Anti-War Protest
2007 September 21
Scenes from the ACU students anti-war protest for UN Day of Peace. (Read more here.)
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Once a year I play golf. This was the day. Nine holes with my brother and my dad. Loved it. I used to play quite a bit of golf, but then I became a Christian. (Just kidding, Rick, Milt, Chris, etc.)
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Can’t wait for this Sunday. Usually when Jerry Taylor preaches I’m away. But this week I’ll be there. He’s doing one of the six messages on Galatians. I’m doing the themes of scars, tables, crosses, water, and yokes. He’s speaking on fruit.
I am happy we live in a free country where people can do this.
However, I don’t like it when either side claims superior morality based on their position. Neither side (and I don’t mean just this protest at ACU, I mean historically) is being fair to the other.
I don’t like extremism in politics…it becomes arrogant.
I just want to scream reading all of these comments from this post and the one about the television preacher…
This is why I don’t go to church anymore.
I left a very conservative cofC because of the obnoxious stench of righteous indignation: “We are right(about communion, worship day, women, choirs…etc) and you poor, liberal saps are wrong- as anyone can plainly see because I can show you in my Bible the one verse that says so and we all know that we should take this literally….blah, blah, blah”
Only to find the very “progressive” cofC doing the same things they claim to hate perhaps with an even more holier than thou attitude: “We are right (about war, communion, women, etc) and you poor, weak faithed, uneducated brothers are very wrong and I can prove it to you by quoting the Bible verse and then giving you a stack of works by the highly educated men and women in the inner circle of ‘THOSE THAT KNOW’ and…yada, yada, yada”
I’m so over it. You all need to get over yourselves.
These are truly tough issues and the flippant, self righteous attitude (of those like Allison and GKB, for example) do nothing more than to draw the lines of division even deeper and make both sides look like bumbling idiots with a personal agenda and not the compassionate, open minded Christians we claim we want to portray.
Living in Boston, I sometimes forget that the comments on this blog generally represent the one region of this nation that has a majority who are in favor of the war in Iraq. If we were to get out of military town Abilene … or gun-crazy Texas … or the red-state Southeast and Southwest … and talk to the good folks in other parts of the country, we might realize that 2/3 or more of the US now believes this war is a mistake (as pg said above). If we were to travel outside of this country to other parts of the world (I just returned from East Africa), we’d discover that the U.S. is pretty much alone in thinking the war in Iraq will yield any sustainable peace in the region. Most folks abroad simply believe the U.S. is primarily pursuing self-serving interests in the Middle East, not “liberating the Iraqi people.”
My message is not to those who are voicing a harsh opinion in favor of the war on this blog (for you are the minority in the world), but to those who stand in favor of peace. Stand strong! You are not alone. Most of this nation and many other nations are with you, and the pro-war commenters and “spitters” on campus represent an extreme minority in this country (and world).
Sometimes flippancy is the best response to certain positions…it’s a fine Biblical tradition!
Hmm, okay then GKB. I get the sense you just want to be “right”. I guess the word “humble” comes to my mind when responding to any issue… which is a wonderful Christian tradition, don’t you think?
Having a military background, you know you are fighting for the freedom of others to disrespect your love of God, freedom, country, and family. That in our country religion can be studied in many different forms with harm to no one. Sort of coming to an age where we all go to higher learning, lay down our guns, and in a week be slaughtered and lose not only our lives but Biblical teachings about going out into all the world for Him. The soldier should be respected.
Terry,
Could you explain to me how the Iraq war constitutes “fighting for [our] freedom”? I hear people say this all the time, and I really don’t get it.
Was Sadaam Hussein somehow limiting our freedoms to study religion over here? Am I more free because of the war in Iraq?
You end by saying “the soldier should be respected.” Is this the topic we are discussing here?
dear SAC,
I couldn`t agree with you more!
