All right. You’ve got the money — you’re free to put whatever you want on radio or television or in the newspaper. But I so often wish that groups wouldn’t say that this is from “Churches of Christ.”
There’s a television program that comes on here that’s associated with Churches of Christ. This past week the speaker kindly explained why women have to keep their mouths shut in church.
And that’s a message from Churches of Christ? Or just faithful Churches of Christ? Maybe a list needs to run of those who are faithful enough to support the message.
I couldn’t disagree more with his message. And yet people in Abilene hear that it’s from Churches of Christ.
This post isn’t about the issue of women and gifts, per se. Time will take care of this, anyway. Churches will realize they were wrong — just as on the issue of race.
It’s about presenting yourself as representing a whole denomination. (I know, I know, we’re not a denomination!) It would be like me presenting this on the internet as a message from Churches of Christ. It’s not! it’s my ramblings. It’s what I observe . . . what I believe.
Nice.
(this agent comment brought to you by coc)
Mike. You are such a gentleman! I went to their web site and read the transcript from Sunday. I can safely say that “In Search of the Lord’s Way” does not represent Churches of Christ, they just think they do. And that’s very dangerous!
So many times these types of programs have little or nothing to do with reaching outsiders. Rather, they are an attempt to keep the flock in check. Either you line up behind the official position or you’ll incur some wrath from the powers that be.
Not long ago at a COC college, one of the faculty made the public statement, “It is the position of this university that there will be no unity with the Christian Church as long as you use the instrument.” Excuse me but what gives certain individuals the idea that they speak for all staff,students and faculty at a university or an entire church for that matter. I didn’t know we had popes in the COC.
Mike:
Go find Charles North and point him back to Kaufman. This happens every time we let him wonder off back to Abilene. He gets all worked up and we have to bring him back to our little land of milk and honey and calm him down. Something must be in the water out there!!!
Of course, there’s nothing that stops folks from broadcasting another point of view and signing off “This is a message from other Churches of Christ” ….
I think it is right for any one person to speak for the Churches of Christ since we are all “Seperate and apart” from one another.
We are non-denominational. Each has it’s own leadership and makes its own discissions. I do think it is funny how you can now go into a “traditional” church of Christ and know what to expect as far as worship (2 songs, prayer, 1 song, Lord Super, etc) and you can going to a “progressive” church of Christ and know what to expect as well (welcome,5 songs standing, prayer, be seated, few more songs, scripture or communion thought, communion, few more songs, sermon, offering, all with power point and praise team). 
I was a worship cordinator in a congregation and it was one of my responsablities to get people together to “participate” up front in worship (prayers, wait on table, table prayers, etc). I would go around and ask men in their 40’s 50, 60’s & 70’s do you mind leading a prayer. The reponse of course: NO. Wait on the table: NO. Pass tray:NO. Greet: NO. So, if the men aren’t willing to do it. Who is left? I think the older generation is afraid as they see the identity of the church changing they are afraid that doctrine is changing along with it. We must live out the function of the 1st Century church in our to much a difference in the 21st century. We must live the gospel of Jesus Christ. We must show others around us grace, mercy, love, and kindness of Jesus Christ.
And while we are fussing and fighting over how worship should be done, people on the outside of our buildings are lost. Needing Jesus Christ. It is time for us to settle these issues and get our focus on being missional.
I heard a politician last week on national news say, “Down here in Texas we are of the opinion that. . .” and although I am certainly Texan, it would be an understatement to say that I disagreed with his opinion.
I suspect that this politician and maybe some church representatives claim to represent a group because they are too wimpy to claim the opinion as their own, to stand up and say ‘this is what I believe.’
The church has always looked outside to those who are lost. It is not just an awareness now. We can teach doctrinal soundness and love people. Actually out of doctrine should come mercy , love and compassion. Have we arrived ? By , no means . But we can also say that the church of Christ also has a very long history of good works and evangelism , or the word being used now , missional. The word is new but the concept is as old as the first church of Christ in Jerusalem.
Great point, Mike. This is what scares me about this new satellite Gospel broadcasting network … can’t think of the name of it … with COC programming 24/7 … and the list of programs makes me shiver. How do you communicate in a community that “we’re not like that” … without looking like we’re airing our dirty laundry in public.
To be honest Ray B, I don’t fully comprehend your emphasis on doctrine. Jesus never placed doctrine at the center of his good news. If anything he marginalized notions of doctrine (e.g., the sabbath is made for man). Thus, IMHO, I think any talk about doctrine (as typically conceived in our fellowship) as a central concern is a grave error. Wrong right out of the gate. If Jesus is our hermeneutic then doctrinal conversation should always be a marginal conversation. The early church was called The Way. Not a way of believing but a way of living. To miss that point is to, well, miss the entire thrust of Jesus’s life. Again, in my opinion.
John Dobbs,
Excellent point.
Last night in some discussions our fellowship is having about making changes to break down barriers to reaching the broken people of the world, someone made the comment: “Will we keep saving people to the church of Christ, or will we save them to Jesus Christ?” Seems like the emphasis for too long has been on getting them into the club, and as Joel Manners stated, keeping them in check. Shame on us.
Richard B, another excellent point!
John Dobbs raises a good question. How do we deal with the message that is broadcast in this manner? The reality is it leads to a perception that we have to deal with in our own neighborhoods and communities. We have to wake up to the fact that in the minds of those who watch, listen and hear these messages this “perception” becomes reality. Should we go as far as speaking out and saying that what is being broadcast on these channels is “false teaching?” My opinion is that in some cases we MUST. In others cases we need to show clearly by the way we are living and working together as church families that we don’t agree with these positions. Finally, we need to always remember that those with these differing points of view are our brothers and sisters. We’re called to love them just as much, if not more, than anyone else. It’s not easy. But that is what Christ called us to do.
By our love, not a bunch of rules and regulations that had to do with their culture, by our love, by telling of the saving grace of Jesus Christ.
Amen Terry.
Richard B.
