Can Christians Support (This) War?
I wish it were easier for churches to have a discussion about war. But it’s one of the most difficult issues to talk about.
For one thing, for many families this isn’t just a hypothetical discussion. They have sons and daughters who are in the military — some of whom are deployed overseas. And others are veterans who are proud of their military service.
There are two historic positions that are represented in almost all our churches.
A third “position” I won’t consider. It’s the one that seems dominant in places — the “I’m-proud-to-be-an-American-and-let’s-kick-some-Islamic-butt” position. It isn’t Christian, so I won’t discuss it.
One view is that Christians must never participate in or support war. This position has, among other arguments, these convictions:
(1) The teaching of Jesus encourages us, in light of the inbreaking shalom of God, to refrain from anything except love for our enemies. He insists that we not pay back “eye for eye and tooth for tooth” — the law of retaliation (Matthew 5:38-42). And he says: “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven” (Matthew 5:43-48).
(2) The death of Jesus points us to a way of nonviolence. He broke the cycle of violence through life-giving sacrifice.
(3) The Old Testament points to a time when swords will be beaten into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks (e.g., Isaiah 2:4). I remember when Hugo McCord came to our church in Missouri for a gospel meeting and taught the pacifist position. This was his text.
Pacifism has historically been an emphasis in leaders of the Restoration Movement — leaders who were convinced that others trust in horses and chariots but we trust in the name of the Lord our God. You’d perhaps be surprised to know that many of the influential Christian leaders whose books you read or sermons you’ve listened to are pacifists.
The other position is the just war position. This conviction is that in this fallen world, evil must be contained. With reluctance and with tears, we must hold back those who seek to oppress, even if force is involved — all the while longing for the peace-filled kingdom to come in its fullness.
What’s my position? That’s not significant here. (Perhaps I’ll drop a note if a discussion develops. You might be surprised.) What IS significant is that churches are going to have to have this discussion. We’re going to need to listen to each other without condemning. We’re going to have to study afresh and agree to disagree, since study alone (contrary to what I thought growing up) won’t solve this!
Mike,
I loved how you were able to drop all vestige of pastor/teacher/preacher this morning after Edith’s side-splitting personalized rendition of the story of Joseph. The words “well” and “hell” will always bring back the memory of this morning.
Your reaction was so precious. It was as though we were seated in your living room enjoying her child’s insights to this story, and your wonderful child-like reaction. Your plea of “Can someone pary for me?”seemed to have more than one meaning, in my mind; ‘pray for me to return to pastor/teacher/preacher stance’ – or my favorite; ‘pray in my stead, I can’t get control of my giggles.’ What a wonderful and memorable moment. You blessed not only our Sunday morning, but many mornings to come with this memory. Bless you and thank you!!
Mike ,
Forgive the veering off topic, just had to thank you for this morning!!
God,
Keep our troops safe.
Be with our troops families, especailly during the holidays.
Help us as a your Church give them support and comfort during this time the season. Let them know that they are loved and suppported.
Let them know that them feel a part of a community that loves them a you have love us and gave your self unselfishly for us. God let us show them your love, grace and mercy during this time of year. Let they’re Children be showed with toys and clothes. Let the mothers be comforted with the comfort with the comfort that only you can giv. This is my prayer oh, God that we will be your Church lived out in a group of people who need us so desprerately. It is in you Son’s precious name I pray. AMEN.
And God,
Continuing the prayer from the previous person,
please keep bin Laden and the members of al-Qaeda safe.
Be with their families, especailly during the holidays.
Help us as your Church give them support and comfort during this season. Let them know that they are loved and supported.
Let them know that we view them as part of the human community. God let us show them your love, grace and mercy during this time of year. Let their children be showered with toys and clothes. Let the mothers be comforted with the comfort that only you can give.
This is our prayer, God. AMEN.
I know one thing for sure, peace WAS NOT when Saddam was still in power. His reign of terror was not peace. This war has killed far fewer than he in his regime. If the barbarians are invading and going to kill our children, refusal to physically attempt to stop them makes us the killers of our children. I’d much rather a madman, intent on killing be killed to never kill again. Seems God thought that way too if you read the Old Testament.
