut up now since I am unable to type.
Nice post, Mike.
HRC has a lot of good qualities but I don’t want her to be president, primarily because of her vote to authorize the war in Iraq and a few other issues.
My only encounter with HRC was also an enjoyable one and I believe that one of her best qualities how she has worked much harder than many Americans at keeping her marriage together.
But I think your comments also underlie the reason why people like David Lipsoomb discouraged church members from engaging in political activity in the first place: religion is divisive enough without wrapping it in politics. When you bring politics into the church house, it has the tendency to bring out the worst in many people, particularly those who see both religion and politics as zero-sum games.
Who is it who “hates” Hillary? I keep a pretty keen eye on the news and what is going on in the various political races, and even though I admittedly listen to and watch more conservatives than liberals, I have yet to hear one person say they hate Hillary.
I agree with a previous comment that President Bush has had far more hateful talk directed at him than any other person in modern times.
I don’t hate ex Pres. Jimmy Carter but dislike him for the same reasons I do Hillary, Bill, and Obama. I hate what they want politically. I hate that their brand of morality thinks little of the unborn. I have defended Obama and Hillary in our local newspaper because of unfair and racist remarks about Obama, and lies about Hillary.
If the Clintons are people of deep faith they have been very secretive about it. I noticed that after the last two election cycles, when so called evangelicals had such an impact, scores of Democrats with a new found “deep faith” started to crawl out of the wood work. They even declared publically that they would craft a message to appeal to religeous voters in the red states. Some faith huh?
Royce Ogle
Royce
I have heard many individuals (including some Christians)say they hate Hillary. I also think there are more ways to make it known that you hate someone without coming out and saying it. I think all the name calling directed at her (which includes words for women much more offensive than b****) is certainly hateful and unChristian.
Obviously I meant “ad hominem”. My Latin is broken today.
I’ve said all I intend to: disagree politically if you will, but stop calling names and casting aspersions on things you cannot know — on both sides of the divide.
It’s an odd political year. Doug Kmiec, a Professor of Law at Pepperdine and a popular conservative commentator, has endorsed Obama. http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/convictions/archive/2008/03/23/endorsing-obama.aspx
Here’s part of what he wrote:
As a Republican, I strongly wish to preserve traditional marriage not as a suspicion or denigration of my homosexual friends but as recognition of the significance of the procreative family as a building block of society. As a Republican and as a Catholic, I believe life begins at conception, and it is important for every life to be given sustenance and encouragement. As a Republican, I strongly believe that the Supreme Court of the United States must be fully dedicated to the rule of law and to the employ of a consistent method of interpretation that keeps the court within its limited judicial role. As a Republican, I believe problems are best resolved closest to their source and that we should never arrogate to a higher level of government that which can be more effectively and efficiently resolved below. As a Republican and a constitutional lawyer, I believe religious freedom does not mean religious separation or mindless exclusion from the public square.
In various ways, Sen. Barack Obama and I may disagree on aspects of these important fundamentals, but I am convinced, based upon his public pronouncements and his personal writing, that on each of these questions he is not closed to understanding opposing points of view and, as best as it is humanly possible, he will respect and accommodate them.
No doubt some of my friends will see this as a matter of party or intellectual treachery. I regret that, and I respect their disagreement. But they will readily agree that as Republicans, we are first Americans. As Americans, we must voice our concerns for the well-being of our nation without partisanship when decisions that have been made endanger the body politic. Our president has involved our nation in a military engagement without sufficient justification or a clear objective. In so doing, he has incurred both tragic loss of life and extraordinary debt jeopardizing the economy and the well-being of the average American citizen. In pursuit of these fatally flawed purposes, the office of the presidency, which it was once my privilege to defend in public office formally, has been distorted beyond its constitutional assignment. Today, I do no more than raise the defense of that important office anew, but as private citizen.
In my opinion, Hillary must take her marriage vows seriously. Kudos!