By docrine I mean that we can preach, teach and live to be like Jesus , teach doctrine and still love people. My point being we can do all of it and still touch people in significant ways. As far as doctrine is concerned, I mean the great doctrines of atonement, imputation , grace, the incarnation, etc. Yes, Jesus was concerned about the doctrines of men but was also concerned that we teach the doctrine/ teachings about His nature and His person as the Son of God . His apostles taught what was given them by the Holy Spirit. Doctrine that is healthy /sound will reveal Jesus and will bring us to be a church of mercy , love and compassion.
They are wrong Mike? Sounds to me a lot like the old c of c. Your comment about “them” being wrong supposes that your view is right. If that is your interpretation, fine. Do not fall into the trap of what you so often talk about disliking about the c of c; claiming you are right and everyone who disagree’s with you is wrong. What’s next, only churches who have women participate in worship will have their members in heaven? I’ve said it here before, why are we trying to reconcile with the Christian Church when we can’t even reconcile within ourselves?
Preacherman, if you came up to me 5 minutes before service and asked me to participate without any preparation, I would say no as well. Try giving people some notice, and your participation will increase. I would not lead worship by picking out songs 5 minutes before service. It’s unprofessional and the worship service deserves better.
Ray B,
I’m sorry about the misunderstanding. If those issues are what you mean by “doctrine” then we are in agreement. I thought you meant a list like this:
Non-instrumental music
Male elders
Lord’s Supper on Sunday and only Sunday
Baptism by immersion
Stuff like that. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Chris said: “It’s unprofessional and the worship service deserves better.”
My guess is that as the early Christians worshiped in the catacombs professionalism in worship was VERY important.
I agree that I don’t like people misrepresenting “me” when they use the same name I use. It is a bit like identity theft. Just as it is hard to repair your credit when that happens it is hard to mend a reputation when the public airways and newspapers have been used to spew venom at each other. Maybe that is why our church name should just reflect where we meet. It always saddens me that I have to follow the name of my church with an explanation.
Richard B.
Actually , I meant those you mentioned as well. I believe we should teach the whole will of God. It does not harm people when we teach the text if the truth is taught in love. Some will reject what we teach, even the cross. It was considered offensive when it was first taught. However, we are taught to teach the word and live by it. We do not have to leave any of it out. All of the word is inspired and is profitable. Each Christian will have to make a decision to obey or not. All of us can pray , study and then in love , look around to see those who are hurting and need our compassion. But doctrine , all of doctrine does not stop us from caring about people. Instead it should compel us. This is a very good discussion. Thanks for your insights.
As one who grew up in the Independant Christian Church (as did my husband) we have found a church home in this C of C in Houston that is so inclusive and has never pushed a doctrinal agenda or presented anything other than Kingdom wholeness and presentation/study of the word. It is strange and dare I say a bit sad that 1 speaker on 1 station in 1 town can say they speak for the whole?
It reeks to me of Benedict’s recent decree about RC churches. John Paul II strove (strived? did strive?) so fiercely for unity, it’s almost as if Benedict said to himself, “Well, everyone love JP, and I need a schtick, so I’ll be the pope that’s a big jerk.”
All this to say–I think that’s a punk move to pull, saying that you speak for everyone in the Churches of Christ.
I think that you can rest easy Mike and Charles. I think that the only people that watch these programs are shut-ins or elderly Christians who have been disinfranchised by their younger brothers and sisters in Christ who have pushed their home congregations in a “progressive” direction. I’m sure that it brings these viewers comfort to think that the message is brought to them by “Churches of Christ.” There’s no need to snatch that last bit of comfort from their minds. Pretty soon, they’ll all be dead, including Mack Lyon, and the problem of traditional coC’ers will snuff itself out.
God help us!
Bendictus,
My guess is that as well. However, in “today’s world” when we are not meeting every single day as the first century church did, the worship service must be coordinated and organzied. What would your thought be on a worship leader who got up on Sunday morning and proclaimed, “let’s take requests this morning!” It looks unplanned and would most likely not lead to encountering God through worship.
One other thing struck me as I watched Mack deliver his sermon. Jesus was absulutely RADICAL in his mininstry. He absolutely hammered pharasee’s and the “old law.” Why didn’t he appoint female apostles, or direct Paul to do so? I AM NOT one who thinks that women are less than man, and DO NOT start with the authority ove a man or usurping issue. That is not the point with me. Most, if not all, women are probably smarter than me. It is inarguable that an INSPIRED WRITER WROTE THESE INSTRUCTIONS. Someone needs to write the “Newest Testament” with what we now think is socially relevant today from 20 AD.
If one group feels compelled to use Church of Christ name and another group feels such a name has too much baggage and leaves wrong impression with folks, why doesn’t the second group merely change name?
Ray B,
I’m sorry I keep misunderstanding. To clarify, you are saying that the following:
Non-instrumental music
Male elders
Lord’s Supper on Sunday and only Sunday
Baptism by immersion
are, in your words, the “great doctrines of atonement, imputation, grace, the incarnation.”
Do I have that correct?
If so, I’ll go back to the position of my first comment in this thread.
This type of religious broadcasting that purports to represent an entire denomination (how the ‘outsiders’ think of the CofC) is embarrassing to find when it shows up on the God Channel (UK) over here. But then I remember that most of the folks who surf the God Channel are only doing so out of bemused curiosity because they are just so incredulous that Christianity from America puts on such a parade in the first place.
I feel for ya, but if you’re around any ‘outsiders’ (a term of derision in itself) for any length of time, you know they don’t have near the kind of issues as the ‘insiders’ associated with the ‘tribes’ who broadcast this ilk.
Get on with the real mission at hand! Life here is too short.
This is the kind of crap that makes me want to abandon the denomination of my youth. One foot is out, as soon as I find the place, the other foot will follow.
I marvel that stones can be thrown at “traditional church of christ” attitudes but it’s okay to throw stones at shut-ins, elderly and think that the death of older preachers will solve all the problems.