Jesus had a specific purpose in allowing himself to be executed. That does not mean that we are to not seek justice when someone has broken the law or harmed someone we love. If you read about Paul’s life, you’ll see that he didn’t take too kindly to mistreatment. He would tell public officials they had no right to strike him because he was a Roman citizen which in those days was a clear threat that he could appeal to Rome as a citizen and the person who hurt him would be severely punished.
It’s also interesting that Jesus told His disciples to carry swords (which were the guns of their day). We have a record of Jesus instructing His followers to sell some of their clothes to buy a sword. When they indicated they had two swords among the twelve of them, Jesus then said that it was enough, as we see in Luke 22:36 and 38: “Then he said to them, But now, he who has a purse, let him take it, and his scrip: and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one…. And they said, Lord, here are two swords. And he said to them, ‘It is enough.’”
Jesus did not prohibit his disciples from having lethal weapons, but instead made sure that at least some of His disciples had them. He even suggested the method of funding for the purchase of weapons. “Sell your garment” implies the fairly basic necessity of them being armed during their travels. This cannot refer to a “spiritual” sword since a “spiritual” money bag and knapsack and garment would seem to be stretching an interpretation to fit a preconceived idea.
“But didn’t Jesus say that we should turn the other cheek?” In Matthew 5:39, Jesus said: “But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
This refers to the response of a Christian to less than lethal force. We should allow ourselves to be misused and defrauded for the sake of peace. But this in no way contradicts the responsibility of Christians to defend their loved ones from deadly criminal assault in a free society.
Jesus assumed the right of a man to defend his family by the use of his arms in this quotation from Him in Luke 11:21-22: “When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”
Peace in a man’s palace or home is the result of being armed, not disarmed.
“Keep peace as much as it is up to you.” A little slap in the face? Don’t sweat it. But someone tries to break into your house, be well armed. Someone blows up a building killing thousands of your friends and family and threatening to do it again…I’d say don’t let it happen again.
Dear Christian Forums,
I watch the news pretty regularly, but I missed this:
“If the barbarians are invading and going to kill our children, refusal to physically attempt to stop them makes us the killers of our children.”
Is the barbarian invasion covered on some network I don’t get?
On the other hand, what is an Iraqi family supposed to do if they notice American troops shooting their children? Sit quietly by? What if American troops are raping their daughter, as has been documented? Send thank-you letters to Bush for liberating them?
You defend the Iraq war during your post, and end with this:
“Someone blows up a building killing thousands of your friends and family and threatening to do it again…I’d say don’t let it happen again.”
What does this have to do with the Iraq war?
Attacking Iraq after 9-11 makes as much sense as attacking China after Pearl Harbor. Saddam Hussein had nothing whatsoever to do with 9-11. Not one of the 9-11 hijackers was Iraqi: most of them were Saudi, as is Bin Ladin.
God forgive us.
Wow. This is an intense discussion. What makes me the most sad is the lack of faith in the power of Jesus Christ to reconcile and convert ANYONE! I do not accept the stance that all Muslims are alike, that they hate us, that it will always be this way. Paul was a terrorist. He was converted. Paul’s conversion shows us that where there is life, there is hope. If we really believed in the transforming power of Christ, it would make it much easier to envision ourselves as ambassadors for Christ. I think we have too many years of media working against us, it makes it hard to see people for whom they COULD be.
I admire those missionaries who go into our “enemy camps”, sharing the light and life of Christ. I believe theirs is the toughest and most admirable service of all. They not only have to overcome the beliefs of those they aim to share the Gospel with, they also have to overcome the lack of faith by those of us here! Ananias was afraid to go and see Paul, but God’s message was clear, GO! I think we are afraid of this message, it is easier to call someone an enemy than it is to see what they could be when the blood of Christ is pumping through their veins.
We are called to go into the world and share the Good News. I believe this is the farthest thing from pacifism. Rather, it is the ultimate act of faith and courage. In all this discussion, let’s not forget how powerful the transforming work of Christ is!
Thank you, edgar. You’re spot-on.
Amen, Cheryl!
