Anti-War Protest
2007 September 21
Scenes from the ACU students anti-war protest for UN Day of Peace. (Read more here.)
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Once a year I play golf. This was the day. Nine holes with my brother and my dad. Loved it. I used to play quite a bit of golf, but then I became a Christian. (Just kidding, Rick, Milt, Chris, etc.)
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Can’t wait for this Sunday. Usually when Jerry Taylor preaches I’m away. But this week I’ll be there. He’s doing one of the six messages on Galatians. I’m doing the themes of scars, tables, crosses, water, and yokes. He’s speaking on fruit.
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*sigh*
Scenes of the Berkeley-ization of impressionable minds.
Although qb disagrees with Willimon’s politics in general, methinks he has articulated a much more coherent view than the sloganeering set demonstrates for us today at ACU. See his article, “The Sin of Smugness,” at
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_18_119/ai_91350113
qb
I hate to see ACU go in the direction of the maggot infested students of schools like Columbia and Berkeley.
Why is it that abortion is a “political” issue that the church should stay away from, but stuff like this should be celebrated?
Sad.
I’m confused. Are maggots inherent in disagreeing with this war?
Though I may have a different opinion than those who were at the protest, I thank God that I live in a society that, for the most part, accepts the U.S. Constitution and the freedoms enumerated therein. There have been few places in the history of this planet where such differing views as to war or not to war could be voiced with out fear of official reprisal. I applaud their courage to protest something that they believe to be wrong.
Does the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention know of the fly problem in New York City and the Bay Area?
I was there, and I didn’t see any maggots.
I did see a U.S. Marine reservist spit on people (or near people, at least…I couldn’t see if it made contact with anyone) who were silently protesting war (in general) as a means of finding peace. And I heard a U.S. Air Force reservist threaten to “f*cking punch that dude in the face” for holding a sign that intimated that Jesus identified with the victims of this war. Out of all the Pro-Bush, Kill-Saddam, and You-Suck slogans shouted out, those two were the ones that really stuck out to me.
Incredible.
I expect that as Christians we have a better response to people whose politics we might disagree with than calling them names. Let’s show some self-respect.
There is a lot here I don’t get.
How is all war “deceit”? (one of the posters held by a young lady) What is the maggot comment about? How do the pacifist folks feel about the story of Israel when Jehovah told them to take the land, and leave no survivors, just to cite one example?
How do folks who should be all about mercy and grace show such harshness (not to mention being insulting & condescending) about such issues? (from both sides) What is worth dying for?
There’s alot that’s worth dying for… but what is worth KILLING for?
I am continually frustrated with so many saying that both sides are being disrespectful…the comments on Mike’s post about speaking for the whole church and now this. If I hadn’t been at work on campus, I would’ve proudly stood with those students. From what I have heard and seen in the pictures, those students were respectful and peaceful and stood for what their hearts and the Holy Spirit are speaking to them as right and good. Maybe Jesus is calling to a new and more perfect way…where blood doesn’t have to be shed and we don’t have to send our sons and daughters to war. If our hearts are calling us to speak out, then we should speak out. I think that goes for the other side of the issue but I don’t believe that the spitting and the want for violence is called for.
Why is it always okay for the other side? I have stood for many years on what so many others would call the progressive side of the Churches of Christ and I have had to bite my tongue, and be gentle, and be the peacemaker…while what many would call the more conservative side of the church has called me names, and shook their fingers in my face, yelled at me and belittled me. Why can’t both sides be gentle? Why aren’t we both called to be respectful?
Not to put words in the mouth of the protesters, but this demonstration was about the ineffectiveness of any way to bring about peace. In that way, all war is deceit, because it claims to be a way to establish peace, when it cannot do so.
And Michael, I am a pacifist and I have no trouble reading those passages in Scripture. I don’t read them as a biblical literalist, which may be part of the reason, but you don’t have to discard whole sections of Scripture to be a pacifist, despite the assertions of one particular conservative pro-military blogger.
