“This Message is From Churches of Christ”
All right. You’ve got the money — you’re free to put whatever you want on radio or television or in the newspaper. But I so often wish that groups wouldn’t say that this is from “Churches of Christ.”
There’s a television program that comes on here that’s associated with Churches of Christ. This past week the speaker kindly explained why women have to keep their mouths shut in church.
And that’s a message from Churches of Christ? Or just faithful Churches of Christ? Maybe a list needs to run of those who are faithful enough to support the message.
I couldn’t disagree more with his message. And yet people in Abilene hear that it’s from Churches of Christ.
This post isn’t about the issue of women and gifts, per se. Time will take care of this, anyway. Churches will realize they were wrong — just as on the issue of race.
It’s about presenting yourself as representing a whole denomination. (I know, I know, we’re not a denomination!) It would be like me presenting this on the internet as a message from Churches of Christ. It’s not! it’s my ramblings. It’s what I observe . . . what I believe.
Well if the Exclusive Brethren is a evangelical church as has been stated with the convictions of some here .Then maybe it is being suggest that the many cases of wrongful excomunications , suicides and depression is all part of evangelicalism too .Of course one would hope some real reserch has gone into these convictions , just as the book is reserched .But often i think minds are made up on face value ,and with that im not surprised things get to carry on so easily the way that they do .The face value support feeds the fire .Still one thing we can hold on to is that somebody doesnt take things at face value but instead wants the truth .And to know that is truely heartwarming ! .
Yes Robert Easter i was once tied in with this , my whole family sufferd through it and still does .I know of much more than of the face value that is seen and have had a person experience with much many many suffered for .I accept it !as many have , but i will not quietly stand by and say nothing when it is suggested that people who might not take things at face value and live by convictions and speak up of those convictions in conversation and debate ! are being unchristianly and judgemental .This is judgemental in itself is it not ? .And meanwhile while all this taboo and pussy footing around carrys on ! the fire is fed and the fire rages on ! , and people suffer because of it .
Rex google Exclusive Brethren (eb) and then click on a site called peebs.net There you will find a comunity of a very (small) portion of those who have been effected and suffered .Also you can find a site in that google serch called The exclusive brethren christian fellowship this is a site with their own point of view .
But the thing is just because they have the title “christian fellowship” does that allow for them to claim for them to be telling the total truth ? .I agree that this could be the case on both sides ! i am not asking that people take sides ! .What i ask is that people serch things out and dont go on face value ! .Im convicted that this is quite wrong to do ! im convicted that it fuels the fire ! , and i will not stand by quietly when people suggest people are being judgemental ! when all they might be doing is having a open mind and being not prepared to go on face value but seeking for real conviction of what is right or wrong .My (personal) conviction is that this attitude of not questioning in its self is unchristian and of bigotry .
Seek out your own personal convictions people ! that is not being unchristian or judgemental that is being fair and well informed .
Rex,
My personal allegiance is to the church Jesus said He would build. Not to a denomination. Not a fellowship within the church of Christ but a fellowship with the church of Christ.
Time will take care of this, anyway. Churches will realize they were wrong — just as on the issue of race.
Interesting comment. How about this instead…
Time will take care of this, anyway. Churches will realize they were wrong — just as on the issue of sexual orientation.
On the denominational question, He is de vine, we are de branch.
David Willis, it sounds like you’re looking for blogs to use for blowing your own political whistle. “Churches realising they are wrong?” It sounds like a pretty broad statement to me- The issue is not about “churches” but about the Church. This thread got started over one, aberrant, group, (and, yes, there are exceptions within that group, thank the Lord!) claiming to be the entire Church because they said so. Also, we have individuals who refuse to see a difference between the Church and the world at-large, and then throw a fit if they think they do see one. Jesus created us, and He laid down His life to make us holy. Anything that violates His plan either in Creation (explained for us, twice, in Genesis) or in redemption does not belong. No one is being mean or cruel in recognising that God is quite able to have done, be doing, and complete what He has said, and that it is only reasonable for us to submit our own lives to the fulfillment of His purposes in and through us. Rather than debating what is or is not permissible according to what standards we can choose or manufacture for ourselves, is it not much wiser to seek out what it is that He expects of us, and is wanting to bless us with?