Larry James: Does passing out copies of Brian McLaren’s “The Speech That Was Never Given” count? It is great. To live as “peacemakers” and pray for our enemies is counter-intuitive as is following Jesus in this country/world. As Tony Campolo likes to say [something to this effect]: “The USA is the best Babylon around but it is still Babylon.”
Visit this site to learn about a handful of Christians who have inserted themselves into the conflict within Burma to bring peace in very practical ways:
I’ve met these people and they are probably the most courageous people I know. Their love for the people of Burma has driven out their fear. They choose to act peacefully but their love is very dangerous.
Apparently the blog didn’t like my html code. Here’s the link mentioned above: http://www.freeburmarangers.org/About_Us/
Personally, I am opposed to engaging in warfare, but there is a time and place, but war seems to miss the point of souls.
http://www.matthewsblog.waynesborochurchofchrist.org
While I am not a pacifist, I do have problems with Just War doctrine. It seems to have been a doctrine created to speak to an existing situation, and this seems to make it work the wrong direction–from position to scripture. This creates, I think, a tendency to use it to justify our actions. I’m not sure our goal should be to justify what we have done or want to do. Just War, I think, tends to be too us-centered instead of God-centered or even others-centered.
In addition, the tendency is there for us to patriotically support whatever war our government engages in. It is difficult to imagine a situation in which certain segments of Christianity (and this doesn’t always go down party lines) would find reasons to call our cause unjust. Going against our nation’s military efforts seems wrong to us. Most of us have members of the military in our families and have been raised with certain ideas and values that run parallel to support of the military. For instance, I spent the first seven years of my life living with my grandparents. My grandfather was a WWII vet, and you can guess what kind of view toward the military this formed.
It is difficult for us to separate ourselves out, to view the world from a place outside of our culture. I’m not sure I know how to do it personally.
Yes, I believe that war is at times necessary. I’m just not sure that it is necessary as often as we go to war, and I’m not sure the will is always there among Christians to oppose an unjust war.
Mike,
May I ask why you feel this:
“What IS significant is that churches are going to have to have this discussion. ”
WHY must we, as churches/congregations have this discussion??
Cheryl,
I think you have said some very good things.
Please elaborate on the following:
“We are called to go into the world and share the Good News. I believe this is the farthest thing from pacifism. Rather, it is the ultimate act of faith and courage.”
What did you mean that going into the world and sharing the Good News is the farthest thing from pacifism?
marcshoe,
You brought up a great point when you said, “It is difficult for us to separate ourselves out, to view the world from a place outside of our culture. I’m not sure I know how to do it personally.”
One way to accomplish this “outside our culture” perspective is to have some friends who are not American. When we develop friendships with people from other countries our perspective on war changes dramatically. All the sudden “they” become “we” and “them” become “us.” I have a Christian friend who is Iranian and lives in SE Asia. When I think about going to war with Iran… I think of Ibrahim and his family (still living inside Iran). That changes things.
Clint,
A pacifist does not get the “right” to be a pacifist because someone fought and killed for that right. I will be a pacifist whether America goes to war or not. Granted, I might be a dead pacifist if America didn’t go to war, but I can live (or die) with that!
Concerning your use of the OT, please refer to earlier posts and answer the questions posed to others who used the OT to defend the taking of innocent life. It’s a problematic stance and the questions need to be addressed.
Also, concerning your interpretation of Mat. 5, several have commented that Mat. 5:39 and Romans 12 only refer to repaying evil for evil and not war. Well, isn’t the Just War ideology based on repaying evil for evil? A Just War, we are told, can only be waged when there’s a justifiable reason to do so. Would not that justifiable reason be an evil committed prior to the initiation of the just war? So, a Just War MUST be a repayment of evil and, consequently, prohibited by those very same passages.
If it’s not a just war, then it’s a preemptive strike. Do you believe preemptive strikes can be just? Even if you were to try and defend that, aren’t all preemptive strikes based on some prior action or tendency that is evil, thus, making them a form of repayment of evil and in the same category as just wars?
jpierpont,
I love your last paragraph
“I am not denying that the government has the ability to go to war and defend the country…but what should our involvement be. The Gospel would suggest to me that it should be none at all.”
