I wish it were easier for churches to have a discussion about war. But it’s one of the most difficult issues to talk about.
For one thing, for many families this isn’t just a hypothetical discussion. They have sons and daughters who are in the military — some of whom are deployed overseas. And others are veterans who are proud of their military service.
There are two historic positions that are represented in almost all our churches.
A third “position” I won’t consider. It’s the one that seems dominant in places — the “I’m-proud-to-be-an-American-and-let’s-kick-some-Islamic-butt” position. It isn’t Christian, so I won’t discuss it.
One view is that Christians must never participate in or support war. This position has, among other arguments, these convictions:
(1) The teaching of Jesus encourages us, in light of the inbreaking shalom of God, to refrain from anything except love for our enemies. He insists that we not pay back “eye for eye and tooth for tooth” — the law of retaliation (Matthew 5:38-42). And he says: “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven” (Matthew 5:43-48).
(2) The death of Jesus points us to a way of nonviolence. He broke the cycle of violence through life-giving sacrifice.
(3) The Old Testament points to a time when swords will be beaten into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks (e.g., Isaiah 2:4). I remember when Hugo McCord came to our church in Missouri for a gospel meeting and taught the pacifist position. This was his text.
Pacifism has historically been an emphasis in leaders of the Restoration Movement — leaders who were convinced that others trust in horses and chariots but we trust in the name of the Lord our God. You’d perhaps be surprised to know that many of the influential Christian leaders whose books you read or sermons you’ve listened to are pacifists.
The other position is the just war position. This conviction is that in this fallen world, evil must be contained. With reluctance and with tears, we must hold back those who seek to oppress, even if force is involved — all the while longing for the peace-filled kingdom to come in its fullness.
What’s my position? That’s not significant here. (Perhaps I’ll drop a note if a discussion develops. You might be surprised.) What IS significant is that churches are going to have to have this discussion. We’re going to need to listen to each other without condemning. We’re going to have to study afresh and agree to disagree, since study alone (contrary to what I thought growing up) won’t solve this!
I served in the Army 15 years ago, and took great comfort from the passage where Paul or Jesus (excuse my ignorance) spoke to soldiers and several other occupations to be just and kind and fair, sort of implying that Jesus wants all people of all occupations. That’s a long way to the position that war is ok, but it made me feel better at the time. During Desert Storm (’90-91) it was much easier for people reticent about the military to support it, because it was over so quickly and with little difficulty.
Bud - thanks for your service. We’re all better for having you among us.
Mike - In addition to Bud’s point, that neither Jesus nor Paul (nor John the Baptist nor anyone else) called the soldiers they met to leave their line of work — good news for those of us who are glad to have both military and policemen around, among others, particularly to defend those who can’t or won’t defend themselves — I think its interesting to note that Jesus told his followers to get a sword just before he gave himself up as our sacrifice. That would be an odd thing for a pacifist to say.
Before this starts,(and it will start!)I just want to remind you that I will love you no matter what “side” you come down on. I will sit next to you on the pew Sunday. I will minister right along side you NO MATTER WHAT! You will still be my brother/sister! I refuse to let this be divisive!
I have to agree with all of the thoughts that have been shared up to this point. Both of my grandfathers served during WWII and I have friends and family currently serving during this war. I am thankful for thier service.
I agree with Mike, in saying that we need to have the discussion, but it is difficult because of so many different factors. I think one of the difficulties may be that we take the either/or position. The thought goes that if you hold the pacifist position, then you don’t support our troops, and for some that may be the case- just not for others.
If we can “hate sin, but love the sinners,” can’t we also hate the war, but love and support those who are fighting it?
[Please do not miss my point- I am NOT saying that are soldiers are sinning by fighting this war, I am pointing out that you can hold a pacifist position and still pray and support the troops. They certainly need it at this time!]
Thanks for having a relevant conversation.
“…if a discussion develops.” Ha!
Whether you can make a point from Jesus or Paul not telling soldiers to leave their posts is certainly a good question. It is interesting to note, however, that the early church basically prohibited Christians from serving in the military because of the church’s interpretation of the teachings of Jesus.
Origen had to write a letter defending the Christian teaching that Christians should not serve in the military and engage in war, because the non-Christian society was accusing Christians of being unpatriotic and not carrying their weight for the country. Origen basically says that Christians are doing lots more with their prayers.
This question haunts me…badly. I had swallowed Augustine and Niebuhr hook, line and sinker until I came to ACU for my first graduate class with Craig Churchill two years ago. Then in the course of writing my bibliographic essay, I met Stanley Hauerwas, William Willimon and John Howard Yoder. My ethical life is more complicated now, to say the least.
I cannot think of anyone I respect and honor more than someone who willingly volunteers to put oneself between an RPG and me day after day after day. I have the luxury of thinking deeply about these things, and studying them, because I live on ground irrigated with the blood of such men and women.
But loving and respecting the warrior for his selflessness does not absolve me of the responsibility to think soberly about whether or not it is fundamentally right to send him to die in my place to ensure that American remains a global hegemon and beacon of political freedom. To achieve its aims, the gospel of Christ requires neither political freedom, economic prosperity nor military hegemony. Surely that implies something about how I ought to think about all these things, and I can feel the pendulum starting to swing.
qb
I want to be a pacifist so bad. I mean completely, all the way, like Greg Boyd. So much of what he says makes sense. However, I find it hard to say that taking life is inherently evil since God commanded it at certain times in history.
I also want to jump on board with the troops and the emotional heroic tug the have on my heart, but I can’t buy completely into the violence necessary for some of them to perform their jobs.
Mike, I’m glad your having this discussion because I’ve bounced back and forth for so long. I need more perspective. Though, I realize my position on this will always be held in limbo.
Looking forward to this.
If ever a war seemed just, would it not be when Peter used a sword on Malchus and was rebuked by Jesus? Does my government have any more right to tell me to kill than it does to order me to rape or steal? If a Christian in a foreign country is a soldier, should we serve each other communion and then fire at each other? (I have agonized over this question for many years due to family, etc.) If complete pacifism, what about police? When an assassin shoots randomly at college students, does “tough love” say “I’m willing to be anathema” in order to kill the assassin and save multiple lives of students?
