Comments on: LBS http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs Sniffing out the work of God in the world... Fri, 10 Feb 2012 03:21:20 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Scott http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs/comment-page-1#comment-67478 Scott Thu, 20 Sep 2007 18:48:13 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs#comment-67478 First, There was a reason God didn't allow David to build his temple-- he was a man of war. Where is God's temple today? Secondly, I'm not sure that making a whip means he beat people... it certainly doesn't mean he killed anyone. I'm not against strong methods of persuasion--especially when God's temple is threatened. And who is God's temple? I think lots of very strong persuasion is appropriate when the innocent are threatened. For Christ, the strong persuasion meant HE took the fall--even for the one doing the killing. I don't know what all that means about war, but it certainly doesn't make me idolize the warmongering depicted in the Bible-- even AS it was a working out of God's will. If God wants to orchestrate a war, so be it. I don't have the omniscience for that sort of thing, and I certainly haven't demonstrated the Grace necessary to balance it out. Perhaps the "Church Body as Temple of God" has been overshadowed by "Onward Christian Soldiers". No answer, just some thoughts... First,
There was a reason God didn’t allow David to build his temple– he was a man of war.

Where is God’s temple today?

Secondly,
I’m not sure that making a whip means he beat people… it certainly doesn’t mean he killed anyone. I’m not against strong methods of persuasion–especially when God’s temple is threatened.

And who is God’s temple?

I think lots of very strong persuasion is appropriate when the innocent are threatened. For Christ, the strong persuasion meant HE took the fall–even for the one doing the killing.

I don’t know what all that means about war, but it certainly doesn’t make me idolize the warmongering depicted in the Bible– even AS it was a working out of God’s will. If God wants to orchestrate a war, so be it. I don’t have the omniscience for that sort of thing, and I certainly haven’t demonstrated the Grace necessary to balance it out.

Perhaps the “Church Body as Temple of God” has been overshadowed by “Onward Christian Soldiers”.

No answer, just some thoughts…

]]> By: Monty http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs/comment-page-1#comment-67426 Monty Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:14:12 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs#comment-67426 Due to time constraints, I rarely am able to spend much energy in the blogosphere. Yesterday I left a quick comment, then left for a sixteen hour work day. Today may be the same, so just one quick comment, and hopefully I can join in the conversation more fully later. What do we do with the fact that Jesus - a man of love, peace and humility, God incarnate - stopped, planned, gathered raw materials, manufactured a weapon of violence, and then used it aggressively with extreme diligence against other human beings (John 2:13-15)? Why didn't he just keep loving, teaching, discussing, dialoging, negotiating, etc.? Could it be that the evil was so great before God that action had to be taken? Due to time constraints, I rarely am able to spend much energy in the blogosphere. Yesterday I left a quick comment, then left for a sixteen hour work day. Today may be the same, so just one quick comment, and hopefully I can join in the conversation more fully later.

What do we do with the fact that Jesus – a man of love, peace and humility, God incarnate – stopped, planned, gathered raw materials, manufactured a weapon of violence, and then used it aggressively with extreme diligence against other human beings (John 2:13-15)? Why didn’t he just keep loving, teaching, discussing, dialoging, negotiating, etc.? Could it be that the evil was so great before God that action had to be taken?

]]> By: dk http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs/comment-page-1#comment-67422 dk Thu, 20 Sep 2007 07:19:42 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs#comment-67422 "Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered. He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment." The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "That is enough," he replied." (Luke 22:36-39) Scripture should be allowed to speak its own message without us making it what we want. War is a terrible thing, but sometimes we must defend the "weak and fatherless," stand up for truth, and sometimes it is necessary to take a life in order that many may live. Reference: 66 books of the Old Testament. “Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?” “Nothing,” they answered. He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.” The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.” “That is enough,” he replied.” (Luke 22:36-39)

Scripture should be allowed to speak its own message without us making it what we want. War is a terrible thing, but sometimes we must defend the “weak and fatherless,” stand up for truth, and sometimes it is necessary to take a life in order that many may live. Reference: 66 books of the Old Testament.