Sometimes I wonder if we are trying to converting people to Churches of Christ or convert them to Christianity. Of course many would say that the two go hand in hand but there is obviously a big difference in approach. When I try and reach out to an outsider and/or to someone who is not familiar with the gospel, I want to use the precious few moments that they will give me to present to them the life-saving and changing message of Jesus. If we use the time that the lost give us to simply preach about church organization or what we don’t do then aren’t we wasting our time that should be spent trying to convert people to the gospel? I just think that many in Churches of Christ are so off in their approach to outreach. They want to focus on “converting people from the denominations” and making sure that people within our movement are all following the same pattern that they find in scripture instead of focusing upon telling others who do not know Jesus about Jesus. It’s no wonder that many in the outside world do not take us seriously!
Kent
P.S. We are a denomination
For the record, “In Search of the Lord’s Way” does scroll through the list of supporting gongregations at the end of each program. At least where I live.
Chris,
I know better now. In even calling and scheduling, in men refusing the we see the minister doing everthing (which I don’t mind) or the other alternative. Thanks for pointing that out. I appreciate your needing me to clerify my view. Thanks brother. Oh, did anyone get to hear Jeff last night? I heard he was awesome!
I don’t even have to ask preacherman why he would be request men to conduct worship at the last second. I know the answer because I was in his shoes for many years. There was an order of worship posted or mailed out weekly, but those men were not available that particular Sunday morning and didn’t bother to tell anyone. So, he was scrambling around looking for fill-ins. Been there done that.
I now worship in an assembly where the Praise team practices weekly, the minister/speakers are fully in coordination with one another, every word spoken has been prayed over with a theme attached, and, yes, women are equally involved in all aspects of worship. Coincidence? No.
Do I miss the good ol’ days of watching Brother Smith frantically flip through his song book as Brother Jones franctically flips through his Bible 1 minute before worship looking for something familiar? Not at all.
How about we stop printing crap in newspapers, or broadcasting crap over airwaves that “say” we’re Christians. How about spending money on buying a Congolese refugee woman who works in the ACU cafeteria for $6 an hour a used car so she can get around town, instead of sermonizing on t.v. so you can feel good about yourself for fulfilling the “Great Commission?”
Did anyone really pay attention to Landon Saunders the other day?
Eddy, I said that “tongue in cheek.” I was trying to cheer up our “progressive” brothers and sisters. My Grandmother is one such person who worships with Brother Lyon every Sunday. If it wasn’t for him, she would have no church. The “baby boom” elders at the church where she attended for years have been enlightened by the liberal/contemporary movement and have managed to run off most of the elderly Chistians.
Christians (sorry)
Thank you, KentF.
The following scriptures apply to both sides of this disputable matter:
Rom 14:1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.
Rom 14:22-23 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
2 Tim 2:23-24 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.
The fact is that at least 95% of Churches of Christ *do* believe exactly as he said. I read the transcript and frankly I think that he was kinder than many, if not most, of the preachers who preached on this subject while I was in the CofC. It seems a little odd to get all worked up because they are teaching what the majority in the CofC believe.
I am now in the Episcopal Church where I am allowed to serve upfront. I can attest that the last minute substitution of servers happens here too even though there are both women and men scheduled.
Troy, I would love to know how old you are. At 65, I find myself open to many ideas that I would have never dreamed of in my youth, but also holding on tightly to many values and, I believe, truths that have been with me since my youth. I really hate to think that my days are numbered and that my death will bring relief to fellow Christians.
Richard B.
I will try again. What I am saying is that all the doctrines need to be taught. Not just the ones you listed but all of them . And to teach doctrine is to bring life to people.
Richard B.
All of doctrine is important
Richard B.
Yes, included.
It’s like the having a black sheep of the family that you always have to explain how you are related to them. You love them cause they are family, but you alway have to explain about them and sometimes even have to apologize on behalf of your whole family for their actions.
When we lived in TX it was clear that no one knows how to make chili there. They make this greasy, meaty sauce that looks like canned dog food and feed it to their children in the name of Good Texas Chili. Those of us who have lived outside of the Lone Star State know that there is better fare available. So when I lived in TX I fed this better chili to those who didn’t know better. Their tastebuds were enlightened to the wonderful, fullness of real chili. Perhaps you just need to feed those around you better chili and let them figure out what they have been fed is not so appetizing. But for those who haven’t had real chili, at least they are getting some nutritional value off of the greasy stuff.
Ray, I respectfully disagree that “all doctrines need to be taught.” The core principles of the Christian faith that Richard listed earlier permeate the NT. But with CoC tradition that has become doctrine–say non-instrumental music, for example–I surmise that if someone who had heard no teaching regarding the matter were to read the NT, he wouldn’t arrive at a non-instrumental stance, or even find that the NT says much about music in worship period.
Ray B,
You say that “all doctrine is important” but I’d like to nuance that a bit.
Take, as a case study, two bits of “doctrine”:
A) All elders must be male.
B) Jesus was the Divine Son of God.
Okay, we can make assignments of “importance” in all kinds of ways. What might make a bit of doctrine “important”?
Well, one criterion would be how vital and/or central the doctrine was to the Christian faith. Using this criterion would you classify A and B above as “equally important”?
If you say yes, I think we’ll have to part ways. We are playing by different rules.
If you say no, then I think you’ll need to revisit your statement about the “equal” importance of doctrine.
I read this blog from time to time, and have never posted a reply before in my life. After reading today’s post, I am appalled and discouraged at how awful some of you are to those who do not believe exactly what you do. Why are we going on and on about Mack Lyon and the “lies” he preaches, when we should be happy there is a program for people to hear something from the Bible, from God’s word? Can you discredit Mack Lyon with Scripture? What exactly is he preaching that is false? Are you telling me that those before us who have worshipped for thousands of years are lost because they didn’t use instruments or “allow” women to lead prayer/singing/whatever in the worship service? Or that people today are lost because they are honestly trying to study and do what the Bible teaches? Attitudes need to change. No one will want to listen to people who are trying to ram stuff down their throats and come across as holier than thou - and that goes for both sides.
Gin, OUTSTANDING! Thank you.
