Troubled Waters
As I’ve mentioned before, I’m a big fan of the scholarship and writing of Ben Witherington. Though his new book Troubled Waters: Rethinking the Theology of Baptism
“Unfortunately, baptism is one of those contentious issues that pushes us so that we cannot and do not allow the silences in the New Testament text to rest in peace. We fill in the gaps with our own theologies and urgencies, which has led to turning baptism into something it is not: a Christian infant dedication ritual, or a Christian bar mitzvah or confirmation ritual. This result is understandable, because the church today is mainly a nurture organization which has a missionary committee or two. If it were rather a missionary movement that also did nurture, I suspect we would read Acts and the other New Testament evidence quite differently, for what we see in the New Testament reflects the missionary situation, not a settled system of church and sacraments. Most of all, if the New Testament teaches us anything on this subject, it is that we should be prepared for surprises and divine irregularities, and we should accept that Acts tells us that sometimes water baptism comes before, sometimes with, and sometimes after the Spirit has baptized a person into Christ. God can do it how God wants to do it when it comes to salvation. We are playing catch-up ball. And this memo just in: We humans cannot control the liberating grace of God through the sacraments. We are not in charge of such things. We need to stop thinking we are.”
Joe,
I think you just made the point I was trying to make. Maybe 20 years ago or so, one could say that this “baptism is the end goal” kind of teaching plagued our churches. We are suffering right now as a result because so many who were baptized then (and before) were not discipled. My point is that alot of this has changed. You point out that many of your Grandfather’s contemporaries have changed.
To me it seems that memory is still reality for many in churches of Christ. Many of us are still very familiar with these pieces of our heritage and although there are still reminders, they are not the majority and maybe only a matter of time before those notions vanish from our collective beliefs.
I just don’t feel like it continues to be necessary to criticize the church in this area without giving some credit for the growth that has occurred if nothing else than an encouragement to those out there who have spurred this growth on.
Kyle:
I agree with you Kyle I think our exchanges were just a difference in verbage. I am thankful for the changes and growth that has taken place in some people and some congregations. It is difficult to say what the exception is and what the norm is. The majority of the congregations in the USA that would be 51% ( in my research it would suggest about 79% of the congregations) or more still would be categorized as you and I have similarly described being a part of that “baptism is the end goal” teaching along with no-instruments etc. Though the further you go west, outside the Bible belt, or in major metro areas such as DFW, Atlanta and others; the more prevalent these congregations are that have re-thought much the traditional teaching and practice. This past year in the lectureships at FHU, FU, Heritage, Harding, and a whole bunch of Preaching Schools the main theme or significant sub themes were on the old typical cofC doctrine that we both agree is and was a part of out heritage. To my knowledge only David Lipscomb, LCU, ACU and Pepperdine had lectureships were these items of specific doctrines were not the major addresses. Harding had classes everyday of their lecture against instrumental music in worship. This is an example.
Please understand I am not criticizing people or the brotherhood in general, what I am challenging is the ideas, the teachings, and practices that through my research though it may be different than your experience and observation (and I believe you when you tell your experience) tells me this theology and practice is still vigorously taught and defended not only in the majority of the cofC churches but in it’s institutions as well.
When Jesus himself, says do it. I think it must be important for us to do. You look at the red letters of Jesus and that is what Jesus says in Matthew 28:18-20, “Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in haven and on earth has been geven to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey eveything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always to the very end of the age.” The red letters. In Mark 16:15-ff, “He siad to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to al creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” Jesus said it. It is the red letters of the Son of God. Are we going to follow the red letters? Or put our faith in the red letters instead of the first century Church? It is in Jesus that we believe and become disciples. Emerging forward as Christians we must put our faith in Christ words…His promises…His leading…not in a “century of a weak church, sinners, leadership, etc.” We must focus on the perfection of our faith. Heb 12:2. God help us focus on the red letters.
To all those who want to update the teachings of the CofC, why not just join the Baptist church and save yourself the trouble?
I wish I could write in red letters on this blog.
“The number one reason they state for their baptism is not a deep authentic faith in Christ but rather a fear of Hell.”
C’mon. If you read the bible literally, as most church kids are taught to do, then the biblical vision of hell is terrifying–especially in the “red letter” sections.
