As I’ve mentioned before, I’m a big fan of the scholarship and writing of Ben Witherington. Though his new book Troubled Waters: Rethinking the Theology of Baptism
“Unfortunately, baptism is one of those contentious issues that pushes us so that we cannot and do not allow the silences in the New Testament text to rest in peace. We fill in the gaps with our own theologies and urgencies, which has led to turning baptism into something it is not: a Christian infant dedication ritual, or a Christian bar mitzvah or confirmation ritual. This result is understandable, because the church today is mainly a nurture organization which has a missionary committee or two. If it were rather a missionary movement that also did nurture, I suspect we would read Acts and the other New Testament evidence quite differently, for what we see in the New Testament reflects the missionary situation, not a settled system of church and sacraments. Most of all, if the New Testament teaches us anything on this subject, it is that we should be prepared for surprises and divine irregularities, and we should accept that Acts tells us that sometimes water baptism comes before, sometimes with, and sometimes after the Spirit has baptized a person into Christ. God can do it how God wants to do it when it comes to salvation. We are playing catch-up ball. And this memo just in: We humans cannot control the liberating grace of God through the sacraments. We are not in charge of such things. We need to stop thinking we are.”
Now that is a great quote! It provides food for thought: Who controls baptism? God or man?
I’m also intrigued by the idea of “desacramentalizing” baptism. If Christian use is contiguous with Jewish use then baptism could/should be performed multiple times during the lifespan to mark transitions and moments of renewed commitment and repentance. This usage would take the “magical thinking” out of baptism.
Personally, I think a church should baptize the entire congregation, whole families together, every Easter. The tradition would be to go shopping with the family for new white cloths. You then go “to the river” on Easter and get baptized at dawn with the sun rising the the East and change into the new cloths afterward.
God renewed his covenant with Abraham multiple times, so God doesn’t mind repeating his vows. I think we should do the same.
That is what I’d do with the ritual.
Mike, question: If not his new one, what would be a “must-have” Witherington IYHO?
You know the reason that so many people look at our practice of baptism with skepticism is that we have cheapened it to little more than a ritual in order to obtain salvation. One of the main requirements to get to Heaven. As I have researched baptism within the churches of Christ in the USA 81% were baptized before the age of 20, 73% before the age of 18. The number one reason they state for their baptism is not a deep authentic faith in Christ but rather a fear of Hell. Another question I asked of the same group of people was what deep spiritual change did they undergo in the months following their baptism. Many stated some abstention from immorality or adherence to the religious laws and rituals. Only 3.7% stated a significant change in daily behavior and character related to love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, goodness, faithfulness and self control. When asked to define what their “repentance” was like surrounding their baptism most (93%) only responded with the abstention from immorality and the sorrow or guilt for past sins and an effort not to repeat them. Very few 4.2% said that their repentance was the beginning of shaping character to love, joy, peace, patience etc. 61% of the same people were re-baptized 2 or more times later in life. Either because they discovered faith for themselves or felt that had done so many bad things that their initial baptism was no longer valid to get them to Heaven. The issues became clear, baptism within the cofC in USA in the past 100 years was mostly done out of fear not faith, and very little of the baptisms resulted in biblical repentance. I Pet 3:21 says this baptism now saves you not the removal of dirt from the body (it is not just a religious ritual that gets you to Heaven) but is rather the pledge of a good conscience toward God. At the heart of baptism is an authentic faith and sincere change that is much more than the simple abstention of immorality but the transformation of ones’ body mind and soul. So if we want to improve baptism then goal is not heaven but authentic faith, deep spiritual changes to character and behavior, and ultimately discipleship!
Joe,
I’ve always had mixed feelings about this. Some of the reasoning that you propose should be the driving force behind baptism don’t come until later in life for many folks. Spiritual maturity to me implies some experience has been had and mistakes have been made. Does one need to be spiritually mature to be baptized, or can it happen at an early stage in spiritual life while fear is still the main motivation.
When I read your statistics, the question that comes to mind is of those folks who are moved to baptism by fear, is that still their main motivation or have they matured into the authentic faith. If they have then I would say at the very least churches need to do a better job at discipling young Christians into a mature authentic faith.
Great quote.
I’m sure some will read Witherington as if he were saying, “To Hell with the whole practice of baptism!” That’s just how arguments go around these parts. Clearly, however, he is not. He is reminding us of the sovereign power and might of our missionary God to “add to the church those who are being saved” however he wants to. He’s God, and we finite creatures should stop telling him how he works. He knows how he works, and chances are, we’re probably wrong anyway.
Baptism is just one more tool the inmates have used to attempt to take over the asylum.
Canada Jim -
One I really like is The Problem with Evangelical Theology: Testing the Exegetical Foundations of Calvinism, Dispensationalism, and Wesleyanism
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I like Witherington’s emphasis on the New Testament as a mission document as opposed to a manual for how to be a settled church. But the exceptions regarding baptism in the Book of Acts are pivotal, historic exceptions that have the effect of highlighting the norm. If the Almighty intervenes, that’s his call. But telling people that they should repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit is no attempt to put God under obligation and ourselves in charge.
Baptism is when the sinner reaches out to aceept the grace of God. Not a meaningless ritual but a time of rebirth. And yes to save from God’s wrath. One of the reasons we need the blood , the forgiveness of sins and the grace of God. The one who is baptized will rise to walk in a new life. A life of constant growth. A precious , important and significant command from our Lord that must be obeyed to be saved.
Thanks Mike, Merry Christmas to me! That’s twisted, I know, ordering that stuff for myself for Christmas… such is the life of a book-geek…
Kyle:
Actually very few of the average cofC attender knows why they believe what they believe beyond simple Bible banter. Just do this in the next Sunday morning class if you don’t believe me. Ask how many people can tell you exactly where the Bible came from from the names and origins of the oldest available Greek, Hebrew, Aramic, and Coptic codices and manuscripts, how and which Nicene councils approved the cannons etc, how many cannons they went through and so on up to the English translation they hold in their hands and defened as God’s absolute final truth without omitting any details. Usually only one in about 50 can give any decent answer. My point is true the deeper struggles of beleif and un-beleif and the faith that transforms character and behavior is very rare within cofC circles.
