Yesterday I preached on the story of Joshua and the walls of Jericho. Afterward, our dear friends Bill and Sherry Rankin led our time of communion. Here are the words Sherry wrote. I thought you’d enjoy them:
Robert Frost said: “Something there is that doesn’t love a wall.” He didn’t say what that something was, but whatever it was, it wasn’t human, because we humans love walls. There are some amazing walls in this world, most of them built to keep people out.
The longest man-made structure on earth is a wall: the Great Wall of China, begun in the 5th century before Christ to keep out the Mongol hordes. Then there’s the wall the Emperor Hadrian built in the 2nd century after Christ across Northern England, to keep the out the Scottish hordes. And there’s Offa’s dyke, built in the 8th century along the boundary of Mercia and Wales to keep out the Welsh hordes. And then there’s the 7-foot privacy fence we put up in our back yard this summer, to keep out the neighborhood hordes. And if I asked for a show of hands here today, I bet most of you would have to admit you have a fence in your yard, whether you need it or not. We just like our walls. We like our space. We like to control our own territory.
Jericho was a city famous for its walls. Every one of us learned the song as kids: “Joshua fought the battle of Jericho, and the walls came tumbling down.” Now that I’m older, I don’t have the same easy view I did as a child of that story. I don’t know that I understand all of the complexities of the situation; I don’t know that I can explain the violence of what happened there. But something there was that didn’t love that wall around Jericho. God wanted to show his people entering that promised land that walls might keep out men, they might keep out an army—and the people living inside might feel safe, self-sufficient, in charge of their own fates. But walls crumble before the will of God, and the wall around Jericho didn’t stand a chance before him. Joshua’s army didn’t even have to touch the walls. They just obeyed God, marched around the city, blew their horns, and the walls came down.
God has this thing about knocking down walls. Walls bother him, for some reason. So hundreds of years after Joshua marched around the walls of Jericho, another Joshua, God himself in human flesh, visited Jericho and knocked down another kind of wall. Zaccheus, that wee little man from another childhood song, lived in Jericho, and he had built a great big wall in his life. Like most walls, it was about keeping some things out and some things in, about reassuring himself of his own power and control. His wall wasn’t made of brick and mortar, though. Zaccheus had walled up his heart. He had convinced himself that things were more important than people and that being rich was more valuable than being righteous. But maybe because he felt safe inside his wall or maybe because his wall was starting to crumble, he climbed up in that tree to see Jesus—Joshua, in Hebrew—when the Teacher came to town. Jesus saw the man hiding safe and self-satisfied behind his wall, and he knocked the wall right down. Zaccheus’ barriers collapsed: all the barriers he’d built between himself and others, and between himself and God. He invited Jesus inside his house, but more importantly, he let him inside his life. He went from being a guy who keeps people out to a guy who lets people in.
That’s what God does. Walls bother him. And they’re not part of his original plan: there were no walls in Eden—just God walking with his people who were caring for and cultivating his creation, plants, animals, the world itself. If you think about it, the first consequence of the fall was the building of a wall: they realized their nakedness, their vulnerability, and they sought to hide it, to separate themselves from God. The story of much of the rest of human history is a story of walls. But one moment changed all that—a moment whose season we’re preparing to celebrate. It was a moment of the tearing down of all walls, a moment when the barrier between spirit and flesh, Jew and Gentile, male and female, God and human—a moment when all of these walls collapsed before God. Paul admits as much when he says to the Ephesians, “For Christ himself is our peace, who has made us one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility.”
We build walls, but God destroys them. We’re sitting here now, about to take communion, but most of us are still sitting behind walls. The word “communion” means to commune, to share, to communicate. You can’t truly do that from behind a wall. As we eat this bread and drink this wine, let’s remember the story of walls, let’s let Jesus inside, and let each other inside. Something there is that doesn’t love a wall. That “something” is God.
Wow! Thanks for sharing. Have a great day.
Great food for thought on this Monday morning. Breaking down walls at 52 is hard…..
Hate the children Joshua killed as well. The destruction of the wall was more important to than the toddlers playings inside it. What a great wall felling God who couldn’t figure something else out. It was man who destroyed those people (wall) not God.
What an incredible way to start a Monday morning!
Remember what “Red” (Morgan Freeman) said about walls in “Shawshank Redemption”? A classic!
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Thanks! (And wow.)
This was a very powerful and thoughtful talk. Thank you for sharing.
http://www.matthewsblog.waynesborochurchofchrist.org
Prophetic and true. I will eat these words today.
Thank you for sharing this. I’ve built many walls out of fear that I will lose my way of life if others - certain people or even Jesus Christ - can get in. Sherry’s description of a God who hates walls caused me to reflect on some statements Presidential candidates are saying about securing our nation’s border. It’s a complex issue I know. But how do you think “our God who hates walls” would respond to the massive walls (literal and otherwise) against illegal immigrants that former preacher Mike Huckabee wants to construct as his “top priority” if elected President? Is he pleased with a top priority agenda to build walls and instill yet more fear of “them”?
“God has this thing about knocking down walls.”
Maybe so, maybe not so. What about the ultimate wall, the one between the chosen/saved and the lost? Heaven is for the “in crowd” while hell is for all others. Until Christians accept a doctrine of universal salvation for all no matter what, then there will always be a wall, an us vs. them.
Mike - I am so glad you shared this! I loved it yesterday when Sherry was sharing it and I love it today. As a person who lived behind walls for so many years and who finally allowed God to tear them down I really do get it. At the WTGC I taught a class on forgiveness to the high school girls and shared with them the fact that unforgiveness builds walls and forgiveness tears them down. I’ve found this to be true in my own life. Today I try to practice forgiveness on a constant basis. It has made a huge difference in my life.
Martin,
That ultimate wall has already been removed. It was a wall that no person could do anything about, so God removed it by His grace, in sending Jesus Christ. The wall is gone regardless of what doctrine is proclaimed, or by whom.
No one on this blog has stated any concern for the people inside of the wall. Very Christian indeed.
Leland,
I’m concerned. Email me at jquile@gmail.com if you are concerned and we can chat. I’m looking forward to it.