Bud said: “During Desert Storm (’90-91) it was much easier for people reticent about the military to support it, because it was over so quickly and with little difficulty.” That is so true.
This war, however, is a different story altogether. I never really thought much about war or what my stance is until this war. In the fall of 2001 I confess that I was all for going to war. Since then I have done some reading on pacifism and Jesus that has opened my eyes to things I had never thought of before.
This is not a black and white issue. And I still don’t have a firm stance. I do know that I am beyond ready for this war to be over. And I am so thankful for our men and women who are sacrificing so much to serve over there.
I apprecaite like Leland said making your post relevant once again.
I song that was big hit for your generation and comes from the Bible and found in Eccl 3:1-8. “There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven:
a time to be born and a time to die;
a time to plant and time to uproot,
a time to kill and a time to kill;
a time to tear and time to build,
a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
a time to scatter stone and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain,
a time to search and time to give up,
a time keep and a time to throw away,
a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be be silent and a time to be speak,
a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.”
There is a time for everything and a season for every activity under heaven!
I think the question gets easier if you fully embrace separation of church and state (which, by the way, was clearly the situation in the first century). The state has a role given by God. And the church has a role given by God. The goals of Christianity should not be pursued through violence. But the goals of the state might be. The governing authorities are appointed by God, and “they do not bear the sword for nothing.”
Would first cenutry Christians in Rome have understood Romans 13 as justifying why they should fight for Rome or why they should not fight when Rome authorities attacked them? (One read uses this to justify Christians at war; the other read justifies pacifism.)
I think the ultimate question that has to be asked in all of this is “Where does the ethic of love that Jesus taught lead us?” Does it lead us to take the lives of those assigned as our enemies for the protection of those being victimized? Or does it call us to find ways to nonviolently resist?
I’m not a pacifist. Pacifism implies no action. I would qualify myself more as a nonviolent resistor. Martin Luther King Jr. was not a pacifist, even though he was against racism and later the Vietnam War (as he talked about here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b80Bsw0UG-U ). However, men like him and Gandhi who were effected by Jesus’ ethic found other ways to resist and achieve change.
If I love my enemies, who does that leave for me to kill?
Prediction: Instrumental Music beats GWOT by 150 comments.
qb said:
Maybe I’m alone in this sentiment, but I don’t “respect and honor” a soldier any more than, say, a school teacher … a trash collector … a youth worker … or a pianist. Love them? Sure. But I don’t “respect and honor” them because they fight on America’s side.
For one, I’m not patriotic. I don’t get teary-eyed thinking about the origins of this nation, unless the tears are for the people we’ve stepped on to get to the top. Don’t be fooled — the list is long. Of course I’m happy I don’t face RPGs on a daily basis and can worship and talk the way that I choose — but those freedoms came at what price to how many people around the world? I’m not just talking about war, but Wal*Mart, the military-industrial complex, rampant consumerism, the Dow Jones, and a litany of other ways that we have developing nations in a choke-hold to our own gain. There isn’t a politician on the right or left or in the middle that will not, no matter what promises are made while campaigning, preserve this “way of life” we enjoy by any means necessary when he or she takes office. The oppression of the poor and raping of Creation will always be a reality in this nation, because it’s the only way to remain the top dog.
No, I’m glad my citizenship card reads “Kingdom of God.” God is the only just and fair ruler, and governments have no way of truly caring for the widow and the orphan. No nation on this earth can serve God’s purposes, not least the United States of America, which has chosen its master (hint: it ain’t God). This will surely anger some, but to me, this is not a country worth dying for. Sure, I am a pacifist, but I am also an idealist — and I simply don’t believe in the prevailing ideals of America.
I hope folks here don’t start using the rhetorical language of our politicians here to incite anger and hard feelings. I have seen at least one post doing that already.
For me the answer is, “I don’t know”. But I am OK with that. I spent 11 years in the military because I thought that by in-large we existed for a noble purpose. On an individual level I can say we did much good around the world and I never saw the evils we readily hear about today. I know it happens, but I doubt it happens any more than it does on our streets by civilians every day. I am brokenhearted to see innocent people slaughtered by oppressors. The call to lay down our lives for our friends seems pertinent here. But yet, I disagree with those who think that we need to grow stronger, richer and more prosperous to fulfill our calling. Our identity isn’t derived in power, money, possession, freedom, or even gender. We are defined by the presence of God in our lives and the Spirit dwelling in us. We get caught up here at home thinking things need to be fair and just and we need to be free from all cares. Thinking that contends that we must correct all inequality to please God is mistaken (to me). Being in low places on earth may lead to high places in eternity. I’m OK with America being less, I just can’t turn my back on the hurting in the world and I don’t believe that the evil ones in the world can be talked out of it. I believe God would have us destroy evil before standing by and letting it prey on the weak.
I should add this for clarification:
An expected response to what I wrote above is the canned, “Well, if you don’t like it here, go live somewhere else!” or “You benefit from the freedoms we have in America every day!” OK, OK.
As a follower of Jesus, I get no eternal joy from living in the country in which I live. Not one of us should. I have seen believers in Tanzania and the slums of Mexico that are brimming with life because of whom they follow. Our country of origin or earthly citizenship really doesn’t account for much in the eyes of those who follow the resurrected, revolutionary Savior. While I might like living here because it’s comfortable and relatively easy (I AM white, highly educated, and have no debt, of course), my joy in following Jesus is in no way connected to my official citizenship in the U.S.A.
That said, how could a believer kill for the ideals of a kingdom that is less than their ultimate allegiance? One would have to do some considerable compartmentalization, it seems.
I think I have to agree with Alan’s comment: I think the question gets easier if you fully embrace separation of church and state (which, by the way, was clearly the situation in the first century). The state has a role given by God. And the church has a role given by God. The goals of Christianity should not be pursued through violence. But the goals of the state might be. The governing authorities are appointed by God, and “they do not bear the sword for nothing.”