Joe,
I think it’s great that we are not required to know all those things. I have just completed a course on the writings of the Apostolic Fathers and while I found it interesting, probably most people would not. What is required is that one knows how to spell “belief.”
Who made you the judge of another persons faith? Oh, and the word is “defend.”
I have witnessed a large number of people being changed into the likeness of Jesus Christ. And all across our great and wondeful brotherhood are the daily reports of converts, of those who have obeyed the gospel and now live for Him and would die for Jesus and are constantly on the move to reach out with the glorious gospel and multiple works of compassion.
Allison:
I am not judging anyone’s faith and no one is required to know these things to have faith in God. My point is this most people don’t know a deep level why they believe what they believe. If you believe the Bible to be true but really don’t have an understanding of how and from where it was developed then there is a good chance that the belief is based on poor and inaccurate information. To this day people defend the KJV as the only one true version but have no idea of where the Bible really originated. Sorry if I did not spell defend correctly I forgot to run spell check.
But back to the baptism idea of “troubled waters”. In the past baptism was not about making disciples of all people or nations but rather dragging people to the baptistery and leaving them there and saying oh there saved now our church has had 10 baptisms this year. That’s great how many disciples did you make. That is what Jesus mission is in Matthew 28. The passage on baptism from Peter that a referenced earlier spoke of Noah’s faith before talking of the water in flood as analogous to baptism not the removal of dirt from the body, it is not a work for salvation but rather the pledge of a sincere conscience toward God. How many people when they were baptized were wrapped up in a sincere deep pledge of one’s self as a disciple toward God?
Ray B:
As I continue to do research of the congregations in the USA I look at the same reports. At deeper look at the reports reveal that most baptisms are not resulting in life long growing disciples but are rather the children of existing members who are so afraid of going to Hell, or someone who already goes to church at another denomination and we convinced them that our way of doing church is more correct or biblical. Very few are people who came from backgrounds of true atheism, agnosticism or unbelief. Do you know that 320 mainline cofC congregations have closed down year so far in the USA because they ran out of people. Less than 10% of people who were baptized from the un-churched background (not the kids of existing members) are still active in any measure of discipleship two years after their baptism, most no longer attend anywhere. Again where is the discipleship? Because that is the mission given by Christ in Matthew 28 not dragging people to the baptistery which was the main idea of this thread “troubled waters”.
Joe,
I am saying that many do become disciples. There are constant reports of the mnay good works in our brotherhood. Sure there are some doors being closed but also many becoming Christians and staying faithful.Jesus in the parable of the soils speaks about 3 out of 4 do not grow but there are many who grow. I guess some are being dragged to be baptized but many are very receptive and respond out of their desire to be saved and remain disciples.
Ray:
I want you to know that I am only sharing information. Not trying to pick and argument. An example of what I am saying related to this post “troubled waters: is this. Until our theology of baptism changes to shape the missiology of making disciples of all people right here around us regardless of race, gender, socio-economic level etc. then we are not fulfilling the great commission. I would put it this way; we can baptize 100 people a day for the forgiveness of sin and the gift of the Holy Spirit and not make one single disciple just like Jesus commanded.
Let us take one of the reports of baptisms with which we are probably both familiar. The Christian Chronicle reported that the crusade for Christ campaign in the DFW area baptized some 400+ people in 2005. Well we went and did a follow up two years later to see how many really became disciples would it surprise you that only 17 people were even still attending a local congregation let alone engaged in serious life changing discipleship. I love to get the same reports; it is wonderful when anyone becomes a disciple of Christ even if it is only one or a relative few. I believe these numbers are evidence that our theology of baptism has fundamental problems. If you think the 320 congregations that closed down this year is just a blip on the screen then please consider this. There are 5,842 churches out of the 9800 mainline cofC congregations that have 55 members or less with an average age over 50. In a few years these congregation will close down as well, as the remaining members die or natural causes. The rate of which we are making life long growing disciples out our children and the lost and un-churched of the general population in no way makes up for those that are dying, leaving, and not being born. The birth rate for non-Hispanic whites (especially the middle that makes up most of the cofC membership in the USA) has been at an all time low below the replacement level since 1990.
So back to the topic of the post until we re-shape our theology of baptism to include an authentic faith and a pledge of a sincere conscience toward God as Peter describes then we will not be making disciples as the mission sets forth, just baptizing for the forgiveness of sin dare I say practicing a religious ritual.
Baptism is an external rite, if it were not why would churches have places to immerse? However, it is not ONLY an external rite. The NASB says it this way:
And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you–not the removal of dirt from the flesh,but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
“Who made you the judge of another persons faith? Oh, and the word is “defend.””
Oh, and the word is person’s.
I think another problem is how to deal with baptism as “second generation” Christians. That is, in the New Testament all we see are the conversions of “first generation” Christians (Witherington’s missionary situation). We don’t see the “conversions” of the children of the first century church.
This puts us in a pickle. When we approach non-believers the texts fit well. But it is hard to look at our believing children, who grew up in the church, and sell the traditional line: “Suzy, yesterday you were going to hell. But today, after your baptism, you aren’t.”
How screwy is that message?
Richard:
You know that Timothy was actually a third generation disciple of Christ. The Bible tells us of the faith that began with his grandmother Lois.
This is something many sociologists have studied for years; why do the 3rd and 4th generations seems to be the ones that leave a religion?
Now take what you said about; how screwy is that message? “Suzy, yesterday you were going to hell. But today, after your baptism, you aren’t.”