However, i am not a CofC person myself nor do i see myself as a “progressive christian”. all that lingo sounds like as much BS to me as it does to you. I don`t think anyone who disagrees with us is a “weak-faithed individual”… I`m not one to quote Scripture… =)
All we did was stand together to say that we are not going to be lumped together with everyone who thinks ALL christians should believe in this or vote for that…
If by pressing our point we cause division among those who have been adopted as sons and daughters by God, we are harming the church, and disobeying a direct command from God. Instead, we should keep our point of view between ourselves and God in those situations.
The apostles and prophets certainly didn’t mind speaking out on contentious issues. Jesus made it clear that what he had to say would be a stumbling block to some, and would divide families. I hear what you’re saying about church unity, I really do, but after all the divisive teaching I’ve been exposed to on truly pointless topics (instrumental music, etc.) I really don’t see how we can enjoin anyone to just be quiet when thousands of lives are at stake. Let me repeat that. Thousands of lives are at stake. There is far too much in scripture about standing up for the poor and the oppressed, about working for justice and mercy, for me to be upset with someone for standing up for victims of war. Maybe others won’t agree, but if they choose to divide or leave over it, that is their choice. I hardly see how a silent protest on a college campus should threaten the unity of the church. And if we all unite on the basis of never taking any social action someone else might disagree with, that’s a pretty weak form of unity.
What the prophets had to say wasn’t exactly bringing people together in loving fellowship, but it was still right to say it.
I, in my protest of this war, call upon Christians to recognize that we as a body cannot support this war, or any war. We are to be above politics. We’re not trying to influence the foreign policy of this nation, for as someone all ready said, God uses nations to judge other nations… but we must remember, he can use the united states against evil just as he can use China or North Korea or Iran.
The christian should help explain to his brothers and sisters in Christ that our first allegiance isn’t to a “flag a country or a man… to democracy or blood. Its to a King and a Kingdom” (to quote Derrek Webb. And that should change how we view the world. It means we should “do our best to live at peace with everyone” “do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good” it means we live as citizens of the kingdom of God, not the kingdoms of men. That changes things. And it means we must be ready to sacrifice our lives to show Jesus to the world.
I’ve been reading the comments posted here with some interest, and more than a little amusement.
I am the mother of another of the students who demonstrated, and feel that I, too, must assure you that the last time I saw my son, there was not a single maggot in evidence!
)
What I do see in my son is a young man who is working hard to make a difference in this world. After the protest, I know for a fact that he went on to his (often unpaid) job working with inner-city kids who have witnessed and lived with more violence than most of us will ever experience. I can assure you that this protest represented only a couple of hours in a life that is given over to serving others in the name of Jesus. My son has first-hand experience working with “the least of these”, many of whom have suffered terrible violence at the hands of others. One who does the kind of work he does would naturally be opposed to violence of any sort.
You may think that I’m a pacifist, like my son — I am not. But I do support the rights of these sincere young people to peacefully assemble, to pray, and to speak their beliefs. If memory serves, I’m pretty sure the constitution still guarantees them that right. For exercising that right, these kids were spat upon (and aspersions have been cast upon them in this venue that are completely undeserved). The right to spit upon another and slander another is one I’m pretty sure is NOT listed in the constitution, and certainly has no place on a Christian campus, or in any Christian context. Hmmm….”spitter” or “spittee”? Even if my son were not among the “spittees”, I’m thinking my sympathies would definitely not lie with the spitters! I seem to remember that Jesus was spat on and slandered, as well, so I guess the protesters would find themselves in some pretty good company.
And speaking of good company, several of the early Restorationists were pacifists, so maybe things are coming full circle.
Justin:
Did it ever occur to you that this instance just *might* be a case of God using one nation to enforce his justice on another? Not that it is or isn’t, but this idea that God “uses” nations without any concrete manifestation of that use just begs the question. Even if we are a modern-day Babylon, as some here want us to believe – and perhaps they’re right! – we have no trouble locating Biblical precedent for Babylon being used to do God’s dirty work.