The major problem that leads to the disagreement on this issue revolves around a person’s view of church and state. For 16 centuries, western Christians have been living under the Christendom model where the church and state were so intertwined that in many regards they were indistinguishable. Unfortunately, the common worldview of American Christians today is based on the assumptions of Christendom, i.e. America is a Christian nation and the duty of the Christian is to be a nationalist and militarist because America is God’s country doing God’s will in the world.
Alan’s comments point out a more conservative and traditional understanding of the relationship between church and state. The fact that I am American does not mean I am Christian any more than the fact I am a Christian makes me an American. In effect we have dual citizenship, it just comes down to which citizenship we give greater weight to: the Lord or the nation.
Steve, I say that because it is a voluntary embodiment of someone “laying down his life for his friend;” and it is not simply a matter of these warriors taking up arms “for the American side.” Wherever warriors take up the sword voluntarily in defense of those who cannot defend themselves, whether in America or elsewhere, I am in their debt in some way and to some non-trivial extent. (”Greater love hath no man” cannot be neatly twisted to say, “all forms of love are equal.” Do I honor fallen policemyn more than I honor the guy who prints my children’s textbooks? You betcha. Should I apologize for that?)
qb’s post was not the post of an American hypernationalist/chauvinist, and it demeans the argument for you to suggest that it was. It was the post of someone trying to avoid facile polarizations.
qb
While considering your varied POV on this subject, here are some questions I mutter and mull over. Along with them, may I suggest another look at who God used to bring the gospel of Christ to the Gentiles.
Cornelius was a centurion, devout worshiper of God. This man of war was selected by God to be recipient of the Good News that then would be available to the whole world, expanding it’s territory to everyone who would believe and follow Jesus.
Cornelius and his household received the same exhibition of the presence of the Holy Spirit as did the 120 in the upper room on the day of Pentecost.
Sooo, how does Cornelius’ profession weigh in on this subject or does it at all? I don’t believe God moves without intention. So what is His intention in choosing Cornelius instead of another Gentile of a more pacific profession to open the doors of His Kingdom to all creation? How should we apply that intention and selection to a discussion of war?
Great topic Mike, and one we really do need to prayerfully consider.
In considering this war (not even considering wars of the past), I believe it’s being waged for reasons that are just. I fully realize that some don’t agree with me and will never agree with me on these points. BUT in my opinion, this war is being waged as a result of an evil faction of people in a violent religion taking it upon themselves to attack innocent people in this country and elsewhere. We aren’t at war to gain land, power or dominance. It’s about protecting the people of this nation and other nations.
I believe this is a good country. If I felt differently, I’d certainly be finding another place to raise my children. I don’t feel ashamed because so many of us flourish in this nation. I believe it’s a blessing from God and I’m never ashamed of something the Lord has blessed me with. I also believe I need to share the blessing with others. And I do as best I can with what I have to give.
With all that said, I’m too am very ready for this war to be over and for our country to live in peace again. Sadly, the evil force that drives the enemies in this war are not ready to disarm and live in peace. They believe their work is not done until we are all dead and all nations worship under the Islamic banner.
I don’t believe our nation is fighting a religious war. We are fighting to protect innocent lives. But don’t be fooled, the enemy is fully fighting a religious war with no regrets. And you can bet they don’t have discussions such as this.
Some books that might be helpful for this discussion (in addition to the material by Yoder and Haurwaus already mentioned):
Lee Camp, Mere Discipleship
Lee Griffith, The War on Terrorism and the Terror of God
Michael Nagler, Is There No Other Way?
Ron Sider, Nonviolence: The Invincible Weapon?
Michael Walzer, Just and Unjust Wars
Other helpful works you know of?
Can religious people fight a war and it not be a religious war? At what point does religion walk away from decisons about how we treat other people? Do we put on religion and go make disciples of nations and then take off religion to go and fight the nations?
eddy wrote: “If I love my enemies, who does that leave for me to kill?”
I cannot come up with a good answer to this. But, I can’t bring myself to believe in pacifism either.
How’s that for contributing a great deal to the discussion?
eddy,
I guess my question to you would be at what point would you turn your head an ignore the evil attacking innocent people. Is not defending and protecting the innocent OK?
I recommend, Elias Chacour’s book, Blood Brothers. http://www.amazon.com/Blood-Brothers-exp-Elias-Chacour/dp/0800793218/ref=pd_sim_b
It is a tremendous book on restoring human dignity, peacemaking & reconcilation, written by a Palestinian Christian
Snapshot, I really, really think there is a HUGE difference between pacifism and nonviolent resistance. A world of difference.
Walter Wink: Jesus and Nonviolence, a Third Way.
Get it. Read it.
Or, read the book this little pamphlet comes from: The Powers That Be.
Oh, and I read about this old church in North Africa (Augustine, anyone?) that would deny communion to anyone who served on a jury that sentenced a man to death. Interesting, no?
I would recommend Greg Boyd’s book, “The Myth of a Christian Nation”. He dives into this subject in detail.
http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Christian-Nation-Political-Destroying/dp/0310267307
I would also point out for Kathy’s benefit (i. e., a chance to “hooray” and gloat a bit) that a Padres pitcher was unanimously selected to receive the NL’s Cy Young award. A nice consolation prize for the egg the Rockies laid in the World Series.
So, props to the Pads.
qb
GKB,
Of course instrumental music is much more important than war.
Another great book for this discussion: The Bible.
YES! and thanks, qb
_____________________________
NEW YORK (Reuters) - San Diego Padres right-hander Jake Peavy was the unanimous winner of the National League Cy Young Award on Thursday as top pitcher.
_____________________________
Way to go Jake!
Yay for the Padres and my beautiful San Diego too!
Song for the discussion:
Imagine by John Lennon
The Wall by Pink Flyod
Love, Love, Love, by The Beattles
Give Peace a Change by John Lennon & The Beattles
Cry by James Blunt
No Bravery by James Blunt
What other songs?