I wish I had a group at the Christian universities I attended that would have joined me or spurred me on in this sort of prostest. While I am not usually a fan of picket signs I did enjoy these because they werent abusive, demeaning or hateful. I am thankful that a small group of kids is looking deeper into the call of Christ on our lives and at least challenging the people around them to reconsider what it means to be a disciple of the Carpenter from Nazareth. Thanks for sharing Mike.
I am not a pacifist. But I don’t believe that the current U.S. war meets the standard of a just war. Not by a long shot. To that extent, I’m thankful for the protest. And although I disagree with absolute pacifism, I’m all for the freedom of speech, which is a political application of the Golden Rule.
Don’t these ACU students realize that Halliburton is making a killing off the Iraq war? Anyone who owns Halliburton stock has seen its value roughly quadruple since we invaded Iraq.
Are these “maggot-infested students” so unAmerican that they don’t believe in making a profit?
Two Years Ago, One of my friends came home from Iraq and his fiancee broke it off with him and put a restraining order because he was having mental issues as a result of his time in Iraq. One month ago, one of my friends from high school died in a fire-fight in Iraq.
I also have really good friends who go to Berkeley and they love Jesus and they have a deep concern and conscious for the Heart of God. One of my favourite things, too, about the Bay Area is how much people in those cities (although they have their setbacks) love the Urban Poor and seek to be better stewards of the Environment.
Many times, I actually find myself wishing I had gone to a school like Berkeley.
Is it even right to think of them as Maggot Infested Students?
It breaks my heart that we would call our brothers and sisters Maggot Infested.
I am the mother of one of the protestors. He is NOT maggot-infested, I assure you! He is a genuine Christian, concerned about the killing in a war basically founded on profit of American companies.
Since I do not live in the U.S., nor have I for many years, I have a different perspective maybe from the “average” American. What we hear about the war here is the American “interests” which include Iraqi oil, etc. And if you are very honest, you have to look through the “proud to be an American” idea and admit that, yes, there are interests in the war other than purely trying to “help” the Iraqi people become a puppet democracy.
Many Americans have no idea of the background of other cultures. Democracy will NOT work in all parts of the world. It looks nice on paper, but who are we, the American people as a whole (that’s how foreigners see us!) to think that we can push our way of government as being the BEST way?
The BEST way is for us to live in peace! Since freedom of speech is guaranteed in the American constitution, does ANYONE have the right to spit on others just because they believe differently than you? What about diversity? Do you view the demonstrators as a threat? They’re actually showing how 2/3 of the American people feel – if you don’t believe it, look on as votes are counted in our next Presidential election.
This is an emotional issue, one that could become divisive in the church. Feelings run deep on both sides. I am convinced there are sincere brothers and sisters on both sides of the issue, who love and fear God.
Maybe this is one of those things we should keep between ourselves and God (Rom 14:22) In that light, maybe those who organized a rally on a Christian campus made a mistake. That’s the opposite of keeping it between yourself and God.
There are those that would see the expression “peaceful demonstration” as an oxymoron. Unfortunately, the very word “demonstration” when used as an expression of political philosophy can dredge up mental images of burning buildings, fire hoses, personal injuries and property damage. For pacifists to use this mode of expressing their political opinion seems aggressive, prodding others to respond in not too pacific a manner. It can be responsible for egging others to respond harshly, to say the least….to defend their position with an opposing demonstration. I’m thankful that in the majority, these ACU students were not faced with harsh opposing opinions, that those in opposition to the demonstration respected their right of expression.
“…I am a pacifist and I have no trouble reading those passages in Scripture. I don’t read them as a biblical literalist, which may be part of the reason, but you don’t have to discard whole sections of Scripture to be a pacifist…”
Not to hijack, but what does “I don’t read them as a biblical literalist” mean? Which passages do you take literally? Are there any? Are there none? Given that everyone who reads scripture interprets scripture, this comes across to me as if you read the “peaceful” passages literally, and do not read the “non-peaceful” passages literally, based on your position/statements I have seen over time.
Please help me understand.