Several here wish to distill the US action in Iraq to one solitary justification; and then if that justification doesn’t pan out, then they can say that the whole thing is void. But that is preposterous. There were several dimensions to the justification for going in, some stronger than others, some weaker; some circumstantial, and some unquestionable. It was a complicated decision, and some who now protest that “war should be a last resort” really mean to say that “war is never a resort;” and they should just admit that for the sake of credibility.
qb
I am thankful to live in a country where demonstrations are allowed, and believe that people have that right. However, there seems to be a common assumption that American soldiers are killing Iraqi children, and I believe that assumption is false. Do we really believe everything we hear?
I am currently in Iraq as a writer and observer, and I can say with conviction that the men and women who are here are here for one purpose: to protect innocent civilians. Insurgents (read: Iraqis) are the ones who are killing innocent children. American soldiers are pained by these deaths. I know several who have witnessed the deaths of children at the hands of Iraqis, and are so traumatized by those deaths that they are on anti-anxiety medication. It is not uncommon for Iraqi militants to literally use American children as shields. A soldier told me yesterday that one of these Iraqis said the reason they resort to using children as shield is this: they know that American soldiers are very unlikely to use force when there are children in the room. These poor Iraqi souls are so desperate for power that they are willing to risk the lives of their own children to attain such power. Yet evey they understand that American men and women are so sensitive to the hearts of children that they will will risk their own lives by limiting the use of force if children are even in the vicinity!
So I say this: Pray for peace. Protest the war. Hate it even. God knows the soldiers who are here to keep peace hate violence more than you ever will. But don’t say that Americans are killing children. I can promise you this: if we pull out of here, only then will the bloodbath truly begin. Compassion, in this case, may mean sacrificing our sons and daughters for the sons and daughters of Iraq.
I goofed above and said that Iraqis use American children as shields. I meant to type Iraqi children…sorry for the mistake. Thank God they are not using our American children as shields. But…my goof raises a question: How would we feel if the Iraqis were, indeed, using AMERICAN children as human shields. Would we then think it noble to protect those children, even at the greatest cost – the life of soldiers and Marines?
By the way, the only Iraqis that need fear arrest are the Iraqis who aim to kill their own innocents. There is no use of force by Americans unless it is necessary to protect innocent life.
EDGAR: Was Saddam Hussein somehow limiting our freedoms to study religion over here? Am I more free because of the war in Iraq?
No, Edgar. Your freedom to “study religion” is still intact. But Saddam certainly placed limits on the freedoms of his own people when he boiled them, burned them alive, and poisoned thousands in Kurdistan.
Are you more free because of the war in Iraq? Are you seriously asking how this affects YOU? Americans are dying in Iraq for one purpose: to make IRAQ more free. I doubt the commanders at headquarters here have thought much about whether the war makes Edgar more free. Good to know you’re looking out for #1 though.
Kirk wrote: The apostles and prophets certainly didn’t mind speaking out on contentious issues.
They never spoke out about politics. Their only comments about government was that we are to obey the law and pay our taxes.
Romans 14 contains a direct command to keep our views on disputable matters between ourselves and God. If you don’t feel constrained by that then this conversation is a waste of time.
As a church, we still have great difficulty distinguishing between the word of God and our opinions. I have many opinions, but only one cause. And I will submit my opinions in a heartbeat (and often do) when doing so is in the best interest of that cause.
Alan,
Jesus certainly talked about politics. Maybe not Donkey or Elephant partisan politics, but he absolutely talked about how his people should conduct their lives together.
what the hell are you talking about?
why are you all still talking about what is in the bible and what isn`t… who cares?
what matters is what is happening NOW! This is why we as christians sound so ridiculous! We only know how to argue and discuss if an apostle wrote this or if Jesus said that.