Shane Claiborn’s “Irresistable Revolution” is a great book which addressed this at points. I think it is there that I read about sending Christians “bearing Bibles” rather than guns, etc. The Walter Wink suggestion is also good. One of my all time faves is Jim Wallis’ “The Call to Conversion.”
This is not an easy question and way too many folks glibly answer rather than prayerfully seek Him who is The Answer even to unanswerable questions like this one! I struggle w/ being a Christian in America because I don’t believe our government is anything close to ideal and we make our decisions from a position of power w/ the intent of whatever benefits us. For example, so much of our “benevolence” is self-serving. But it is truly a blessing to live in this country. I love my country, I love those who serve, but I’m not, in the immortal words, “Proud to be an American.” If we are serious about His kingdom coming on earth as it is in heaven, we must take this issuer seriously and not fall into black/white, either/or thinking.
I support the war.
Just for the record, I’m not sure where I stand on this war. But, as a librarian answering a call for works on the subject, I thought I’d throw in The Weight of Glory by C.S. Lewis. There is a section defending the “just-war” position. It’s been around awhile, of course, so I’m glad to see some of these newer titles surfacing as well! More for the reading list and more to pray about.
Theologically, I’m a pacifist. But psychologically, I know myself: If someone was hurting my family I’d become violent. So I rarely discuss this issue because I feel screwed up inside.
Imagine - “Imagine there’s no heaven”
no thanks. The first line of the song makes it very depressing.
Kyle,
Come on…Most wars including this war are faught over religions. Imagine their’s no Jehod. No Crusades. I think it was just Lennon’s dream imagine what life could be if we loved one another. No War.
Albert Einstien did say that after WWWIII the next war would be faught with sticks and stones.
Crusades have been way overplayed in their religious motivation. The Europeans decided to go to war to protect their land. They just knew that they needed the church to help motivate the people to do it.
Also, I echo what was said earlier. The Old Testament has many accounts of God directing his people to war (with little mercy in some cases). We would not stand for what God directed the nation of Israel to do. I’m not a big proponent of war, but I’ll take a war over the absence of eternity with God any day. World peace is not the most sacred thing. Eternal peace is.
I am not a pacifist, if that means avoid violence at any cost, If I or my loved ones were threatened I would fight, and yes even kill if it were called for. That said if I had a difference with a neighbor? and took my gun in hand and went to his domain, and he drew down on me and fired at me, then I shot and killed him, would that be self defence? I don’t see how it could be anything but murder. This war we are engulfed in started in just that way as I see it, we invaded their domain, then when they shot back we kill them and call it self defence. I call it instigated murder.
Alan had the right distinction between what the state does and what we do in the kingdom. Government can help us in not letting evil get the complete control of everything.
I can love my enemies, pray for them but also must protect my family from a violent attack and sometimes it may involve a violent defense. Some of these daily events in life , we have to use some common sense.
My own opinion, each of these dsicussions can be relevant. The one on instrumental music was very good. This one is good and they all make us think. We can spend a few minutes in these discussions and then be on our way with many hours of ministry , compassion , study and teaching.
Metallica’s song ONE.
If you are a disciple of Jesus, how on earth could you become a soldier who is trained to harm/kill another? Most likely the one that you harm/kill will be innocent b/c they had nothing at all to do with the policies that put them there. Jesus laid down his life in the face of evil, and some want to argue that WE should physically fight that same evil? Jesus taught that his followers do not defend themselves. He showed us the ultimate example of that, yet so many want to justify causing the physical harm of another. Rather unbelievable.
Toby Keith - Courtesy of the Red, White and Blue
Lee Greenwood - God Bless The USA
I don’t think there’s any problem with being pro-America. I don’t idolize this country and I am ready for our troops to return as much as anyone else. We are blessed that we are in a country where we are free. For the Islamic terrorists to try to kill us because we are happy is not cool. If we roll over and let them see we’re not going to do anything about it, they’ll blow up stuff everyday. My 2 cents.
If we teach disciples in the United States that God accepts participation in the “sword wielding” part of the military, can we teach the same things to Christians in Argentina and Great Britain? (Remember the Falklands war?) Should we teach the same to brethren in Cuba? Venezuela? China? Vietnam? etc. In our universal kingdom,whatever spiritual principles can’t be taught in the whole world, shouldn’t be taught in this country!
Martin, I refer back to my questions regarding Cornelius, the centurion. suggesting you ask your questions through that filter.
I think we can support the troops and not support the war.
I think it is time to come home.
It is time to spend money on the American people who appreciate it. Who need it.
Recently the president denied health care to children in America and is spending so much money on the war.
People are still trying to rebuild on the gulf coast after Katrina and Rita. He is keeps spending on Billon on War instead of helping Americans.
I think it is time to spend money on Americans who need it and who will apprecaite it.
The Iraqi’s I believe won’t.
Once we get out if it is early or not.
Won’t apprecate all the money that we have spent on them.
They will elect another Sudom Husain because that is what they want.
They will teach and bread hate because that is what Islam is about.
You didn’t see any clerics after 9/11 saying “that isn’t what we are about. We are about love. Grace. Mercy.” Islam isn’t a peaceful religion. I preached in prison and the most violent inmates were converting to Islam because you didn’t have to change. It isn’t Islam exstemists. It is the religion. We would have waisted all this time and effort and most of all money that we could have spent on our own people doing great things for OUR OWN COUNTRY AND FUTURE.
We tend to forget that real freedom comes from within. The people didn’t say, “We’ve had enough of you Sadam and cause a revolution within the county to cause freedom from within like AMERICA.” America fought for our freedom. We wanted it. They don’t. And we can’t force freedom on other countries no matter how hard we try. It won’t work.
Imagine what we could have done with $9 trillon on our country that He has spent on this war. Imagine the good. Imagine education. Imagine health care for all children or people. Just imagine the good. Homeless. Feeding our own hungry.
yeah, Big Mike, if we weren’t so damn happy in this country, they’d leave us alone. It’s all because we’re happy.