That is how the lost and un-churched and our religious friends see it also. Baptists are going through the same thing over the sinner’s prayer. “Suzy, yesterday you were going to hell. But today, after you asked Jesus into your heart, you aren’t.” Again how screwy is that?
I was baptized because my buddies Chris and Russell got baptized and I didn’t want to be the only teen on the youth row at church who couldn’t take communion. How’s that for a conversion!
Ray B,
You sound like an unthinking tract on everything said on this blog. You can feel free to think for self not feel obligated to redeem your heritage.
Ray B,
I forgot to say with all due respect and no offense. Got that from the great Ricky Bobby of Nascar.
I wonder if baptizee 2846 on the day of Pentecost was “just going along” with the first 2845 who were baptized. He may have just been “on a guilt trip” for being told he was responsible for the death of Jesus and needed to “save himself” from a crooked generation. Discipleship is far more than baptism but it certainly includes baptism.
As I think about this, I think social pressure–just going along–continues to play a significant part of my faith decisions. One of the reasons I’ve stayed in CoCs is that if I were to leave, I no longer have conversations that go like, “Oh yeah, I know Fred. He is a deacon in the church where my roomate from Harding used to go to.”
I just wouldn’t have those conversations with Episcopals.
Now, had I NOT gotten baptized in high school. Well, my dad very well may have had to resign from the eldership. How’s that for pressure on a 14 year old. My grandparents would have gone to their graves knowing that their youngest grandchild had not “obeyed the Gospel.” I would have felt like a complete outsider in my community. I didn’t have a choice. I HAD to get baptized for social salvation.
My decision to get baptized had a social component. My faith decisions still do. And I don’t think social motivation is all that bad.
Eddy:
I agree with you. “Discipleship is far more than baptism but it certainly includes baptism.” But the way we taught it and practiced it has led us to a mentality that has been described so far in this blog of just getting wet; obeying the outward form and so on. When did we hear sermons on how discipleship was the goal that baptism was a part of? No what we heard were arguments with our religious neighbors on what the requirements were for salvation. The closest that anyone in our brotherhood has gotten to this idea is F. Laggard in his book “Baptism the believer’s wedding ceremony”.
Joe Baggett:
F. Laggard? LOL! I think the esteemed Dr. Smith might LOL, too, as hard as he works.
qb
Good polite discussion for the most part. Very thought provoking.
Should we view baptism in a way similar to how Jesus described the Sabbath? By that I mean–the Sabbath was meant for man and not man for the Sabbath or baptism was meant for man, not man for baptism? Just a thought. I know I like to look back and say on such and such day I was saved, but honestly my decision to be a disciple probably came before that. There’s something somewhat ambiguous about a “sinner’s prayer.” But there is something very definitive about the act of baptism. (That’s good for we “absolute” people)
I don’t believe any true follower of Christ can look at the scriptures regarding baptism and say, “Well I’m not going to do that because technically it’s not necessary.” Whether I believe it is technically necessary or not, I’m going to want to model Jesus. Who in the world who sincerely loves God and wants to be a disciple would say “I’m not going to be baptized.” I think at the heart of those words is a mind/heart that says “I’ll do things on my terms.”
One last comment. Did Jesus not receive the Holy Spirit upon baptism?
Friendly hint to Joe Baggett. It is “canon,” not “cannon.”
Leland ,
I am not sure what you mean. But it does not matter. I am through with this blog. I get enough grief everyday ; I do not need what is received here.
I’m going to very tentatively step up on a tiny soapbox here for a second:
As much as I prefer to see things spelled correctly, I’m not really sure it accomplishes much to point such errors out here. Will the next step be analyzing sentence structure?
Seems to me that spelling the word correctly if you make a response should be enough.
Now I’m stepping down quickly and running for cover.
Sorry Ray B.
Joe,
I’m not sure what your experience is but your characterization of churches of Christ seems either a little narrow or dated. Since I have moved around the country quite a bit in the last 10-12 years, I have only seen a church that fit your descpriptions once (and I later figured out it was an anti-church).
“When did we hear sermons on how discipleship was the goal that baptism was a part of? No what we heard were arguments with our religious neighbors on what the requirements were for salvation.”
I have indeed heard sermons exactly about baptism being a beginning to discipleship. I have heard multiple preachers encourage congregations not to stop the discipling process after baptism and to take responsibility for the spiritual growth of new believers.
If your assumptions about the mentality of the church were correct, I would agree with you. It would not be good to be in a church that only cares about getting people to the baptistry. I’m just saying, I have never experienced that mentality. Even in the rural church I grew up in.
Now I will give you that we are sometimes ineffective at sustaining discipling relationships and fail to look after our newest brothers and sisters the way we should. But, it’s not because we are against the idea of it. Maybe we’re just not good at it. That doesn’t mean because were not good at one thing we should throw everything out with it.
My wife is an Asbury Seminary grad, so I always like to give an “attaboy” anytime I see Ben Witherington get a little pub here. Another fine person at Asbury I highly recommend reading is Ellsworth Kalas. He has a great sermon where he summarizes the entire bible in book order. It’s a blast!
I think too much clout is given to liberal theologians who happened to write a book.
Eddy,
I doubt seriously whether any of the 3,000 on Pentecost were just going along with the others playing “monkey see, monkey do” baptism. Fresh in their minds was the reality of what the Jewish religious leaders did to Jesus, do you not think the thought that such a baptism might actually seal their physical fate never crossed their mind?
—-
Learning that baptism is an act of self-surrender whereby I trust in God to raise into the victoriously risen Christ is the easy part. Learning to live out the reality of my baptism on a daily basis… There is so much more learning to do.
