To see my buddy Richard’s psychological insights into this blog, scoot over here.
Here’s a taste:
My interest in this case was piqued when I saw a blog post blow up on my friend (and preacher) Mike Cope’s blog. In the post Mike writes about the progressive/conservative split about our a cappella tradition. And the post (as other posts before it on this topic) proceeds to blow up with over 250+ comments.
For a psychologist the comments to this and related posts are rich in data. Many of you might be interested in reading them out of anthropological curiosity. As I read the comments my overwhelming response was the degree of defensiveness in the conversation. Doctrinal positions were locked in and immovable. Reason is absent and emotions run hot.
Lots of interesting stuff on that blog if you haven’t checked it out before. Take time to look through the posts on “theology and evolutionary psychology” while you’re there (linked in the right-hand column).
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I’ve been hearing on the news that we will have $4/gallon gas by the summer of ‘08, based on the current price of oil that will be reflected months later at the pump. So we have that to look forward to.
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Check out the poem “Gate C22″ here. (Thanks, Steve P., for the link.)
Richard is a deep thinker, and maybe I’m not as dense as I once thought. My take for years has been that most elderly members of the cofc will never change their core ideas (music choices, womens role in ministry, etc.)because change would indicate they have been wrong, and then their salvation is in jeopardy because you must be “right” to be saved. Relationship is very much secondary to “being right”. Thanks Mike.
My comments were non-biased cool and collected, I don’t no what you were looking at! My absence of reason comments are not intentionally absent of reason, just born that way you no.
That’s why I bought a bike! I don’t wanna drive if it’s make me go broke!
Yikes, I just realized that that sentence is grammatically incorrect!
“if it’ll make me go broke”***
KentF: “My take for years has been that most elderly members of the cofc will never change their core ideas (music choices, womens role in ministry, etc.)because change would indicate they have been wrong…”
Nonsense, if I may be so bold and in your face about this broad brush. If we of the CofC have not been led properly in the Word, have not been taught gentle love when approaching change then look to the messengers of change. There is a large number of our “elderly members” that have not only embraced many of these changes, but have ached for them, only to have all avenues of expression shut down on us many time by reason(sic) of gender. Take a look at some of the larger CofC congregations and see if you can maintain your position that the “elderly” must die off in order for the changes to come about. May I suggest that is the height of snobbery. May the youth of your elderly years treat you with more love and gentleness. IIRC Titus and Timothy address the elderly to mentor the younger, but it seems the younger would cut out all contact with the older members of their congregations and with that go headlong into change for change’s sake. Nurture your senior members and you will find you can benefit from their wisdom and years of life. Like Proverbs says, silver hair is to be respected, not put down.
It sometimes is difficult to maintain our love of this change in the face of snide remarks, harsh criticism, and superiority attitudes toward those that choose to stay bound by the chains of “we’ve always done it this way.” These need gentle teaching, encouragement and confirmation and acceptance of their place in the new churches.
Not all senior citizen members are noisy, prickly ones as I am.
And you have to have a very thick skin to be an advocate of change with the senior MEN of many congregations. Truly they are the ones that do not want to give up their control. Power continues to be the headiest of wines and few are willing to allow that control to be challenged. Hopefully and one day they will realize that sharing is not losing.
In the meantime, I’d really appreciate it if some here wouldn’t make it so obvious they are impatiently waiting my death so they can barrel on with their agenda. [btw-I'm one of many that made loud and insistent noise about the way women and some races were being treated, challenging status quo. I took some verbal beatings for that position as a senior single woman, but it was worth it.]
The absence of reason and heartfelt responses are a part of anthropology. The winner is usually powerful and less intellectual philosophically (he could kick your ass in the octagon). Therefore the less intellectual craft the dogma and write the history. CONSTANTINE the lesser. Chuck Lidell would knock him out.
The thanatecentric (death centered) belief system may be held by denominations, but it is not a traditional belief of the Lords’ Church. According to Eph. 2, death is something that we emerge from and not something that we enter into. For Richard to characterize those of us who are alive in Christ as defensive is fine with me. After all, Paul spent most of his ministry in defense of the Gospel. As far as “reason being absent,” I sure hope so. Our human reasoning can only work to seperated us from Christ.
I don’t even want to get into Richards’ comment that we should leave this debate up to preachers. I’ll leave that for someone else to address.
Let me add a clarification.
I am not saying that anyone who holds a belief X (the example was instrumental music) is, by default, defensive.
The issue is how that belief is deployed. For example, how permeable is the belief to interlocutors? Many people on Mike’s prior post who held traditional positions were not defensive IMHO.
Again, the issue, psychologically speaking, isn’t about the content of the belief but how it functions in the psyche of the believer.
Kathy - I appreciate your comments and I think you and I agree much moreso than not, particularly in the area of senior men. I think we’ve both made Richard’s point - I made an observation based on my experiences and you made a differing observation based on your experience. The “most” I referred to was my reflection on my experience and was not intended to be a blanket statement.
I also think there’s a fine line between healthy debate, and arguing. I never have and never will attempt to persuade someone to take my position on issues of controversy - and it appears the same is true of you.