The bible is not our God! GOD is our God! in fact, according to the bible Jesus is the WORD of God, not a text! If god`s ultimate word to humanity is a text, then He chose a tool of communication that is by nature restrictive (texts are restrictive in context, literary style, history, culture…). If the Bible is our PRIMARY way of knowing God`s will then that excludes all those who can`t read or study textual or historical backgrounds (since these are our most basic tools for understanding the text itself)and this is in contradiction to the bible itself which states that the lowliest and most humble of people are the very ones who know God the best!
So please, stop quoting the bible left and right… you sound like a bunch of kids on a school playground.
Moreover, the bible presents no homogenous theology of war (there are differing views on this issue within the text), you aren`t going to prove anything by quoting scripture.
Suddenly, the church has become more open discussing issues concerning homosexuality and abortion. But when it comes to our own war, a war that has gone on for years, no discussion can take place. I participated in the protest on Friday, and it was the first time in a long time that I was proud to be a part of the ACU student body. All we want now is conversation among our peers. I hope this can be expected soon.
Seth,
I think there are things in motion, largely thanks to your actions on Friday. I think the conversation will expand, with much more visibility. You guys may have been the catalyst we’ve all needed.
KD,
Uhh… thanks, I guess, for answering a post that was directed to Terry. Terry had said that the troops were
“fighting for the freedom of others to disrespect your love of God, freedom, country, and family. That in our country religion can be studied in many different forms with harm to no one”
So I asked him to explain… Terry did not assert that the troops were fighting for Iraq’s freedom; he said the troops were fighting for our freedom. So I asked him to back that up, using myself as an example of your average American.
You assert, on the other hand that the troops are “dying in Iraq for one purpose: to make IRAQ more free.”
Did you clear this one purpose with the commander in chief? I remember him saying we were in Iraq to remove Sadaam, who was a threat to the US and the region with his weapons of mass destruction.
In any case, Iraq is certainly more free now. But many many tens of thousands of Iraqis have died during the war. (Many more are dying per year now than ever died under Sadaam’s rule.) Others live in terrible conditions with no electricity (even during the hottest months), no garbage collection, and constant danger of death. If we were not prepared to establish order, improve living conditions and provide a bare minimum of security, was it worth going into Iraq to make Iraq free? Did the Iraqis invite us to come in and make them free?
If Iraq did not have oil, would we have felt compelled to make them free?
Are we going to invade Cuba and make them free soon? I hear the Cubans have very little freedom.
Have a nice day.
Edgar: I obviously did not read your post correctly. I apologize. And I agree with you that invading Iraq may have been motivated by things that were not in the best interest of Iraqis as a whole. However, we are currently living in the year 2007, and we are currently in Iraq. As I said in present tense earlier: [in the year 2007] people are dying [present tense] in Iraq to make Iraq more free. Just because we made a mistake in 2003 (a decision that was much more complicated that anyone likes to admit in hindsight – conveniently) doesn’t make a mistake in 2007 a brilliant solution. I can say with certainty that leaving now would cause more death and destruction than we can imagine. More than now, more than during the reign of terror. I will never argue that we should have entered into this mess. But I will argue that we must not abandon the Iraqis that are living in squalid conditions as you correctly point out. In my humble opinion, we have a responsibility to bring peaceful resolution if at all possible. And I believe it is possible.
I wonder: Where were the protestors when hundreds of thousands of Iraqi innocents were being slaughtered during the past two decades?