Rex
Ithaca Church of Christ
Ithaca, NY
Kyle and anyone else who wants to say that info I gave was narrow or outdated:
I have lived all over the US specifically TX, AR, and MS in the last 10 years. I have been researching the cofC for the last 10 years after the church I preached at part time after I got married closed down in Bartlett TX. I have personally visited over 1000 congregations in the continental USA in the past 6 years and spoken with leaders of over 7800 congregations of the 9800 mainline congregations from Mac Lynn’s book churches of Christ in the USA last published in 2006. The statistics and observations are from that exposure and research. I am 31 years old and have family on both sides of the family that were cofC six more generations back, My great grand dad helped establish many of the cofC congregations in MS. My grand dad taught at the sunset school of preaching for almost 30 years. My dad travels the nation raising money for a cofC based organization and I traveled with him when I was a child. I went to ACU, Dad and Mom to LCU, sister and brother to Harding. I have been at lectureships of all the major universities in the last 5 years. But I am not a preacher but a very successful engineer. I think I have an idea of the info I gave.
If we don’t question motives of folks baptized on day of Pentecost, why question motives of folks today?
Joe,
Do you honestly believe your grandfather preached and taught baptism just to “Get folks wet” instead of trying to make disciples of Jesus?
Joe,
I don’t know what to say except that if you’ve had that much contact with churches of Christ and you’ve heard nothing except arguments with our religious neighbors, then you’ve had some bad luck. I can say in the last 10 years I can’t recall a single sermon about baptism that boiled baptism down the way you’ve described. I assume they still happen but more as the exception than the rule. I could be being naive here. I’ve lived in TX, FL, SC, CT, WA, OR and NE. So I’ve spent a good bit of time outside of the south.
You started out this conversation with the statement:
“The number one reason they state for their baptism is not a deep authentic faith in Christ but rather a fear of Hell.”.
I assume you are implying that one should have a deep authentic faith before they are baptized. My point is simply that I disagree. I see baptism as a birth that may well occur before faith can be described as deep and authentic. I don’t think a good conscience toward God is so complex to me to require what I think of as a deep authentic faith. The problem with that in my eyes is now you are putting conditions on baptism. That treads a little closer to the idea that you need to be clean living and a good person before you are baptized. After all if your faith is already deep and authentic, wouldn’t you have progressed into a more holy life anyhow (under your own power)?
Donald,
You said,
“Who in the world who sincerely loves God and wants to be a disciple would say ‘I’m not going to be baptized.’ I think at the heart of those words is a mind/heart that says ‘I’ll do things on my terms.’”
In most cases, I’d agree with you. I can think of one situation in which someone might refuse baptism for an understandable (though not necessarily valid) reason. Some believers refuse baptism on principle. They feel they need to take a stand for the Grace of God, and to make a point about salvation being the work of Christ not the work of man.
Why do they do this? Usually it’s because they have seen so many turn baptism into a “work” via “ticket to heaven” evangelism that they feel a need to make it clear that they themselves did NOTHING to earn salvation.
I don’t think this is a valid reason… and in fact I think it’s sad that some in our tradition and elsewhere have given baptism such a bad rap and caused this extream reaction.
Sad, but given the context, understandable. This is why we need to be clear about the transformative nature of baptism (rather than the transactional model we often employ). This is why we need to be clear that baptism, as has been mentioned earlier, is much more than water. It is a “washing” that is, first and foremost, NOT with water.
That’s what sets it apart from taking a bath.
I meant “extreme” not “extream” for whomever is watching…
Kyle:
First of all in the last six months I have attended churches in New York, Chicago, Seattle, San Bernardino, and Statesville North Carolina so it is not just in the south east and south central United States even though that is where 91% of the members from cofC are.
Kyle if you will look in context of your quote of what I said; “The number one reason they state for their baptism is not a deep authentic faith in Christ but rather a fear of Hell.” I was referring to the children that I have surveyed that were baptized while attending a cofC where their parents were. If you will read the comments on this post you will see several men who have stated this or something similar was the main motive around their baptism as an adolescent in the cofC. The topic of this post was re-thinking our theology of baptism. No where in the NT do I read of people who were baptized because of fear or social pressure but rather I do read of many people almost all in the NT who were baptized because of faith. If we spend our time pointing people to faith in Christ baptism will come as a part of discipleship. The great commission says go and make disciple of all people, baptizing them and teaching them to obey all I have commanded you. The mission is to make disciples not just baptize as many as will get in the water. I believe you would agree with me that most mainline cofC congregation’s measure and report church health by how many baptisms they had a year, or their attendance, or contribution. But how many elderships measure the health of their congregation by discipleship in areas of God’s Spirit such as Love Joy Peace Patience etc.
Most of the baptisms in the average cofC are the children of the existing long time adult members. Thank God we baptize our own children, but where we tend to drop the ball is leading them to strong independent faith.
Any time the majority of people who are being baptized are doing so for any other reasons than faith even if it is only in the beginning stage then our teaching practice and theology of baptism are not healthy and not focused on making disciples.
Maybe you can help me Kyle I am always open to new information as I will be publishing my research early next year. Do you have a tape of one these sermons or a book or other publication that has this theology and practice of discipleship and faith as a motive and baptism as a part of discipleship becoming like God Spirit as is described in Gal 5? If so please send them all to me? This would be welcome info.
Mike, great quote, thanks for sharing it. It has been increasingly striking to me that if anything Luke shows in Acts that the Spirit doesn’t conform to a set pattern on things. Whether it is baptism or how he communicates.
I’m a bit confused, Joe. Are you trying to make a point about second generation baptisms or how we present baptism? On the one hand it seems to me you’re saying that kids aren’t being baptized for the “right” reasons, and on the other you seem to be saying that you’ve never heard a sermon talking about baptism as a part of the natural progression of faith (that continues to grow afterwards) or seen any support of this progression after immersion.
As a forth generation C of Cer who has attended churches all over the world, I’ve heard plenty of sermons on baptism being a part of the natural progression of faith, though I don’t have access to any MP3’s or tapes to prove it. To be fair I’ve also heard sermons where it seemed like getting the person dunked was the main point.