I think some of the non-pacifists have not understood this point. We are not saying that the US can’t go to war. Governments go to war and kill . . . that’s what they do. I just won’t be a part of it as a disciple of Jesus Christ, and whatever the government does or doesn’t do shouldn’t concern me too much because, as you commented, I’m longing and yearning for my true dwelling place.
“For me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.”
Greetings Maddog! In consideration of your question:
“What did you mean that going into the world and sharing the Good News is the farthest thing from pacifism?”
I meant that after Paul’s conversion, he chose a route that many modern Christians would consider to be pacifist. During a time when Christians (and other marginalized folks), were being persecuted and killed, he chose to go out and share the Good News about Jesus Christ. He shared this Good News with the very people who sought to kill him and others who shared his beliefs. I think Paul, and Jesus before him, chose a completely different way of approaching terrorism. It was not pacifist, yet battle lines were not drawn either. Paul was a converted terrorist, he knew first-hand the power of Christ, from the moment his eyes were opened, he began to see people for their potential in Christ. I believe that this is what drove him to go into dangerous places to change people not with earthly weapons, but with the shield of faith, the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
Thanks for the point of clarification. God Bless!
Kyle,
You said:
“I don’t believe in bombing abortion clinics because it simply won’t work. We should always avoid killing our opponents when we can. And in this instance we can. For that matter, killing our opponent won’t work. Unless you’re willing to rebel against our nation.”
Kyle, I must say as respectfully as I can, I find this paragraph quite disturbing. So, you approve the use of violence in lands you’ll never visit, but you won’t take up arms and defend the innocent CHILDREN in your own backyard? All because “it simply won’t work”??????? You know, that’s an argument that I’ve never truly understood from the Just War advocates. So a war is only just if you have a chance to win it? So the only just wars are the winnable ones? It seems to me that a war less winnable would be more just because you’d actually be standing on principle and not your ability to win the war. It’s very convenient for Just War advocates to only champion those wars which the believe they can win because it eliminates all of the other just causes that are never defended. So the ones who most need our help and assistance won’t get it because they’re a lost cause. I don’t know what that is, but it ain’t justice. And then, what if you’re wrong and the war is winnable? Don’t the lives of innocent, helpless and defenseless children deserve your effort?
You say, “We should always avoid killing our opponents when we can. And in this instance we can.” Well, why can’t we avoid killing our opponents in the Afghanistan/Iraq Wars? Is it that we feel more of a present danger to our own safety and, therefore, we can defend the current war, but truly don’t feel a connection to the unborn child that is murdered while very confident that no abortion doctor will come to murder us? I am sorry, but I see the abortion fight as one of the most just things we could do, if I believed in exerting violence.
“Unless you’re willing to rebel against our nation.” Yes, I am willing to rebel against this nation. This nation can’t (and won’t) make me do anything that I consider outside of my Christian walk, and I’m willing to accept any consequence resulting from that decision. Kyle, you speak as though you would never rebel against the US. Is this true? If it’s not, then obviously the killing of children isn’t, by your admission, a justifiable cause to take up arms. Then, what is?
Thanks Cheryl for that elaboration. Actually, you’ve described the pacifist position; you’ve simply added that we should find ways, Christian ways, to combat evil in our world. I agree. Pacifism doesn’t mean (or at least it doesn’t mean to me) to sit back and do nothing. The entire issue in this debate is not “if” to do something, but what can (should) we do? I liken what you say to Christians adopting children to fight abortion (I mentioned this in an earlier post). What would happen in our country if every believing family were to adopt just 1 child in the name of fighting abortion? And what if we publicized it so that the world would know it was a concerted effort? Think about it . .
maddog,
I figured someone would jump on that. It didn’t really come out the way I wanted.
I would prefer to look at each fight we must engage in with multiple fronts we can fight on. Assuming that all of the fronts we are considering are ethical, we should choose according to effectiveness. I’m trying to throw out emotion here so please don’t misread my words. In the case of abortion, blowing up clinics or murdering doctors is ineffective for several reasons. First, it would enrage our society and only strenghten their resolve, likely leading to an ultimate defeat. Second, abortion may be outlawed in a few years without violence and without turning away the lost who may view the church as a group of loving people and not as murderers (whether you would consider them to be or not). Third, we are trying to fight a battle against sin. Neither violence or changes in law are going to win that battle. But if we win the battle for hearts, we don’t necessarily need violence or law. And fourth, I haven’t resolved in my mind whether this would be sinful or not. It seems like it should be, but you are making a good argument in your parallel.