Most of them were in kindergarten…
Being in medical school for the last three years, I am ashamed that my political opinions are often unfounded and uninformed, therefore, I seldom get political. However I do have experience with suffering. I have been to places where people live in conditions that we cannot comprehend… and let me tell you, the American press does these situations no justice with their choice of what to publish… they publish the things that people will read! What I wish for is this – regardless of your political or religious influence, if you are really concerned about the people dying around the world, GO do something about it. Instead of sitting within the ACU bubble (which I have all too much experience with) go to Iraq, Zimbabwe, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Samalia, Congo, Maldives, Yemen, North Korea, Syria, China… the list is endless it seems. If you can’t go, talk to people who have actually been and hear their stories of what happens as the tears well up in their eyes at the thougt of what they have witnessed. If you had seen the people boiled to death, raped, tortured, flooded out of their homes, or had seen parents witness their children shot in front of them because the government just decided on a whim that it wanted to or it made the subjects more submissive or it needed to demonstrate its power over the people of the country, you wouldn’t be worried about whether the people had electricity or air conditioning. These people are happy just to LIVE (preferably not in constant fear). I echo KD’s sentiments – whatever got us into this war (and I make no claim that it was good intentions), we must live in the present and in the present, we CANNOT pull out and leave these people to suffer an even worse fate than when we got there. If it were indeed oil, I wish every oppressed country had the same natural resourses, so that they could receive the same amount of aid and press that Iraq does. One thing I do know, that I have painfully learned over the past year, THERE ARE MUCH WORSE THINGS THAN DEATH! I don’t really care what your opinion on the war is, and am thankful that at least the protesters have the conviction and the courage to stand up for what they believe in. My only plea is this – if you want to be informed about what you’re protesting, get your hands dirty and go sacrifice your time, money, and self to help those who are suffering at the hands of oppression!!
Really, Mike? You only golf once a year? I don’t know what I would do if I only golfed once a year…I’d probably go into some sort of comma. Outside of my wife and kids, golf is – by far – the most important thing to me. I just don’t get people like you.
KD–thanks for the nice reply.
Heather–your’re right, we must get some experience in the world to be able to make sound judgments.
The situation in Iraq is very complex, and probably immediate withdrawal of all forces would be very foolish.
Nevertheless, we must begin a plan for withdrawal and support of the Iraqi government…. I hope we are not in Iraq, still inflaming the insurgency, ten years from now.
Alan, Sep 22nd, 2007 at 3:59 pm
I am as passionate – that’s why I have to speak out against this war.
Where I live, the same people that are screaming out against abortion are huge supporters of this war. I don’t understand. Also, the suffering and conditions that are in Iraq are the fault of the U.S. They had electricity and water before we went in to “help.”
I’ll say it again because it’s still being posted here. I don’t like it when either side claims superior morality based on their position.
A great website to go to for information from Iraq is http://www.tkotravels.blogspot.com.
I pray that God will have mercy on us in our selfish ways and our thoughtlessness. Do we have any compassion? Are we willing to really stand up for the oppressed? Or do we want to save our own lives only to lose them in the end? How many of you who protested have ever lived in a country where you had no clue where your next meal would come from, or who would come and kill your family because you said something about the current ruler? How many of you have actually witnessed, in person, our military in action?
How many of you can tell me how many hospitals and medical clinics have been set up in Iraq by the US military? I pray that God will open all of our eyes to our vast riches and that we will be convicted to help the oppressed by protecting them and getting personally involved….not just as critical bystanders but as people who are willing to put our lives on the line to help others.
Did vr just make the argument that those who would oppose the ongoing war are actually lacking compassion, are selfish and thoughtless? Assuming I’m reading that right, that’s the craziest thing I’ve ever seen…
Quoting vr:
“How many of you can tell me how many hospitals and medical clinics have been set up in Iraq by the US military?”
It’s a good thing. The Iraqis need A LOT of medical care nowadays.
Edgar: You are correct. The people of Iraq are in need of a lot of medical care. But the vast majority of injuries and deaths in Iraq are from Al Qaeda in Iraq bombs and from sectarian violence, not from American bullets. The sad thing is that the atrocities that are committed against the Iraqi people are committed by Iraqis. Many may be under the impression that Iraqis who are killed by their own people are done so as “collateral damage.” This is far from the truth. The bombs, mortars, and bullets used by Al Qaeda and its cohorts are intended to kill civilians. They are the ones with blood on their hands. Before the American “occupation” began, by the way, Saddam managed to murder ~600,000 civilians (I’ve walked the hallway of one of many dungeons that Saddam used to mercilessly torture and kill them); he killed ~180,000 in Anfar; and ~500,000 were killed during the Iran/Iraq War. This is even more per day than Al Qaeda and sectarian violence has managed to do per day since we entered Iraq, since Edgar brough up the tens of thousands being killed in Iraq.
