Despite Paul’s insistence in Galatians that we are not set right with God or spiritually formed by the law, he makes these statements:
“The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.”
“Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.”
A couple helpful insights: the first from Ben Witherington and the second from N. T. Wright.
“The phrase ‘the law of Christ’ first and foremost refers to the cruciform and resurrection pattern of the life of Jesus, which is to be replicated in the lives of Christ’s followers by the work of the Spirit and by imitation.”
“It is not a bare faith, simply giving credence to a set of beliefs. It is a faith that works — but not with ‘the works of the law’. . . . It is faith that works through love. Love is open to all, no matter of what ethnic origin; but, even more, love is precisely the motivating force through which God himself welcomes all believers into his family. That same motivating force is what ought to make all family members welcome one another as well.”
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Want to know what people under 30 think about Christianity? Check this update from Barna.
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Still time to join us for the “Overflow” Zoe Conference next week.
All I can say is AMEN!!
What a great message-that it is NOT about getting it all right, but is all about loving each other in spite of our differences!!
Thank you for the reminder~
“Get the people right…” I think I heard Landon say that a few times last week at ACU… Yep, he said it…
“That same motivating force (love) is what ought to make all family members welcome one another as well.” THAT is how we all should read Galatians…
From the Barna link, this should scare the crap out of us…
“When young people were asked to identify their impressions of Christianity, one of the common themes was “Christianity is changed from what it used to be” and “Christianity in today’s society no longer looks like Jesus.” These comments were the most frequent unprompted images that young people called to mind, mentioned by one-quarter of both young non-Christians (23%) and born again Christians (22%).”
Follow this link to some “Emergent-See Po-Motivators” posters. They are funny if you appreciate satire.
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/posters.htm
Funny how this phrase is proof-texted to support the making of another law out of the gospel when this phrase is found among, perhaps, Paul’s strongest case against turning the gospel into the law.
The Law of Christ is to love. It is written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit.
Rom 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.
Kathrine through Alan,
I agree, but here is the depressing truth. Soon someone will post a comment along the following lines:
“Yes, we must love people! And truly loving people means teaching them the Truth, the whole gospel. Thus, to love, let’s say, women, we must teach them to be silent in our churches and submit to male leaders.”
It’s crazy logic, I know. But it’s coming. Watch the comments that follow.
I totally agree with Barna’s Poll.
I was a youth minister for over 8 year and then took a sabatical from full time ministry. I had always believed that my real calling was preaching but if you look at ACU or any other COC Job web site they want someone with at least 5 years preaching expereince, can walk on water, etc.
So, being burnout from youth ministry. I took a sabatical and took a look at the Churches of Christ from an outward perspective. I totally agree with George Barna. As a person in my 30’s I want something that is applicable. I want a massage that I can leave saying “Okay, that is what they Bible mean’s. Wow. The Bible really is does apply to my daily life.” As a person in my 30’s I wanted a church that could help me grow as a father, and husband. As a person in my 30’s I wanted to go deeper. I wanted to be feed. I wanted to experience God.
As I started seeking I found numberous churches talking about topics that did not apply to daily life (We need to be cautious about what is going on across town, see the changes they are makin’, or other usesless non-sense stuff) where when I left saying so, what? I went to a few churches where nothing they taught was the greek work of this is that and this and that and so on and bla. Again. I left with the feeling of so what? So, I definately understand the poll. Thanks Mike for posting the site.
Mike I am also thankful that you are professor in the Bible department at ACU because I believe many professors teach and totally forget what really ministry is like. So, thanks brother. God bless.
I totally agree with Barna’s Poll.
I was a youth minister for over 8 year and then took a sabatical from full time ministry. I had always believed that my real calling was preaching but if you look at ACU or any other COC Job web site they want someone with at least 5 years preaching expereince, can walk on water, etc.
So, being burnout from youth ministry. I took a sabatical and took a look at the Churches of Christ from an outward perspective. I totally agree with George Barna. As a person in my 30’s I want something that is applicable. I want a massage that I can leave saying “Okay, that is what they Bible mean’s. Wow. The Bible really is does apply to my daily life.” As a person in my 30’s I wanted a church that could help me grow as a father, and husband. As a person in my 30’s I wanted to go deeper. I wanted to be feed. I wanted to experience God.