Joel
Joel I will once I get time. Thanks man.
I think that Mrs. Rankin got it exactly backwards with regard to the garden of Eden. It is because a wall was breached (that God put in place) that caused the fall of man. Not the other way around.
My suspicion tells me that all of this talk about walls, by Mrs. Rankin, was said in order to drive home the point that there should be no distinction between the roles of men and women in the church. That is not what Gal.3:28 says.
My complaint is that when a church pursues an agenda, based on such a divisive issue, then unity is the ultimate casualty.
Mrs? Not Sister?
Mike thanks for sharing this communion talk.
It is very powerful and truthful.
I pray that God will tear down every wall that man and woman puts up in their lives.
I prayer that God will tear down especailly the wall that seperatates the Church. God may we be ONE as you are ONE.
May we answer the prayer of Jesus in John 17. May we be ONE.
May we be brought to complete unity. Amen!
Does this include the proposed wall on our southern border? I hope it does. . .we don’t need such a wall against our Mexican neighbors.
Larry,
I agree and I also think we should not destroy everything behind it. Probably like we are doing.
I appreciate Sherry giving me permission to publish this beautiful piece. I thought it would bless everyone. I should remember that there is NOTHING I could put here that would please everyone.
There are too many people in the church today who have as their industry the building, maintenance, and defense of walls. Giving up this vocation is just as difficult for them as anybody else who has to change their profession.
I certainly have never read the story of Joshua at Jericho and taken it that away. I agree with the sentiment in general, but I just don’t think that story is about knocking down walls. I believe it’s more about obeying God and witnessing the power he can use on our behalf when we let him lead us. But I certainly do agree that we wall ourselves in.
I can’t remember what book it was, but I read an opinion once that talked about how central air conditioning and garage door openers have really hurt community life in American neighborhoods. I agree with that.
I have lived in 6 or 7 different parts of the country and noticed that only in Texas did the vast majority of homes have a fence around them. That being said, none of those places had friendlier neighbors than I’ve had in Texas. To me that tends to indicate, it’s not so much the walls as much as how we use them.
I remember as a child feeling that I had free reign to run through the backyards of my neighbors (anyone within about 4 blocks in any direction of my house). Each time I crawled over a fence I entered a new and different world that revealed alot to me about it’s inhabitants. I loved those fences.
Great post. I appreciate you sharing!
Thanks for posting this, Mike. It will allow me to appreciate even more what Sherry shared with us yesterday. Her insight shows us yet again that there are so many facets to any given scripture or story in God’s word, no one has all the insights. We learn and learn and keep learning as the Holy Spirit gives us insight. Sherry did a great job, imho. Some of the responses here show there are walls that God might well wish to see torn down.
I often wonder if God giggles at our feeble attempts to put words in God’s mouth, to tell Him what He should have or should not have done. I truly hope He has a sense of humor or we’re in big trouble.
All I hear from some of the comments… Helen Lovejoy: “Won’t somebody PLEASE think of the children!?!?”
Thanks for sharing this, Mike! It’s a unique way to think of that story.
Leland, thanks for bringing up the ugliness of this story. I was at Highland yesterday and couldn’t get past the people killed inside the walls of Jericho. I don’t understand it and it is more than upsetting to me. I do get why you question that…because I do also.
But…with all that aside…I loved what Sherry said about walls. I love all the connections that can be made from it and I do believe that God hates walls….walls too tall to let others in, walls too thick to hear through, walls to keep only those like us close by, and those who are different out. Sherry’s delivery of those words was gentle and loving.
andymac,
I know your trying to defend Mike and his blog piece especially since he wrote he can’t post NOTHING which will all will agree but what the hell is your point?
Mike,
This piece has blessed everyone. Unfortunately, some are too blind to see it.
Just as some people see a wall that no longer exists. Yes, there is a Heaven and a Hell. There is eternal salvation and eternal damnation. That is not a wall. That is a reality. Anyone and everyone is welcome to walk into the way of eternal salvation; there is no wall of separation.
I pray that unity is closer than we have ever thought. God let teear down the walls that devide us on Sunday’s. Let us tear down the walls of creeds, of doctrines, of other things walls opinions that may fall in order for unity to occur and so that your church may be ONE as you are ONE. John 17. Amen & Amen.
Paul,
“Unfortunately, some are too blind to see it.” Who? because if it’s me answer my question about the genocide of Jericho and then I will be blessed. Call me out, I don’t mind. Chicken shit reference me, I do.
So Paul,
There isn’t a wall of ignorance, through no fault of their own, people all around the world will never hear about Jesus. And they are destined to hell according to your theology.
That doesn’t sound like a loving or just God.
But, maybe if we stopped using our ideas of justice and looked at the justice preached in the OT, we might see things differently.
What exactly is your question about the “genocide of Jericho”?
andymac,
All were killed because of their ethnicity. That is genocide. 1994 Rwanda, ring a bell. What if the Tutsi’s built a wall? Would the Hutu destruction be justified to tear it down? That’s what I mean.
Mike,
Thanks so much for sharing! The thing this illustration really makes me think about is evangelism. I know so many people that have been turned away from church because they don’t feel love or acceptance. I don’t know anyone who has been brought to Christ by rules and “walls,” but I know many who have been able to see Him through the openness and love demonstrated by other people. Hopefully, the can also see a freedom God has given us from such boundaries. My prayer for us is that we can let down our defenses, not only to let God work in us, but to allow Him to work through us to change others.
This is misguided, at best. I don’t see anywhere in the sacred scriptures that “God hates walls”. God hates SIN, not walls.
As far as Jericho is concerned, you will kindly notice that God had not taken EITHER side, as far as the PEOPLE were concerned. God had taken the side of RIGHTEOUSNESS, not the side of the Israelites. He wasn’t AGAINST the people of Jericho, but was AGAINST SIN. The commander of the Lord’s army tells us as much prior to the events at Jericho.