Theologically, I fall in the “Just War” category. Whether or not this particular war is just, well, that’s another issue.
That being said, I can certainly respect people who feel that the way of the Christian should be the way of pacifism.
What I DON’T respect is the idea of, “you can’t be a Christian and think it’s okay to be a soldier.”
There are just too many scriptural arguments in favor of war to make that position acceptable.
The current war does not pass muster on any of the “just war” tests. It is based on lies and false information. It must end. Brian Mclaren’s “unpublished speech” (that President Bush never made) that didn’t make it to his latest book should be required reading by every church. Sorry, how anyone could support this war is beyond me. When the dimension of faith in Jesus is added in, there is nothing more to say.
Toby Keith - “Love Me if You Can”
I’ll bet this post doesn’t get a 100 comments.
Whichever way you believe, it seems acapella music trumps men and women dying.
Big Mike Lewis: the reason al Qaeda are angry at us has nothing to do with our democracy or freedoms or economy; instead, it is because of our foreign policy in the Middle East (those oil producing countries). Check out Michael Sheuer’s book, “Imperial Hubris.”
Kathy: About Cornelius. Perhaps he, like all of us, is a work in progress. All those who received God’s spirit that day probably had some things that needed working on, things that weren’t going to be fixed in one day. Maybe Cornelius’ occupation was a battle for another day (get it, “battle”). But that is beside the point: if Cornelius harmed another person with his sword, then he disobeyed much of the Sermon on the Mount.
I am called to die with Jesus and rise into risen Christ - baptism (Romans 6). But I spend most of my life trying to keep Rex alive rather than letting Rex die so that Christ can live in Rex? Perhaps if I could ever live my baptismal commitment out in reality maybe then I would not struggle so much with trying to be a peacemaker like Jesus.
I say I am a pacifist but who knows, maybe I am just a pacifist wannabe. After all, there are a lot of other things I claim to be based upon faith conviction and I struggle with those issues too.
Oh yeah… The line of reasoning that war is justified when it is used to bring about justice for oppressed people is REDICULOUS. Jesus was all about justice and he refused to wage war as he wept over Jerusalem, knowing the fate that would come upon Jerusalem.
Rex
Ithaca Church of Christ
Ithaca, NY
Pacifists can be living, breathing, ironic paradoxes. Their arguments are often so very bellicose as they fight tooth and nail for their love of pacifism. Strange to say the least.
LJ, forgive me for saying so, but your latest post here is one of the reasons we *can’t* have fruitful, mutually profitable discussions about war in the church.
“Lies…There is nothing more to say?”
Mercy. And we wonder why people find us smug and dogmatic…
qb
Every time a Christian buys a Toby Keith CD, Jesus cries a little.
Every time that horrid “Courtesy of the Red, White and Blue” song comes on, Jesus cries a lot.
How anyone claiming to be a follower of Jesus could resonate with ANYTHING Toby Keith says in that song is way beyond me.
I’ve said it before on this blog and I’ll say it again….the unsaved are watching how we respond to one another. Sadly many in this forum get ugly and arrogant when they feel their position is being tested or simply disagreed with.
Let’s be real careful in what we would like to deem required reading in churches.
This word is not our home and nether is this country. The USA is our host and we should treat it as if we were in someone’s home in a foreign country doing missions. If we do not approve of our host’s activities we should find a host that we approve of, shaking our sandals as we leave.
Steve, you call yourself an American?! The “no debt” thing really makes me wonder…
Mike, there are some problems with your initial premise. Namely, (1)that there are only two or three views on this topic and (2)that people will do this without condemning each other. There were even dissenting if not condemning comments on your 99 Balloons post (though they did not necessarily stay). I hardly think it is likely there won’t be any for this one- no matter how innocuous this topic may be.
“Blessed are the peacemakers.”
“My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my followers would fight for me.”
That seems pretty clear to me, but I can only speak for myself.
If I submit to the argument “Christians should not defend themselves” will you address defending others?
Can a Christian be a police officer?
Some value peace and the lives of others enough to give their life or even kill for it if necessary. That being said, some wars are just even as a police officer must harm someone to protect someone innocent on occasion.
GKB,
Have you heard “Love Me if You Can?” Good pacifist writing.
Like I said, I can only speak for one Christian: me.
However, it would be nice if we had *one* historical example of an early Christian martyr who took up arms to defend him or herself against the state or who volunteered to defend the secular needs of a civil government.
That would clear things up considerably.
War is horrible, and peace is beautiful. But, I wouldn’t hesitate to inflict violence on a person who was harming my wife. There is no perfect philosophy of war. As is life and religion.
ME,
“Blessed are the peacemakers” is a sentiment with which I wholeheartedly agree.
But we should be careful in our translation of John 18:36. The phrase - “My kingship is not of this world” - does not carry the meaning normally ascribed to it. It should be translated into English as “My kingship is not of this age.”
It is based on an underlying Hebrew expression ‘olam-ha-zeh, olam-he-bah’ -the ‘present age’ contrasted with the ‘age to come.’ Jesus was saying that his kingdom was “not yet.”
The meaning of the ending of the verse then follows naturally “but now is my kingdom not from hence.” [ASV] See also John 8:23 and 12:31.
John also used the word “world” when differentiating between those who are “adamic” or “earthy” and those who are from the Father. “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world…(John 2:16-17)
So, all I am saying is that care must be taken when using John 18:36 to justify a blanket anti-war stance. Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think the USA has ever been faced with the threat of invasion in modern times. I’m not referring to acts of terrorism but to an invasion by a foreign army.
There are many Australians alive today who experienced the very real threat of invasion by the Japanese during WW2. If the USA had not come to our aid, we would have been finished. So, perhaps many of us here down-under may not be able to adopt such black and white positions regarding war.
I would be interested to hear thoughts on this.
Vynette,
No we WOULD NOT have been finished had Japan (or any other government) attacked us. At worst, they would have put us all to death. But that still would not have finished us because our life is victorious in Christ. The resurrection is our promise of hope. It is that promise that has been the strength of countless martyrs. If we would ever figure that out, we would have no reason to fight sinc eit seems that most of our war making is about preserving our life — interestingly, preserving something we supposedly gave up in baptism.