The republican/democrat thing has caused more vile feelings since 2004 than I can ever remember. Several of us that voted for GWB in 2000 could not do so in 2004. Our conscience would not allow it. I have even switched parties - once voted primarily republican and now vote totally democrat. Churches in my area have become so political. The message is loud and clear: you aren’t christian if you vote democrat. One of the wives of a deacon where we attended church had “Morality Matters Vote Republican” on her e-mail signature block. I am very offended by this statement. We had men leading prayer, thanking God for giving us a Godly president. What has happened to us?? How can we vote JUST on whether a person is against abortion or not? I don’t believe in abortion per se but it’s not just a black/white issue. There are other things to consider, that MUST be considered before choosing a president.
Mike I have another real question. I went back and read your reaction to Harding inviting Ann Coulter to speak there. You seemed to take great exception to the fact that Ann could speak and Jeff Walling could not. My question is that if Hillary was to be the speaker would have you had the same reaction?
I didn’t object to Ann Coulter speaking there because she is conservative. Harding tends to be a conservative school, and I would expect mostly conservative speakers. I objected because she is a purveyor of hatred. The school apparently recognized that and uninvited her.
And Hillary isn’t?
I think “very passionate” is a better word than hate. Nobody want to see her dead! Just quite. Quiet about saying she is so spiritual but votes pro choice. She has such a wonderful prayer life and bible study participation but justifies lie after lie. She looked like a deer in headlights when debating Huckabee and spiritual issues came up. It’s more frustration that people are venting not hate.
rcorum,
You’re kidding, right? You’re comparing a US Senator to Ann Colter? You’ve lost your marbles.
rcorum,
I think Mike has made it crystal clear that in his experience (and that of his wife), Hillary is not a “purveyor of hatred” in the same way Coulter is. That’s the point of the post. Publicly, Hillary has never said anything near the ballpark of the filth that comes from Coulter’s mouth, and privately — well, Mike’s personal story is certainly telling, no?
——–
The best comment of the day award goes to ME (5:06 pm), who reminded us of Lipscomb’s wise guidance to people of faith to subvert the empire and its penchant for division and vitriol. I think Jesus would say the very same thing to people of faith today. (in fact, I think he actually is …)
Truth is, most of us can’t hear this because we are slaves to the Empire.
Strongly recommend the book, “Jesus for President.”
Steve - Am reading that book at this very moment. Will blog about it later!
Mike, is Bill Mahr also a “purveyor of hatred?”
I tell you what I hate right now. This blog. Not any one person, and certainly not you Mike, but the personal name calling. Hillary has been caught in lie after lie. I don’t find that much different than Coulter. I have not lost my marbles. No, Maybe I have for taking the time to post on this blog.
Jim, God bless you. I think you will find a bunch of people who are very selective in how they point out for their hatred.
That should be “who they point out” I need to stop now. You know that religion and politics gets people worked up.
rcorum, Thanks, I know what you mean. I have noticed that there are some Christians who portray themselves as non-partisan and apolitical always like to tell Christians who vote for Republicans that they should feel ashamed for any excessive rhetoric coming from the right. I would just like to see a little more balanced outrage. The rhetoric that comes from the left is not only hateful; it is often extremely vulgar and very anti-Christian. Yet, I find it curious that some Christians only conjure up any outrage toward those who might be said to be part of the religious right. I find that very interesting.
So, I ask again (and I will spell his name correctly this time), is Bill Maher a purveyor of hatred?
The older I get the more I think that perhaps David Lipscomb got it right on political involvment by Christians.
Roland,
I get plenty of chastisement off-blog, thanks.
Did ME get a “Mr.” because he’s old? I feel sort of left out…like it’s a double whammy.
Bill Maher? Don’t know. Never see him or hear him. Is he a Christian? (The topic of this blog is the hatred of Christians.)
It gets real tough to distinguish between passionate political discourse and un-Christian commentary. Contrary to the views of the religious right and the religious left, it seems to me that Jesus never made political commentary. He was almost always talking to individuals. So we have no real Biblical example of how to engage this process that seems so prone to hypocrisy and anger-laced speech. I’m not sure how one can really engage in this process and still follow Christ. No matter which side of the political spectrum you fall on, your comments here could be perceived as a turnoff to the lost of the other side.