]]> By: Scott http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs/comment-page-1#comment-67418 Scott Wed, 19 Sep 2007 21:36:49 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs#comment-67418 Kathy, Of course you are right. I would never want to turn over the discipling job to the government--we've seen what that means! "You're Christian or your dead!" said the Roman Empire (and others) at times in the past. But we live in a time when our democratic government actually claims to be "of the people, by the people and for the people" a thing that hasn't happened until recent history. I'm happy for that, but where does it place me and my vote? I can no longer just say "I trust that God is in power over the Empire and that He will use even an ungodly ruler to do accomplish his will..." I actually have to participate in the working out of those laws that govern. Are we called to have a drastically different personal ethic and "governmental" ethic? Are we called to forgive our enemies and bless those who curse us privately but vote "pro-sword" when it comes to policy? That duality doesn't seem to match Jesus' teaching. It wouldn't be a moral struggle if I was simply at the whim of a dictatorship, but I'm, we're, not. Of course I'm sure I'm oversimplifying a complex issue, but this does impact what I actually do when I walk into the voting booth. The government represents me and my vote. Am I casting a vote toward my personal ethic or towards my governmental one? More importantly, isn't there a truth higher than either? Love? Kathy,
Of course you are right. I would never want to turn over the discipling job to the government–we’ve seen what that means! “You’re Christian or your dead!” said the Roman Empire (and others) at times in the past. But we live in a time when our democratic government actually claims to be “of the people, by the people and for the people” a thing that hasn’t happened until recent history. I’m happy for that, but where does it place me and my vote? I can no longer just say “I trust that God is in power over the Empire and that He will use even an ungodly ruler to do accomplish his will…” I actually have to participate in the working out of those laws that govern. Are we called to have a drastically different personal ethic and “governmental” ethic? Are we called to forgive our enemies and bless those who curse us privately but vote “pro-sword” when it comes to policy?

That duality doesn’t seem to match Jesus’ teaching. It wouldn’t be a moral struggle if I was simply at the whim of a dictatorship, but I’m, we’re, not. Of course I’m sure I’m oversimplifying a complex issue, but this does impact what I actually do when I walk into the voting booth. The government represents me and my vote. Am I casting a vote toward my personal ethic or towards my governmental one? More importantly, isn’t there a truth higher than either? Love?

]]> By: greg http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs/comment-page-1#comment-67417 greg Wed, 19 Sep 2007 21:06:47 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs#comment-67417 "war is sometimes the only resort" and sometimes we resort to war/violence far too soon, assuming it is the best or only option. “war is sometimes the only resort”

and sometimes we resort to war/violence far too soon, assuming it is the best or only option.

]]> By: Kathy http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs/comment-page-1#comment-67416 Kathy Wed, 19 Sep 2007 20:50:13 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs#comment-67416 Are we not confusing two different entities and attempting to apply one standard to both? The government has been endowed with a special job, if you want to call it that. It is to carry out justice with mercy and where necessary and with careful consideration, apply the use of the sword. In our personal lives there is a great difference. Jesus has enjoined us as individuals to be the peace makers, to forgive those that spitefully use us, as He says, to teach Him to all the world on a one on one basis. In our sphere of influence to be the peace makers. The government has not been commanded to make disciples for Jesus. Individuals have. Individuals have not been given the power of the sword to be used against lawbreakers, the government has. When we try to mix apples and oranges we get no fruit at all. But if as individuals we follow what Jesus has asked us to do, certainly sooner or later governments will follow suit - the ultimate goal being peace for all. But IMHO, only the return of Jesus will bring that total, complete peace for all the world. Sad, but true, imho. And with that comment I leave you all to ready myself for the closing tonight - Jeff Walling. Haven't heard Jeff in many years, since he left California for NC. Looking forward to tonight. Are we not confusing two different entities and attempting to apply one standard to both? The government has been endowed with a special job, if you want to call it that. It is to carry out justice with mercy and where necessary and with careful consideration, apply the use of the sword.

In our personal lives there is a great difference. Jesus has enjoined us as individuals to be the peace makers, to forgive those that spitefully use us, as He says, to teach Him to all the world on a one on one basis. In our sphere of influence to be the peace makers.

The government has not been commanded to make disciples for Jesus. Individuals have.

Individuals have not been given the power of the sword to be used against lawbreakers, the government has.

When we try to mix apples and oranges we get no fruit at all. But if as individuals we follow what Jesus has asked us to do, certainly sooner or later governments will follow suit – the ultimate goal being peace for all. But IMHO, only the return of Jesus will bring that total, complete peace for all the world. Sad, but true, imho.

And with that comment I leave you all to ready myself for the closing tonight – Jeff Walling. Haven’t heard Jeff in many years, since he left California for NC. Looking forward to tonight.

]]> By: Mr. Prolife http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs/comment-page-1#comment-67415 Mr. Prolife Wed, 19 Sep 2007 19:21:39 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs#comment-67415 The book of Micah huh? I need to read that book again. I guess it's been 8 or 9 years since I have. That's life though. Thanks for your thoughts. The book of Micah huh? I need to read that book again. I guess it’s been 8 or 9 years since I have. That’s life though. Thanks for your thoughts.