It is no wonder the western world no longer believe the Christian story. Too many Christians confess that Jesus Christ is the risen Lord and Savior but in practice live as though a government of this world is the lord and savrior. How can the rest of the world believe in Jesus when we who claim such belief really don’t believe?
Rex
Ithaca Church of Christ
Ithaca, NY
A tiny detail that we’re all forgetting here is that on the Wal-Mart version of my “Unleashed album” — which featured “Courtesy of the Red, White & Blue (The Angry American)” — the word “ass” was bleeped out of the phrase, “We’ll put a boot in your ass, it’s the American way.”
OK, now back to your conversation on which album cover my hair looks best. (My vote’s definitely for my self-titled album in 1993)
WARNING… this conversation just hit the breaking point…
A fictitious name was used. Expect the “conversation” to go downhill from here.
Has anyone not watched the documentary “The War” and not drawn the conclusion that war is justifiable if not mandated by the Bible at times? 2/3 of the European Jews starved to death, tortured, and mercilessly killed at the hand of the Nazis. American soldiers who freed the German death camps… when they witnessed this they began to understand the evil they were fighting. The German citizens who sat idly by and did nothing while atrocities were being committed–they’ll have to answer to God, too.
I think the post on Obadiah applies here.
War is ugly. Sometimes war is right. I think the US should have helped in Darfur. Jesus teaching about loving enemies doesn’t negate all the examples in OT of God telling those to have courage, don’t be afraid, and to kill enemies when it applies. The problem is knowing when it applies. I’m so glad I know when it does. (sarcasm)
I would like to see someone answer Keith’s question. What do you think? Can that police officer who will willingly put himself between you and a bullet or take a life to save one of your family be a Christian? According to some of the elite here I guess not.
What about those veterans you worship with? Some of who bear the scars that were inflicted during their youth? Rex, perhaps you should enlighten them on why their service was misguided and sinful.
ME, I think you should notify the Searcy police that you do not wish for your home or family to be defended in the event you are threatened. Someone might get hurt. Unless of course it’s a pagan officer.
I think the problem here is that many of you are trying to use reason to solve this. “Shouldn’t we defend our country?” “Shouldn’t I fight to save my life or the life of a loved one?”
When did REASON enter this religion? Come on, you believe that the earth was created in 6 days; that a giant fish swallowed a man and he lived for 3 days in the fish’s stomach; that axe-heads can float; and that God could have sent 10000 angels to save his son, but he didn’t. You also believe that dead people were raised to life. These are completely unreasonable things to believe in.
So why are you trying to use reason concerning war. (Aren’t you supposed to walk by faith, not sight–or reason?)
Jesus did not condone self-defense even when it came to saving his own life. He never taught anything about a just war. Instead, he taught that you turn the other cheek. Why can’t Christians accept this as part of their faith?
Let’s don’t forget 9-11…we did not attack them, just as we did not attack Japan Dec 7, 1941. God has given authority to rulers, even though they may not be Christians…so our government can go to war. In our wonderful nation we have the opportunity to serve or not serve in the military, depending on conscience. Many countries do not give citizens that option. For those who choose to serve, thank you. For those who chose not to serve, remember you have this freedom of choice because of those who are serving or have served in the past.
gt,
That’s called a tautology.
You are assuming that I think only bad people (pagans) can be police officers and I don’t. I admire police officers just as I admire firefighters and social workers.
As a said, I can only speak for myself and it would nice to have *one* example of an early Christian using violence for self-defense.
We have “argued from silence” on lesser things than war over the years.
Alongside ME, and Rex, I find myself asking questions about the dynamic tension between ethical principle and pragmatism. There is a part of me that questions why survival/security is a good to be defended by Christians when the cross frames our deepest understanding of the divine person. Sacrificing our ecclesial identity as peacemakers should strike us as a drastic compromise. At the same time, my life has never been threatened. Foreign tanks have never rolled down the streets of my nation. It is only then that my principles can be tested. But none of those questions seem very pertinent in light of the Iraq war. Are we fighting for freedom? To overturn a tyranny that we find acceptable on the basis of our fervent commitment to human rights? Have we successfully localized the axis of evil to that nation where billions of dollars are being funneled? I’ll leave that commentary to more qualified voices (ME).
The sad reaction of most Christians is a lot like a baptist church that I used to live down the street from. It was a beautiful old building with a cross on top of it. A few days after 9/11, on top of the cross, waving proudly, was the American flag…basically, the American flag found its ‘rightful position’ above the cross in the minds of many people.
I’m sorry, I just can’t go there, to a place that says that our primary citizenship is the USA rather than in the Kingdom of God. Yes, there are times when we must DEFEND ourselves as a nation (against Hitler and Japan in WWII comes to mind); but most wars, including the present one, fall into the category of an unjust and immoral war.
Steve -
WOULD you be willing to leave this country, giving up your debt-free lifestyle, to live in a country in whose policies you do believe? There are so many people who disapprove of America’s values and policies, yet few seem to be moving on to countries that suit them more.
It is funny how you think you know the people around you and that you all share the same life views until an issue such as this comes along. I am personally disturbed by the number of people I see here who seem to argue for a pacifist stance. I am not upset with you if you feel that way, just surprised. I guess I just assumed that most of my brothers and sisters were supportive of this country, our soldiers, and our veterans. I am proud to be an American and I have no problem with Greenwood’s “God Bless The USA”. I think the war we are fighting right now is bigger than Iraq, Iran, and Afgahnistan. We as free Christians in the west are being viciously pursued by an enemy who hates our freedom, hates our religion, and hates our God. They will just laugh at our pacifism and continue to kill when they can. Wake up people!