As it may surprise you, Joe, I grew up in what may be called a “grace-oriented” church with a relatively robust theology of baptism. Our church was critized by many for being “liberal.” And yet, as a kid I read the bible, studied baptism in Romans 6, and was still baptized for fear of hell and (mainly) social pressure. What kid wouldn’t? Just give her or him a Bible, the scariest book ever published.
So, I suggest that that kids are baptized (as are adults) with limited understanding no matter what kind of church they grow up in.
Dan:
Did you know that the Baptists are going through the same thing? The SBC recently published a research project by Lifeway entitled “Baptists consider what it means to be Baptist”. The report details how many Baptist churches are changing and re-thinking many of their “sacred cows”. One significant thing that many Baptists are realizing is that their sacrament of salvation, praying the “sinners prayer” was not really centered around faith and discipleship either, so they are asking the questions many of us are about baptism. One case and point was at one church when 1700 response cards were turned in stating that they had said the sinners prayer and been saved. But after a year a follow up showed less than 10% were still attending a local church somewhere. They also are re-thinking their leadership structure as an increasing number of Baptist churches are starting elderships that closely resemble those of the cofC. They too are challenging their traditional understanding of the role women fulfill in the church. We actually attended a Baptist church for a while because there was no cofC or Christian church where we lived. The SBC is also reconsidering Baptism but through the eyes of faith and discipleship, because they have had a pretty ineffective sacrament of the “sinner’s prayer” for a while at their own realization. Kind of ironic huh? Just my opinion. I think that re-thinking, re-evaluating, challenging, testing, examining the fruits and results of teachings and practices within any organization is very healthy. When we become un-questionable, above introspection, above systematic analysis then it is not truth or God we seek but rather the emotional security of being right. If we are bothered when we or some else challenges our thinking that is the first sign that we are either wrong and don’t want to admit it, or scared to look at our thinking with brutal honesty and consistency.
I would suggest that we be open to challenge, strong evidence and thinking to the contrary of what has always been taught and practiced. All the people that you may be referring to as “wanting to update the teachings of the church of Christ” are simply following their conclusions and what they sincerely feel that God wants them to do.
Joe,
It is my understanding that in the Baptist Church they baptize as an outward sign they they have been saved through the “sinners prayer” or whatever. It seems to me that this is the direction you want to go.
I agree that one should have an authentic faith and not just “get wet.” Who is to be the judge of the quality of faith before baptism?
Hey Jon:
I am right there with you I too was in the grace oriented congregation from 14-18 after I was baptized the first time at 12 in a super hard-line church in Medina TX. I was sacred to death of going to Hell plus all my friends had already done it. I don’t think it makes a difference either (which church), it is in the way parents and churches present God, Faith and the Bible to our children. We are not making the same mistake with our two kids! We use the children’s Bible to present God as a good being who gives us hope and plans for a future and not to harm us that is concerned with social injustice and the health of our family. At the Bible camp during the summer I worked as a counselor and kids starting getting baptized every night. I was talking to one of my campers 10 years old and he said he wanted to be baptized after talking a while it was apparent the same thing was repeating so I told him we should wait and speak it over wit his parents. When I talked with his parents they became angry when I suggested that he told me that he was scared of going to hell and all his friends were doing it. Then I found out that his Dad was on the slate to be an elder and now we know the rest of the story. This young boy grew up and went to college and now no longer has a significant relationship with the Lord but his Dad is still an elder at the church. So maybe the purpose of baptism at a young age is so that your Dad can be an elder? I was re-immersed at 17 only after learning where the Bible actually came from which no one would tell me but had to find out myself, and basically being a questioning agnostic for two years.
Dan:
I believe that no one is the judge, each person will give an account for themselves and no one else. Why would we want to start adopting the sinner’s prayer? We already have an ineffective sacrament; baptism. That is not what I would suggest. I believe that improvements and changes to the ways we point and lead our children and the lost/unchurched to faith leading up to discipleship and baptism, how we present God and his nature (less of the angry God waiting to punish the smallest doctrinal error or mistake, more of the God of hope, overcoming, grace, mercy etc.), the Bible where it really comes from not the same old answer (some of which is un true), faith in God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit and not in having all the right doctrines and perfect forms of church. In short I believe this is the direction that churches should consider.
Joe,
Do you reveal the aspect of a jealous and wrathful God to your children?