If God hated walls so much, then please tell me why he was so insistent on Nehemiah building one… Nehemiah used that wall to great effect to stop the desecration of the Sabbath day, by LOCKING FOLKS OUT. Let’s ask the people of Noah’s time, banging on the THICK WALLS of the ark, probably wanting in once they saw the flood waters rising… No doubt someone will retort that these are OT examples…but wasn’t that “wall God hated” around Jericho back in those times, too?
Or, to switch over to NT times: If God is all for the destruction of walls by His people, then we must ignore the destruction of Jerusalem. Those mighty walls were destroyed because of the magnitude of the sin of the people of Jerusalem, not for some glorious, fuzzy, “everybody’s saved” feeling…
Would you also say that the “great gulf” between Abraham/Lazarus and the rich man is a wall/separation? If that is a wall/separation, and God “hates” walls/separation, then the gospel isn’t true.
As far as the walls that separate us from each other, I am all for the destruction of the unscriptural and pointless ones. What I am not for is this notion that we can’t have any separation at all between any of us…that all of us must share everything with everyone at all times. Again and again, this leads to hurt feelings, misunderstandings, and even worse. Call me whatever you wish, but we have become TOO WARM AND FUZZY FOR OUR OWN GOOD. I’m speaking from a strictly observational viewpoint, because I don’t think scripture specifies exactly how we should all deal with our personal boundaries. There is, apparently, a sense among Christians that anyone who chooses to be more of a private person has something wrong with them. Perhaps there is nothing wrong with those of us who live that way…perhaps we have no life shattering events to gush over every time we meet. Perhaps we choose to not tell everyone our every thought and secret. And, perhaps, THAT IS JUST FINE. FOR US, AND FOR YOU. You know I’m not talking about extremes here, so don’t go down that road. I just reject this notion that people who choose to remain quiet and reserved are sinning by not constantly running their mouths. What does everyone have against someone who just doesn’t see the need for spilling the beans every time you see them? Not to be too coarse, but some of us just wish for a return to a time when everybody minded their own stinking business, to a point.
As far as the violence: God said to Abraham way back in Genesis that the sin of the Amorites had not reached its “full measure”. Apparently by the time of Joshua, it had. End of subject. No questions. Either the Bible tells me so, or it doesn’t. We might as well say that God isn’t loving because anyone suffers today, also. Trying to explain God’s reasoning and plan through our human emotions is just pointless, and you will just stay confused forever.
On a lighter note, since there are so many on this blog who can’t stand the idea of a border wall, YOU MUST ALL BE GREAT ADMIRERS OF REAGAN, RIGHT??? I mean, after all, he did exhort someone to “Tear down this wall!” Oh, wait, I forgot, walls are only evil when they keep people from invading another country, not when they are imprisoning people in a communist state that denies the existence of God…Those walls are ok, right?
Flame on…
I can’t believe you still blog, Mike.
Matt - I’ve accepted that some people don’t get the idea of imagination and metaphor. Everything is a heresy to be dissected. Let them knock themselves out.
Meanwhile, I feel this great freedom: something there is that doesn’t love a wall. Or so says the apostle Paul.
Leland - I have no easy answers for you, my friend. The passages bother me, too. The whole idea of “herem” (Hebrew word for “a devoted thing” to be destroyed completely - Num. 21:2-3; Dt. 7:2; Josh 6:21; 8:26; 10:28; 11:11, etc.) is mind-boggling. It has always thrown me for a loop as a believer. If I was writing a book to upend faith this is where I’d start (as, e.g., Sam Harris has).
I understand the Marcionites well! They couldn’t reconcile the God who is revealed by Jesus Christ (”turn the other cheek” . . . “love your enemy”) with the vicious God of the OT, so they insisted these were two different Gods.
And it wearies me that people have a way of reading Jesus through the OT stories like these — rather than let Jesus be the center of scripture through whom we understand redemption history.
I plead ignorance. At the end of the day, I am a follower of Jesus who puts my trust in him and his ways — including his confidence in the story of Israel.
These stories are not the high points of the Old Testament, for sure.
But what if . . . God had been pleading with the people of Jericho to yield to him, to turn from their ways of violence and oppression (as in Sodom)?
What if we read this story like the flood — God’s attempt to create a fresh start? He has chosen a people to held restore the world. He, in his sovereignty, offers them a land that has been promised. And through that beachhead, he intends to bless all people — ever country, every group, every family.
I know. I know. It doesn’t solve everything for me, either.
You ask good questions, amigo.
Thank you Mike for blogging and for being graceful.
Mike, that last comment of yours was a great example of breaking down walls. “A gentle answer turns away wrath.” Thanks for being a great spiritual role model to me through the years.
Mike- Your last comment was the perfect example of how to please everyone; “speak the truth in love.” Truth without love is repulsive and love without truth is nausiating. As you can see, I’m still learning myself.
Troy - I think you’re wrong. It wasn’t a good example of how to please everyone. Apparently, it didn’t please you.
Mike- I was making a reference to your last comment, not the rest.
What doesn’t please me is when a point is forced and built on a false premise, with the intention of advancing an agenda that is divisive and damaging to the body of Christ.
Mike - Thanks for your response to Leland. Ignore the sniping of a few others. (Every time I read something by one of the commentors on your or another blog, I just think, “Hey. I don’t have to be married to him. I don’t have to be one of his kids. And he isn’t one of my elders, at least I don’t think.”) What you said to Leland helps me more than you could know. I have a hard time living with passages like this. It helps to know that you do, too. But that you still believe.
AlGuy- Sniping is what you just did to me, not what I’ve done to Mike.
I have yet to hear anyone defend what Mrs. Rankin said (including Mrs. Rankin herself), other than to offer some touchy, feely expression of awestruck admiration for both her and Mike.
How good it must be to be in a congregation that encourages walls to come down. Too often we hear of walls of division; we hear too many beat the drumbeat of labeling, categorizing and demonizing those with whom they disagree. So, I say thank you Mike, and thank you Sherry, and thank you Highland. You are a city on a hill for many of us who are longing to see a church that is patterned after Jesus.