I AGREE WITH THIS POSTER: “War is ugly. Sometimes war is right. I think the US should have helped in Darfur. Jesus teaching about loving enemies doesn’t negate all the examples in OT of God telling those to have courage, don’t be afraid, and to kill enemies when it applies. The problem is knowing when it applies…”
Any of you who think that pacifism is your way…I think you would all (and I mean ALL) defend your wife or your kids against a rapist or murderer if put in that position and I pray none of us ever is. It is so easy to sit in lofty positions and intellectually judge what is right when there are no personal and immediate consequences. But this is not about theory…
Sorry, qb, if I offended you–not my intention. Mike asked about “this” war. We now know that the best National Intelligence Estimates at the time revealed little danger from the suspected WMD. Ask then Sec of State Colin Powell how he feels about being misled before his speech to the UN. Let’s also talk about the “supposed” link between Al Qaeda and Saddam. . .plenty of misleading, dishonest conversation leading up to and during this needless conflict.
If we are going to talk about something as serious as this war, its impact on the entire region and on our standing in the international community, if we are really going to discuss it, then we have to move beyond theoretical to the historic reality of the matter. If that won’t stand up to the Sunday School test of politeness, then maybe we need to create other venues for conversation. Sort of like talkiing about racism in a Birmingham, AL white Sunday School class in 1955.
I do know our talk needs to transcend the partisan political dimension of things. But we have a horrible, national reality going on and people of faith should rally together for change ASAP.
The military as a policeman is a good analogy. I’d really like to see a totally unbiased detailed report that invading Iraq was a reasonable, defensive move by the U.S. I think that would help our younger generation when this happens again.
When Iran gets the bomb you will be glad we are on both sides of them.
Can you guys just get beyond your personal politics for a bit and look at the bigger picture? Do you really think Sadaam was not an enemy of Christians and of the US? Do you really think there are not groups of folks in Iraq who, if given the opportunity, would love to kill us? Do you really think we are the evil ones here? Go over there and walk down the street and talk about Jesus the Messiah and see how long you last. It is not just politics…they hate us and our religion and they are the ones who have declared war on us, not the other way around. If you think pacifism is the way to fix this, then go over there are start converting them, but you won’t last long because they are NOT pacifists.
“If you think pacifism is the way to fix this”
I think that their will is a disconnect in this dialogue when the presumption is that pacifism’s tenets are a remedy for ‘fixing’ anything. A pacifist is ready to loose, and ready to die. This strategy will probably not be ‘effective’. Non-violent, non-retaliatory commitments are not adopted to create a prescribed social effect, or to secure already possessed social goods. If you were to tell John Howard Yoder that a bunch of Islamics, who hate his religion, are coming to kill him, I don’t think his immediate response would be: “Well, once they recognize my fearless resolve, they will quickly be converted”. Jesus’ cross was not socially effective. Rome kept on dominating. Israel remained in exile. The godless remained in power. The empty tomb secured no ample defense for the innocent.
Those in the military have no voice in deciding whether the wars they must engage in are just or not. Once you’re in, you must go and fight no matter what you think. The decision as to whether the fighting is “just” or not is out of your hand. You have placed yourself under the power of those who do not share your King or His priorities. Rex, I appreciate what you’ve said on this issue.
What is so interesting is that many of the people on this board and others can’t wait to type in a scathing denouncment of why Christians cannot support this war…but when a Democrat is in the White House, you don’t hear a peep out of them. Oh, sure, you may hear a whimper out of them but nothing like when a Republican goes to war.
I also find it interesting that many of these people pull things from scripture that are not there, such as that we are to be doormats to the world.
Those who are enemies of Christianity are our enemies. Darkness and light, hot and cold, oil and water…GOOD and EVIL…one will dominate the other. Radical Islam seeks to dominate and destroy Chrisianity. I guess I don’t really care what “John Howard Yoder” or any other so-called expert thinks. I will say again I am proud of our soldiers and our veterans and I say thank you for defending this great nation. And when the things I hold dear and important are threatened, I will defend them if I can. You may say in some abstract intellectual way that you won’t but if it comes up, I am betting you will.
Why was King David not allowed to build the temple? What does prayer, “sword of the spirit”, and persecuted mean? Do we expect to defeat radical islamists by seeing who can out-shoot each other? What about seeing if we can outlove them? (Not per John Lennon song but per cross of Jesus) I do not buy into “America, love it or leave it”–I see America as a mission field that needs to walk by faith not by sight. Worded another way, “We do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickeness in the heavenly places.”
Our response to this question depends greatly on two questions: (1) Who do we consider our real defender. The arm of flesh of our military? Or, our Creator? (2) With what do we identify most? The Kingdom of God? Or, our earthly nations?
“You have placed yourself under the power of those who do not share your King or His priorities.”
So are you saying that anyone who does not share your pacifist stance is not under King Jesus? Are you saying that your interpretation of His priorities is unquestionably right? Are you saying then, that only pacifists can go to heaven? That sounds suspiciously like CoC rhetoric to me…the old “my way is the only way” view.
You are entitled to your opinion just like everyone else, but what you are not entitled to do is bind that opinion on others or suppose that your opinion is automatically in line with the King’s. None of us has a very good handle on that I don’t think.
Shepherdguy,
If I am a Cuban Christian, a Venezuelan Christian or a Chinese Chrisitan, should I kill for my government?
“Do we expect to defeat radical islamists by seeing who can out-shoot each other? What about seeing if we can outlove them?”
Love ‘em all you want to and as you lay dying on the ground with a bullet hole or a piece of shrapnel in your gut, you can say “Father forgive them” but you know what? He won’t because they do not acknowledge him as God and they don’t believe in the Christ. You loved them, they killed you, and now they are coming to kill your family. And now is the world a better place? How is the cause of Christianity advanced? I don’t get it. When they take over the free world and persecution becomes commonplace, how will that advance the cause of Christianity? We may be better Christans on a personal level because of persecution but our efforts to evanglize the world will cease because we will be using all of our energy to stand against an enemy at our doorstep, an enemy that we should have fought against long ago.
How about trusting God and His weapons?
I’m still waiting for an answer as to whether all this applies to Cuban, Chinese and Venezuelan Christians or just Americans.