]]> By: Scott http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs/comment-page-1#comment-67414 Scott Wed, 19 Sep 2007 18:18:25 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs#comment-67414 Dennis, I understand the rationality of what you are saying, but isn't it sad that we can scoff at setting up Bible studies with North Koreans, in essence saying, "Yeah the words of Jesus work for some things, but once in awhile you just gotta pull out the big guns..." I don't know the answer, but I just don't think Jesus was that rational. He died pleading forgiveness for the people who were killing him... that's not rational, but it's the nature of God and his kingdom. Unfortunately, I'm probably alot more rational than I am spiritual... so the same logic you're using gnaws at me too. God help us all! Dennis,
I understand the rationality of what you are saying, but isn’t it sad that we can scoff at setting up Bible studies with North Koreans, in essence saying, “Yeah the words of Jesus work for some things, but once in awhile you just gotta pull out the big guns…”

I don’t know the answer, but I just don’t think Jesus was that rational. He died pleading forgiveness for the people who were killing him… that’s not rational, but it’s the nature of God and his kingdom.

Unfortunately, I’m probably alot more rational than I am spiritual… so the same logic you’re using gnaws at me too.

God help us all!

]]> By: Brandon Scott Thomas http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs/comment-page-1#comment-67413 Brandon Scott Thomas Wed, 19 Sep 2007 17:43:16 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs#comment-67413 Mike... I am SO jealous. I love Landon. I got a phone call last night after it was over with some rave reviews. I heard he pretty much hit it out of the park. Question...if messages like Landon's impact people so deeply, why aren't we seeing more of a rising up to do the very things we applaud as we sit and listen? It's really a sincere question. I think many people are feelin' in. When does it kick in? Mike…
I am SO jealous. I love Landon. I got a phone call last night after it was over with some rave reviews. I heard he pretty much hit it out of the park.

Question…if messages like Landon’s impact people so deeply, why aren’t we seeing more of a rising up to do the very things we applaud as we sit and listen? It’s really a sincere question. I think many people are feelin’ in. When does it kick in?

]]> By: Kathy http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs/comment-page-1#comment-67412 Kathy Wed, 19 Sep 2007 17:24:35 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs#comment-67412 <i> "It is about creative alternatives to war that played a part in liberating the captives of the Nazi camps." </i> IIRC, and I was of and age to remember and understand what was going on at that time, the camps were emptied by Allied forces that beat back the Nazis, driving them out of the camps. “It is about creative alternatives to war that played a part in liberating the captives of the Nazi camps.”

IIRC, and I was of and age to remember and understand what was going on at that time, the camps were emptied by Allied forces that beat back the Nazis, driving them out of the camps.

]]> By: Dennis http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs/comment-page-1#comment-67411 Dennis Wed, 19 Sep 2007 17:24:13 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs#comment-67411 OK So if tomorrow North Korea bombs us, are we going to protect ourselves or set up a time for Bible study? I think because we are in a war that most people think we shouldn't be in that we have forgotten that unfortunately war is sometimes the only resort. Peace! OK So if tomorrow North Korea bombs us, are we going to protect ourselves or set up a time for Bible study? I think because we are in a war that most people think we shouldn’t be in that we have forgotten that unfortunately war is sometimes the only resort. Peace!

]]> By: Justin http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs/comment-page-1#comment-67410 Justin Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:54:33 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs#comment-67410 Oh yeah, Monty another book that deals with that very question is called "What About Hitler?" It is about creative alternatives to war that played a part in liberating the captives of the Nazi camps. Oh yeah, Monty another book that deals with that very question is called “What About Hitler?” It is about creative alternatives to war that played a part in liberating the captives of the Nazi camps.

]]> By: Justin http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs/comment-page-1#comment-67409 Justin Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:51:52 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs#comment-67409 Another good resource about Christians and war is Lee Camp's book, "Mere Discipleship." I would argue that war is never neccessary. There are always alternatives if people are willing to be brave and creative and driven by love. Another good resource about Christians and war is Lee Camp’s book, “Mere Discipleship.”

I would argue that war is never neccessary. There are always alternatives if people are willing to be brave and creative and driven by love.

]]> By: Kev http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs/comment-page-1#comment-67408 Kev Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:32:39 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs#comment-67408 For a different take (than Jerry's) on war and such, you might take a look at Patrick Mead's series called "Life and Death" over at his blog. Here is a link to the first installment. http://patrickmead.net/tentpegs/?p=232 See ya! For a different take (than Jerry’s) on war and such, you might take a look at Patrick Mead’s series called “Life and Death” over at his blog. Here is a link to the first installment.

http://patrickmead.net/tentpegs/?p=232

See ya!

]]> By: Ray B. http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs/comment-page-1#comment-67405 Ray B. Wed, 19 Sep 2007 14:44:04 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/09/18/lbs#comment-67405 Thank God for all the good being done to those who are not Christians. Yes, we can always improve but throughout our great brotherhood there are numerous efforts at reaching those who are outside. Thank God for all the good being done to those who are not Christians. Yes, we can always improve but throughout our great brotherhood there are numerous efforts at reaching those who are outside.

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