Kathy, thanks for that perspective. After going to Highland for the last 11 years, I’ve become so spoiled to being in an atmosphere of loving acceptance that I’ve forgotten what it’s like to worry about what you say being picked apart, although reading the comments on Mike’s blog is reminding me, fast! It is indeed a blessing to attend a church peopled largely with kindly souls who are willing to sift through the grain of other Christians’ feeble verbal offerings, take what is nourishing, and with the breath of kindness blow the chaff away.
So if you don’t agree with the opinion expressed by the kind lady and her preacher, then you don’t have “imagination”, or get the “idea of metaphor”. If Jericho were a metaphor, then I would be with you. You can’t use one example, and not the other. You use Jericho and say you are being imaginative and metaphorical. I use Nehemiah, and I’m unimaginative and a dullard.
Troy is right. You agree with this gibberish and get praised, or you express a reasoned difference of opinion and get made fun of. Just how far up in the air does your nose have to be to act this way? As long as you agree with these folks, you can say anything you want, curse words included, and everyone gushes. Express a different side of the argument, and “it’s on!”.
So is anyone going to tell me why God wanted a wall (and thus, separation) around His city, or does it not fit your warm, fuzzy construct in a way you can explain?
The last comment is very telling: you can only be a “kindly soul” (and, by presumption, a “Christian”) if you agree with these folks. If you disagree with them, you have “feeble verbal offerings”, and your opinion is “chaff” to be “blown away”. If you don’t want disagreement, then don’t have a blog, and especially don’t have a blog with comments…
I’m passionate about this because words mean things and our churches are choking on the chaff. Just like we cannot search the scriptures for only that which we find nourishing and reject the rest, we cannot accept this practice in our pulpits. If Jesus Christ is being preached, there should be no chaff to be blown away.
Sherry,
I certainly didn’t mean to pick apart what you were saying. I don’t quite understand all of the comments here, but I enjoy coming here and reading Mike’s posts. I tend to view things more conservatively than Mike but alot of the things he puts up here challenge me. But, I’m not the kind of guy to just change my mind because I read something. So the blog format gives me a chance to comment on things that challenge me. In a way I’m testing out new ways at looking at things and at the same time testing my old ways. Sometimes I change my mind, sometimes I become more firm, and quite a bit I do neither but walk away with a more open mind waiting for God to grant me more clarity in his way and in his time.
“It is indeed a blessing to attend a church peopled largely with kindly souls who are willing to sift through the grain of other Christians’ feeble verbal offerings, take what is nourishing, and with the breath of kindness blow the chaff away.”
This is what I try to do. For me these comments are part of that sifting process. Thanks for your willingness to offer that grain.
there was a man named Lot had a wife he thought was hot…
The beauty of a metaphor is that it provides some fresh insights.
The problem with a metaphor is that it doesn’t answer every possible question, explore every nuance or facet of what it tries to describe. Metaphors, even the best ones are good - up to a point.
Sherry’s use of the Jericho story probably wasn’t meant to be a comprehensive theological statement, and definitely not THE comprehensive theological statement (”Hey, I’ve finally figured out the point of that whole Jericho thing!”) to which all other Bible stories must conform.
So, for the sake of this communion meditation, the walls of Jericho are bad. That doesn’t negate Nehemiah’s wall being good; anymore than Jesus describing yeast as being hypocrisy (Luke 12:1) negates his use of yeast as symbolising the Kingdom of God (Luke 13:20-21).
This doesn’t answer every question or point raised in this discussion; but, like a metaphor, it wasn’t intended to do so.
Kerry, the feeble verbal offerings Sherry was referring to, chaff and all, were her own.
Kerry, the feeble verbal offerings Sherry was referring to, chaff and all, were her own.
At least, that’s how I read it, and not as an attack on anyone else’s comments.
Troy, please refresh my memory — what needs defending?
Kerry, what constitutes gibberish?
My guess is that Sherry used the Jericho story because it tied in with Mike’s sermon on Joshua and the walls of Jericho.
First, I thought Jamie B. makes a humdinger of a point about metaphor. They’re used to provide insight but not to explain every jot and tittle. (Or is it tiddle, Dr. Freud?) Let’s all just try to relax and enjoy it.
Ane here are just a few thoughts on Nehemiah, a favorite OT narrative of mine –
One reason for the wall was to separate the Jews from the people of Moab, Ammon, and Ashdod and to keep the Jews from inter-marrying with them. This was not like keeping them away from the Baptists and Methodists or those who allow women to speak in assemblies (*grin*); these folk believed in multiple gods, their worship assemblies were drunken orgies, and they sacrificed their children in fire. Yowza.
And as it turns out, the wall did very little to keep that from happening anyway, which I find to be quite telling. When Nehemiah leaves the wall behind for a while and comes back (chapter 13), it’s all happening again. The Sabbath is being ignored (13:15ff), godless Tobiah has actually been given a room “in the courts of the house of God” (13:7), the priests are nowhere to be found (13:10-11), and intermarrying is back in fashion. Nehemiah is so frustrated that he resorts to violence to try to make it stop (13:25 — “I rebuked them and called curses down on them. I beat some of the men and pulled out their hair.” Again I say — Yowza.) And history tells us that Nehemiah’s noble but sometimes violent efforts didn’t really change things. Walls can’t force change. Only Jesus — the one who destroyed walls –could change things.
From Ephesians 2:
“But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.”
Gotta get back to work. It’s been fun. Sort of.
Gonna print the chorus to that song anytime soon, Someone/Someone Else?
Ha! Probably not…
Sherry’s words remind me of Jesus’ words from Matthew (ch. 5): “If you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.” Clearly Jesus was about reconciliation.
Some have objected to Sherry’s point on the basis that Jerusalem had a wall. The walls of Jerusalem represented God’s protection of his people. In fact, in Zechariah (ch. 2) God said Jerusalem would one day be a city without walls, because HE HIMSELF WILL BE THE WALL. The image here is not of division, but of protection. And Nehemiah wanted to rebuild the wall of Jerusalem because, as he says, it was a disgrace for the city to be in ruins. The fact that Jerusalem had a wall doesn’t seem to me to rebut Sherry’s message in any way.