I’ve talked to the young people about the war issue. And before we begin discussing we make it real by saying none of us are actually faced with the types of decisions our soldiers are faced with. So I have encouraged them to read and reread the words of Jesus and the other New Testament writers.
So my point in this post is to question why we all seem to talk about what we’d do if… I think our emphasis needs to be in allowing God through his word and Spirit to transform our hearts. We should trust him to do that. As we allow him reign over our lives and we soak up his word won’t he change us? Am I off here? As we allow God to place us in the proper mindset about these issues then we’ll be better prepared to respond from a position under God’s control and not one governed by our flesh and the baggage it brings.
Just some thoughts. I’m trusting God to guide me in this and other issues. To depend on him to change my heart. Because when I enter into these discussions, though much insight is offered, I still find myself in a circle of confusion.
Thanks everyone.
Gardner Hall, I will reply to your question today, but right now I have to go to work. Sorry…wish I could stay here and discuss but I cannot right now.
I have known of devout Christians who work as police officers. Also , those who are attorneys for the state and fight against crime.
Did Cornelius have to resign as a soldier ? Did the jailer have to find a new job ?
One of the reasons we are having this free discussion, from our computers that we have freely purchased is because of those who paid the ultimate price with their lives. So many today serve to defend and protect us. And are willing to lay down their lives so we can live with freedom.
Looks like this blog will soon hit the 100 level. Good discussion.
Did the Christians respond to the stoning of Stephen by attacking his attackers or by preaching the word? If we viewed radical islamists from old revival vantage point, we’d understand they are not the enemy but have been taken hotage by the enemy–you don’t defeat the real enemy (the lion who walks about seeking whom he may devour)by anything other than the cross and resurrection.
I’m all for soldiers and policemen serving in their God-given capacities. Yes, the State is given the power to wield the sword.
But what I can’t stand is when Christians and the State become conflated, or think they have any common interests, or when “enemies of the State” become confused with “enemies of Christianity.” I place the blame for this thinking squarely on old Connie (c. 313) and that other guy who came later, who somehow thought it would serve their political ends to rope the church into things.
When did it become okay for Christians to set the world agenda, instead of living those “small” metaphors of salt, light, leaven, mustard seeds, etc.?
LJ, it’s not about qb being “offended.”
The blog post that started this whole thing off began with a lament about how “we can’t talk [constructively] about war in our churches.” I’m just observing that Exhibit A in “why we can’t talk about war” is the attitude expressed by, “it’s a pack of lies” and “there’s nothing more to be said about it,” the former being a means of dehumanizing one’s opposition, the latter being nothing more than an attempt to intimidate and silence one’s opposition.
As assigned by one of our little community here, I went back last evening and re-read “Why I am not a Pacifist” by C. S. Lewis. Whatever one may think of his conclusions, what was remarkable to me was how generous of spirit Lewis was toward those with whom he disagreed even when he was vigorously contesting the rational merits of their arguments. He did not shout them down; he did not try to silence them; and he did not go out of his way to dehumanize them as purveyors of lies. He simply tried to persuade them, with no polemical shortcuts. That speech-transcript is a beautiful model of precisely the kind of discourse that is missing in the church, sadly evidenced by much of what is being said here.
qb
It is not likely that an objective discussion on these matters will occur among C of C. For many years now the church has been subservient to the policies of conservative politics. This marriage has created an emotional support that blinds reason and even biblical principles. Members expect the message from the pulpit to be a religio-political one that advocates only conservative political issues. It would be dangerous for a preacher to speak otherwise. So the preachers, for the most part, have accommodated themselves “to be like people, like priest” (Hosea 4:9). Even when there are obvious and egregious acts of spiritual deviation among the conservatives, there is not enough moral courage to speak against it. To oppose the Iraq war is to hurt the national party, and this must not be done. Political support for corporate welfare and war efforts (even if the war is in the wrong country) trumps anything biblical or spiritial principles. Thus, the real mission of the church in the world is obscured in the midst of this wave of nationalism and support for a particular political agenda.
After Christ died, did his persecutors reform? They went to kill his followers, and did so, was the cause advanced?
1 Peter 2.21 “For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. 22 He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips. 23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly.”
That Jesus was a doormat.
That’s right Mark. And when Jesus cleared the temple, he was a doormat. When Paul invoked his Roman Citizenship he was a doormat.
Also, every circumstance we could possible face is found in the Bible, right?
I think GKB has a great point in that we confuse the enemy of the state with the enemy of our religion (if I read him right).
Just some thoughts here.
Using prejoritive language only helps to drive the wedge of polarization.
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There is a big difference between whether or not it is all right to support and participate in political violence (war) in support of a secular government and whether or not it is all right to defend one’s an individual from harm. They are two different ethical issues and to contract them into one issue will not help solve the ethical dilema of either issue.
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It is aruable as to whether wars, including WW II, are waged in the name of justice or because the selfish political interests of those waging war. When the Nazi’s began to persecute and murder European Jews, why did the United States refuse to take action? Why did the U.S. wait until it was attacked? Perhaps the American involvement in WW II was not as much about justice for the oppressed as some would like to believe.
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We can all cite one proof-text after another to support are already drawn conclusions and round and round we will go while gaining nothing. Our passages of scripture must all be interpreted within the story of scripture and its theological/historical trajectory. The more I understood this story its redemptive goal, the harder it became for me to justify the use and support of violence for the preservation/defense/advancement of the secular political nations. Though my pacifist leanings could be wrong, it would seem to be awful hard for any Christian to reconcile “just violence” with the idea that we are called to be new creations in Christ who embody the new world of God’s in-breaking kingdom.
And when the things I hold dear and important are threatened, I will defend them
I would think that the things we should hold dear as Christians cannot be threatened. Just out of curiosity, what is your opinion of the early Christian martyrs, particularly Jesus’ disciples? You know, the ones who actually heard him speak? Were they misguided? Rebellious for not fighting? Or just stupid? ???
When they take over the free world and persecution becomes commonplace, how will that advance the cause of Christianity?
Seems it was pretty commonplace back then, and we’re still here.