As I started seeking I found numberous churches talking about topics that did not apply to daily life (We need to be cautious about what is going on across town, see the changes they are makin’, or other usesless non-sense stuff) where when I left saying so, what? I went to a few churches where nothing they taught was the greek work of this is that and this and that and so on and bla. Again. I left with the feeling of so what? So, I definately understand the poll. Thanks Mike for posting the site.
Mike I am also thankful that you are professor in the Bible department at ACU because, I believe many professors teach and totally forget what really ministry is like. So, thanks brother. God bless.
Praise God because He first loved us. And we should be motivated to live a life of love because of the love we have received from both the Father aand the Son.
Children may be expressing homes where Christ is not a family member. Where they have been left to themselves for a long, long time. I have spoke to so many adults that tell of a home life growing up with many things money can buy, but no time at all with either parent, going off to school and wondering where was I really in all of this. Love takes time and sometimes a loving hug. Someone to talk too and take your example from, not the hired help.
We are told “God is love”. We sometimes have a dissconnect with that thought.
i like it
Barna’s point about Christians not looking like Jesus is clearly evident when you look at the comments on this blog over the past week. The amazing amounts of fighting you see because of who’s speaking for who, secondary “theological” disagreements, and the ugly, maggot-infested name calling.
Christians can downright ugly towards one another… it’s no wonder society/younger people are disillusioned with us.
Yesterday’s cartoon strip, “Wizard of Id” had a conversation between two guys. One was asked, “Is your king to the left or the right on issues?” The other said, “My king is the issue!” Good theology, don’t you think?
The Depressing Truth (Lie)- The Apostle Paul beat us to it. Thirty-four verses from the greatest chapter on love ever inspired by God, Paul makes that exact statement. It seems to me that you should take it up with him.
Hey, so far everyone staying on the unmitigated love theme. Which is awesome. My depression is lifting. But I’m still waiting for the first comment along these lines:
We must love* everyone.
*baptized via immersion, women stay silent, non-instrumental music, see Appendix for details.
Might it be possible that most of the young peoples issues with christianity exspecially evangelical christianity have more to do with the increasing hostility towards christianity in the press and in schools. If this is not a major factor than why in the days of the Jewell Miller filmstrips and Gospel meetings that so many here seem to blast (which were, at there time, at least as culturally relevant and marketed in a modern way as what we talk abvout doing today)was christianity perceived in a more positive way
We must love* everyone
*non-sarcastic, non-critical
Troy!
You beat me to the punch. Bless* you. I love* you Troy!
Not sure we really needed Barna to tell us that children are decreasingly likely to buy into Christianity the way we’re setting it out there for them to see.
Just talk to the children of families who have been on the unfortunate end of specious discipline from “church” “pastors” who have a hyper-growth agenda to fulfill and will brook not the slightest disagreement with their “vision,” either from the unwashed rank-and-file or from renegade elders who are “just being difficult.”
These children are paying close attention, and what they notice in their “pastors” is not The Great Shepherd, but something else entirely. Wolves, perhaps.
qb
Ah Eddy,
But if we are to change the tide per the Barna poll we must identify those views that are both turning our children away and betraying the life of Jesus! And satire is helpful with this.
And I’m sorry about hurt feelings. Those are just growing pains.
And I love* you too!
TDT - I’m not really sure what to say. All I know is that your perception is betraying you. I, along with most people here, love everybody. We love our neighbors as ourselves. We disagree at times, but we love nevertheless.
I enjoyed N.T.’s thoughts, I recently read his book called “Simply Christian” a great book.
http://www.matthewsblog.waynesborochurchofchrist.org
I know Troy, we do disagree. You loved* me calling me a liar! It was a sweet* moment for us!
Re: Barna article
If only we could see how WE contribute to the problem as clearly as we see how OTHERS are contributing to the problem, I might have hope that this trend will reverse.
I’m totally confused by the string of comments here. But, the title “Simply Christian” sure is appealing.
See ya at Zoe!
TDT - I’ve heard about the Chinese couple naming their baby @, but I’ve never heard of anyone named The Depressing Truth. I did not call you a liar. I was suggesting that your perception of conditional love is a lie. May I add, that it is a lie that is used, by you and others like you, in an attempt to seperate those who believe as I do, from the parts of the Bible that even the world agrees with. The parts that address the need for love and compassion. You believe that since popular opinion is on your side that you are right. It is people like you, the media, and Hollywood that are responsible for turning young people against Christianity. Your bitterness and deviseness are repulsive. Just remember, it was the popular opinion of the Jews that demanded that Jesus be crucified, and that His blood be on them and their children. They had no idea about the ramifications of what they were saying, and neither do you.