Perhaps Steve’s comment really is the comment of the day.
Mike, I was talking more about the commenters at Sojourners as far as tone goes. But the problem with Sojourners to me seems to be that they are accessories. If you are going to hang the name of Christ on your political positions (which as I’ve said I think is a mistake) then I think you have to clearly distance Christ’s name from any of the ugliness that comes out of the process you are engaged in.
Again, I’ve lived in some conservative and liberal areas and can only remember one person saying anything hateful about any politician (it was about Gore). I don’t expect you to be balanced in your articles. Clearly, you are left-leaning and I don’t think you’ve ever been hateful. Can you give us some examples in personal experience of Christians being hateful towards Hillary?
I’ve just got back from editing the Wikipedia article on marbles. The first sentence now reads: A marble is a small spherical toy usually made from glass, clay, agate, or rcorum’s Hillary/Coulter comparison.
We at Politics & Culture find it interesting that Mike chose to defend Senator Clinton. Why single her out? As others have pointed out, President Bush has received his share of hate speech from left-leaning Christians (some are regular visitors to this blog). Where’s the outrage? Where’s the righteous indignation? Where are the tears???
If Ann Coulter were to write about Hillary toilet paper, and compare the Senator to excrement, many of those who comment here (not to mention the blow owner) would rail against such hatred and insensitivity. Yet, Mike’s friend Greg Kendall-Ball (who led the charge to get Harding to cancel Ann Coulter’s appearance) proudly displays his George W. Bush toilet paper on his blog, and compares our President to human waste.
Don’t misunderstand — we have some serious disagreements with President Bush.
But we just don’t get why so many people — including some Christians — hate him so much. Some of these are people who generally know that hate isn’t a recommended Christian virtue.
P&C said: But we just don’t get why so many people — including some Christians — hate him so much.
Well P&C, I just surfed your site and guess what? You’re a part of the reason.
To the person above talking about Ann Coulter with Hillary toilet paper…that won’t happen because Coulter is supporting Hillary ths year no joke…I would agree above with those citing several people and their blogs that have said not only said hateful things about President Bush but also about our troops in blog postings. In addition I really feel like their needs to be some sort of discussion about some of our Bible professors and how they allow their own personal politics to come out when they teach.
If you’re interested in viewing the toilet paper mentioned in the comment above, click here.
I can see how someone could infer that I held our current President and fecal matter in the same regard, but the toilet paper gag is a little more subtle than that. I would explain, but my mom told me that you shouldn’t have to explain jokes.
And, just to be clear, I would never *use* the Bush-imprinted toilet paper, it’s way too expensive!
How many comments does mine make?
I want to comment from the heart about what this post makes me think…
RED SOX IN FIRST PLACE!!!
WOO!
GKB,
You not pacifist anymore?
Wiping your ass with our current president’s image could be misconstrued as hatred.
If anyone thinks Hillary ain’t hateful and divisive drink the purple Kool aid. Mike knew them before power hit them square in the head, unless you call leading Arkansas powerful. Razorbacks suck; postponing the home and away deal they had with Texas. Now that’s some hatred right there, I don’t kerr whur ya frum.
I am voting McCain. He’s a war hero who is against torture and has been an actual commander before. But what until the democratic mess stops for Hillary to lay full bore into McCain with hatred, fearful and divisive speech, much like she does her competitor now.
It’s about the power baby!!!!
Thanks Mike. I made a link to this blog on my site. I needed the perspective. You rock, my brother!
P&C,
Before you can say anything else, I think you might want to explain what the doctored picture of Barack Obama on your website is supposed to mean. What is that about? I have one interpretation. And your brazen and contemptuous racism is both disgusting and repulsive. It is a smear on the church that any Christian would associate with you other than to reveal Christ to you and bring the love of Jesus to your disturb and distorted heart.