But, as a child, I didn’t really listen to the sermons. So, if I had been baptized as a child, any info I had about baptism and salvation came from my parents and Sunday School teachers.
(Ew. Speaking of poor sentence structure. I think I should have said “would have come”?)
Eddy:
I knew him well. He passed away in 1989. I still run into many people today that knew him and in some cases were baptized by him he was a contemporary of Cline Paden, Jim McGuigan etc. He trained a bunch of the preachers that are now preaching in the cofC brotherhood one of them is the preacher at the church that we are about to join in Longview TX. Did I know his motives? No, how could I? I believe he was doing what he thought God wanted him to do. However I do see the results of this type of teaching and practice. He spent the majority of his time debating our religious friends and even wrote several publications entitled Denominational doctrine exposed the last published in 1986 that outlined all of the errors of the Baptists, Methodists, and Lutherans and so on, and then he refuted each error of denominational teaching with a cofC doctrine that was correct. Most of their evangelism was with people who were already members of other Christian denominations, I remember sitting in with some of the studies he had with people over at their house when I was visiting. It wasn’t about faith but rather how they were in error in the way they did church. Again I believe he was doing what he sincerely thought that God wanted him to do. Do I judge him for that, no in fact I am very thankful to him many things he gave our family. I do however take issue with the hermeneutic, teaching and practices that have brought us to where we are now. The best indicator for a process or product to be improved is the results. The fruits and results our the teachings and practices of the cofC for the last 50 years are now evident ( the good the bad and the ugly); if we can pull ourselves away from our arrogant self delusions of: we have all the answers, we are the one true church, we don’t have any major doctrinal errors and so on. I am thankful for my Grand father and am still friends with many of his contemporaries that are still alive. Would you believe that many of them have studied themselves out of many the “sacred cows” that they so vigorously taught and defended a quarter century ago?
REJoyce, Eddy, Kyle:
Let me clear up a couple of things for everyone. I was not speaking in absolutes though it might have come across that way. There are a relative few cofC churches within the USA who have begun to re-shape their theology and ecclesiastical application of baptism to be centered on faith and discipleship. These would be churches like North Richland Hills, Highland, Southwest in Jonesboro AR and a few more I could list. But the vast majority are still heavily emphasizing the “baptism for the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit” and little else.
What I am saying is that if you talk to adult members of the cofC people age 25-105 as I have surveyed over 15,000 of them in over 1000 congregations. The majority of them say that when they were baptized as an adolescent in the cofC it had little to do with actual faith and more to do with fear and social pressure. I believe that is strong evidence that many churches need to rethink their theology and practice of baptism. Do you know that myself , both my mom and dad and several of my aunts and uncles who grew up in the cofC were re-immersed later in life after 21, some multiple times. This experience is why I started my research. To me this is strong evidence that our theology and practice of baptism is not centered on faith and discipleship and need to be re-thought. That is all I am trying to say. I hope my grammar, spelling and punctuation is correct so that all will be able to read this and understand it LOL!
You know, Dan, in a similar vein I think too much clout is given to conservative “theologians” who happened to write a book, regurgitating things they’ve learned by rote from a pamphlet written in 1962, or from the same handful of sermons circling around a certain five steps.
Joe,
I think you just made the point I was trying to make. Maybe 20 years ago or so, one could say that this “baptism is the end goal” kind of teaching plagued our churches. We are suffering right now as a result because so many who were baptized then (and before) were not discipled. My point is that alot of this has changed. You point out that many of your Grandfather’s contemporaries have changed.
To me it seems that memory is still reality for many in churches of Christ. Many of us are still very familiar with these pieces of our heritage and although there are still reminders, they are not the majority and maybe only a matter of time before those notions vanish from our collective beliefs.
I just don’t feel like it continues to be necessary to criticize the church in this area without giving some credit for the growth that has occurred if nothing else than an encouragement to those out there who have spurred this growth on.
Kyle:
I agree with you Kyle I think our exchanges were just a difference in verbage. I am thankful for the changes and growth that has taken place in some people and some congregations. It is difficult to say what the exception is and what the norm is. The majority of the congregations in the USA that would be 51% ( in my research it would suggest about 79% of the congregations) or more still would be categorized as you and I have similarly described being a part of that “baptism is the end goal” teaching along with no-instruments etc. Though the further you go west, outside the Bible belt, or in major metro areas such as DFW, Atlanta and others; the more prevalent these congregations are that have re-thought much the traditional teaching and practice. This past year in the lectureships at FHU, FU, Heritage, Harding, and a whole bunch of Preaching Schools the main theme or significant sub themes were on the old typical cofC doctrine that we both agree is and was a part of out heritage. To my knowledge only David Lipscomb, LCU, ACU and Pepperdine had lectureships were these items of specific doctrines were not the major addresses. Harding had classes everyday of their lecture against instrumental music in worship. This is an example.
Please understand I am not criticizing people or the brotherhood in general, what I am challenging is the ideas, the teachings, and practices that through my research though it may be different than your experience and observation (and I believe you when you tell your experience) tells me this theology and practice is still vigorously taught and defended not only in the majority of the cofC churches but in it’s institutions as well.
When Jesus himself, says do it. I think it must be important for us to do. You look at the red letters of Jesus and that is what Jesus says in Matthew 28:18-20, “Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in haven and on earth has been geven to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey eveything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always to the very end of the age.” The red letters. In Mark 16:15-ff, “He siad to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to al creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” Jesus said it. It is the red letters of the Son of God. Are we going to follow the red letters? Or put our faith in the red letters instead of the first century Church? It is in Jesus that we believe and become disciples. Emerging forward as Christians we must put our faith in Christ words…His promises…His leading…not in a “century of a weak church, sinners, leadership, etc.” We must focus on the perfection of our faith. Heb 12:2. God help us focus on the red letters.