Troy,
I’m so sorry about misunderstanding about you calling me a liar. My bad!
So, I’m not a liar, but, in your words, I’m “turning young people against Christianity,” and I’m “repulsive”! And more! The blood of Jesus in on my head! Ah, such tenderness. Such sweetness:-)
But we forget that Jesus was killed by the legalists who wished to put an asterisk on his love. But Jesus wouldn’t back down. And neither will I!
Troy, keep the love* letters coming!
* (formerly known as The Depressing Truth) - I could type from here to next week, and you wouldn’t hear a word I said. So be it.
So be it.
Do not allow reports like the one from Barna to be very authoritative. There is no way anyone can know about all the under 30 in the country. I know of a great many who love the church , are active in the church , continue to bring their friends and teach them and have no desire for the church to make sweeping changes. They love the Lord ,people , the word and the church. If we are to be true to what Paul said about faith and love , then let each one of us teach and live by what we teach. Be Christ - like in all you do everyday. Some will reject the truth , some will accept it. Stay with the word or else all of us will get depressed .
Hi Ray!
Stay with the Word? Yes, we all do! But say what you mean Ray! You mean “Believe as Ray B believes”! Correct? Tell me I’m wrong. Tell me that in good Christian freedom people can disagree with you on baptism or women’s roles?
See, here’s the great thing. I don’t need to check in with God about my beliefs. Instead, I can come here and talk to Ray, the Spokesman of God! And don’t be humble Ray, don’t back away from such an honor. Wear it with pride.
Oh, wait, let me guess what your response will be! This shouldn’t be too hard. I bet it will be something like this:
I don’t preach my own beliefs. I believe in what the bible teaches. You are not disagreeing with me but the clear teachings of Scripture.
Do I got that right? Let’s see…
I’m depressed by the non-truth that God just needs to check blogs to find folks are able to judge motives and thoughts–all the while claiming freedom from judgmental attitudes.
Welcome back Eddy!
It is ironic that to judge the judgmental you will be called judgmental. Deliciously ironic, don’t you think? Quite the puzzle. (But I must admit that your lot have had it coming for some time on this blog. Your performance on this blog has been abysmal. I give you a D+ for open-mindedness. Which I think is a passing grade. So, see you in heaven!)
Watch it TDT… your disillusionment is showing! Let me guess… you grew up ultra-fundi cofc and now even the smell of a songbook or a potluck casserole makes you break out in hives…
This if fun… rhetorically speaking.
For which of my three comments am I (along with my lot) being graded D+? 1. My king is the issue 2. God loves non-sarcastic people. 3. Bloggers cannot judge hearts of fellow bloggers.
Ah, psychobiography. Well played Encouraging Lie!
I am disillusioned. Have you seen the recent Barna results?
I thought the Barna study was right on. I spent some time as a campus minister and quite a bit of time teaching college students, and that’s about what I hear across the board.
So what will we do with it? Denial is pointless, rebuttal is irrelavant, anger is just selfishness…
Who better to critique us than those who have nothing to gain by it? Young people shaped by us from infancy are finely tuned to detect our (my) baloney… I thank God for the “Questioning Faithful”.
If you teach the whole will of God and then apply it , lives will be touched. There will always be those who will be critical of the church. some have been opposed to the church since the beginning. That will never chnage. My point is that the church does not have to change the historical truth , the doctrinal truth and the moral truth found in scipture to be evangelistic and to make an impact on the world. It is happening everyday.
Just a couple of off the wall musings after reading through this long, long discussion.
1-JESUS established HIS Church. We are not to establish ours.
2-WE are to GO to those that don’t know Him - take Him and His offer of eternity with Him to the lost.
3-The CHURCH belongs to Him, is HIS bride, not ours.
4-We’re to be about caring for the needy and marginalized.
5-Evangelism, imho is to show the way to Christ, not to the front door of MY church.
6-WHY do we preach The Church and not THE MESSIAH??
As I said, just some random thoughts as I read through this argument. Is this what Paul meant when he said it might well be good that there are differences of opinions? I wonder.
“I preach nothing but Christ, and Him crucified…”
Sounds like a good model to follow, again imho.
I was wondering around the Zoe sites and discovered it cost nearly $2,000 to “Grow into deeper spirituality in Christ.”
WOW! It does sound so cultish to me.