I think Ray B is correct .And so how can this happen if people are not willing to accept that some churches are wrong .Trouble is if people question things they get shut down and excomunicated .Nothings changed though because many wanted to do this to Jesus .
Of course churches are wrong take the dooms day carry on for instance , nothing more than a cult ! right .
Robert Easter you accuse somebody of “blowing your own political whistle ” , are you sure you are not guilty of the very same thing yourself .
You say “rather than debating what is or is not permissible etc” , well without debate and some action how else can cases such as dooms day be averted from happening .
Hey, Dusty.
Yes I agree with Ray B., and said so. Like in Keith Green’s song, “He is de Vine, and we are de branch!”
If I may ask you, by what standard do you judge “churches” to be wrong? Which churches? All churches, from your second paragraph- without trying to be rude, I’d really like to know if you see yourself (as it seems in the above) as qualified to dismiss two thousand years of prayer and scholarship so quickly. I’m currently reading some stuff from Gregory of Nyssa (4th Century) which is awesome.
Accuse? There is something going on in the various Christian blogs with people logging in to stump for a particular agenda, trying to steer discussions of whatever it used to be into a narrowly-defined question of homosexuality as some kind of new and more highly-evolved ethic. I saw some commonality with that trend in that post, and said so. But as far as politics, no, I try not to advocate for any party, except to try and invite who I can to the party that God’s
Peace,
Robert
Well Robert i admit “are wrong” was the wrong words to use ,there i admit i was wrong ! its so easy to do isnt it when we realise we are not always right .And it doesnt hurt a bit ! only our pride is what makes us think that it does .
Could be wrong ! might have been a better way to put it , and honestly that is what i meant .By what standard you ask , well by the book and the standard within , and by debate together .But this debate needs to go further than the walls within the church that somebody visits .How else will what Ray B talks about happen , and until it does many people suffer .It all comes down to the way things are translated doesnt it ,and i do think it gets a bit political if we stand by and say nothing sometimes .Kind of suggesting its not happening in our chruch so it doesnt effect us , that moves away from what Ray B has suggested does it not .
It would be good to hear more from Arthur , i see you suggest the philosophy of the church he spoke of as Evangelicalism . Knowing a little myself about them and what actually goes on within that church , i question that judgement .Does Evangelicalism include deceit and splitting familys often for wrong reasons .Does it include making certain laws and excomunicating members for them ,then later removing these laws and making it ok .Should Evangelicalism be compared with something that has caused such widespread devision depression and even suicide .Would Evangelicalism be involved in the use of large ammounts of money to sue and silence any that might try to speak out .
These are questions we need to think about and ask ourselves about dont we ,if we agree with what Ray B says is it right that we should seperate ourselves from thinking and debating and even acting upon these things .
If the church and religion is to survive in the long run , i think it need to be open to debate and widespread discussion .To often doors are slammed shut when discussion takes place , it can even happen in forums such as this .And im just trying to amagine Jesus slamming the door in somebodys face .Although many would have liked to see him do so and were ashamed of him dwelling in the house of a woman of shame .So are we like jesus do we follow his footsteps , or do we follow the footsteps of those that were ashamed of him and slam the doors in the face of those with whom we disagree not even willing to discuss matters .And if so i ask is this really infact Evangelicalism .
Seriously Mike! Please turn comments on this thing off. Enough is enough.
Hey, Dusty-
Some of the details I’m not real firm on, like your meaning of “bythe book and the standard within” so I’ll just try and respond best I can without running this too long.
So far we’re totally on the same page. We all need to learn to pray, and to listen, and then to deal with the issues. Any shortcuts will only make matters worse.
Actually without doing all the reading, I think the term then was Exclusive. A sect that grew up in the 19th Century.
Dusty, here we go with that wide brush again! You seem to be claiming, by asking such pointed questions, that all these things are patently true, and everyone who might be labeled as such is then guilty if only by association. Are you speaking from some personal experience that has you angry at “evangelicalism” for something?