What is the connection in how we got our Bible and the way we present God, Christ and the Holy Spirit? I think we all/most believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, so aside from academic knowledge, what difference does it make?
All I have to add is this…
Hate the misspelled word, not the misled speller.
When I was 10 I went to a church camp in “Po-dunk” Texas where we had to wear long blue jeans in the 100+ degree heat and there were no air conditioners. There was a preacher from San Antonio who preached about hell and baptism every night. he ended with a 20 verse song/invitation that I once ortwice was tempted to answer just to get the song/prayer/eternal service over. But I didn’t. Instead, I lay awake in my bunk every night trying not to go to sleep so that God would not come like a thief in the night and send me to hell for not being baptized. Almost everyone else in my cabin was baptized that week. I waited until I got home to talk to my parents. I was baptized a few weeks later..and not out of fear. I hope they don’t have camps in Po-dunk Texas that scare little girls into taking the plunge to avoid an eternal firey furnace…but it did happen back in the day. Many of my friends had similar experiences. Joe B may be off on somethings, but not everything.
Chris:
May I ask you why you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God? Most people I ask this question of usually have a pretty lame answer; “Because it says so”, or something like that. I am not suggesting that you would. May I presume that most of your faith and relationship with is God and the church is based upon how you read the Bible which you consider to be true? I was preaching in a small town in south MS and read from the NRSV and NIV. After we got done, an elderly lady approached me and asked me why I did not use the KJV or NKJV? I told here that I preferred the others because they were translated in the colloquial English vernacular of the standard English now spoken in the USA. She responded and I quote “well if the KJV was good enough for Peter than it is good enough for me!” At first I thought she was kidding, but she was serious. This is a perfect example of not knowing why we believe what we believe at its worst. This also leads to fear and ignorance that is poison to faith. You know I am not a person who can just believe something without seriously examining the evidence; most of the lost and unchurched in the USA can’t either.
When I was growing up in the cofC, I asked several people to tell me why we believed the Bible was the inspired word of God. The typical answers were only about half the actual information and sometimes inaccurate. Like one answer I would get was how it was a first century document (only a few copies of some NT books circulated before100 AD), along with others that left out the important details. At ACU I got some more answers and then continued to study on my own until I got satisfactory answers. I learned that the Bible was canonized by the Nicene councils over a period of time in the fourth century and that it went through 60 canons and Revelation was actually thrown out for a while but finally made that last canon because the other epistles of John were already in the canon. Do you believe that the Nicene councils were directed by the Holy Spirit in their decision of what books to add or throw out when approving the canons? I also learned that we have evidence that at least two more letters Paul had written to the church in Corinth are not in the NT canon. I also learned that there was strong evidence that suggests that Paul was not the author of some the epistles that claim his authorship. I could go on but I won’t.
My point is this; these are the questions of honest doubt that the lost and un-churched in the UAS are asking in their quest for spiritual meaning and faith especially in the younger more educated professional groups!
yle:
To answer your question we read and study the Bible together and make no excuses and pull no punches. We discuss the stories and let our kids ask all the questions they want without putting answers in the mind. Sometimes my wife and I will tell our children what meaning certain Bible stories have for us personally or what it means for the broader community of faith. Here are some of our guidelines we use for studying the Bible with our children.
1. Always use contextual and back ground (exegetical) perspective
2. Do not try to use the Bible to support previously held ideas or conclusions
3. Ask lots of questions, then ask some more
4. Make every effort to read with no presuppositions
5. Understand that most importantly God is trying to reveal himself to man.
6. We don’t have to have a perfect answer for everything to have the truth and God filled meaning.
7. Take absolutely nothing out of context.
8. Ignore scripture divisions of BCV as they were not a part of the original written copies.
9. Understand that we are human and will always be improving the understanding of the Bible by the questions we ask and reasoning we use.
Sometimes the nature of God is hard to deal with, he no longer strikes people dead because they touched the Ark or anything like that, but we believe we live by a new covenant where we will eventually give an account for our faith and life here on earth. We actually just had a Bible story of Daniel that illustrates the jealous nature of God. But we don’t use God’s nature out of context.
So Joe, if you do not believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, on what basis are people “lost” as you indicate in your last paragraph?