Children are growing up not believing in the gospel anymore because their Christian parents don’t believe the gospel.
Our culture of Christianity still believes our government is in control of time and history.
Our culture of Christianity still believes the use of power (violence) will change the course of time and history to be in our favor.
Our culture of Christianity still believes that its wealth is the key to life.
Our culture of Christianity still believes that the gospel is simply about salvation from sins and has nothing to do with the Lordship and Victory of Jesus Christ.
Therefore this ‘law of Christ’ which manifest itself in a call to love our world (friends and foes) in a self-sacrificially serving manner is the lost. The way of Jesus is reduced to sitting in a pew two hours on Sunday and squabling over things that mean nothing to God or the rest of the world. And we wonder why more and more of our children don’t grow up to believe — and if they do, they run off to one of those other culturally relevant Chrisitan communities that have figured out how to allow new wine to be poured into new wineskins.
Ray -
Barna can actually make fairly accurate assessments of the under 30 crowd. It’s called a statistical sample. It’s not 100% accurate, but it’s quite close. And speaking as someone under 30, the results don’t surprise me. I’ve seen a lot of people become disenchanted with Christianity and drop it. It definitely doesn’t feel like Christians have the overwhelming majority that we used to anymore.
I find it very interesting that despite our attempts to make Christianity more inclusive and more attractive to (like) the world more people than ever view the church this way.
We talk about how we’re so much better off without gospel meetings, convicting preaching, intense biblical studies-and how the enlightenment discovered in recent years has shown us that our previous convictions were wrong. Yet in those days (according to this study which most seem to agree with) the church was viewed in a better light. Perhaps our identity in those days was more distinct.
Is it possible that our lack of conviction for the sake of inclusion in so many areas is in itself repulsive to people?
Keith,
In “those days” of the earliest Restoration period, we were part of a revival taking place on the American Frontier. We were not the only Christian group to experience growth.
In “those days” of the 20th century, we were very secterian in our approach. Secterians groups generally have a much bigger evangelistic push because they believe everyone except for their own is lost.
Now that more and more Churches of Christ are becoming more denominational (I believe we are a denomination, but that is arguable) and less secterian, we do not know how to evangelize. Back in the secterian days, evangelism consisted of just showing people who already followed Jesus (Chrisitans) that they were wrong on a few points which led to those who agreed joining our churches. The other problem facing evangelism today is the shift in culture. This shift is effecting the evangelism efforts of most Churches of Christ, secterian or non-secterian. I believe the problem is that we first have yet to fully accept North America as a “mission” field rather than a “pastoral” field. Second, now that culture has shifte and is no longer that southern culture of yesterday’s Bible Belt (”those days”), we have yet to learn how to incarnationally carry the gospel of Jesus in a way that is both culturally relevant and faithful to the gospel. In North America, you generally find churches (not just CoC) who do one or the other to such extreme that they, arguably, violate the other side.
Being both culturally relevant (incarnational) and faithful to the gospel is hard business. I try to be both at the same time. This I can assure you of, I do have convictions. But my convictions are not to appealing to people who want to insist on placing Dalai Lama or Buddha as equal to or greater than Jesus Christ. That is the North American culture I serve in as a missionary with a local church and in such a culture, the prolem of evangelism is a little more complex.
I could suggest a few thoughts from the Barna study but really I just don’t know. In the Bible there were many who were legalists and many who were disobedient. There were those who were judgemental and those who allowed the wolves in to preach a false gospel. I am comforted by Paul telling Timothy to stick to the gospel even when people reject it. So some are rejecting it. It doesn’t mean we should give up on them. Paul told Timothy to stay with them and bring them back. But at the same time I think some of the self-condemnation is unhealthy. It suggests that we are worse than we used to be. The church will never be perfect. I’m sorry that people are rejecting the gospel and I’d like to think I’d do anything to change their mind….except alter the gospel. But ultimately the gospel isn’t cool, it isn’t hip and isn’t easy. Our society wants some things that the gospel won’t provide. That’s not my fault. I can do alot of things to ensure the gospel is accessible. But alas, many will deny it no matter what.
Sorry for the rambling.