To all those who want to update the teachings of the CofC, why not just join the Baptist church and save yourself the trouble?
I wish I could write in red letters on this blog.
“The number one reason they state for their baptism is not a deep authentic faith in Christ but rather a fear of Hell.”
C’mon. If you read the bible literally, as most church kids are taught to do, then the biblical vision of hell is terrifying–especially in the “red letter” sections.
As it may surprise you, Joe, I grew up in what may be called a “grace-oriented” church with a relatively robust theology of baptism. Our church was critized by many for being “liberal.” And yet, as a kid I read the bible, studied baptism in Romans 6, and was still baptized for fear of hell and (mainly) social pressure. What kid wouldn’t? Just give her or him a Bible, the scariest book ever published.
So, I suggest that that kids are baptized (as are adults) with limited understanding no matter what kind of church they grow up in.
Dan:
Did you know that the Baptists are going through the same thing? The SBC recently published a research project by Lifeway entitled “Baptists consider what it means to be Baptist”. The report details how many Baptist churches are changing and re-thinking many of their “sacred cows”. One significant thing that many Baptists are realizing is that their sacrament of salvation, praying the “sinners prayer” was not really centered around faith and discipleship either, so they are asking the questions many of us are about baptism. One case and point was at one church when 1700 response cards were turned in stating that they had said the sinners prayer and been saved. But after a year a follow up showed less than 10% were still attending a local church somewhere. They also are re-thinking their leadership structure as an increasing number of Baptist churches are starting elderships that closely resemble those of the cofC. They too are challenging their traditional understanding of the role women fulfill in the church. We actually attended a Baptist church for a while because there was no cofC or Christian church where we lived. The SBC is also reconsidering Baptism but through the eyes of faith and discipleship, because they have had a pretty ineffective sacrament of the “sinner’s prayer” for a while at their own realization. Kind of ironic huh? Just my opinion. I think that re-thinking, re-evaluating, challenging, testing, examining the fruits and results of teachings and practices within any organization is very healthy. When we become un-questionable, above introspection, above systematic analysis then it is not truth or God we seek but rather the emotional security of being right. If we are bothered when we or some else challenges our thinking that is the first sign that we are either wrong and don’t want to admit it, or scared to look at our thinking with brutal honesty and consistency.
I would suggest that we be open to challenge, strong evidence and thinking to the contrary of what has always been taught and practiced. All the people that you may be referring to as “wanting to update the teachings of the church of Christ” are simply following their conclusions and what they sincerely feel that God wants them to do.
Joe,
It is my understanding that in the Baptist Church they baptize as an outward sign they they have been saved through the “sinners prayer” or whatever. It seems to me that this is the direction you want to go.
I agree that one should have an authentic faith and not just “get wet.” Who is to be the judge of the quality of faith before baptism?
Hey Jon:
I am right there with you I too was in the grace oriented congregation from 14-18 after I was baptized the first time at 12 in a super hard-line church in Medina TX. I was sacred to death of going to Hell plus all my friends had already done it. I don’t think it makes a difference either (which church), it is in the way parents and churches present God, Faith and the Bible to our children. We are not making the same mistake with our two kids! We use the children’s Bible to present God as a good being who gives us hope and plans for a future and not to harm us that is concerned with social injustice and the health of our family. At the Bible camp during the summer I worked as a counselor and kids starting getting baptized every night. I was talking to one of my campers 10 years old and he said he wanted to be baptized after talking a while it was apparent the same thing was repeating so I told him we should wait and speak it over wit his parents. When I talked with his parents they became angry when I suggested that he told me that he was scared of going to hell and all his friends were doing it. Then I found out that his Dad was on the slate to be an elder and now we know the rest of the story. This young boy grew up and went to college and now no longer has a significant relationship with the Lord but his Dad is still an elder at the church. So maybe the purpose of baptism at a young age is so that your Dad can be an elder? I was re-immersed at 17 only after learning where the Bible actually came from which no one would tell me but had to find out myself, and basically being a questioning agnostic for two years.
Dan:
I believe that no one is the judge, each person will give an account for themselves and no one else. Why would we want to start adopting the sinner’s prayer? We already have an ineffective sacrament; baptism. That is not what I would suggest. I believe that improvements and changes to the ways we point and lead our children and the lost/unchurched to faith leading up to discipleship and baptism, how we present God and his nature (less of the angry God waiting to punish the smallest doctrinal error or mistake, more of the God of hope, overcoming, grace, mercy etc.), the Bible where it really comes from not the same old answer (some of which is un true), faith in God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit and not in having all the right doctrines and perfect forms of church. In short I believe this is the direction that churches should consider.
Joe,
Do you reveal the aspect of a jealous and wrathful God to your children?
What is the connection in how we got our Bible and the way we present God, Christ and the Holy Spirit? I think we all/most believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, so aside from academic knowledge, what difference does it make?
All I have to add is this…
Hate the misspelled word, not the misled speller.
When I was 10 I went to a church camp in “Po-dunk” Texas where we had to wear long blue jeans in the 100+ degree heat and there were no air conditioners. There was a preacher from San Antonio who preached about hell and baptism every night. he ended with a 20 verse song/invitation that I once ortwice was tempted to answer just to get the song/prayer/eternal service over. But I didn’t. Instead, I lay awake in my bunk every night trying not to go to sleep so that God would not come like a thief in the night and send me to hell for not being baptized. Almost everyone else in my cabin was baptized that week. I waited until I got home to talk to my parents. I was baptized a few weeks later..and not out of fear. I hope they don’t have camps in Po-dunk Texas that scare little girls into taking the plunge to avoid an eternal firey furnace…but it did happen back in the day. Many of my friends had similar experiences. Joe B may be off on somethings, but not everything.