But you are right in part, I simply couldn’t bring myself to kill another human over this issue, even as it breaks my heart to see abortion continue. I don’t know what to do with that but pray.
As far as other lands go, there is a good point of debate about whether we should have resorted to violence in those countries. I have previously posted, that as many opinions as there are here, none of them are fact. We may or may not be effective. Some good, relatively unbiased, well-informed and experienced folks in the government and military disagree about this. I don’t really want to get into that debate because I know you have some good arguments there and so do others that stand on the other side of the issue. Ultimately the major differences in Iraq/Afghanistan and abortion are that we have no real legislative power and winning hearts doesn’t seem to be an immediate option (although as Christians, I’m not sure we’ve had the courage to try). Diplomacy has been used in the case of Iraq and it appeared to fail. You could say we just weren’t very good at it, but in any event it did fail.
“So the ones who most need our help and assistance won’t get it because they’re a lost cause. I don’t know what that is, but it ain’t justice. And then, what if you’re wrong and the war is winnable? Don’t the lives of innocent, helpless and defenseless children deserve your effort?”
I’m not saying we should do nothing in those cases. I’m saying violence is only one way to confront evil in the world. But we’re trying to defeat evil, not just make a showing. If violence will be ineffective, then why use it? There is a cost associated with violence and the gain needs to exceed the cost (however you measure that). I sure wouldn’t advocate violence every time we witness an injustice or evil. As Christians I believe we should be engaging on whatever fronts necessary. If we can avoid violence, let’s avoid it. I get that you believe that we could’ve avoided it in the current war. But from a strategic perspective, you can’t know that you’re right and neither can I know that I am.
I have appreciated the perspective you bring. Thanks.
I believe we are living in the end times. The message is being gospel is being taught in places we never have thought be before. The Bible is being translated into new launuages everyday. Technology is making it easier for people to hear the gospel meassage of Jesus Christ. 3rd world countries are now having solar and hand cranked lap tops avolable with internet capablity so they may have the change to read the Bible in their tongue. Jesus tells us that when ever man has hear the message of Jesus Christ he will return. We are quicker than we have ever have imagined. You look at the signes. The tossing of the seas. We have had more hurricaines than we have had had in the past. More thyphoons. More Sunoonami’s, Earthquakes, Famines, Wars (now talk of nukes being used. Iran on Israel. You know where that would lead. WWIII). We are having more meats, veggies, called back for eccoli. We are having lead in children’s toys. We are having supper bugs that anti-biotics won’t help. Read 1 Tim 3:1-ff Everything in that passage we see in our society today. I ask are we we living in the end times. If so are we ready? Are you? Think about your life. Think about God. His love. His grace. His desire to ahve a relationship with you. Mike know the importance of God’s desire for wanting that relationship for yur life. That is what life is all about. It is about having that relationship with Jesus Christ. Can Christians support war. Can we support peace within us to have a relationship with God while this war is going on and strive to make disciples too.?
A lot of interesting comments and discussions – one thing that has not been mentioned is the fact that as a parent – a loving, concerned parent – we discipline our children when they do wrong. If we are to truly love our neighbor as ourselves, to love our enemies, to turn the other cheek, sometimes that might mean discipline of one sort or another is necessary.
Julie –
Your “discipline” argument is an intriguing one. I suppose we carpet-bombed Afghanistan and continue to occupy Iraq because we love them? I just don’t buy that.
Try telling the wife whose innocent husband was killed in a firefight that this is all because of love. Or the daddy of the girl raped by US Marines. Sorry, but love turns the other cheek every time. It makes no record of wrongs. It is the first to extend the olive branch, even when it hasn’t had the last word — or shot. Love never fails.
War isn’t discipline. It isn’t love.
…and we are not the parents of the world’s other countries. War tends to involve self interest, but accepting war usually involves talking about war as if it is primarily for the benefit of others. Occasionally, it is. Often, we target who we want to target because of our own interests.