Ok, after reading Mike’s blog off and on since the beginning of the year, I think it is time for me to comment. Although I have come close, most recently with all of the bashing after “ACU’s anti-war” post. Sine I am 23, maybe having somebody who fits the 16-29 grouping on the subject might help clear some things up. From talking to people my age in and out of the church, yes, we are sick and untrusting of a lot of things. And yes, I believe a lot of it comes from the institutional church (ie: church budgets, bureaucracy, a seemingly lack of concern for anybody outside of the walls, etc…). I believe that if my age group started to see those in the body of Christ truly love their neighbor, views might change. Instead of becoming a vehicle for God to work, we seem to have become a club that we become a part of by acting a certain way and pretending like we have everything together.
Last March or so the congregation I was meeting with announced from the pulpit that the collection would no longer be going for benevolence until the collection increased so that the building payment could be paid. For those in the church in my age group and even those on the outside looking in, we could care less about some building. If the ministers truly want to make a statement about budget, lead by example and forego a salary, or heaven forbid, don’t make a building payment so that everybody in the community can eat, but don’t cut benevolence or even threaten for the sake of leverage.
I am currently teaching a church history class at a private high school where the large majority of the kids are Christian. I recently (Wednesday) posed this question to the class. “Most people see Christians as people who go to church on Sundays and who are hypocrites. So, what would it take for the church to be noticed in today’s society?” Some of the answers were depressing as more than one person stated that they believe the church has dug itself into a hole so deep that it cannot come out. And this was from 16 and 17 year olds!
People are obviously hurting within the church, but it is rarely addressed. We put on our happy faces and pretend like everything is perfect. I know that I have briefly touched on quite a few topics and I don’t know how much this enlightens, if any at all. But for a lot of the younger generation in the church, the frusterations are mounting. Shane Claiborne stated that we need to “stop complaining about the church that we’ve experienced and try to become the church that we dream of” but in all honesty it’s hard when we feel like we have no support and when we see people arguing over petty things and not being real with each other.
I guess everything can be summed up with “Love the Lord your God…Love your neighbor as yourself.”
-Sorry for the diatribe
What’s tragic about the Barna findings is that churches are not addressing the problem. Most are going on about busines (doctrine, assemblies, budgets and buildings) as is this were the 1950s. God could use churches and church leaders in powerful ways to reach the 16-29-year-olds if we would only let him have his way with us.
Steve Sr., may I suggest one way to reach the 16-29 year olds would be to listen to the Dustins in our midst.
Dustin your pain and struggle are so patently obvious in your response and reflects what I hear from your age group constantly. I truly believe we need to change the pie chart of our local congregation’s budgets; making benevolence and missions the largest chunk of monies spent from the body’s income. We might also consider inviting more of our 16-29 year olds to active ministry in these two areas.
One aside regarding the “Church is not perfect” - is it our business to be perfecting the Church? Or is it not already perfect because it IS the Bride of Christ? We, the members may not be perfect, and need a lot of work to change our reputation in the world, but to me, God’s Church is perfect - just not the local congregations always are. AND the only way we can “be perfect even as the Father is perfect” is knowing His will and following it, as found in His Word to us, which starts with loving Him and all others. JMHO
The power is in the gospel. Preach / teach the gospel . Allow the cross to shape how you live. Then the people around you will be touched in a positive way. All ages included.
It seems to me that Galatians IS about getting it right–getting love right. And Paul seems rather harsh with those who don’t. I identify with my Galatian brothers and sisters.
One question though: What do we do with Paul’s overt opposition to Peter “because he was clearly in the wrong” (2:11)? How does this fit in with what we’ve said about love?
Ray B,
Not to be too hard on you, but your comment here makes my stomach turn.
For you, “the gospel” and “the cross” equate with 1950s CofC stuff: Non-instrumental music, male elders and preachers, bible study over social justice, and baptism by immersion.
Let’s be frank: That list is NOT the gospel OR the cross. And your willful insistence that they ARE is the root of the problem with the CoC.
Kathy, absolutely! I wrote my post before seeing Dustin’s. But he is exactly right in his observations, sadly. Still, I think the crisis in christendom can bring about some long needed and long-term positive changes in the church. This aint your father’s church any more; it our Father’s Kingdom!
We can teach the gospel , the cross , as well as male leadership , acapella singing , benevolence , and immersion and still be a church of compassion. It does not make any difference as to the decade or what part of the world. Just teach the holy scriptures. Those who are open to the word will respond. Being obedient, insisting on being doctrinally accurate is an expression of love. The fruit of healthy teaching will be mercy and good works. The church is so invovlved all over the world everyday. Praise God for all the wonderful expressions of love to those in need !