Sandra - I may still be misunderstood. The point that was trying to make is that most “progressive” coC’ers are not content to co-exist with traditional coC’ers. They rush to extend tolerance and acceptance to anyone with “far out” ideas in the name of love, however they won’t extend the same courtesy to their own brothers and sisters in Christ. They are quick to complain about being represented and spoken for, but they have no problem deciding for others what worship is most pleasing to God. They have labeled you and Landon Saunders dinosours and are surprised when you have something pertinent to say. (See the last post)
As for me, I’m in my 30’s. I, like most other conservatives, see plenty of room for change in the church. I would just like to see us change for the better. That’s not going to happen if we abandon beliefs just because they are long held ones.
Wow Troy - don’t attach any labels there while you’re at it. I’m sorry to see such bitterness and venom in your outlook on the church.
Gin - please point to me where someone has given eternal judgement to someone for “not” having instruments or women in worship?
And, we wonder why folks can’t sit down in reasonableness and unity and discuss issues.
Gin,
I’m glad you commented. I don’t comment here much either, though I do check in pretty often. I don’t hear most people posting on this blog implying that those who aren’t “progressive” or who held the traditional views of yester-year are “lost”. I do hear, occasionally, tho opinion that they may be wrong. For that matter, we are all wrong about something–probably many things. The difference is that some traditional stances HAVE said that if you’re wrong about quite a few particulars, then no matter your heart or God’s grace, you ARE lost. I think most of the folks who are labeled “progressive” are suggesting in one way or another that we have constructed too many ways for others to be “wrong enough to be lost”–ways that God never intended or specified in scripture.
I am offended when I hear others binding things in the name of the “Church of Christ” or especially in the name of “Christ” that God has never bound us with. We all have our view and opinions, but we must be clear with others–as Mike has always been to my knowledge–when we are speaking our opinion… but not “God’s edicts”.
Too many people who wear the name of “Christian” make God into thier personal marionette–filling HIS mouth with thier own opinions– rather than humbly submitting and refusing to judge “another man’s servant”.
Hey all I am someone that is pretty liberal (I believe women should be able to lead, I believe instrumental music is not a sin, I dont believe cofc is the only ones goin to heaven you get the point), but the problem I have with many so called progressive churches and institutions is that they seem to condemn the so called conservative churches. As if they are in the way of the progressives actually doing stuff. You might not agree with them but many of the churches labeled narrow minded and conservative do great work for the Lord. I am in a pretty conservative Church and I disagree with my elders on many doctrinal issues but I love the shepherding heart they display to our community.. So I think stuff like condemning what one side of the Church of Christ is saying is just a waste of time and takes away from our mission Jesus has left us to do. Quit yapping about the problems and just do it!
Chris C,
I hope you continue to be able to function dispite your “progressive” ideas. I found myself in a church that essentially gave me two alternatives: be quiet, inert and keep your ideas to yourself… or leave.
After a year or so of pain–ours and theirs– we left. Unfortunately, if we don’t value variance in perspective… if we want uniformity above unity… we place parts of the body on the other end of a tourniquet.
I am amazed - flat out amazed - at how freely many of you are to blast your brothers and sisters in Christ. What right have you to be so hateful to those who have been baptized into Christ, the same as you? I am thrilled to see a few of you, really trying to stand up for what is right. There are some good comments here - Thanks, Alan, for bringing us back to scripture on opinions. There will always be a difference of opinions, of one flavor or another, always have been. But what do you do with those differing opinions? Blast each other in a very public way? Or have you forgotten how public this blog is? Or do we try to use love, to accept each other and work together.
Some of you speak out of both sides of your mouth “I love the Lord, I love the lost, I’m missional!” And then berate god loving, god fearing people for having a difference of opinion! Shame on you!!! Have you read I John lately???
1 John 2:9
“Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.”
We have the same situation here in TN. A CofC in middle TN weekly airs the most ridiculous dribble on behalf of “Churches of Christ.”
One solution is to do what an increasing number of us are doing: gathering in house churches under no name but Jesus. That way, we’re not embarrassed when people ask, “What church do you go to?”
I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.
Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit - just as you were called to one hope when you were called - one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Wow. Just checked in. Interesting day. For the record, I didn’t condemn people more conservative than I am.
I said:
1. Please don’t take something like this topic and announce that it’s what Churches of Christ believe. We aren’t uniform, and last I heard there is no central body — not in Texas, not in Oklahoma — who makes the decisions.
2. His position on women is wrong. Yes, as I said, that’s my opinion. I’m becoming more and more convinced that only time will take care of this.
RAN,
I agree–and I hope my comments weren’t taken the wrong way. I dearly love my brothers and sisters whom I don’t gather with anymore. I don’t condemn them, but I fear that they have set up standards that may prevent them from growing in Christ. When we set up road blocks to certain questions or lines of thought, we insure that we cannot grow in particular ways. It’s essentially a doctrine of isolation rather than a ministry of reconciliation. I don’t, however, condemn those folks who may be trapped inside a system of their own making… I’m just prayerful that God can bring someone else to help them grow–as He continues to bring people who facilitate my own growth.
Is anyone else having to fight back smiles — listening to people from conservative Churches of Christ complain about others not being loving?
I needed a bit of good irony today.
It’s programs like this that keep many of us totally embarrassed about announcing where we are members.
Richard B.,
I have fully explained what I meant in earlier posts. I was told by some blog program that I was being repetiive , so I guess I am being monitored.
There is no doubt that the gospel is of first importance . I Cor. 15 : 1 - 3. All my point is that it can be taught and so can all doctrines and we can still lovingly reach people.
It is too bad that we have come to a time , in our brotherhood , of reverse legalism where if some one has a real conviction about scripture that all of a sudden it means that person is cold, unloving and out of touch. I have found that those I have taught and baptized and continue to disciple greatly appreciate an honest confrontation with the living and abiding word.
Lord have mercy on us all.
Don’t be surprised if God makes an end run around this blog and the entire contemporary movement.
I read this post earlier in the day and was distressed by some of the responses. Now I am in more distress to see the explosion. I have yet to see some of the things that people are being accused of. I have seen a mindset.