Chris:
Why would you conclude that I do not believe the Bible was the inspired word of God? I do! I just could not believe it without examining the evidence and finding out where and how it really came to be as the English translation I read now. This is the same quest that many of the younger generation in the church and the unchurched also are asking in their personal quest for faith. They can’t believe that it is the inspired word of God just because Timothy says so in his epistle. We have to investigate and find out for ourselves before we just believe! You asked “think we all/most believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, so aside from academic knowledge, what difference does it make?” This what difference it makes: faith without an attempt to answer the honest doubt in the depths one’s soul is not faith but rather empty religion. Faith without understanding why we believe what we believe is the pathway to fear and ignorance and is based more social religion than reliable evidence and thinking.
I am very curious about my two questions to you. I believe I have answered yours.
May I ask you why you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God?
Do you believe that the Nicene councils were directed by the Holy Spirit in their decision of what books to add or throw out when approving the canons? If so, why?
SG:
I can probably tell you which camp it was. Bandina, Iron Springs, Brownwood, Hensel (just outside of Austin) or Koinonia on Lake Texoma. Am I getting close maybe camp Deer Run? My parents actually were the directors at camp Deer Run and I worked as a counselor at all the others. Such a small world?
Joe, I believe the Bible is the word of God based on historical evidence in addition to the fact that it claims to be inspired
I have just ordered a DVD course from “The Teaching Company.” It’s called “History of the Bible–The Making of the New Testament Canon.”
After this course, perhaps I can answer your second question.
Incidentally, I LOVE this company. My husband and I have taken 4 courses from them and enjoyed every one.
I did not grow up in the cofC, but my children are. They are learning a lot of facts about the Bible in their Sunday school classes, which is great. But are they also learning about God’s love & grace? Unfortunately, I’m not sure this is emphasized so much. I realize though that, ultimately, my husband and I are responsible for mentoring their young faith. Joe, I appreciate all your comments!
Hey Chris:
I enjoy these conversations and intend no ill will I believe we are all on the same team even when we disagree. In fact a think that through respectful disagreement we come to a better and deeper understanding of God. I too believe the word of God is inspired. When a claim is made to truth either in the Bible or any other method such as a commercial I believe that natural human intuition is to validate that through inductive, circular, linear reasoning. So through inductive reasoning one would have to conclude that God directed the men on the councils of Nicea to include to throw out books considered canonical based upon divine inspiration. If not then it is pretty difficult to suggest that the NT canon is God inspired. Just food for thought. If we discovered through archaeology, the lost third and fourth letters of Paul to the church in Corinth, who would be the authority now to decide whether they would be added to the NT canon? I can recommend some books that I read on my quest to learn all this stuff if you are interested. My experience is that books published by cofC folks on the history of the Bible and related subjects leave out and marginalize important details and bend other facts to support previously held doctrines or conclusions. “Reading the New Testament” by Dr. Pheme Perkins who was one of the main translators of the 1994 NSRV Bible New Oxford Annotated version is one of the best books on this subject.
Peace to you and your husband
I think Ben goes far beyond what we are talking about right now and we might need to stretch our minds to think about recieving the Holy Spirit or annointings, and gifts by the laying on of hands. Are we ready to think outside the box as far as the Holy Spirit is concerned. “Conversion.”
Joe,
I’m a little late to the dialog here but wanted you to know I was one of those fortunate enough to have set at your grandfather’s feet at Sunset. All of us loved him and had a profound respect for him…you have quite a legacy there. Though I don’t fully agree with some of what you have said, it seems to me that you are doing an import work with your research and I would enjoy getting a copy of your results and conclusions if that’s possible. An honest assessment of who we are and what’s happening among us can only be helpful as we struggle to advance the kingdom. rcutsinger@comcast.net
Ron Cutsinger (class of 78)
Joe is exactly right about the Baptist church going through the same types of conversations at the moment. A few years ago, I gave a copy of Wineskins to a friend of mine–a seasoned Baptist minister–and he called me that afternoon to tell me that he had read it cover to cover. “Our two traditions are going through the exact same struggles from the articles I’ve read here,” he said. This particular issue of Wineskins addressed some of our recent tensions mentioned here.
Ron:
Sent you and e-mail look forward to speaking with you.
Mike, shame on you for failing to supervise and moderate your blog appropriately! A man in your position can’t just drop an ambiguous idea about a topic as fundamental as baptism, and then go off and let the topic be drug in all directions. You’ve got responsibility.