Some here seem to have less a problem with what Sherry said than the fact that she was allowed to say it at all. I won’t try to convince anyone otherwise. I’ll just say I’m so glad she did.
Thank you Sherry for your words. And thank you Mike for posting them here.
Thanks, Mark. Funny thing is: I grew up in a very traditional C of C, and it’s incredibly hard for me to overcome that early conditioning, even though I’ve been convinced in my mind and heart that what I was taught as a child regarding the role of women in the church needs to be re-examined. Even after I reached those conclusions myself, it was a long time before I would speak publically in church. I worried that it would cause someone else to stumble. I’ve never been one of those women fomenting to get up in the pulpit–I’ve been dragged there by study and conviction, not by desire. Ironically, Bill asked me to lead the prayer for the bread on Sunday but I declined, not because I think it’s wrong: it’s just too far out of my childhood comfort zone. That’s some baggage that’s hard to shake, and it takes time for the feelings to line up with the brain.
I’m sure this will only re-inforce the convictions of some, that my words were spoken with a feminist agenda in mind. I can’t help that. All I can say is that, while there may be some women wanting to push their way to the front, my experience with women in the churches of Christ is that they primarily want to do what is right, please God, and nurture the body of Christ. They are willing to step out and brave the insults and false accusations of others for the sake of the gospel of truth, but it’s not a fun thing. It’s not what they would choose, except that they feel compelled by the Spirit of God.
Peace to you all.
C.- Thanks for asking. There are several statements that I can find no real basis for. They are as follows:
1. “Walls bother him(God).”
2. “They’re(walls) not a part of his original plan.”
3. “There were no walls in Eden.”
My biggest concern was the twisting of Gal 3:28 to fit this anti-wall premise. “For there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” The way that I understand this verse, within its context, is that the wall(law) is not between each of these, but between all of these and salvation. In other words, the law was removed, and the promise was fulfilled, not to equate men with women, but to equate men and women with heirs.
The addition of spirit and flesh, and God and human, in this context, begs an explanation as well.
Isn’t it a blessing to have that wall of the law torn down between all of us and God (salvation) and that through Christ we don’t have to have a perfect understanding of scripture. I hope we can all celebrate our salvation even in our disagreement…. can’t we??
Troy?
Kerry?
Sherry, I am blessed by your courage and that of the other women you mention.
I hope that one day you feel comfortable accepting the invitation to pray. How I wish I had grown up in a church where each person was encouraged to express themselves, both to the church and to God in the presence of the church. Instead, I was cheated out of the opportunity to be blessed by more than half of those I worshipped with. We will never know what they might have been able to offer.
Generation after generation of young women have grown up in this environment, learning through observation that what they have to say is not regarded as important. I’m so thankful for churches like Highland and women that, as you said, “step out and brave the insults and false accusations of others for the sake of the gospel of truth.” My two daughters will not be taught (by word or deed) that their voices are insignificant. I am no longer part of the Church of Christ, and this is one of the reasons I can’t return. But I pray that one day all of the daughters of Churches of Christ everywhere will have women like you to look up to and learn from.
Sherry Rankin - I love you. I think you are strong and courageous.
Candy, you are so sweet
“All I can say is that, while there may be some women wanting to push their way to the front, my experience with women in the churches of Christ is that they primarily want to do what is right, please God, and nurture the body of Christ. They are willing to step out and brave the insults and false accusations of others for the sake of the gospel of truth, but it’s not a fun thing. It’s not what they would choose, except that they feel compelled by the Spirit of God”.
Oh, Sherry-thank you so much for saying that, and for being willing to re-examine on your own what you were raised to think. It is not an easy process, but I am incredibly thankful for people who are willing to step out there and examine this issue through the lens of scripture in a new light. I know that is scary for many-I understand and empathize with that, and that is why it is even more encouraging when people are willing. I completely resonate with what you wrote-having heard the calling of God to enter into ministry in the churches of Christ, this journey has not always been easy or fun, but the rewards and blessings have been AMAZING-because I know I am (trying to) follow what God wants, and NOT what I want (I have never had any kind of agenda)-although I know that would be hard to convince some. I have become ok with that, and I continue to try to be faithful to what God has called me to, even when humans to do not approve.
“Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ”. ~Galatians 1:10
Thank you again, Sherry, Mike, Highland, Mark, and others for being willing to be open and honest about this topic-even when it may be tough. May all of you struggling with this idea be blessed and may the Spirit guide you in your study…
May ALL of us on this journey continue to be blessed as we seek to become more like Him~
Leland,
My much earlier reference was not to you, in fact, I did not think anyone would refer to it, or me, as chicken poop. I was just stating my amazement that such a beautiful sentiment and message of God’s love for all could be turned into however many different things it was turned into.
As for the genocide, I can state nothing more than Mike did. I’m not saying the he speaks for me or for any group of people, but I agree with what he said and can’t think of another way to phrase it.
Sorry you were offended.
Hey Sherry! It was great to hear that you and Bill served communion Sunday… wish I could have been there to commune with you! Thanks for you words of reconciliation– which IS what we’re called to a ministry of… right? What else would be appropriate for the table of the Lord other than a word of togetherness and barrier breaking!
Blessings to you and Bill!
Scott Simpson
Paul Mathis,
You have my unqualified apology.
What about the few? On November 30th Mike wrote, in reference to this issue at Highland, that “A few have left, but not many.” What about those few? Where have they gone? Are they safe? Do you even know their names? Have they switched churches or left the body of Christ completely? If I was responsible for someone leaving our church, I could not sleep at night until these questions were answered.
How many members is the body of believers at Highland willing to sacrifice to make this statement? If it were more than a few, would you change course?
I know that some are thinking that if changes are not made then people will leave. My answer to that is that if what you are doing is consistant with the Word of God, then if people leave, they’ve got a problem with the Message and the messenger is not at fault.
Troy, and I know you’ll never gain the circumspection needed to internalize this observation, but your attitude, approach and views are simply poisonous.