Dustin,
Most ministers I have met sacrifice a lot more than money and they do sacrifice a lot of money as well. More and more churches want ministers who have committed themselves to being educated (I might add that even though education is not everything, there is a great value in having a minister who has spent some time studying theology and ministry). Someone has to pay for that education and if that is the minister himself, he needs enough salary to provide for his family as well as pay back his educational loans. I happen to believe that by a church investing money in a good minister, they are investing money in the missional leadership of that church to help its missional cause.
Speaking from a minister’s viewpoint, do you know what one of the hardest things to do in ministry is? To get the majority of the congregation to give of itself more. Though giving may involve some more money at times. Money is usually not the problem. The problem that keeps many churches from being a missional body rather than an institutional body is the growing number of people in the pew who have neither the time or desire to be involved. Part of this stems from the narcissism that is thuroughly infused in our culture, which we approach Christianity with as well. 50-75 years ago when many Churches of Christ were planted outside the traditional Bible-belt, they were done by the “laity” sacrificing much for the sake of the kingdom. When the people in the pew learn to sacrifice like our grandparents generation did, the church will become missional again.
I am saying this because I believe it is an easy cop-out to blame the minister or say the minister needs to set the example. While there may be some ministers who do need to set better examples, the problem is bigger than one person. But, like team sports, it is easier to blame one leader (coach, manager, preacher, etc…) than it is to address the whole team.
Ray B,
To insist that Jesus came to earth and died on the cross so that pianos could be banned from the churches of a religious movement that began in America in the 1800s is sheer madness.
To believe that Jesus had his hands and feet nailed to the cross so that he could forever forbid a woman, bible in hand, from sharing her insights into scripture before the assembly of the aforementioned institution is the height of lunacy.
Your mindset is cult-like, brainwashed, closed, and, well, borderline insane.
No wonder people are leaving the church given the madness in the pews. It’s like talking to aliens.
TDT ,
My submission is not to an American movement. It is to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. He died to set us free from sin and His blood purchased His church , the church of Christ. It is within His church that you read from the holy scriptures and how to worship and male leadership , etc. The word is not from us , it is from the Father , the Son and the Holy Spirit. Not cultic , not lunacy , or madness but just application to the living and abiding word of God.
Ray B,
Your response is expected. Members of cults are not known for their circumspection.
But the truth is out there Ray, the truth is out there.
Those poor first century Christians didn’t realize it was OK to ise instruments in worship, that’s why it took 500 years to use them. If only they had known! Drat!
What is love?
When I think of the relationship of faith and works, I remember the young men who let their paralyzed friend down through the roof to get to Jesus. Jesus is said to have “seen their faith.” This wasn’t a mystical seeing, though well that could have been possible. He was seeing faith in action, the only kind of faith that can be truly named faith.
Chris,
Your assumption that they didn’t use instruments because didn’t know they could is a little misleading. There was nothing in the Jewish Scriptures to tell them they couldn’t, and in fact many passages that told them that God LIKES being worshipped with instruments. There was nothing in the teachings of Jesus that told them that they couldn’t either, but clearly (in light of thier economic status and the fact that they often needed to worship secretively) there were many non-scriptural reasons for them not to have used instruments in that culture and in that day.
The question is: Does it then follow that we should NOT use instruments (and reject as brothers and sisters in Christ those who do) for the same non-scriptural reasons that they had for not using them? There might be any number of reasons for not using instruments in worship today, but I can’t think of any reason short of clear Biblical command to reject brothers and sisters from our table. Just to be on the “safe side” I think I’ll risk accepting a few people at the Lord’s table who don’t do things exactly like I do rather than risk rejecting EVEN ONE brother or sister who does things differently than I do, but might be found acceptable to God.
I’d rather stand before God of exhibiting too much Grace than too much Judgement. I’ve been commanded to love unconditionally… and commanded NOT to judge.
I think TDT’s point, in spite of TDT’s sarcasm, may be that LOVE, tainted with anything else, isn’t LOVE anymore… it’s just a carrot on a stick dangled to draw others to where WE think they ought to be. How about if we just love, all-out and without restraint, and let God’s Spirit do the moving? If HE wants them to stay away from pianos and guitars, He’ll let them know.
Post script: I think this kind of stuff is what drives the 15 to 30s crazy… they SEE what Jesus was getting at, and it had NOTHING to do with our silly arguments. Watch out… they’ll go to wherever the core of Jesus’ message is at front and center– as they should.