My problem is the mindset by many in the Churches of Christ. {We are “The Church” — just like the church in the first century and if you are not doing it just like we are, then you are wrong.} The biggest problem with this mindset is that if they looked closely at the scriptures and compared tit for tat, they would find they are no more like the first century than the man in the moon! How can they? Lifestyles are different, the world is a different place. The way God communicates with us is different in many ways. We don’t have the son with us in person!
The other problem is where you draw the line on Gospel and scripture. All Gospel is scripture, but not all scripture is Gospel.
Now don’t crucify me for that last sentence. Not every word in the Bible is Gospel. The Gospel is a person, not scripture and not words in a book. Gospel is the truth of Jesus and him crucified. It is the person of Jesus Christ. When we bank what we do in the two hours we meet on Sunday morning on this concept, then it all falls into place and it doesn’t matter that I worship differently than you do. It doesn’t matter that I have classrooms for Sunday School in my building. It doesn’t matter that I allow all races and colors of people to attend my worship service. It doesn’t matter that a woman is reading a scripture or playing a keyboard while I worship! Just that I worship Jesus!
I have heard it said “The Churches of Christ” is not a denomination. That is so far from the truth. We may not have a board of directors or pope to dictate rules, but we certainly seem to have a set of rules many think we should follow!
I’m outa here!
Maybe we’ve given “Scripture” too privileged a place in our movement.
Maybe.
I’m just tired of people playing Scripture as a trump card.
Chris C, I find your last post to be among the most salient points anyone has made on here today. Conservative and progressive CoC’s alike can be lights to the world and further God’s kingdom in their community. Conversely, they can both be utterly feckless when it comes to furthering the kingdom when they place defending or rejecting peripheral doctrine over living as Christ.
To live by the pattern of the New Testament is to be non- denominational. How do we know anything about Jesus and His church that He purchased with His blood , where He is the head except from the word of God ?
I just finished reading the transcript on the website and it sounds like what I have always been taught and used to defend. I don’t think Mike’s blog entry was meant to start a discussion on instrumental music as much as it he is just saying how he doesn’t want someone speaking for all Churches of Christ. That is a problem with other groups that try to be autonomous. For instance someone I am close to just went to work for a Methodist church and when we were talking about it he said, “but it is a Free Methodist church - not United Methodist”. My son attends a independent Baptist church and they are quick to say “We are not Southern Baptists.” You know have you ever thought about just being “Christians” Oh yeah, I think that’s been tried. I do understand because I too have said things that tried to separate me from what others perceive as being the Church of Christ. Of course we could all become Roman Catholic and we wouldn’t have to deal with these problems. Or just live as we perceive Jesus would want us to live - and I know he wants us to love.
OK - I just reread Mike’s blog and realized he didn’t say anything about IM. I think my comments are still appropos but after reading Mac Lyons transcript on women I also read his transcript on acappella music, so that was on my mind.
What I took from Mike’s post was this, and this alone:
One (individual or church) should NOT represent the whole. Period. It’s not that novel of a concept.
We already have ONE who represents us all…..and our mission is to point others to HIM, not to us or any of our congregations.
DU
“2. His position on women is wrong. Yes, as I said, that’s my opinion. I’m becoming more and more convinced that only time will take care of this.”
Mike, you’re walking a fence here then. Do you honestly represent here, through your blog and as a leader (even though Charles Barkley may disagree) and role model for “the Church” that you are less wrong for saying Mack was wrong? Come on! You would respond swiftly and decisively if/when someone calls you out for your beliefs, which you impart on Highland through your influence, as wrong.
As this man did, don’t you go out and impart your view and interpretations on other churches, christians AND STUDENTS? You do the same thing. I love you Mike, and I listen to you every chance I get. But you are off on this…my opinion.
IF the church (COC) “allows” women to participate in the worship service and use instruments in their worship service, what makes it the church of Christ?? Why not Baptist or Methodist?? The only other differences I know of are communion every Sunday and immediate baptism (as opposed to once a month). Or has this changed too?
What did Landon say? Get the people stuff right and the religion will be okay?
It all seems so silly, doesn’t it?
How about this for a new credo for the CofC: We are the people who love others wihtout a word until they ask, “Why?” Ooops. . .I’ve already said too much!
“Churches will realize they were wrong — just as on the issue of race.”
That’s a pathetic comparison-unless the bible says “As in all congregations of the saints, blacks should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission as the Law says.”
or
“A black person should learn in quitness and full submission. I do not permit a black person to teach or to have authority over a white man; he must be silent.”
I don’t want any single person defining who we are as a Church. I understand where Mike is coming from and what many of you are saying as well. I hope that we will all strive to be one as Jesus prayed in John 17. Setting our differences aside.
Sense we are all independent from each other, having differnt leaderships, different sizes, different backgrounds, histories, locations, understand that we are all one in Christ, get behind one cause- reaching the lost.
Pretty much the whole discussion has just made me very sad, and I really fall on neither side of the issues dealt with. I am left depressed. Our world is so broken and it seems like our time has been wasted today.
I agree with Chris, Mike. You are like the pot calling the kettle black-my opinion.
you know what..works speak louder than words no matter who you speak for…sometimes things are so black and white that it seems rididculous but its those things like reaching out to your fellow man or woman that speak loudest in the end..and sometimes even the most spiritually together or most with it churches miss that one..
I’m going to take a cue from my bud David U.
Why isn’t there a television program whose agenda is solely to preach Christ … to tell His story … to say what He said … to relate what He did … to encourage others to love as He loves and live as He lived?
Why isn’t there a television program that ALL churches of Christ would be delighted to support, reaching lost people with nothing but Jesus - so faithful to the Word that churches of other stripes and hues would want to support it, too?
I think the answer to that question says as much about all Christians - whatever our stripe and hue - as we need to know about where our hearts really are. And I, for one, am ashamed of where I find mine.