Why don’t you start your own blog and rant there. It would take you 60 second to create one through Google. I checked and the address http://www.poisonousstuffisayonpreacheremikesblogbutshouldsay herebutamafraidtobecausenoonewillreadme.blogspot.com is available to you.
Is that divisive of me to say? Probably, but I think all rational readers of this thread locate the origin of the divisive tone with you. The crap is on your doorstep.
Richard- Do you realize how many Bible scholars read this blog? Not the least of which is Mike. If I am in the wrong, I would welcome any of them to correct me with scripture.
As far as your entry, it speaks for itself.
Hurray for you, Richard! I think you speak for 99% of the people reading this blog, including the “Bible scholars.” Troy, you need to learn the difference between “correcting with Scripture” and “throwing pearls before swine.” Maybe the reason no one corrects you is that you clearly wouldn’t recognize legitimate correction if it jumped up and bit you on the nose. Or whatever.
Who’s next?
I’ll take another shot at it. Why not?
Troy, God “sends rain upon the just and the unjust,” and apparently, so does Mike Cope, since he could cut you off at any time but chooses not to, because he is gracious, open to other opinions, generous, and not mean-spirited.
Too bad the same can’t be said of you. Or me, either. I’d cut you off in a heartbeat. But then again, I’m not God. Or Mike. Good thing, too. There SHOULD be room for open discussion of opinions, even odious and offensive ones. In our better moments, most of us realize that. The sheer entertainment value of this blog would drop significantly if you left it.
So preach on, dude!
Okay Troy, I’ll show you why you are wrong. Here is your initial post in full:
I think that Mrs. Rankin got it exactly backwards with regard to the garden of Eden. It is because a wall was breached (that God put in place) that caused the fall of man. Not the other way around.
My suspicion tells me that all of this talk about walls, by Mrs. Rankin, was said in order to drive home the point that there should be no distinction between the roles of men and women in the church. That is not what Gal.3:28 says.
My complaint is that when a church pursues an agenda, based on such a divisive issue, then unity is the ultimate casualty.
Let’s break it down.
I think that Mrs. Rankin got it exactly backwards with regard to the garden of Eden. It is because a wall was breached (that God put in place) that caused the fall of man. Not the other way around.
If you read through Sherry’s post the “wall” is a metaphor for separation between Man/Man and God/Man. True, a prohibition was in place in the Garden but it wasn’t a wall of separation between God and Man. And that is precisely Sherry’s point.
Now, you have a point as well, but your reading of Sherry was willfully uncharitable. In her use of the metaphor of “wall” she was correct in her characterization of the Eden condition: There was no initial wall between God and Man. Do you dispute that point? If not, you agree with Sherry. You seem smart so I guessing that missing this obvious point wasn’t a lapse of intelligence and more a lapse of character on your part.
My suspicion tells me that all of this talk about walls, by Mrs. Rankin, was said in order to drive home the point that there should be no distinction between the roles of men and women in the church. That is not what Gal.3:28 says.
I think the word suspicious is very apt here. You took a very spiritual message and read it suspiciously. Again, you were the one who inserted the nasty tone. Sherry clearly didn’t.
My complaint is that when a church pursues an agenda, based on such a divisive issue, then unity is the ultimate casualty.
Note that Sherry was speaking to her own church who was being overseen by its local elders. What is this “church” pursuing “an agenda” you speak of? Highland is local congregation of the CoC, so its spiritual life is accountable to God. Highland can’t pursue an agenda outside of its local scope. And it’s not showing up at your door trying to change your church. So be a good CoC member and let the local congregational structure discern the will of God as it sees fit. What do you want to be, the pope?
Richard- Sherry said,”The first consequence of the fall was the building of a wall.” The fact is that the wall(prohibition) was already in place, and it was the crossing of that line that resulted in the seperation of man and God. In other words sin is what seperated Adam and Eve from God, not guilt as Sherry described. The underlying point here is that it is easier to tear down a wall that man has built than one that God has erected. Meaning that man is responsible for the wall between women and the pulpit and not God.
No one has disputed my suspicion that the underlying theme of this message was that there should be no ditinction between the roles of men and women in the church. Are you telling me that it is a coincidence that this topic was chosen, and that Sherry was chosen to present it? I would like to know the circumstances surrounding the selection of the topic. Who had their material first, Mike or Sherry. Why didn’t Sherry speak about grace or forgiveness or love? Why else would she speak on this topic if she had no axe to grind?
I completely repect the autonomy of Highland. They can do whatever they want. However, with this blog and Mike’s role as Bible professor, he has brought the issues of Highland into the public arena.
Attaboy, Troy.
Troy, it’s clear you win the prize. I’m sure you’ll be raptured right away. Indeed, many of us are counting on it…
Oh, and by the way, thanks for all of your talk of grace, forgiveness, and love. You’re an inspiration and a model for all of us… A veritable little Christ for us to follow. Thanks for staying suspicious. I’m sure God appreciates your protection.
“Meaning that man is responsible for the wall between women and the pulpit and not God.”
What specific chapters/verses in the Bible back this claim? I’m just curious.
crutcherfam- This statement was in the context of the point that I beleive Sherry was making. Namely, that man is responsible for all walls, including the wall between women and the pulpit, and not God. See I Cor. 14:34 and I Tim. 2:12.
Speaking of walls: I can’t resist the temptation to indulge in a little psychoanalysis (I admit, this is the ultimate ad hominim argument, but that’s something you clearly know how to dish out, so presumably you can take it): Troy, you are named after a famous town whose walls fell down. Clearly, that has scarred you for life. It is touching and a little sad to watch you work through those issues in such a public venue, but I admire your courage.
Is this what happens to someone at Highland when they disagree with you? I’ve been called an unjust, meanspirited, poisonous, scarred pig whose death has been called for. Maybe there are greater issues at hand.
Yeah, Troy. And they eat children at Highland too.