Chris:
May I ask you why you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God? Most people I ask this question of usually have a pretty lame answer; “Because it says so”, or something like that. I am not suggesting that you would. May I presume that most of your faith and relationship with is God and the church is based upon how you read the Bible which you consider to be true? I was preaching in a small town in south MS and read from the NRSV and NIV. After we got done, an elderly lady approached me and asked me why I did not use the KJV or NKJV? I told here that I preferred the others because they were translated in the colloquial English vernacular of the standard English now spoken in the USA. She responded and I quote “well if the KJV was good enough for Peter than it is good enough for me!” At first I thought she was kidding, but she was serious. This is a perfect example of not knowing why we believe what we believe at its worst. This also leads to fear and ignorance that is poison to faith. You know I am not a person who can just believe something without seriously examining the evidence; most of the lost and unchurched in the USA can’t either.
When I was growing up in the cofC, I asked several people to tell me why we believed the Bible was the inspired word of God. The typical answers were only about half the actual information and sometimes inaccurate. Like one answer I would get was how it was a first century document (only a few copies of some NT books circulated before100 AD), along with others that left out the important details. At ACU I got some more answers and then continued to study on my own until I got satisfactory answers. I learned that the Bible was canonized by the Nicene councils over a period of time in the fourth century and that it went through 60 canons and Revelation was actually thrown out for a while but finally made that last canon because the other epistles of John were already in the canon. Do you believe that the Nicene councils were directed by the Holy Spirit in their decision of what books to add or throw out when approving the canons? I also learned that we have evidence that at least two more letters Paul had written to the church in Corinth are not in the NT canon. I also learned that there was strong evidence that suggests that Paul was not the author of some the epistles that claim his authorship. I could go on but I won’t.
My point is this; these are the questions of honest doubt that the lost and un-churched in the UAS are asking in their quest for spiritual meaning and faith especially in the younger more educated professional groups!
yle:
To answer your question we read and study the Bible together and make no excuses and pull no punches. We discuss the stories and let our kids ask all the questions they want without putting answers in the mind. Sometimes my wife and I will tell our children what meaning certain Bible stories have for us personally or what it means for the broader community of faith. Here are some of our guidelines we use for studying the Bible with our children.
1. Always use contextual and back ground (exegetical) perspective
2. Do not try to use the Bible to support previously held ideas or conclusions
3. Ask lots of questions, then ask some more
4. Make every effort to read with no presuppositions
5. Understand that most importantly God is trying to reveal himself to man.
6. We don’t have to have a perfect answer for everything to have the truth and God filled meaning.
7. Take absolutely nothing out of context.
8. Ignore scripture divisions of BCV as they were not a part of the original written copies.
9. Understand that we are human and will always be improving the understanding of the Bible by the questions we ask and reasoning we use.
Sometimes the nature of God is hard to deal with, he no longer strikes people dead because they touched the Ark or anything like that, but we believe we live by a new covenant where we will eventually give an account for our faith and life here on earth. We actually just had a Bible story of Daniel that illustrates the jealous nature of God. But we don’t use God’s nature out of context.
So Joe, if you do not believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, on what basis are people “lost” as you indicate in your last paragraph?
Chris:
Why would you conclude that I do not believe the Bible was the inspired word of God? I do! I just could not believe it without examining the evidence and finding out where and how it really came to be as the English translation I read now. This is the same quest that many of the younger generation in the church and the unchurched also are asking in their personal quest for faith. They can’t believe that it is the inspired word of God just because Timothy says so in his epistle. We have to investigate and find out for ourselves before we just believe! You asked “think we all/most believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, so aside from academic knowledge, what difference does it make?” This what difference it makes: faith without an attempt to answer the honest doubt in the depths one’s soul is not faith but rather empty religion. Faith without understanding why we believe what we believe is the pathway to fear and ignorance and is based more social religion than reliable evidence and thinking.
I am very curious about my two questions to you. I believe I have answered yours.
May I ask you why you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God?
Do you believe that the Nicene councils were directed by the Holy Spirit in their decision of what books to add or throw out when approving the canons? If so, why?
SG:
I can probably tell you which camp it was. Bandina, Iron Springs, Brownwood, Hensel (just outside of Austin) or Koinonia on Lake Texoma. Am I getting close maybe camp Deer Run? My parents actually were the directors at camp Deer Run and I worked as a counselor at all the others. Such a small world?
Joe, I believe the Bible is the word of God based on historical evidence in addition to the fact that it claims to be inspired
I have just ordered a DVD course from “The Teaching Company.” It’s called “History of the Bible–The Making of the New Testament Canon.”
After this course, perhaps I can answer your second question.
Incidentally, I LOVE this company. My husband and I have taken 4 courses from them and enjoyed every one.
I did not grow up in the cofC, but my children are. They are learning a lot of facts about the Bible in their Sunday school classes, which is great. But are they also learning about God’s love & grace? Unfortunately, I’m not sure this is emphasized so much. I realize though that, ultimately, my husband and I are responsible for mentoring their young faith. Joe, I appreciate all your comments!
Hey Chris:
I enjoy these conversations and intend no ill will I believe we are all on the same team even when we disagree. In fact a think that through respectful disagreement we come to a better and deeper understanding of God. I too believe the word of God is inspired. When a claim is made to truth either in the Bible or any other method such as a commercial I believe that natural human intuition is to validate that through inductive, circular, linear reasoning. So through inductive reasoning one would have to conclude that God directed the men on the councils of Nicea to include to throw out books considered canonical based upon divine inspiration. If not then it is pretty difficult to suggest that the NT canon is God inspired. Just food for thought. If we discovered through archaeology, the lost third and fourth letters of Paul to the church in Corinth, who would be the authority now to decide whether they would be added to the NT canon? I can recommend some books that I read on my quest to learn all this stuff if you are interested. My experience is that books published by cofC folks on the history of the Bible and related subjects leave out and marginalize important details and bend other facts to support previously held doctrines or conclusions. “Reading the New Testament” by Dr. Pheme Perkins who was one of the main translators of the 1994 NSRV Bible New Oxford Annotated version is one of the best books on this subject.