I was just wondering do other denominations have as much trouble as the CofC does on who should be involved and how worship services are done. It always amazes me how much time and energy is focused on those two hours. I just hope we dont forget that Monday thru Saturday is way more important. I think if Jesus was really worried about how we conduct our worship service he would have had a lot more to say on the subject. Most of His teaching seems to be focused on the Monday thru Saturday. If we live only to bring glory and honor to our Father then all the debate about what to do on Sunday mornings seems trivial.
Chris,
Please be cautious with your tone. Mike, I think, has earned more respect than you are giving him on his own blog.
Ray B (and to any others that want to join in),
Let me come at this from another angle. Recall, the issue we discussed above is about the relative importance of different doctrinal stands. My earlier examples were:
A) All elders must be male.
B) Jesus is the Divine Son of God.
Here’s another observation about these doctrinal statements and their relative importance: Who squabbles over these statements?
Christians squabble with Christians about A.
Christians squabble with Non-Christians about B.
This observations goes to the heart of the Restoration plea about being “Christians only.” That is, if Christians are squabbling with Christians it is an internal and divisive debate. Thus, any good member of the CoC should back off that issue, grant freedom, and declare adiaphora.
But if we have B, a Christian versus non-Christian squabble, we really do find a vital, non-negotiable issue. Something worth getting worked up about. So, in the end, this is how I see it:
If it’s a Christian vs. Christian doctrinal squabble, the issue isn’t central or vital. And we should grant scope. Otherwise, we are guilty of violating Jesus’s final plea: That we may be One before the world.
So my concern here has very little to do with the liberal vs. conservative battles within the CoC (and the “within” here is damningly diagnostic in my mind). The issue at stake, for me, is fulfilling Jesus’s dying wish.
Last night I decided to re-watch Inherit the Wind, the great movie about the Scopes Monkey Trial. I highly recommend it for several reasons, but for purposes of this discussion to see the potential dangers of an unhealthy reliance on “doctrine.” It’s an interesting contrast to be processing the movie today while also reading the comments, particularly the exchange between Ray and Richard. Keep up the thoughtful banter…I think it adds greatly to search for truth.
Actually, the most salient person was GKB! Go back and read his 2 comments. And please, stop all this “I can’t believe you’re talking so hateful towards your brothers and sisters nonsense.” This is an OPEN forum for discussion - the kind of discussion that has been stifled for years in CofC. I too am enjoying the irony of hearing “conservatives” complain about “hateful” speech.
Gin - your comments are not “outstanding” - they are emblematic of the rift between us. You speak of women and instruments in terms of salvation, I do not. Here’s an example of a lie that continues to be propogated by mainline CofC - instruments in worship will send you to hell. This is close to heresy because it insults the gospel and flies in the face of all Christian history. Never has worship ever been a salvation issue. Read Galatians - slowly, like you’re reading it for the first time. Paul was ANGRY at the perversion of the gospel with extras that have nothing to do with faith in Christ.
And Troy - chill dude!!!
Well you can’t say “C of C”ers don’t have opinions!
I think Mike’s origianl point was lost long ago. He didn’t name names or condemn anyone… He just said he didn’t like someone else speaking for the body of believers he worships with. And he said he disagreed with the man. Yes, in his opinion the man is wrong. But I didn’t read the part where he suggested disfellowshiping anyone or saying they were lostfor etearnity. Did I miss something? I’m sure the other guy also thinks Mike is wrong and if he blogged would have said so on occasion. He probably would have had a fit if Mike televised his beliefs about women in the church in the name of the churchs of Christ. I believe both men love God AND I believe his grace will cover both their wrongs and hopfully mine too.
Sigh.
This is exactly what turns people away from churches. Not just C of C’s but all churches. I have Baptist friends who cringe at all the headlines that come from the Southern Baptist convention every year. But so many in our demonination (and it is a denomination as far as the world is concerned)feel we can’t just say “I’m a memeber of the Church of Christ” without having to explain what that means or what kind of Church of Christ we go to. That seems unique to us. Maybe it is becasue so many have felt free to represent their beleifs as ours… I read an interesting blog post about that recently…
God bless all the crazy Cope blog commentors…and I mean that literally.
PS I think it is possible to believe that someone is wrong about something, even doctrine, and still believe they are fellow heirs to salvation. And I grew up Church of Christ. Amazing? I hope it’s not too amazing.
It is rather aggravating sometimes to have to name the denomination instead of just the name of the local congregation. At the same time, maybe that’s one of the strengths of the CofC fellowship - the expressed and insisted on freedom given in Jesus to hold diverse opinions, and all hanging in there with the same “title” of fellowship. I find it ironic, charming and in most cases, God-glorifying.
“Where there is Jesus, there is Freedom!!” Yay!
It is rather aggravating sometimes to have to name the denomination instead of just the name of the local congregation, so when asked, I usually just use the name of that local body. Usually, I find the person asking already knows from what fellowship it comes. At the same time, maybe that’s one of the strengths of the CofC fellowship - the expressed and insisted on freedom given in Jesus to hold diverse opinions, and all hanging in there with the same “title” of fellowship. I find it ironic, charming and in most cases, God-glorifying.
Where there is Jesus, there is Freedom!! Yay!
It’s interesting. All my life I heard that we “let the Bible speak” and we did. But we needed to add something to that. Letting the Bible speak means nothing if we don’t also allow the Spirit to guide readers into all understanding. It seems we like to let the Bible speak and then micro-manage the spin ourselves. Could it be that people can read and discern without any help beyond the promised H.S.? I know, I know… I like to “wax elephants” as much as the next guy, but maybe LISTENING is what is needed–listening both to others and to the God who makes his home inside us.
Amen Kathy!!!!