Tim is right. You’re part of the reason! A big part.
Hmmmm… lost in all this food for thought. Thanks Mike, and to many of you who have written such toughtful comments. Apologies in advance for seeming scattered with my own.
Hatred towards anyone is not fruitful in the Kingdom we should all be focusing on. But after reading all this and watching the American news (Fox) shows that get broadcast over here, I am just so sick and tired of all the political and religious pundits who think they speak for God, and all the media spin in this long presidential race. We who live in other countries know that so few Americans will actually cast a vote in November, yet our way of life will still be greatly affected by the results. And most Americans are so totally disconnected to the fact that how you vote matters to the rest of us. That’s one reason so many of us here know so much about the politicians and political campaign in the US whilst most Americans still think Thatcher was great for the UK, Tony Blair is still our PM, and who IS that guy named Gordon Brown? If he’s a Scot then what’s he doing in England? Sometimes Christianity in the US doesn’t seem to help, especially when the bulk of the bashing and hatred makes the news that bounces across the ocean.
This year during Lent and leading up to Holy Week we studied the politics going on in Jerusalem and the surrounding countryside during the time of Jesus’ ministry. It was politics that eventually and technically put Jesus on the cross. His suffering, although prophesied, was so graphically brutal not just because times then were harsh but also because of the political hornets’ nest going on at that time. Pontius Pilate had headaches every day of his posting there putting out fires between the Jewish leaders and others they were openly uncivil to. Who wouldn’t? (It would be like having to keep peace at PCC meetings or elder’s meetings on a daily basis. Not everyone lives in a smiley face world…)
The battles between the rulers and religious leaders, and those who followed them then, have not changed much by today’s news. The vitriolic spewing and the behaviour of those who were supposed to be Godly resemble much of the tenor in today’s society. There is still little respect, tolerance, compassion and loving treatment towards those who are ‘different’.
Religion and politics are so imbedded with one another that it is just downright discouraging. Man, this whole thing can be so depressing!
Then I read again how an entire village of Samaritans accepted Jesus and his disciples, rejoicing to embrace them and a new way of life, in the midst of all the hatred and name calling going on back then. Do you think they stopped rejoicing when the Jews who were ‘correct’ and even followers of Christ continued to criticise and judge them?
As I re-read it I am reminded that even today the prayer Jesus prayed in John 17 has relevance.
So there’s hope. And as much as we all care, we should light a candle and pray God’s guidance on each of the three candidates, regardless of how we feel about people most of us have only read about and seen through the media’s lens yet have not had the grace to meet with personally for 20 intense minutes.
Peace!
Yup…I think Lipscomb may have been right. Maybe this is the doctored picture with real meaning.
http://timothymarklewis.blogspot.com/2008/03/only-one-source-of-hope.html
Leland,
“Razorbacks suck.”
Okay, now you’ve crossed the line. By far the most offensive comment from this post.
LukeD,
If its any comfort oklahoma sucks more.
i have quickly becoming less and less political, and closer to a Lipscombian view, and I believe this discussion has helped to push me to a commitment.
thanks. you have made a great argument for at least indifference, if not abstinence.
Looks like it’s just you & me, Julie Danley.
Isaac,
I can see how someone could infer that the doctored photo is racist, but the gag is a little more subtle than that. I would explain, but GKB’s mom said that you shouldn’t have to explain jokes.
Oh, snap!
From the mouths of babes…
And, if a child mouthing “That’s Racist!” doesn’t do it for you, I know this will.
Yes, P&C, jokes shouldn’t be explained! Racism is not a joke. I bet you’re hilarious at David Duke Celebration Day Parties.
That is a great story of Hillary, one that is not mentioned much.
http://www.matthewsblog.waynesborochurchofchrist.org
The command to love our enemies does not hold true only if they’re nice to us. Saying “they spew hate too” is a cop out for us not to do as Christ demonstrates.
Tim,
Christ would have hated the sooners I am sure.