For fifteen months I looked into the eyes of mothers and fathers that could not speak my language, and into the eyes of widows and orphans that charished my presence and into the eyes of killers filled with hate. My interpreter was killed because insurgents found the Arabic copy of the NIV that I gave him. I could not call my self a Christian if I did not do something.
Whether it is wrong for me to be a soldier or not and call Christ my savior is for Him to decide. It is by the grace of God that I am saved, and many times over He saved me physically in “this” war.
We speak of thing that we do not know, but God knows them and glory be to Him in that fact.
Let me clearify my “call myself a Christian” statement. Before anyone gets started, I am not saying all Christians should fight in a war or pick up arms or anything like that in order to be a Christian. It just states that for me I could not believe I, me personally, lived upto what the Holy Spirit had placed in me if I had done nothing in “this” war.
Also, I am not the same Steve as previous Steve.
Full Name is Steve Valentine.
Christian forums,
In reviewing the more recent posts in this thread, I noticed that I didn’t respond to some of your comments. Pardon me.
First, no pacifist would defend Saddam or any evil person. I believe Saddam received just what Jesus talked about (death by sword) because he lived a very violent life. His case is a prime example of the wrath that can be administered by the higher powers (Rom. 13). This is the function of government. This is not, however, my function as God’s redeemed creation in Christ Jesus.
You said, “If the barbarians are invading and going to kill our children, refusal to physically attempt to stop them makes us the killers of our children.” Interesting . . . that makes you, then, guilty of about a million and a half abortions that are taking place right here in America annually (I’m assuming you’ve never exerted violence to stop abortion). Did Saddam kill 1.5 million children annually?
Also, please refer to earlier posts about the use of the OT to defend a Christian’s use of violence. There are some valid questions that must be answered.
Concerning the purpose of Jesus, I truly do take issue with those who say His purpose is not ours. If Jesus did not come to show us how to live in every situation, then we have the heavy task of determining when and when not to follow the ethic of Jesus. And I wouldn’t even trust us with that task because we would (have) conveniently shelve the ethic of Jesus when it requires us to go counter-cultural. I’m sorry, I’m in with Jesus all the way. His way is my way . . . it’s the only way. First-century saints surely didn’t reason like you (Jesus had a special purpose different from ours). Stephen did not take up arms to defend himself against a personal, physical attack against his person. Stephen had the honor of dying just like the Master as he uttered, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” So, did Stephen also have a purpose higher than us “regular” Christians? Who else also had this exceptional calling to be like Jesus? Please pardon my sarcasm, but it’s just kind of strange to hear that we shouldn’t be like Jesus.
Yes, Paul did exercise his rights as a Roman citizen. How does this contradict with what pacifists believe? I see no violence in exercising one’s rights, but Paul never used violence when his rights were denied or physical attack came against his person. Please don’t misrepresent the pacifist position (and I don’t think you are). We don’t just go looking to be misused or abused. Paul, many times in the book of Acts, and Jesus in the Gospels both escaped physical confrontation by leaving town or disappearing. When the authorities did catch them, however, they never used violence to resist.
Concerning the Luke 22 passage, I don’t agree with your interpretation, but I will admit that in my estimation, this is the toughest text for the pacifist position. Here are a couple of my reasons to reject the self-preservation theory of Luke 22.
1. Early Christians didn’t understand Jesus to be promoting violence against physical attack (reference the above example). Nearly all of the apostles that witnessed the events Luke 22 died violent deaths and put up no physical resistance in their apprehension. Even sword-swinging Peter died a martyr’s death. This seems strange considering the belief that Luke 22 is blanket permission to use violence for self-defense.
2. In Jesus’ earlier commission of the twelve (Mat. 10, Luke 9), He made no mention of taking a sword (for physical protection). If, in the Luke 22 passage, He was now telling them that they would need physical protection, they sure missed his point (see point 1).
3. If Jesus were promoting violence in the cases of self-preservation or self-defense, two swords don’t seem sufficient for twelve disciples.
4. Additionally, Jesus’ final phrase “It is enough” is a point of interpretational controversy. Since this post is already too long, you guys can look it up for yourselves. The same phrase is found in the Septuagint, Deut.3:26, and the meaning is different.