I believe that if we strive to do the will of God, get rid of the labels, fusses, fights, nit pick, but focus on what God has done for us. Saving us. Redeeming us. Understanding that price that was paid so that we could become a part of HIS church. The church of the first century was incredible to say the least, it turned the world upside down. The church has changed throughout the years. As the church changes its identity I think the older generation is afraid that doctrine is going to change as well. We must convince them that just because the identity of the church may change and that the essentials will remain the same. We will live out the function of the first century. If we live out the function of the first century we will in the 21st century turn the world upside down and make the difference. As we seek His good, pleasing and perfect will for our lives. As we surrender to God and say it is no longer I but Christ in every aspect. Then, revival, real authentic Christian revival as we show the world grace, mercy, kindness, love, sacrifice, gentleness, goodness, peace, and on and on the attributes of God the world will see the Kingdom on earth. I pray that we will make that differnce. I pray that we will stop focusing on stupid stuff like worship style, leadership style, fellowship issues, and love one another so the world will see Christ in us. May the world know God is alive, his Holy Spirit lives in us, and He loves to have a personal relationship with everyone that he has created. Relationship is what it is all about.
I love what Mike Cope writes in His book, “ONE HOLY HUNGER: When God Is All YOu Want” that has changed my faith and relationship with God. It has made me come to the relization that know God is what life is all about and letting other know God is what my role of a minister is all about and the only way for us as a church to do that is get the focus off of self and put the focus on God. Mike I hope it is okay to share these words that have changed my life. “We can buzz through the Old Testament without ever pausing to ask, “What is the text trying to accomplish?” As a result, we can become proficient in biblical information without becoming closer to God or more sensitive to the people he created. Don’t misunderstand me: I’m all in favor in learning the information of Scripture. Biblical illiteracy isn’t a virtue! But Biblical knowledge shouldn’t be the goal of our reading. Scripture was written to reveal to us a God who longs for relationships. It pleads with us to long for him as well. The goal of Scripture isn’t mids filled with facts about God but hearts using those facts to be full of his presence.”(p15). We need to let other people who don’t know God to have a change to know him before it is to late. God give us the time, opportunity, and chance to let people have that relationship with you. May the Church of Christ be known for that in the future. May you be pleased with us. May we bring you glory, and honor.
Tracy,
My tone was not inapproprite at all, I’m sorry you read it that way. I absolutely respect Mike, I do disagree with him on this point, which is what this forum is about. My apologies if you, or Mike were offended. BTW, I did say “I love you Mike, and listen to you whenever I can.” It is a fact that Mike has more of an influence on others than most preachers, christian leaders etc. He would be quick to defend his stances if questioned on them publically, I am certain.
Tracy,
I re-read my post, again. I did not mean that what influence Mike has at Highland and ACU is wrong. My punctuation was terrible. The point being Mike would defend his stances if someone called them wrong or compared them to racism and so on…
Mike you are just made because you are trapped in a coc and as long as half of your congregation teaches at ACU you will stay trapped
Mike:
You analogize to race and then say that only time will solve this. But had Martin Luther King, Jr., and others waited on “time” to take its course, race relations in 2007 would likely mirror 1957. As he said in the Letter from Birmingham Jail:
One of the basic points in your statement is that the action that I and my associates have taken in Birmingham is untimely. Some have asked: “Why didn’t you give the new city administration time to act?” The only answer that I can give to this query is that the new Birmingham administration must be prodded about as much as the outgoing one, before it will act. We are sadly mistaken if we feel that the election of Albert Boutwell as mayor will bring the millennium to Birmingham. While Mr. Boutwell is a much more gentle person than Mr. Connor, they are both segregationists, dedicated to maintenance of the status quo. I have hope that Mr. Boutwell will be reasonable enough to see the futility of massive resistance to desegregation. But he will not see this without pressure from devotees of civil rights. My friends, I must say to you that we have not made a single gain civil rights without determined legal and nonviolent pressure. Lamentably, it is an historical fact that privileged groups seldom give up their privileges voluntarily. Individuals may see the moral light and voluntarily give up their unjust posture; but, as Reinhold Niebuhr has reminded us, groups tend to be more immoral than individuals.
We know through painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct-action campaign that was “well timed” in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word “Wait!” It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This “Wait” has almost always meant ‘Never.” We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that “justice too long delayed is justice denied.”
and more ..
I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
and more …
I had also hoped that the white moderate would reject the myth concerning time in relation to the struggle for freedom. I have just received a letter from a white brother in Texas. He writes: “An Christians know that the colored people will receive equal rights eventually, but it is possible that you are in too great a religious hurry. It has taken Christianity almost two thousand years to accomplish what it has. The teachings of Christ take time to come to earth.” Such an attitude stems from a tragic misconception of time, from the strangely rational notion that there is something in the very flow of time that will inevitably cure all ills. Actually, time itself is neutral; it can be used either destructively or constructively. More and more I feel that the people of ill will have used time much more effectively than have the people of good will. We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people. Human progress never rolls in on wheels of inevitability; it comes through the tireless efforts of men willing to be co-workers with God, and without this ‘hard work, time itself becomes an ally of the forces of social stagnation. We must use time creatively, in the knowledge that the time is always ripe to do right. Now is the time to make real the promise of democracy and transform our pending national elegy into a creative psalm of brotherhood. Now is the time to lift our national policy from the quicksand of racial injustice to be solid rock of human dignity.
So, Mike and all: Is this a matter of time, or of action?
Jeff
Awww, thanks, Charles. I’ve been called a number of things, but “salient” hasn’t often been one of them!
Most of the churches of Christ are so far removed from the 1st Century church, and from the one envisioned by the Campbells and Stone, that perhaps a study of our history would do us all good.
Much of what is passed off as “doctrine” is nothing more than someone’s preference that others adopted as their own, and then branded everyone else “lost” who does not agree. The truth is, that since it’s inception in the early 1800’s(not the 1st century), the Restoration Movement and the churches that claim it as their heritage have been evolving. Even the founders changed many of their views and what they found in the Bible over the course of just a few years. It was the early 1900’s when the zealots came to the forefront touting “the law of silence” (translated=”this is what I like and if you don’t agree I will dis-fellowship you).
Some of our most strongly held positions are ones most difficult to prove from the Bible, unless one suspends logic and violates the most fundamental rules of Bible interpretation.