Good word, Mike. No need to comment. Just a good, true word. In my experience (and in yours) the people most hated and criticized often turn out to be really great in private conversations, huh?
No, Christ would have hated the BCS.
Tim said, “Saying “they spew hate too” is a cop out for us not to do as Christ demonstrates.”
Tim, who made such an argument?
I have not participated in this blog for a while. I needed a break and now I remember why.
It is imperative that Christians be active participants in the political process. Not so an agenda can be achieved, but so the political process can be commenced with integrity and so the light of Jesus can shine in a dark place.
I have been an elected office holder for more than 14 years. The harshest conversations I have had related to issues facing me in my elected capacity have been held in the church foyer between Bible Class and worship services. I have learned over the years how to delay those conversations. However, the time delay of the conversation does not delay the fervor of their passion.
Bottom line: Christians should be passionately involved in the political process as voters, candidates and office holders. Yet, their passion should not be such that their Christian light and influence is obscured by their obstinate opinions.
I was commenting on the heart of some of the comments on here, not verbatum, and wondered who would argue with it, but since you want clarification.
Roland
Apr 21st, 2008 at 4:22 pm
Jim
Apr 21st, 2008 at 7:27 pm
I’m just saying that the love of Christ must be shown to friends and enemies alike, even when they hate us.
“The rhetoric that comes from the left is not only hateful; it is often extremely vulgar and very anti-Christian.”
Many on the left would make the statement of the right.
“The rhetoric that comes from the right is not only hateful; it is often extremely vulgar and very anti-Christian.”
This is equally true - I’ve heard it, as have many others.
Many on the left have been longing for this “balanced outrage” from the right for a very long time - far longer than those on the right have been looking for it from the left.
It comes from both sides and it’s a shame. But for either side to pretend it’s “the others” who need to change their ways is pretty ridiculous.
Roland, quoting that paragraph of mine does not show I was making the argument that one should not do as Christ demonstrates. Sorry, but the link you are trying to make isn’t there as that was not what I was saying.
Greg, if you want to compare comments from the religious right and comments from the left on a vulgarity scale, I’m willing to do it, but it probably should not be done on this blog. Again, I don’t think I am saying what you are trying to attribute here.
My point is that the Christian left likes to point to the religious right’s outrageous statements. I’m not saying it doesn’t come from both sides; I’m just saying I am amazed at how often the Christian left ignores the outrageous comments of their political allies when condemning the Christian right.
Sorry, I should have addressed that first paragraph in the last post to Tim, not Roland.
Jim, I think I would agree, but I’m not sure if we’re speaking about the same groups or not. (I was speaking specifically about Christian right vs Christian left, excluding non-Christian allies on either side.) Maybe we were, in which case I would still argue that they’re comparable. But even so, no doubt both sides tend to point out wrongs or inconsistencies on the other side more so than they will on their own.
To me a big disconnect here is that those on the right don’t take responsiblity for or express outrage when one of their own (side of the aisle) uses un-Christian language toward their political enemies. This would accurately describe me to a certain extent. Any time someone mentions Ann Coulter I sort of roll my eyes because I don’t feel any responsibility for what she says and I feel no need to apologize for it. It may be kind of narrow, but I only feel responsible for what I say myself. I guess if I officially affiliate with the Republican party and they do something in an official capacity that is contrary to Christ’s example then I should claim some responsibility as well and either recitfy that (unlikely) or dissociate myself from that group. But in any event, I tend to just watch what I say myself.
I haven’t really heard a lot of hate here for any politicians that I can quote. It seems both sides sort of want each other to hold their “side” accountable. That is reasonable I guess if we weren’t all supposed to be on the side of Christ first and foremost. This puts me back to my original argument that any political loyalty, no matter how slight can divide me from my true family.
I do think it is necessary to distinguish what individuals say (both here and in our lives) and what Rush Limbaugh and Michael Moore say. I also think it is necessary to distinguish between political discourse and hateful insults.