Peace to you and your husband
I think Ben goes far beyond what we are talking about right now and we might need to stretch our minds to think about recieving the Holy Spirit or annointings, and gifts by the laying on of hands. Are we ready to think outside the box as far as the Holy Spirit is concerned. “Conversion.”
Joe,
I’m a little late to the dialog here but wanted you to know I was one of those fortunate enough to have set at your grandfather’s feet at Sunset. All of us loved him and had a profound respect for him…you have quite a legacy there. Though I don’t fully agree with some of what you have said, it seems to me that you are doing an import work with your research and I would enjoy getting a copy of your results and conclusions if that’s possible. An honest assessment of who we are and what’s happening among us can only be helpful as we struggle to advance the kingdom. rcutsinger@comcast.net
Ron Cutsinger (class of 78)
Joe is exactly right about the Baptist church going through the same types of conversations at the moment. A few years ago, I gave a copy of Wineskins to a friend of mine–a seasoned Baptist minister–and he called me that afternoon to tell me that he had read it cover to cover. “Our two traditions are going through the exact same struggles from the articles I’ve read here,” he said. This particular issue of Wineskins addressed some of our recent tensions mentioned here.
Ron:
Sent you and e-mail look forward to speaking with you.
Mike, shame on you for failing to supervise and moderate your blog appropriately! A man in your position can’t just drop an ambiguous idea about a topic as fundamental as baptism, and then go off and let the topic be drug in all directions. You’ve got responsibility.
Joe, I was born at night, but not last night. You expect me to believe that a thirty-one-year-old ‘highly successful engineer’ has time to visit 1000 congregations in six years (that’s three-a-week every week), has personally visited with the ‘leaders’ of 7800 of the 9800 congregations, and has spoken with 15,000 church members? Not likely. Go push your agenda elsewhere.
Kirk:
First of all I have no agenda. My mistake, I have been doing this research for over 10 years. Again my typographical mistake 10 instead of 6 for those who are more concerned with specifics rather than ideas, just like the lady who corrected my spelling in an earlier comment. I travel extensively as a consultant and full time employee so whenever I am in a new town I try to visit the area cofC’s. You can also call them on the phone you know there is a phone directory in Mac Lynn’s’ book the churches of Christ in the USA 2006 edition. I have done phone interviews and personal interviews with members as logistics allowed. Remember I have been traveling the USA with my Dad (the cofC fund raiser) visiting congregations since I can remember.
Why would you take issue with Mike’s so called ambiguous idea? Obviously many of us long time members of the cofC have had similar ideas, so it is not just Mike. Does Mike have a responsibility to control everyone else’s thinking? One of the things that I love about the cofC was the teaching that we can think for ourselves “no one is between you and God”, the “priest hood of all believers”, “read the Bible for yourself”. Now it seems that this teaching is back firing on us. Now whenever someone thinks for themselves and comes to different conclusions than are the norm; they are spoken to or dealt with the way that you have with myself and Mike in your comment. Do you know that I do not suggest that we do away with believer’s baptism? I suggest that we put less pressure on children to be baptized and focus more efforts at creating real authentic faith in non-pressure, open inquisitive environments answering the honest doubt at the bottom of their hearts. I have long since had issue with the age of accountability idea in regards to baptism for many reasons. I believe that we should focus more efforts in engaging the current post modern spiritual seeker in faith conversations that focus on helping answer their questions of faith and honest doubt not our questions or trying to lead them through some five steps of salvation. If this is an agenda then maybe it is wrong to think for one self and do research and understand and make suggestions. Do you know this one of the main reasons that people especially those 18-30 have left the cofC for other Christian churches in the last 10 years; anytime they thought for themselves and came up with different answers than had traditionally been accepted and practiced they were told that was wrong and heaven forbid what you told me “Go somewhere else”. Dan on this same post “Troubled Waters” told us all “Those that want to update the cofC to save the trouble and go to the Baptist church.” Well if we wanted to be at the Baptist church don’t think that is where we would be? But we are not, we are here so get used to people thinking for themselves it is only going to be increase. So be careful who you and Dan and anyone else tell to go to the Baptist church, or somewhere else you may just get your wish and then you all will only be with people who think just like each other. Is that what you want? I would think that the beauty of blogs like this is to share ideas and experiences, and make suggestions. I would respectfully ask; please let this continue.
I have not read all the comments but I will offer some observations. It appears that Ben has been reading his Bible!
How did anyone get the idea that we make disciples by baptising? Did Jesus not say “make disciples” baptising them?
It was Peter who spoke those words recorded by Dr Luke in Acts 2:38. What is the logic of making baptism more important than “repent”? I doubt that many honest people will deny that we have given more weight to baptism than is just.
Luke continued to quote Peter who when he defended his ministry to the Gentiles to the brothers at Judea he said “If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us WHEN WE BELIEVED on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?” (Acts 11:17, caps my emphasis). Peter’s statement here is largely ignored my all the coC teachers and preachers I have listened to. Why? Because Peter confirms here what the rest of the Bible clearly teaches, salvation is by faith in Christ alone and solely upon His merit.
If we are not careful we will repeat the error of Catholics who put church tradition on the same level of authority as Holy Writ, God forbid.
Only Christ deserves our whole trust, our complete surrender, and humble devotion. Man says “do”, God says “done”.
His peace,
Royce
Mr Baggett -
Please contact this church for your research: http://www.thecrossingschurch.com/
That’s a plant out of the Greater Alton Church of Christ in Missouri, and their views are becoming more and more influential. They emphasize making disciples, and baptism is simply a part of that - not an end in itself.
Its also interesting that they’re baptizing more people than probably any other church in Missouri, and not only that - they’re retaining them.
Check it out.