One must ignore history to not agree that we have preached the “church of Christ” at the expense of Jesus Christ and the result is that we have thousands in our churches every Lord’s day whose loyalty is to the church and not to Jesus. If I am wrong, why are we not known as people who love Jesus Christ and those He died for instead of being known as people who fight each other about how we do church?
Just like the politicians running for office this fall, our record speaks for itself and we can’t deny it. We can ignore it, lie about it, or spin it, but it is what it is and it an’t pretty.
Lets be for Jesus and for getting the good news to the lost and be busy about His business of redemption.
Grace to you,
Royce Ogle
My concern is neither liberal or conservative. I am not always really sure what a person means. The world must hear about Jesus . The gospel , His death and being raised is of first importance. Telling an individual about salvation and being free from the guilt of sin. Teaching the atonement, grace , etc is critical. But it is also very important to teach about the necessity of repentance. Immersion / baptism for the forgiveness of sins. And all the doctrines/teachings of healthy instruction. Each Chrisitan life must be one of care and love. Preach Jesus and live for Him. But also teach the whole will of God. It does not damage people because the scriptures are the word of God. And we can have unity around the gospel.
Hey I have heard several people point out the irony of the conservatives being hateful….to me that is belittling your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ….once again I am saying this as someone who is a so called liberal or progressive. Just a thought
“Mike, you’re walking a fence here then. Do you honestly represent here, through your blog and as a leader (even though Charles Barkley may disagree) and role model for “the Church” that you are less wrong for saying Mack was wrong? Come on! You would respond swiftly and decisively if/when someone calls you out for your beliefs, which you impart on Highland through your influence, as wrong.”
Chris, do you understand the point I’m making? I don’t mind someone telling me I’m wrong. Of course, I think this brother is wrong. Way wrong. Poor interpretation of scripture. But I don’t think he’s lost. I’m not condemning him. I’m not disfellowshiping him. And I could be wrong about his being wrong.
What I don’t want is for him to present this as the position of Churches of Christ. What if I hosted a television program and pushed some of the things I think and said it was a message from Churches of Christ? Think he’d like that?
I’m just not understanding your tone here, Chris.
“I know that the Bible is a special kind of book, but I find it as seductive as any other. If I am not careful, I can begin to mistake the words on the page for the realities they describe. I can begin to love the dried ink marks on the page more than I love the encounters that gave rise to them. If I am not careful, I can decide that I am really much happier reading my Bible than I am entering into what God is doing in my own time and place, since shutting the book will to go outside will involve the very great risk of taking part in stories that are still taking shape. Neither I nor anyone else knows how these stories will turn out, since at this point they involve more blood than ink. The whole purpose of the Bible, it seems to me, is is to convince people to set the written word down in order to become living words in the world for God’s sake. For me, this willing conversion of ink back to blood is the full substance of faith.” - Barbara Brown Taylor, Leaving Church
Well….I was tempted to make several comments since this morning (before it got so “heated”), but most were sarcastic in nature & none of you know me well enough to know when I’m kidding. So….I refrained. However….I’m ready to speak….and not sarcastically. The posts are far too serious for that now. Here’s the deal….no one likes to be spoken for. I wonder how God feels when we speak for Him? How do you think He likes us using His own Word to bash each other. I can’t stand it when I hear my kids say, “Well, MOM said….!” as a tool to hurt their sibling and put them in their place. Look….I’m Switzerland on this one….but I’m pretty sure that as much as we all hate it when people put words in our mouths….God does too. (Of course, that’s me speaking for God. Oops! I’m guilty too!)
Mike,
OK. That’s the second tone comment I’ve had, so my tone did not come across the way I wanted to so sorry. I actually have no tone to come across, I just thought I saw some inconsistencies (sp).
I want to comment further but fear mine has become clouded by my lack of ability to write what I mean. For the first time in my life I’m speachless.
mike,
i know this is a late post, or at least there are so many comments that it seems that way. anyway, before you move on to the next thing, i am curious about something.
first, i will say that i totally understand your main point in this post. i don’t want mack lyon speaking for the churches of christ. and i too am not looking forward to the launch of gbn. (ironically and disgustingly the church i minister to, would want lyon speaking for them.)
for my part,i am also not interested in restoration theology (RT), not even a little. there are several hallmarks of RT that i find cannot be sustained biblically. generally speaking the short list involves areas such as soteriology, worship and church polity. most of what i find useful/biblical is not even unique to RT anyway.
as regards polity, the relationship between pastors and evangelists in RT seems to be completely uninformed by the pastoral epistles. and so on. but after reading the transcript for the show you mentioned (and seeing some fairly poor exegesis) i’m curious where you disagree.
lyon comes across as condescending and smug. and there are some conclusions he comes to with which i would disagree. as well as the aforementioned poor exegesis.
thankfully none of has to rely on lyon to shape our thinking and in my own study of scripture there are a few things that are fuzzy still. (which i don’t lose any sleep over.)
but, it seems thoroughly biblical to say that the Lord exclusively calls men and gives them the responsibility for the ministry of the word and prayer, as well as the pastoral ministry.
note: i am not concerned with who “serves in worship” or deaconesses, etc. but i am genuinely curious how you view the pastoral ministry. your post is somewhat ambiguous. (which i get because that’s not what your post was about.) if you have the time and don’t mind giving us (maybe just me/lots of people know you, but i’m not one of them) a little insight into your thinking.
I’m confused. When Scriptures say an elder is to be the HUSBAND of one WIFE, doesn’t that mean the elder is MALE?
As none of us were there at the time, we all assume that Jesus attended synagogue regularly. He knew corporate worship, but was it the corporate worship we command today? We know he was a Rabbi who had garnered some respect by the time his ministry to change the world began. That means he probably knew every scriptural nit that could be picked, textually and doctrinally.
When Jesus used his special divine talent to signal the commencement of his God-ordained ministry, he performed in the background at a wedding party in Cana and not as a gifted orator in front of enthralled listeners with bums on seat in a synagogue service. Not quite the upfront guy, at age 30 his mother had to coax him into jump-starting his ‘career’. (Moms do that a lot.) Rarely in his three short years do we have him on re