Thank you, Richard for your gentle, loving response.
May there be more of this attitude offered the recalcitrant seniors, or younger ones for that matter, that stay bound in the aforementioned chains.
The poem Mike directed us to shows why I wish the youth group to whom I minister would spend more time developing relationships with the older generations. I’m constantly blown away by the selfless love and devotion older married couples express to each other. It’s enough, with just their examples, to transform the way the millennial generation views marriage. Kathy you’re right, and I’m guilty often times of blanket statements and negative presuppositions about the generations ahead of me. Thanks for the reminder and correction.
Denominations….The Lord’s Church….
What does that even mean? If that’s not a prime example of what Richard’s talking about, I don’t know what is…
That really is a great poem. I met the woman I would later marry at an LAX during a layover. Airports are wonderful and desperate places, displaying the full spectrum of humanity.
I think it is crazy that you had 250+ comments on instrumental music. We need to focus on loving one another and understand that each one of us are autonimous of each other. Let each leadership decide what they want. Move on and let us be missional. Let us love so the world may know that we are your disciples.
I love the Richards blog.
Thanks for sharing the poem link! I also enjoy Richard’s blog and hope to meet him when I can get a chance to come out and visit Whitney, maybe in the Spring.
Peace.
We are now paying £8 to £10 per gallon for petrol, and that’s in our already fuel efficient cars. On today’s market exchange that translates into $16.68 to $20.85 per gal.
The reason we are increasingly taxed on our petrol is to prevent us using petrol to help reduce global warming. In addition to petrol taxes, we pay an additional tax to use our cars on the roads, and that tax is directly related to engine size. For a 3-litre engine, tax is over £200 ($417) per annum.
Our overall public transport system is considered the lamest amongst the EU. Why? Because although England got bombed in WW2, we didn’t get bombed as much as the rest of Europe, so therefore did not qualify for as much assistance in rebuilding during the aftermath (it took us 60 years – up until last Dec – to finally pay back that rebuild debt to the US government). We do have the most modern railway system in Europe now, thanks to the Chunnel from France into St Pancras station London (which opens 14th November).
So when you guys are enjoying your summer road trips and pull into Dairy Queen for a nice cold icy treat, have one for us and say a prayer of thanks for your blessings!
Already predicting $4/gallon just tells me that these prices are indeed fixed! GWB is on his way out - gotta build up that retirement fund.
bpb,
Please go back and study economics more carefully.
CoC groups are probably a lot of fun to study from a psychological standpoint!
Snapshot, how bout CoC preachers from a psychological standpoind?!:-)
Wwho would win in the Octagon; Chuck the “Iceman” Liddell of Constantine the “Imposer”? I think Constantine taps out 45 seconds in or gets his jaw broke.
Well I for one don’t appreciate my defensiveness being analyzed.
Leland,
I might actually bet against “Iceman” Liddell if his opponent in the Octagon is John Knox.
I’ll challenge you Mike. On my site I have pointed out that every year the media starts to throw out “By mid summer gas will by an average of $4.00!!” and it NEVER happens. Even this year, back in May they were saying that and it never happened.
I’m here to tell you that once again this will not happen. Now, remember, we are talking a NATIONAL average, not one day in one city on some island.
It won’t happen.
Thanks Mike. I loved the poem.
My above comment was a weak attempt at humor. (I was being defensive). Just in case you were wondering.
Amy - the people who know you chuckled.
I got it, Amy. Laughed out loud right here in the coffee shop!
Ya’ll are cracking me up!
Us, CoCers being defensive….NO WAY!
I think I actually took a class on being “doctrinally” defensive at some point. (Amy, this is another attempt at humor!)
Preacherman, preachers aren’t any more weirded out than the rest of us!
Mike,
This doesn’t relate much to your latest blog, but I would enjoy hearing your comments regarding Greg Boyds latest blog entry. Don’t know if you have read any of his stuff or not but I found his book “Myth of a Christian Nation” to be very thought provoking.
http://gregboyd.blogspot.com/2007/11/washing-osamas-feet.html
Thanks
KentF,
So if these elderly, stubborn old coots don’t agree with you it’s because they are unenlightened, ignorant bigots who believe the way they do because they want to control the wimmin’ and keep them in their place? Some of them may have actually studied their way to their beliefs. It’s not even entertained here that they could be right.
Don’t worry, they’ll all die off in a few years and you won’t be burdened with their archaic views anymore. Trust me, my Dad could read Richard B’s blog and he might as well be looking at Chinese. But I’ll trust his wisdom and experience any day of the week in comparison. Even if he is a relic who according to you has no relationship with God because he holds certain beliefs you find unimportant.
GKB,
The Lord’s Church is the body of believers. Even though you may think I’m referring, exclusively, to the cofC, I’m not. You’ll be pleased to know that I believe the body of believers extends beyond our fellowship.
I would like to see a study of the psyche of those who are guilt ridden for being sanctified. The entire NT calls us, as believers, to be set apart. Yet, there are countless aggressive progressives who insist that there be no distinctions among us.
Clarification: us refers to all religious people of all faiths
I do think it says something that there is few then 250 comments on this and the other.
The grace of God is good and working.