Another tidbit of actual data: Between August 14 and 21 of this year, around 250 people were killed in Iraq. According to an independent research center designed specifically to count the dead in Iraq, 230 of these deaths were from IEDs, suicide bombs, rape/murders, tortures, etc. intended specifically for civilians. Sectarian violence, Al Qaeda. Whatever you want to call it. It wasn’t the U.S Military. And the 20 deaths that can be blamed on the U.S. Military occured when Americans attempted to arrest someone who plans the death of his own people.
So, Edgar, are you going to answer vr’s question? DO YOU know how many medical clinics have been set up by the American military?
Mike: maybe you should be less judgmental, and respond to the post instead of attacking the poster. This is all complicated stuff, to be sure, so maybe vr holds a different worldview, a different opinion. Is that ok with you? Does that mean she’s crazy? If, in your mind, anyone who disagrees with you or holds a different (I would argue, not unChristlike) view is crazy, then I think you may need to check and make sure you don’t think you are God.
Edgar: “Nevertheless, we must begin a plan for withdrawal and support of the Iraqi government…. I hope we are not in Iraq, still inflaming the insurgency, ten years from now.”
I agree with this. So does every single person (especially high-ranking MNF officials) I have spoken to here in Iraq. I’ve spoken to top commanders here and these men and women are making every effort to give Iraq control of their own country, which is quite a frustrating task. But believe me when I say this: even if the commanders of Multi-National Force Iraq cared nothing about the Iraqi people (which I can tell you is not the truth), these commanders have families back home. They’d rather be home with their families than over here trying to figure out how to build a government from the ground up. Give these guys a little credit. It won’t happen overnight, and sometimes, even to these men, it may seem like an endless task, but everyone here is working toward that one goal. Why do people insinuate that they aren’t even thinking about how to leave Iraq?
Maybe it would be wise to listen to someone who is actually there seeing things firsthand than to readily accept what CNN, moveon.org, Daily Kos and Democratic Underground tells you.
By the way.. where was america`s “power of liberation” in East Timor during the indonesian invasion in the early 70`s? Why is it that we supported one of the most attrocious acts of Genocide (East Timor) both ideologically, and militarily (they used the weapons we sold them) and yet heard nothing about this issue but rather chose to focus on what OTHER nations were doing (namely, Pol Pot`s war crimes in Cambodia)?
Where were we in Angola during th 40 YEARS of attrocities? why did the U.S. not invade Angola or East Timor to stop those attorcities?
for that matter why did we choose to install Saddam in power after his bout as an assassin for the Ba`ath party which took the power in 1969… oh and just by COINCIDNCE iraq is one of the biggest oil reserves in the world… hmmmm
Terah, I don’t think I ever stated my position on the issue. What I did say was that I think arguing for war as an act of compassion sounds utterly crazy. Does that really sound judgmental and backwards to you? I don’t think I’ve ever seen the argument made that if you love someone you should war with them and their country… Hell of a bumper sticker.
Since you questioned, or rather assumed, my position, I’ll throw it out there… Going into Iraq was complete foolishness and it has been continually rationalized with an ever changing rationale. That alone says something – the complete lack of consistency in the claimed motivation for the action.
That being said, from a Christian perspective, regardless of whether troops stay or leave, there is much to mourn over, repent from, and a need to remain firmly committed to serving as the hands and feet of Christ in a devastated region. I question whether the military can ever serve as the hands of Christ – I think the gun would get in the way – but that’s open to discussion.
If anyone wants to take a firm position on the whole ordeal, I think that’s fine. What should be keeping division from fracturing the church is a universal mourning over the loss of life and suffering – as well as constant prayer for not only the troops but those that they are fighting and all those that are being maimed and killed. The church should be committed to peace, and the care and the well being of all those created in the image of God.