Joe, I was born at night, but not last night. You expect me to believe that a thirty-one-year-old ‘highly successful engineer’ has time to visit 1000 congregations in six years (that’s three-a-week every week), has personally visited with the ‘leaders’ of 7800 of the 9800 congregations, and has spoken with 15,000 church members? Not likely. Go push your agenda elsewhere.
Kirk:
First of all I have no agenda. My mistake, I have been doing this research for over 10 years. Again my typographical mistake 10 instead of 6 for those who are more concerned with specifics rather than ideas, just like the lady who corrected my spelling in an earlier comment. I travel extensively as a consultant and full time employee so whenever I am in a new town I try to visit the area cofC’s. You can also call them on the phone you know there is a phone directory in Mac Lynn’s’ book the churches of Christ in the USA 2006 edition. I have done phone interviews and personal interviews with members as logistics allowed. Remember I have been traveling the USA with my Dad (the cofC fund raiser) visiting congregations since I can remember.
Why would you take issue with Mike’s so called ambiguous idea? Obviously many of us long time members of the cofC have had similar ideas, so it is not just Mike. Does Mike have a responsibility to control everyone else’s thinking? One of the things that I love about the cofC was the teaching that we can think for ourselves “no one is between you and God”, the “priest hood of all believers”, “read the Bible for yourself”. Now it seems that this teaching is back firing on us. Now whenever someone thinks for themselves and comes to different conclusions than are the norm; they are spoken to or dealt with the way that you have with myself and Mike in your comment. Do you know that I do not suggest that we do away with believer’s baptism? I suggest that we put less pressure on children to be baptized and focus more efforts at creating real authentic faith in non-pressure, open inquisitive environments answering the honest doubt at the bottom of their hearts. I have long since had issue with the age of accountability idea in regards to baptism for many reasons. I believe that we should focus more efforts in engaging the current post modern spiritual seeker in faith conversations that focus on helping answer their questions of faith and honest doubt not our questions or trying to lead them through some five steps of salvation. If this is an agenda then maybe it is wrong to think for one self and do research and understand and make suggestions. Do you know this one of the main reasons that people especially those 18-30 have left the cofC for other Christian churches in the last 10 years; anytime they thought for themselves and came up with different answers than had traditionally been accepted and practiced they were told that was wrong and heaven forbid what you told me “Go somewhere else”. Dan on this same post “Troubled Waters” told us all “Those that want to update the cofC to save the trouble and go to the Baptist church.” Well if we wanted to be at the Baptist church don’t think that is where we would be? But we are not, we are here so get used to people thinking for themselves it is only going to be increase. So be careful who you and Dan and anyone else tell to go to the Baptist church, or somewhere else you may just get your wish and then you all will only be with people who think just like each other. Is that what you want? I would think that the beauty of blogs like this is to share ideas and experiences, and make suggestions. I would respectfully ask; please let this continue.
I have not read all the comments but I will offer some observations. It appears that Ben has been reading his Bible!
How did anyone get the idea that we make disciples by baptising? Did Jesus not say “make disciples” baptising them?
It was Peter who spoke those words recorded by Dr Luke in Acts 2:38. What is the logic of making baptism more important than “repent”? I doubt that many honest people will deny that we have given more weight to baptism than is just.
Luke continued to quote Peter who when he defended his ministry to the Gentiles to the brothers at Judea he said “If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us WHEN WE BELIEVED on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?” (Acts 11:17, caps my emphasis). Peter’s statement here is largely ignored my all the coC teachers and preachers I have listened to. Why? Because Peter confirms here what the rest of the Bible clearly teaches, salvation is by faith in Christ alone and solely upon His merit.
If we are not careful we will repeat the error of Catholics who put church tradition on the same level of authority as Holy Writ, God forbid.
Only Christ deserves our whole trust, our complete surrender, and humble devotion. Man says “do”, God says “done”.
His peace,
Royce
Mr Baggett –
Please contact this church for your research: http://www.thecrossingschurch.com/
That’s a plant out of the Greater Alton Church of Christ in Missouri, and their views are becoming more and more influential. They emphasize making disciples, and baptism is simply a part of that – not an end in itself.
Its also interesting that they’re baptizing more people than probably any other church in Missouri, and not only that – they’re retaining them.
Check it out.