“Watch out… they’ll go to wherever the core of Jesus’ message is at front and center– as they should.”
And sadly, as some are doing even now.
Should have read,
“And sadly for many of our congregations, as some are doing even now.”
And it ain’t just the 15 - to - 30s.
It’s not necessarilly so–I doubt if a lot of them know what Jesus’ message is.
Preach the core of Jesus message. I have said that and preached that for close to 40 years. I have witnessed hundreds respond in obedience to the gospel. And not one has said to me that teaching the whole will of God was offensive. And a great many were in the under 40 age. Teach the life of Jesus but also the great doctrines. Teach about worship , leadership , moral purity , heaven , hell etc. People will listen. No , not everyone. Jesus had those who rejected Him , especailly when He began to speak about the demands of discipleship. Read John 6. They wanted bread and fish not a loyalty to Him as Lord as He defined the kingdom.
There is no reason to apologize for preaching / teaching any of the word of God . All of the sacred scriptures are profitable.
“There is no reason to apologize for preaching / teaching any of the word of God . All of the sacred scriptures are profitable.”
I agree 100% Ray B. However, knowing when and how to apply those scriptures, which are central, which are peripheral, which are contextual, etc. is extremely important. If this weren’t the case, then why would Jesus tell us that the whole law can be summed up in “Love God” and “Love your neighbor”? Why would Paul make the statement Mike began this post with, “The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love”?
Statements like these seem to imply that there ARE more and less important things. If there are more important things– such as LOVE–then shouldn’t we make all attempts to ONLY go on to less important teachings AFTER the centrality of Christ’s love for us and our love for each other and for the WORLD has been clearly and actively established?
I for one, have gone on to babble my personal pet theologies to people who have yet to have any reason to believe that I do truly love them unconditionally. In fact… I would suggest that my personal pet doctrines probably sound to most of the world like the list of “conditions” I attach to my love–whether I mean to sound like that or not. Can we afford to teach the whole of the “sacred scriptures” prior to establishing without a doubt the depth of our love? I think LOVE is the water in which all those other “living” words must swim and find life.
We may sometimes be trying to sell the world a lot of dead theological fish… Often, their reaction may be to the stink of what we’re selling, NOT a rejection of God.
Scott - I love a lot of people that remain lost. No matter how much I love someone, I can’t save them. They must be made aware of the love that God has for them. The greatest expression of God’s love for them is embodied in a series of trials, insults, and beatings, culminating in the agonizing death of his one and only Son. How can I sugarcoat that as to not offend the lost?
Troy,
The trouble is if a person insists that Jesus was insulted, beaten, and killed because God doesn’t like pianos in church. The gospel is an offense to us and the Age, but equating the gospel with the ecclesial peculiarities of the CoC is offensive for all the wrong reasons.
There is a cruciform offense and then there being offensive because a doctrine cheapens the sacrifice of Jesus.
Let’s not confuse the two.
*,
Even I’m getting a little depressed reading your post. You paint such a grim picture of the Lords’ church. I’m going to stick with my earlier statement that your perception is betraying you.
Troy… I would never want to sugarcoat the gospel, but making the Gospel offensive for all my own reasons is not only offensive to the World, but also to God. If the true offense of the gospel is to be seen and responded to by the world, it will be in the context of love. That’s not sugar coating, that’s contextualizing Jesus’ work of redemption.
Also, remember… “While we were YET SINNERS Christ died for the ungodly…” Counting the cost of Christ’s sacrifice and then shouldering the cross I must bear has more to do with my transformation as a disciple than with my “getting in”. I was forgiven while “yet a sinner” but I conform to that cross as I grow and am transformed by God.
There is the preaching of the cross. It will always be offensive to some. But so will all the rest of the word of God. God gave us His perfect will. The Bible tells us about Jesus and Him crucified for us. The holy scriptures also give us instructions on how to worship, who should lead , moral purity , marriage and home , etc. Everything we teach and how we live should be in the spirit of love. Teaching the love of Chist , the atonement , all doctrines , the practical nature of Christian living and all of His will is to be taught in love. Doctrine does not cause people to be offended just because it is doctrine.
Troy,
You are depressing me. There is such a great and grand vision of God witnessed to in Christ and you are trading it in for ashes.
Ashes.
Ashes.
Ashes.
Ray B,
If you continue to equate instrumental music with the cross of Jesus you will remain the camp of the religious nutters.
I mean, I can just imagine Jesus coming to your church:
You: “Jesus, look! We don’t use pianos! Aren’t you pleased?”