Last night I sat across the table from 2 Berkley grads. One, my nephews girlfriend, smart, articulate, driven and gifted. I don’t know her very well but am impressed with who she is in our few meetings. The other my Aunt Jean who turned 80 early this year. She graduated with high honors from Berkley in 49 with a degree in Biology. She has raised four children currently professors at four major universities. She was one of the first respondents to a new disease that was killing gays in Southern California in the early 80′s. She has taught in universities all over the world from the middle east to her local community college. She’s a cancer survivor, very anti war and a Christian. She’s the smartest woman I have ever known and this is which I base this statement on: If this is what the graduates of Berkley are like well I wish they were all Cal Berkley graduates. Blessings for those students who stood up for their beliefs, I can’t imagine them doing this with out first educating themselves.
Kathy, what planet are you writing from? You say that:
“For pacifists to use this mode of expressing their political opinion seems aggressive . . . egging others to respond harshly . . .”
Since when is holding hands and praying “aggressive”? Is anyone who uses their free speech rights “egging others on to respond harshly”?
Then, you defend the pro-war response, saying it was not as not “harsh,” and those who spit, shouted the F-word, and and told the protesters they should be bombed acutally “respected their right of expression.”
Have you read 1984 lately?
War is peace. Ignorance is strength.
Folks who persist in calling others “pro-war” need to spend a bit of time considering the term “nuance.”
Willimon is also a pacifist, but at least he opens the door to those who, having wrestled and anguished between the Scylla of oppression and the Charybdis of war, end up reaching the regrettable conclusion that in a given circumstance, probably only war can liberate the oppressed…
** It is quite possible to reach that conclusion without being pro-war.
** Smugness apparently knows no ideological boundaries, if these dialogues are any indication.
Folks who persist in calling others “pro-war” need to spend a bit of time considering the term “nuance.”
Willimon is also a pacifist, but at least he opens the door to those who, having wrestled and anguished between the Scylla of oppression and the Charybdis of war, end up reaching the regrettable conclusion that in a given circumstance, probably only war can liberate the oppressed…
** It is quite possible to reach that conclusion without being pro-war.
** Smugness apparently knows no ideological boundaries, if these dialogues are any indication.
qb
Scott,
“but what is worth KILLING for?”
My family is worth that. For the ultimate protection of my wife, children, family, when EVERYTHING ELSE fails, I am prepared to kill. If forced to make a judgment of one life over another, I will value the precious life of those who God has entrusted to me over the life of one intent on working evil against them. I pray that I will never be forced to make that decision.
I am grateful for ACU and the students who took this action of conscience. And, by the way, being a child of the days of the “maggot infested” places of our nation like Berkeley, Columbia and Kent State, I am thankful that at least a few middle class/upper class college students who also claim to be Christians are carrying on the great tradition of speaking truth to power gone mad.
Reading suggestion: Howard Zinn’s A People’s History of the United States.
qb: Thanks for refraining from smugness in your post correcting me for my misinterpretations:
“Folks who persist in calling others “pro-war” need to spend a bit of time considering the term “nuance.”
Willimon is also a pacifist . . .”
Silly of me to think that the counter-protesters were pro-war. I guess I got that impression from this comment left of gkb’s blog, under the picture of the guy in the vet’s T-shirt: “I support the Global War on Terror 100% ^ I was NOT a member of the protest!” (link http://flickr.com/photos/gregkendallball/1419018474/)
I also missed the part where the counter-protesters linked themselves to Willimon. Was that before or after they shouted “F*** Saddam” and said the protesters needed to be bombed?
I can’t believe ACU would permit such nonsense to go on. Don’t they realize all Christians are Republican and Pro-war? Good grief ACU, can’t you keep your people in line? Next thing you know they’ll permit a pro-peace African American to be a keynote speaker at Lectureship.
Edgar,
May I ask that you slow down a bit when reading so the intent and true content of what I’ve written is faithfully quoted? Where in the world?