The gray area to me might be accusations. When someone calls President Bush a “liar”, only they can know whether they truly believe that or if they are just saying it to be mean. Likewise, with some of the stuff I have seen about the Clintons. Sen. Clinton and President Bush have both given their enemies plenty of ammunition to attack their character and the potential consequences for America that they carry. But this seems to be reasonable items for discussion. (How well you can follow Christ in this discussion may be another question.) Even good humor about political personalities or celebrities seems somewhat bearable. But again I don’t think Jesus would go very far down that path. I can’t imagine him thinking that the toilet paper gag was OK. Just like each of us, remember that George Bush and Hillary Clinton are his children too and I think he would be very defensive if you take a low blow.
by the way, Jim, perhaps your statement made it more clear that we weren’t actually talking about the same people necessarily, as I’ve just noticed. you did say “anti-Christian” while I was reading it as “unChristian”. Sorry for the confusion on my part.
The link is there. I didn’t say you were insinuating that you said that one should not do as Christ demonstrates. I’m saying that those comments come across as one not taking responsibility for acting like Christ. There is a difference.
Our actions should not depend on whether or not others agree with us or not. Our actions (and words) should be like the Christ no matter what, and expecting outrage when our enemies hate us isn’t the right response. Acting like Jesus doesn’t come with the stipulation that we can do it only when people agree with us. This post of Mike’s isn’t calling us to be outraged at a certain position or group, it’s calling us to act like Jesus.
Thanks for making me clarify though. Sometimes we all need to in order to not be misunderstood.
Tim, I’m still not sure how my calling for the religious left to speak out against the hatred of someone like Bill Maher can be construed as “one not taking responsibility for acting like Christ.”
Let me try my point again. The religious left can get themselves all in a tizzy when Ann Coulter says something outrageous. However, Bill Maher can make extremely vulgar and offensive statements and I hear nothing from the religious left about it. Why is that? Mike said that he was against Ann Coulter speaking at Harding because she was a “purveyor of hatred.” Now, I know Maher has not been invited to speak at Harding, but I nevertheless decided to ask the simple question if Maher was a purveyor of hatred. I got zilch response to the question. Was it because Maher has not been invited to Harding as was Coulter and thus everyone thought the question irrelevant or was it because no one from the religious left commenting on the blog could bring themselves to say Maher was a purveyor of hatred?
I guess I would be a little more sympathetic to the religious left’s problems with “hate speech” on the right if they showed a bit more concern about what comes from their side of the proverbial aisle.
Of course, a lot of it depends upon how we define hate speech, doesn’t it? For instance, support of any attempt to insure marriage remains between a man and a woman is often defined as hate. When hate starts being defined in such ways, it makes any meaningful conversation pretty tough for those of more “traditional values.” (Of course anyone who would be for such legislation regarding marriage is an ignorant and unenlightened pawn who cannot think for themselves and is easily duped by politicians who merely use the rhetoric of the religious right to get elected — correct?)
I really need to get some work done. I do, however, greatly enjoy these conversations with all of you — even those of you who are hopelessly incorrect.
Note to Greg: You are correct in that I was not excluding the non-Christian allies. My reasoning is that the most vocal groups on both extremes tend to be the religious right and the secular left. That was why I was arguing as I was (plus I like trying to make you guys defend your non-Christian political allies).
The only responsibility we have control over is our own, which is why I try to direct it away from changing others’ behavior and onto ourselves. I can’t speak for Mike, but perhaps you got no response because it wasn’t outrage he called for, but the call for acting like Christ. The difference between being reactive and proactive.
This is why there is no hope in politics, and why I think Lipscomb was dead-on. There should be no “religious right” and “religious left”. It’s just too divisive. The only identifying mark I need is Christian.
Good post and excellent responses. I especially like Tim Lewis’. If we are disciples, we are of a much greater eternal kingdom and shouldn’t allow ourselves to be drug into the name calling and bickering the is characteristic of carnal, temporary political power struggles.
Hillary rocks! Ha ha!