Jesus: “Huh?”
You: “Further, we’ve split churches over this issue! That’s how important we thought this was to you. Instituting non-instrumental music, we figured, was a big part of why you came to earth to die on the cross. So, we knew that the World would flock to our churches because they saw how strong we fought for No Pianos! We are a city set on a hill!”
Jesus: “Where did you get the idea I didn’t like a piano?”
The End
Back to the nutters…
One more thing Ray, just out of curiosity.
God is okay with instruments in the Old Testament, correct? And the bible says God will be worshiped with instruments in heaven (Rev. 5:8), correct?
And yet you’ll insist that this issue is central to the gospel?
Praise God for the gospel which is of first importance. Praise God that He has given us perfect guidance for how to live in such a way as to please Him.
* & Scott,
It appears that you’ve exchanged your doctrine of open-mindedness, inspired by pop culture, for that which is inspired by God. If you insist on judging us according to your own doctrine, we can never agree.
Hey Ray,
I still want to know what you think about the instruments in heaven. Do you believe the bible or not?
Troy,
You’ve lost your marbles. Seriously. I’m judging your ideas not because I’ve sold out to, what, “pop culture.” “Pop culture”? What are you talking about?
The issue before the blog is simply this: Will you equate the cross of Jesus with the 1950s ecclesial blueprint of the CoC?
You, apparently, do. And I’ve said that to do this is trading in Jesus for ashes. That’s not pop culture talking. That is Jesus talking to the Pharisees. Jesus was a bit too “open minded” for them as well. Ironic, huh?
What is spooky about you is that you’ve erected your doctrine as an idol and worship it, calling it “God.” And, in a correlated move, consider others who disagree with YOU to be disagreeing with GOD. See the idolatry there? You = God?
Now, what I would hope you would do is to admit that the CoC is a work of man, full of God, but subject to error and growth. That God was not bottled up in the 50s and stuffed into a tract (to mix a metaphor). That your god may be too small. That God, today in fact, might surprise you.
Kind of like he surprised the Pharisees.
Tootles!
*,
You’re the one handing out grades on open-mindedness. Which is, in fact, the one and only conviction of popular culture. The reality is that being open-minded simply means agreeing with you.
Let me get this straight. I referred you to I Cor. 14:34 and now I’m guilty of idolatry. Give me a break! I think that the chip on your shoulder has caused you to read more into Mike’s post than is actually there.
The last word is yours.
TDT ,
You know what I have written about the gospel being of first importance. Look at the context of Rev.5. The passage is not about the corporate worship of the church. You know that is true. It may be you want to use it as a proof text to incorporate the instrument into worship. Your choice.
Ray,
I’m not using it as a proof text. I’m just asking a simple question: In light of Rev. 5 does it appear that God is offended by instrumental praise? What is your answer? Yes or no?
(Again, I don’t like instrumental worship and avoid churches that have it. So I’m not advocating for it. Far from it. What I am concerned about is your equating a human opinion on this issue, even a well-informed opinion, with the core of the gospel.)
TDT ,
I have answered you about the core gospel. The core is the death burial and resurrection of Christ.Jesus died to save us from our sins.
The only way I know to answer you , is to say that we have a perfect revelation as to how God wants us to live and how to worship ,etc. Do we just accept the passages that teach about his death and them avoid all other teachings ?
I have never preaced or taught someone the gospel and then said , unless they understood everything about Christian living , they could not be saved. But after they obeyed the gospel , then have tried to ground them , or other memebers have , in the whole will of God. Good discussion.
What about electricity in the church service or at home? We have a whole church denomination built around the fact that we shouldn’t have electricity, the Amish? I don’t want to judge them, but just as an example of fighting about silly details of no pianos in the first century, where they didn’t have electricity either.
Troy,
It would be nice if “Pop Culture” had a doctrine of open mindedness– it does not. Pop culture is more cutthroat about what is cool or what is acceptable or what is newsworthy or what is valuable than the staunchest legalist ever thought of being. In actuality, I am choosing to sit beneath the “Tree of Life” rather than the “Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil”.
Ever since that serpent convinced us that we needed to be like God by sitting in the seat of judgement rather than by sitting in the lap of love, we’ve been building our religions around “knowing and defining for everyone else the specifics of good and evil” instead of building them around Christ (who IS love).
I’m swearing off of that fruit. God reserved that tree for himself and no one else.