“For pacifists to use this mode of expressing their political opinion seems aggressive . . . egging others to respond harshly . . .” The content was as follows: “Unfortunately, the very word “demonstration” when used as an expression of political philosophy can dredge up mental images of burning buildings, fire hoses, personal injuries and property damage. For pacifists to use this mode of expressing their political opinion seems aggressive, prodding others to respond in not too pacific a manner.” Your careful editing gave a totally different meaning to what I had written. Careful, please.
Since when is holding hands and praying “aggressive”? Is anyone who uses their free speech rights “egging others on to respond harshly”? Again, read what I wrote. I referred to the use of the word “demonstration” – nowhere did I refer to “holding hands and praying” as being aggressive. Again, please be careful when quoting another. You may be adding a nuance that is not present in the original writing.
Then, you defend the pro-war response, saying it was not as not “harsh,” and those who spit, shouted the F-word, and and told the protesters they should be bombed acutally “respected their right of expression.” I fear I must echo your original question to me. What planet are you writing for. I said NO such thing. What I did say was I’m thankful that in the majority, these ACU students were not faced with harsh opposing opinions, that those in opposition to the demonstration respected their right of expression.
I have not defended either side of this issue, rather expressed observations about the event at ACU. Your anger with me for having what you perceive to be an opposing question has, in my opinion, clouded your reading comprehension on this issue. Your interpretation of what you THINK I meant is of course, yours. My certainty about what I intended to convey is of course, mine. Sorry for the misinterpretation of the intention.
I hope we are all as passionate about our Lord’s church as we are on this issue (whichever side you are on!) I hope we love our Lord, and his church, enough to set aside our differences on non-salvation matters.
When differences flare up into emotional responses, it is time to cool of the conversation.
Pray for the peace of (name the city): “May those who love you be secure.” Psalms 22:16
Just out of curiousity, how do those of you feel towards veterans in your congregations? We have a number of men in their 70′s and 80′s who I feel I owe a great deal of gratitude for their service in WWII. One gentlemen still walks with the limp from shrapnel recieved in Italy. Were he and the others unwitting dupes? Or just unenlightened rubes who need the educated elite that pontificate here to set them straight.
I support the students right to voice their opinions. I also reserve the right to honor those who blood was spilled on distant lands to preserve that right.+
I hope we love our Lord, and his church, enough to set aside our differences on non-salvation matters.
I was under the impression that looking out for the defenseless and the weak, the “least of these,” is a salvation matter.
Monty,
Yes, you are right. I believe that in a moment of desperation I too would kill before allowing my wife and daughters to be killed. In a moment of desperation I might even kill before allowing myself to be killed. I’m not sure the “desperation ethic” is what we should be gauging our lives by. We have the opportunity, in the peaceful setting in which most of us live, to consider gentle, peaceful means of righting wrongs–means that may sometimes require much of us. I honor those who have placed their lives on the line in defense of their loved ones and countrymen(and countrywomen)but I also honor deeply those martyrs who stepped forward in times passed and died refusing to lift a finger to hurt thier enemy (Christ included).
I don’t claim any solution here. I only long to set before myself the nature and image of Christ, meditatively, so that when the time comes and I am cornered, I will know truly that I exhausted every Christ-like avenue available before I fell to my own human weakness. After that, if I take a life, I know without a doubt that I will spend an eternity in deep need of and thankfullness for God’s mercy and grace.
Of course, it shouldn’t take killing to bring us all to that realization even now.
I praise the God whose nature placed inside us causes even the most heroic of warriors to be pained, sometimes to the point of depression and despair, by the faces of those they have killed in the “line of duty”. There is enough of the God of Love inside each of us that most of us still see war as an affront to God’s intent for his creation.