Troy, while I appreciate the nefariousness you suspect in each element of this story, I can affirm to you a few pertinent facts: first, Mike chose the topic of Jericho and its walls some time ago–probably months ago–as part of a series he’s preaching at Highland. Sherry and I got an email (I’m the Bill whom Mike notes helped deliver these thoughts at Highland on Sunday–a fact you seem to have conveniently elided in much of your “analysis”) early last week asking us to do communion thoughts and presenting us with the topic for the week. So Mike had the topic first…
As an independent congregation, Highland has men, women, and families present communion thoughts–something the Highland eldership and Highland congregation have overseen and by which we’ve all been richly blessed. So yes, the topic and the choice of our family was “planned,” but not on the basis of any particular “axe to grind”–other than the fact that BOTH of us believe that the overall trajectory of scripture is, indeed, about the tearing down of walls (a theological point that you perhaps don’t share–though it’s hard to tell from the subtlety of your posts). As for your suspicion that it’s part of a nefarious plan, that would be stupid since the participation of women in public worship is already a done deal at our congregation. No nefariousness necessary, you see…we can be open about our belief (along with a wide variety of biblical writers) that Christ and his kingdom have erased divisions among us…
And while I realize that your reading has been driven by your own “ideology” (the most charitable way I can put it–”hidden agenda” seems like a misnomer since you’re not doing a very good job of hiding your own “axe”), the whole contemplation is pretty obviously about love, grace and forgiveness.
But I suppose that won’t be satisfactory to you, so let me offer another option: Rather than merely critiquing this devotion, please show us how it ought to be done. I invite you to write a communion contemplation using the story of Jericho as a theme. Your presentation should take no more than 5 minutes to deliver–so it should be no more than a page and a half. There. Now your assignment mirrors our assignment. I’m sure we’ll all look forward to seeing what you come up with. And please feel free to treat as merely optional your tacit call to cover every theological point and every point at which someone might disagree if this would hinder your combined tasks of being devotionally relevant and meeting the time requirement…
You clearly seem to have the time on your hand to produce something like this–and maybe it could be the first post on your blog!
Troy, nobody was calling for your death…
Bill- Thank you for the response. I think.
Your use of the phrase “overall tragectory of scripture” could not more perfectly illustrate our differences. I believe that scripture has already hit its mark and is not on a tragectory that is subject to every wind that blows.
My primary concern goes back to what Mike wrote on Nov. 30 with regard to a few leaving Highland over this issue.
I will accept the challenge to write a communion contemplation using the story of Jericho as a theme. To give a more accurate comparison, I will re-write the last three paragraphs of your wifes piece. Look for it tomorrow. It seems all this time on my hands has slipped away.
Troy, “re-writ[ing] the last three paragraphs” might make you feel pretty good about yourself, getting to dole correction ex cathedra, but frankly, that’s not your assignment. Start from scratch. Write your own contemplation. Your differing theological starting point should mean that your whole devotional is different. And you’ve had more than ample opportunity for rebuttal here. I’m nauseatedly disinterested in more of the same. I want to see you create something from your own mind and understanding. That’s your assignment. If it’s just more of your critique, don’t bother posting it.
Let’s see you put something of your own out there for a change. Or are you going to let a change-agent woman with an “axe to grind” set the agenda for you?
Oooh. Harsh. I wouldn’t worry about it too much, though, Bill, even if he does just “re-write.” It’s hard to imagine that someone who doesn’t know how to use a little thing like a possessive apostrophe properly will be able to correct weightier matters like theology…
77, you seem bitter, although you’re right that facility with grammar is a good predictor of theological acumen. What’s wrong? Did you pull a hamstring or something? Or has it been leftovers for the past three nights? Problems with the missus?
Just teasing you, buddy. You know how I feel aboutcha.
P.S.: Bill, you’re my hero.
I’ve been teaching all day and just checked in. I have entered the twilight zone.
Go back to teaching, Mike. Blogging can be seriously bad for your blood pressure…
Troy,
Give it up buddy. When are you going to figure out you’re not welcome? Why put yourself through this? You’re not going to change anyone’s mind here and you subject yourself to ridicule and condacension. This blog is a lovefest for Mike and his groupies. Leave it be my friend.
gt - What are you smokin’, man? I can only assume you haven’t been a longtime reader of this blog. I seriously don’t know of any blog that permits such a wide variety of opinions. This is hardly a lovefest.
What strikes me is that small people take potshots and then they can’t take the heat. When heat comes then they whine and say, “bullies!”
It’s sad, really.
I think what heated this up considerably is that the attacks didn’t come against Mike but against a guest writer — someone from his own church who had shared a communion meditation.
I can’t read his mind, but I’d be willing to bet that in Mike’s wildest imagination he couldn’t imagine this to be controversial. God’s against walls and for reconciliation. Stay with the metaphor. Don’t read into it. It’s just a meditation on Ephesians 2.
Here’s my suggestion: if you want to participate and express an opposing view:
1. State it kindly, in Christian love. (I’d suggest you use the model of Mike’s response to Leland above.)
2. Assume the best about what others have written. Ask questions to clarify.
3. Quit being so incredibly small when people answer you. Don’t act like elementary age children and say, “Mommy, they’re being mean to me.”
Just suggestions. Seriously, qt, what have you been reading? Not the same blog I have.
Thanks for the support gt. No, this is something I must do. I do have a secret weapon, sharper than any double-edged sword. However, in the interest of peace and unity, my last entry on this blog will be in the morning.
AlGuy,
You’re right, and thanks for your charitable and very Christ-like reply. Your words weren’t directed to me, but I’ve taken them to heart: I’ve been guilty today of letting Troy get under my skin, with the result that I’ve been less than charitable. I’m ashamed of myself. Why is “turning the other cheek” the hardest thing in the world? Beats me…
AlGuy, I, too repent. It’s fun (wicked fun, though) to tweak someone who starts out playing the “I shall correct you rabble” card but then so obviously isn’t up for it…
In the spirit of Christian unity, Troy, I must say that your most recent post worries me. You’ve told us you have a weapon and that you intend to end it all in the morning. Please, reconsider this rash threat you’ve made against yourself…
Alguy,
I never said Mike doesn’t allow differing views.In fairness to him he rarely responds and when he does it’s in a kind way.