The church shouldn’t be primarily concerned with the troops, the spread of democracy, national pride, or any other agenda that would better be held by the local VFW. So, instead of arguing political policy, I would take a cue from the protesters – where is Jesus in all this?
I very seldom get involved in discussions of this kind as I believe the only real way to change someone’s opinion is to get to know them and let them see my life. That being said….
I do not know that all of the war in Iraq is for the right reason but I know that some of it is. And I also know that God does judge us on how we respond to oppression and those who are being oppressed. He expected his kings in the Old Testament to wage war and His laws were all about helping people. His tirades and punishment were always for the proud and the affluent (I would say that most of us here in America fit that).
I have seen the people of other countries suffering at the hand of their government. And I don’t just mean doing without electricity or running water. I mean suffering death and starvation and torture. I am not sure what God expects of us as Christians or of governments.
I am just trying to get people to be involved in helping others.
Maybe the protestors of the war need to find something more meaningful to be involved in….like raising money to go to Iraq (if they are not too afraid of the insurgents) or some other country and really helping someone who is really in need. Any takers?
Don’t think that I am not speaking to myself in all of the above. I have not sold everything I have and given it to anyone.
VR, I really appreciate the response. I too usually try to avoid these online discussions – if for no other reason than if a post isn’t thought out as well as a thesis there are too many waiting to ambush instead of discuss.
I understand that protesters can/could do a lot of pro-active things that may make a more immediate impact on those that they’re concerned about. But, can’t the same be said of those that are advocating the use of the military? Military supporters could be advocating relief and ministry without the use of a secular army.
I would love to see more churches involved in ministry to the oppressed and marginalized, at home and abroad. I just see a lot of inconsistencies that are troubling with Iraq and that rationale…
For example: The political emphasis in discussions. The lack of mourning and anguish at the inevitable violence and innocent casualties. The focus on troop casualties instead of human casualties. The reluctance, or even resistance, to allow the gov’t to aid those at home (welfare is enabling, disabling, a private sphere, etc.) while claiming that the US Army is needed to aid these poor third world citizens – the gov’t an agent of Christian mercy or isn’t it?
Bottom line, the church should be able to have this discussion. I see problems arising when the discussion is not revolving around, and dominated by, Christian perspective and concerns. Surely a young Christian traumatized by the image of a dead Iraqi child is an inappropriate reaction. We should all be traumatized – not rationalizing it away with statistics or other pros and cons. A dead child killed in war is heart wrenching. I don’t think any Christian should push to overlook it in order to see the bigger picture. Mourn every instance of pain and then prayerfully consider the big picture. They go together.
Deriding those traumatized, and that are trying to react as faithfully as they know how, is not the appropriate response for a brother or sister in Christ. Should we not be mourning with them as we have the discussion? Some Christians despise all violence. Should that really be inflammatory? Can’t all believers understand that perspective to some degree – even if they don’t embrace it?
Some questions:
If Jesus’ message wasn’t political, then what did his mother, Mary, mean when she said, “He (God) hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble. He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.”
If Jesus’ message didn’t have something to do with politics, then why was he tried by Pilate?
If the church doesn’t have something to say about war, then who can we expect to say anything about it?
Isn’t the government acting “by the people, for the people?” Then, since my tax dollars are paying for it, and my leaders represent me, won’t I be held accountable for the things the government does at judgement day? If so, then I am going to REALLY need God’s grace, and I am WAY more guilty than I could ever imagine.
Finally, I’m curious…have any anti-war protests taken place at Harding? (I would hope so, but would be extremely surprised…)
(I really think that Jesus’ message is WAY more radical than a lot of readers of this blog imagine it to be.)
Our disgruntledness is a result of being members of a kingdom that is not yet fully realized. When Jesus returns and reigns supreme only then will peace reign. I’m not saying we don’t try, we just shouldn’t be surprised by anything.