I hope we can continue as a people to honor the warrior without honoring the war. That honor should drive us also to prevent at all costs making warriors of our sons and daughters.
pg
Those countries that do not desire Democracy are very wise not to. It is a horrible form of government. The U.S. is supposed to be a Constitutional Republic:
A constitutional republic is a state where the head of state and other officials are elected as representatives of the people, and must govern according to existing constitutional law that limits the government’s power over citizens. In a constitutional republic, executive, legislative, and judicial powers are separated into distinct branches and the will of the majority of the population is tempered by protections for individual rights so that no individual or group has absolute power. The fact that a constitution exists that limits the government’s power, makes the state constitutional. That the head(s) of state and other officials are chosen by election, rather than inheriting their positions, and that their decisions are subject to judicial review makes a state republican.
And:
Constitutional Republics are a deliberate attempt to diminish the threat of mobocracy thereby protecting dissenting individuals and minority groups from the tyranny of the majority by placing checks on the power of the majority of the population.[1] The power of the majority of the people is checked by limiting that power to electing representatives who govern within limits of overarching constitutional law rather than the popular vote having legislative power itself. John Adams defined a constitutional republic as “a government of laws, and not of men.”[2] Also, the power of government officials is checked by allowing no single individual to hold executive, legislative and judicial powers. Instead these powers are separated into distinct branches that serve as a check and balance on each other. A constitutional republic is designed so that “no person or group [can] rise to absolute power.”[3]
Could countries in the Middle East for example handle this? Or are you saying they prefer a Theocracy or Dictatorship instead. Or are they just not capable?
Democracy is mob rule and a form of government the founders despised.
By the way, I have no desire to force any form of govt on anyone. If this is a war for oil then let’s open up Anwar, drill off Florida and leave this part of the world to their own devices.
gt,
I’m glad God didn’t leave us to our own devices.
Scott,
As am I. But the prevailing attitude here seems to be GB is no better than Saddam, we have no business in this war, Iraqi children are dying because of us, and we should leave. Which sounds like we should leave them to their own devices.
Yes, God does allow us make bad choices. We all have. We all must allow for others’ bad choices as well. Free will reigns.
Perhaps we should all speak our minds and act as God leads us and not allow ourselves to move down the slippery slope of attaching ultimate truth to our own perspectives or actions. I’m as guilty of that as the next guy.
Thanks gt… this is a tough issue to be sure!
Kathy,
Well, thanks for the response. But I don’t buy your assertion that the term “demonstration” is so shocking as to constitute aggresion on behalf of the protestors.
gt,
Nobody said anything about dissing veterans. Why bring it up?
Alan,
Yes, I am passionate about the Lord’s church. So passionate that I’m willing to try to get the Lord’s people out of their comfort zones on an issue like this. My tax dollars are paying for Blackwater to shoot into a crowd of unarmed civilians. I see that as a big deal, and I am trying to stop it.
All,
Thanks for the chance to share my voice here. Sorry if my manner was brusque.
May the God of Peace be with us all.
I wish folks would get as passionate about the “lost” as they do for war issues! Seek and save the lost ….
I wish people would realize that salvation isn’t about 5 steps and making sure you get all the way dunked under water… its about redemption and restoration of not just individuals, but the world. And if we are being redeemed, we will live radical lives, because we hope for what we have not seen, a world where swords are plowshares, where humanities default setting is love, where everyone treats every human being like they are their wife, child, aunt, grandparent, etc.
And once I was lost, and I thought that some deserved to die to protect me… even if they are innocent. Now I realize what the “greater love… than he lay down his life” verse is about willingly dying with the promise of resurrection rather than continuing the violence than only begets more violence. Praise Jesus for the salvific power of the cross.
JLM, you’re just trying to stir up trouble, aren’t you…
Quoting: “I wish folks would get as passionate about the “lost” as they do for war issues!”
How are the lost Iraqis going to be saved if they’re dying by the tens of thousands before we can share the gospel with them? What sort of evangelism plan are we working with here?
I have worked on the mission field in a developing country. In many areas of the world now, life is very very difficult for American missionaries due to the war. The present situation means that you have to work extra hard to establish trust before people will be ready to believe anything you say.
Kirk,
Before you baptize someone, do you ask them their position on the war? If not, how can it be a salvation issue?