But let’s examine some of the kind and loving words or phrases addressed to Troy:
-feeble
-blind
-Ignore the sniping of a few others
-poisonous
-Why don’t you start your own blog and rant there
-The crap is on your doorstep
-odious
-offensive
-Troy, it’s clear you win the prize. I’m sure you’ll be raptured right away. Indeed, many of us are counting on it…
-I’m nauseatedly disinterested in more of the same
And so on.
Don’t pretend anyone here cares what he has to say. One thing we agree on though. Highland has the right to conduct themselves as they see fit. I think Troy is wasting a great deal of time and energy arguing back and forth. Come to think of it so am I.
Enjoy yourselves.
gt, you’re right. I’ve already acknoweledged that we’ve ganged up on Troy in an un-Christian way, and I’ve apologized. But don’t, please, try to cast Troy as some kind of martyr for the sake of the gospel. You listed the uncharitable things said ABOUT Troy, with no mention of the uncharitable things said BY Troy. Be fair, if you’re going to be anything.
Someone, I did ignore your apology and for that I’m sorry. After I typed those words earlier I did reflect on the tone of Troy’s comments and realized that this is a two way street.
Since Troy is one of the few voices here that espouse a different point of view it’s easy to ignore his sometimes harsh tone. Or mine. I sincerely apologize for my blunt comments.
Troy, I too am making my last comment.
I have just recently begun reading Mike’s blog. I thought that the devotional meditation was very good. Unfortunately, I believe it has been tainted somewhat by the conversation about it. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, so I may be naive, but in my experience when people write devotional thoughts they come out of prayerful thought and consideration, as well as from something that God has placed on their heart. We all cannot place ourselves in the same place as the writer when we read their words. Because of that, we tend to put meaning where meaning isn’t meant to be and we judge the writer. It seems that Sherry had a struggle to even present the thoughts Mike has shared with us on his blog, and it seems as though we focus on our misplaced interpretations to judge her.
Sherry, your message was an important one for me to hear. I am so thankful that God loves us despite our faults and sin, and although we as humans like to be accepted in the end God’s acceptance of us through Christ as His children is all that truly matters.
What did I say that was harsh? Can I not question the intentions of those who have admitted that their actions are a source of division?
As far as my communion contemplation, here goes:
Why such an elaborate plan? Couldn’t God just say the word and the walls of Jericho would crumble? Instead, God put into motion an elaborate plan to bring down the walls of the city. The plan involved marching around the city, trumpets of rams’ horns, the carrying of the ark of the Lord, and a loud shout to bring down the city walls. All of this was to be done in a specific order according to the specific plan of God. When it was finished, the walls lay in ruins, and the plan of God was fulfilled.
There was another wall, although not a grand as that of Jericho, that an elaborate plan of God brought down. This plan was in the works for thousands of years. It involved a promise, a virgin birth, a ministry, and a Messiah. The plan culminated in an accusation, trials, beatings, a crucifixion, a trembling of the earth, and burial. On the third day, the wall, made complete with a single stone, was once and for all breached. This time it wasn’t a city that was conquered, but death itself.
What we’re about to do is remember the one who breached that final wall and conquered death on our behalf. Why such an elaborate plan? Because an elaborate love deserves no less.
Adios.
Write on, Sherry–or is that Right on?
Troy, many things that you said yesterday were harsh; I think you know what they were. And of course you have your right to freedom of speech, which entitles you to question or say anything, although you should not be surprised if people react harshly to your harsh tone. It’s not fair (or mature) to ignore the Golden Rule yourself but cry “foul” when anyone else does it to you.
As for your communion thoughts, I think they are lovely, and I could certainly say the “amen” to them. They do not answer all the questions or deal with all the problems you’ve pointed out in past comments, but then again, neither did mine; and as perhaps you discovered when you wrote them, communion thoughts are not designed to cover all possible doctrinal bases.
I think that those whom you have alienated will be inclined to pick apart your communion thoughts and assign them uncharitable motives, because that’s what you did to mine. But I appeal to everyone: let’s show Troy the charity, grace and love he deserves as a brother in Christ, whether or not he has been willing or able to do the same for others.
After all, that’s what knocking down walls is all about, right?
I, personally, think Troy and Sherry’s meditations harmonize nicely. They each express facets of Greek Orthodoxy (themes generally lost in Protestant churches) concerning the work of the Christ. Sherry focuses on the salvific features of the Incarnation and Troy on Christus Victor.
yeah, uh, that’s right–that was the plan all along, to express facets of Greek orthodoxy…Ha! Thanks for making me sound WAY smarter than I am, Richard…:-)
Sherry you’re a hoot. You know what can make you feel dumb? I’ll tell you. Going to see Beowulf with three English Professors…
EVERYONE who went to THAT version of Beowulf felt dumb. Can’t believe I paid 10 bucks to watch a cartoon butcher one of the classics…
Sherry, I loved your communion thoughts. I think many (if not all) of us struggle with the reflex to take the reflections of others and critique them, instead of internalizing them. However, I think this keeps us from doing the real work of self-reflection. I admit, that focusing on the literal and finding points of disagreement are a comfort zone that keep me from really digging into my life and seeing all the areas where God is trying to come in and help me to grow. Sometimes though, for whatever reason, we just let something in. Your reflections did that for me. I read your blog and thought about all of the walls that I have built between God and myself, myself and others. My anger with God after watching a friend suffer and die of cancer. The wall that exists between my non-believing family and myself. The walls I pictured were not made of brick, or stone, but of pride, selfishness, and flesh. Sherry, I am a master wall builder! Thank you for reminding me that Christ is a master at tearing them down!
May God bless you and your husband as you minister in the Kingdom as one!
Richard - Don’t forgot that there were five of us. I noticed you didn’t mention that I made you feel dumb. I was just afraid they’d break out into old English. (You may recall that when I even joked about it, they were all able to do it!)
Mike,
I was going to mention you were there but you have a reputation to keep up and I didn’t want thousands of people to know about the kind of people you hang out with. Shoot, even I was embarrassed to be seen in public with them.
Thanks, guys…you sure know how to make a girl feel special…:-)