5. I interpret the passage as a hyperbolic statement, the kind that Jesus often made to drive his point home (Mat. 5:29-30). The point in Luke 22 was to show that persecution institutional violence were imminent, and the disciples would be as desperate for physical protection as a man that sells his clothes for a sword.
Concerning your use of Luke 11, Jesus no more endorsed a strong man arming his palace than a stronger man coming along and overcoming him. If you use Luke 11 as support for arming yourself, you would likewise be saying that the one who disarms you is also supported by this very same text, since both are set forth as possibilities.
“Peace in a man’s palace or home is the result of being armed, not disarmed.” I disagree. Peace in a man’s palace is the result of knowing Jesus Christ, for your peace can be taken away from you. If you think you’re secure in your armed home, you’re mistaken. I hope time and not experience will help you see this. The only secure thing we have in this life is Jesus.
“My memories of the last ware haunted my dreams for years. Military service, to be plain, includes includes the threat of every temporal evil: pain and death wh. is what we fear from sichness: isolation from those we love wh. is what we frear from exile: toil under arbitrary masters, injustice and humiliiation, wh. is what we fear from slavery: hunger, thirst, cold, and exposure wh. is what we fear from poverty. I’m not a pacifist. If it’s got to be, its got to be. But, the flesh is weak and shefish and I think death wd. be much better thank to live though another war.”
The Collected Letters of C.S. Lewis, Volume II.
We have made this a religious war. U.S. leaders have decided that God is on our side. HUH? How can we be so arrogant!? In my opinion, this war is dreadfully wrong. I think most would agree that it is sinful to bomb the abortion clinic and kill employees working there (they’re both murder). By the same token, why is it okay for the U.S. to kill because others are killing (Hussein)? We also need to remember that Iraq is NOT who attacked the U.S. The reason for beginning this war has changed so many times – trying to “justify” ourselves, telling lie after lie in an attempt to justify ourselves. Why is that wrong when we (as individuals) do it, but okay when our government does it? “Sadly, the evil force that drives the enemies in this war are not ready to disarm and live in peace. They believe their work is not done until we are all dead and all nations worship under the Islamic banner.” And how is the U.S. any different?? It seems the majority of Americans believe the entire world should be Christians. When I was a teenager, I remember preachers preaching against even being in the military due to the moral aspect of war. For some reason, this administration has convinced so many godly people that war is now okay. Someone mentioned Hussein being “against” Christians. That’s an incorrect statement. He had many in his command that were Christians. Iraq did NOT declare war on the U.S. “Doormats to the world”? Isn’t that what Jesus meant when he said turn the other cheek and go the second mile? “There are times when you can not turn the other cheek. There are times when you must fight. Otherwise you get killed.” AND SO?? Better to die and be with God than to live and be lost. There ARE things worse than death.
As for “radical Islamists,” they are no different than fundamentalists of any religion.
I have struggled and struggled with these ideas. I have finally made the decision that it would be a sin for me to participate in this war and most likely any war.
As for the song “Imagine” by John Lennon and the reference to “imagine there’s no heaven,” he also “imagines” all sorts of other things. I believe the idea is to make us think about where our loyalties lie. He also talks about us all living in peace.
Turn on the news. We are not car bombing our own people.
I also hope that all of you that support this war so much encourage your friends and family (and even yourself) to sign up and go! Just like we believe it’s the right thing to do to take our children to church services and encourage them because we believe it’s the right thing to do, it should be the same way with supporting the military and the war.
I would sign up if I possibly could.
Leland: why not? They’ve really lowered their expectations.
Because of my disability, which I will not go into.
“I had family over in Iraq and there are great things going on that the media doesn’t cover. School being built. Road’s amd bridges built. Education,English being taught, etc. Mosque’s bein built as well that were destroyed in bombings. Homes being built. Good thing going on.”
AND the rebuilding is going on because we (the U.S.) bombed and destroyed it all.
“AND the rebuilding is going on because we (the U.S.) bombed and destroyed it all.” It is going on because Iraqi on Iraqi violence as well.
comments 240-367. Just wanted the war debate to outdo the piano\banjo critical question debate.
368