As for this war, I can’t help but wonder if this is the war mentioned in Revelation, that begins along the Euphrates river and results in the death of 1/3 of men. Last time I checked, that’s where this war is occuring (granted, many, many conflicts have occurred there) But throw Iran into the picture with nuclear weapons and it could happen.
Terah,
Thanks for your service.
No one except Mike w/o a blog has even bothered to respond to your comments about most deaths in Iraq are by Iraqis and Al Queda. No one addressed the Iraqi’s using children as human shields. And no one has addressed how so many US soldiers are\will be suffering from PTSD due to Iraqi on Iraqi violence yet believe they are on a mission to defend the Iraqi’s from themselves.
And by the way, my friend pointed out to me some time ago, Pacifist are not very pacifistic in their responses.
Terah who is actually in Iraq should not be marginalized by pacifists. She deserves a response in an un-flippant manner. She is doing something proactive.
If you want to have a peace protest how bout you all pacific=st buy a plane ticket to Iraq and hold it there. Maybe the Iraqis will get the message to stop killing their own people. Or if not, you could stand in front of an Iraqi and take a bullet or piece of shrapnel for an Iraqi.
By the way thanks Mike w\o a blog for responding at all to Terah.
Leland,
Your request for the protesters to hold their little demonstration in Iraq is identical to that voiced by a Marine reservist at the tail-end of the morning’s event. I’m glad you didn’t follow yours up by spitting at people!
I think this all goes back to the point of the protest. Its not to necessarily end the war, but I imagine, the point is to point out to christians that blindly support whatever the government does that we as Christians should be held to a higher standard. We are supposed to stand with the marginalized. We are supposed to love our enemy, even Osama Bin Laden, and Ahmadenajad, whoever. And if we love them, we can’t kill them. Maybe that means we should take it further and go love them in person, and be willing to die. Maybe if a mass group of Christians was willing to do that, things might change. There are people who do that, Shane Claibourne comes to mind, as well as the Christian Peacemaker Teams.
Can you imagine if the entirities of the Churches of Christ, when war was decided upon, went to Iraq and said this must stop…. if we stood in the streets in protest of the Iraqi government and our own and said “What the hell are you doing?” Saddam and GWB if you don’t work things out, tons of innocent people are going to die and for what? And be willing to be slaughtered by our own military or the Iraqi Guard. That would be a message to the world. A message that Christ is more powerful than death, and love is more powerful than radioactive bombs.
I often wonder what the world would look like if we really believed in resurrection…..
GKB,
“I’m glad you didn’t follow yours (MY WHAT) up by spitting at people!”
And no I don’t spit on people, I welcome them into my home to eat pizza and watch The NBA basketball finals without deriding or bringing up their views.
I invited them to get to know them and let them know they are welcome in my home even if they don’t think like me! Didn’t spit on them.
Thanks Leland. My service is hardly service compared to so many. But thank you for hearing what I’m saying. I was beginning to wonder if people were even reading my words. And thank you Mike, for responding.
By the way, I want to reiterate that I firmly believe in the right to peaceful protest. I also believe in getting my hands dirty before I start speaking out.
To all of you who say that it would be better for us as Christians to come over here and serve these people of Iraq: (My personal opinion is that our men and women in uniform are doing just that…serving and protecting). Either way, if you don’t like the way it’s being done,why don’t you come to Iraq and see how you can help? I just happen to know that there is a flight on Babylon Air that is about to start running from London to Baghdad. Why don’t you all come on over? What are you waiting for? Instead of spending a semester in Oxford or Montivideo (both fabulous ideas by the way), why don’t you protestors (or anyone else who wants to help) put your money where your mouth is, and come to Iraq to serve the oppressed.
http://www.terahott.wordpress.com
Terah ,
Thank you for your common sense, real world evaluation of the situation.
Leland,
I wish more people would act like you. It was truly sad to see a Christian spit at a fellow Christian because of something like this.