I’m really wondering about your sources- especially the part about Jesus “dwelling in the house of a woman of shame,” Let me ask you- it looks like this thread is about to get snipped. If these are matters that you are really concerned about, please click on my link and we can discuss it further on the email link there. I know a little about these things, not all that much, but I have some good resources to draw from, so maybe we can get some of these questions answered.
Peace.
David Willis, it sounds like you’re looking for blogs to use for blowing your own political whistle.
Huh?
Last word.
There is, in the “spirit of this age,” an idea that says that it is wrong to say that any message is wrong. Everyone has the right to believe as they choose and for anyone to claim to actually be speaking the truth gives all the rest the right to reject them as “judgmental” or “intolerant.” This immediately puts every religion in the world on the “high ground” and singles out Christianity as some kind of disease. Unless, of course, we can “only believe” the subjective parts about peace, love, and happiness, and toss out everything about God and Christ, personally.
Arthur, if I read your post correctly you recognise the hypocrisy in the group-driven Exclusivism which effectively says “we are the way” when only Christ can legitimately make that claim. You even refer to large numbers of people who have been harmed by it and who see that it is wrong and dangerous, so how is it “judgmental” to warn others of its dangers? I’m not very bright, and I admit it, but to me that would be like if you were to warm people of a huge hole in the road, and drivers suggest that it was only your opinion that the road was dangerous but they were good drivers, or even condemn you for having inspected the road without authorisation.
You and I both know that Exclusivism is a fork in the road, and that fork leads to disaster. Is it not better to warn people than to sit by and “hope for the best?”
Somehow, I’m getting replies to this thread forwarded to my email,but not seeing them in this page!
Mike wrote:
“It would be like me presenting this on the internet as a message from Churches of Christ. It’s not! it’s my ramblings. It’s what I observe . . . what I believe.”
REPLY: I agree. I do not want Mike saying that anything that he says represents me, or our brotherhood. However, after Robert Easter replied:
The main “embarrassment” concerning the C of C is their claim to be the church of Christ. They reject any mention of salvation by grace, and anybody not of their membership is bound for hell. Though they may be “independent” from one assembly to the next, there must be some kind of consensus or, like the Exclusive Brethren, an ad hoc “pope” someplace keeping them all in line if the biggest variation from the “conservative” to the “progressive” is how many songs they sing, sitting or standing!
They teach “baptism for the remission of sins” so that (1.) baptism is what remits sin (not Jesus’ blood, or faith in His blood), and, (2.) the baptisee must have their mind totally focused the remission of sins for the sins to be remitted. Otherwise, or in case any part of the body doesn’t get completely immersed, they had better try again!”
I find it ironic that in a post denouncing someone speaking for the church, Robert finds the gall, as a detractor, to speak for the church. It gave me a chuckle and I am sure the irony was lost on him.
In the long run, I would rather someone in the church to characterize our teaching, rather Robert, since he hardly has a grip on our belief.
Dan
Yeah, Dan, I do confess to having my share of gall- good for digestion, I’m told. Irony’s healthy too, keeps us thinking ourselves too “weighty.” Not sure how that works..
Seriously- please forgive me. I had no intent to offend anyone with a heart to follow Jesus- though possibly to rattle the chains of some who are too content where they are to look ahead to where He might want to lead them.
I do confess, I misread Mike’s post at the first, then laughed at myself when I realised what I had missed! He saithe professions of the folks I have known, and the claims of the “official” literature I had seen in CofC church buildings.d he didn’t identify with the “message” in the program, and from my experience in the Deep South there ever was only one “message” coming from any of the CofC. I wouldn’t presume to tell you what you believe, I was only reporting what I had seen and heard.
God’s deepest peace be always yours!
r.e.
Thanks so much for your participation in this discussion. So many are showing that we can disagree but still find a fundamental unity.
Mike, you are most gracious to this old hard head, and I thank you!
Last Word
Robert – I’m not sure why you’ve received replies to your email that didn’t appear here. I have not deleted any, and I’ve released any they were caught by wordpress.
Don’t know either, Bro. Not that I’ve lost a lot of sleep about it. I still haven’t figured out laptops, or hit meters for that matter. Blessings on ya!!!