Alan,
To be honest, I don’t get the whole “salvation issue” approach to anything. As Justin said up above, salvation is about the redemption and restoration of humanity. That has real consequences for the world. I don’t divide up God’s will into “things you have to get right in order to be saved” and “things we shouldn’t discuss because they aren’t ‘salvation issues’.” Everything that God wants for the world is part of his plan of salvation and redemption. If God’s teaching about caring for the least of these doesn’t apply to impoverished and brutalized Iraqi families, then I don’t know who it does apply to. Matthew 25 sure looks like it has something to do with salvation, and the metric isn’t what doctrines I got right, but how I served the weakest and poorest.
We aren’t talking about Sabbath observance or meat-eating here. We’re talking about thousands of innocent humans dying year after year in this ill-conceived war. If the gospel isn’t good news for them, how is it supposed to be good news for anyone?
“….Render to Caeser what is Caeser’s.”
Isn’t it interesting that Christ never protested against Rome….which was an incredibly imperial, bloodthirsty..yet civilizing force in the world…much as the USA is accused of being. Rome shed more blood in its own interests than the US could ever be accused of….yet Christ said nothing against Rome.
Christ was not political. It is amazing to me that Christians on both sides of this issue cannot understand this. The only evil we have any power over in this world is the evil within ourselves….period. If we can remember that there is no authority on this planet that has not been given from above, then I think we could all relax a little and concentrate on ourselves. If we are sent to war, then we should render this service to Caesar in good conscious as we fight the evil within ourselves.
All governments on this planet are self-serving….none are blameless…just weaker. For this reason, a government cannot be held to the same moral standard as an individual, it exist to serve the interests of those within its borders and it will do things that would be considered morally wrong on an individual level. To bring it to a much smaller level, we would all agree that we put the interest of our own children or spouse above the interests of others….if we did not, we would be immoral.
It seems that the pre-occupation with the evils of this politician or that branch of the US government is a great excuse for many of us to ignore the incredible evil that exists within the borders of our own skin. Re-direct the outrage.
It is a dangerous exercise to use Christianity to bolster your anti-war stance…this can be argued against very effectively. The same goes with the pro-war stance…obviously. When you tie your Christianity to a political cause, there will be many on both sides who reject the gospel for political reasons. Christ set the perfect example by remaining a-political. FOLLOW HIS EXAMPLE.
Mark,
I can live with the idea of beign apolitical. In fact, I used to (try to) follow that plan…. I didn’t vote….
I still very firmly believe that politics should not be mentioned from the pulpit, and in the local congregation should basically not be discussed; it ineveitably leads to division.
However, I believe these issues are very important, and one of the great things about a forum like this (or like lectureship) is that we can have an open discussion about these issues without (perhaps) causing discord in the Sunday morning service.
Many Christians have strong views on abortion, which is also a political issue. Are you saying they should keep those to themselves and not try to influence others?
If you are saying Christians should be apolitical, like Jesus, should Christians refuse to say the pledge to the flag? After all, no man can pledge fealty to two masters.
Hello, my name is paul goncalves. I organized this protest at ACU to at least get someone to discuss this issue…
Looks like it worked.
If you were upset with us then I would suggest not being around ACU campus for a while…
Me and my maggot infested friends are here to stay.
I have blood on MY hands.
May God have mercy on our souls
Kirk,
The boundaries of unity are defined by who is saved. That is why salvation issues are relevant to the discussion. If by pressing our point we cause division among those who have been adopted as sons and daughters by God, we are harming the church, and disobeying a direct command from God. Instead, we should keep our point of view between ourselves and God in those situations.
Mark,
Excellent points. Note what John the Baptist said to the soldiers who came to him for baptism:
Luk 3:14 Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?” He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely–be content with your pay.”
Especially note what he did not say: that they should not use force, nor that they should stop serving as soldiers.
Sometimes I look back on my college days and wish I had been more engaged in the world outside of my own little campus. I am thankful for those students who care about the people not only in their own lives, but the people spread throughout this entire world that God created.
Paul, thank you to you and your friends. May many of us go and do likewise.