Thats what you get for skipping town during the Paul in Fresh Perspective series…
But seriously, I think the discussion about this question - and answers like those Bosch proposes - may be the most important dialog within Christianity in the last 200 years. It threatens to undo a lot of work of the reformers (and for that reason its going to be controversial), but it opens up a promising, brighter view of scripture that speaks with a fresh, relevant voice in a world that is increasingly pluralistic and interconnected.
This sentiment works big time “close to the streets” that I know. It is not enough to focus only on afterlife. Ironically, those who point only to heaven, ignoring the earth, may be the ones who miss the very same realm to which they hurry to point. The only way to heaven is through the earth. Let God handle heaven–can we bank on grace–cash in some of that treasure for the sake of a suffering earth? I think the God Bosch speaks of here is the God I seek to follow and to please in my here and now.
That’s good stuff. So much better than the “if you die tonight, you’ll go to heaven” line that weakens the entire Scriptural thrust towards resurrection and new heavens/new earth with God setting the world right.
Ths quote makes me think of Luke 4:18-19 as we all strive to be His hands and feet and as we participate in the prayer “Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.”
Larry,
I appreciate your point, but I think it is myopic and ultimately self-defeating without a broader theological context to support it. And please note that my analysis here is intended to be helpful and supportive of your efforts. A salvation-focus on earth is only half the picture. You cannot readjust notions of salvation as Bosch does unless you extend that analysis past the death-event. Otherwise, there will be a radical and self-defeating disjoint between your soteriology and your eschatology.
Specifically, unless you posit post-mortem salvific work on God’s part, which will require us to revisit notions of hell, then social justice efforts will always be trumped by death concerns. That is, the moral clock is ticking and it requires us to save as many souls as we can before death. This theological configuration allows “soul-concerns” to trump “body-concerns,” the bane of your social justice efforts I suspect.
The point is, doctrines of hell are directly inhibiting aid for the poor. Blandly saying “let God figure heaven out” is ignoring a theological duty. The duty is to clearly articulate how social justice is an Ultimate, Eschatological Concern. A Moral End in Itself, and not just a Means to an End (i.e., helping the poor is a tool to save them). Until preachers and churches courageously confront these issues social justice will always play second fiddle in the Kingdom.
Richard, I think you may have misunderstood my point. My contention here is based on the trust that, in fact, “God has eternity figured out.” My role in the experience of life is to engage the pain of the world. As for “doctrines of hell,” I find that there is plenty of hell to go around right here. You comments are perceptive of my views. We agree on more than we disagree, if I am reading you correctly.
Larry,
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I suspect we do agree on many things. Know that I have nothing but the highest admiration for you and your work. You are a beacon in our fellowship.
Quote: The point is, doctrines of hell are directly inhibiting aid for the poor.
Friend, did you read that in a Rob Bell book, you definately didn’t read it in scripture. Below are some videos taken of brothers who have given their lives to feed and love the poor and speak very strongly (as Jesus did) about the realities of judgment and hell and the need to flee from the coming wrath of God against sinful humanity.
Feeding the poor and letting them die in their sin by not preaching the whole council of God is like a doctor giving tylenol to a patient who has cancer to mask the symptoms instead of prescribing something that can cure the diease. While the mainline babylonian church system has neglected the poor, and will be judged for it, I see my emergent friends swinging to the opposite extreme error and neglecting the fact that fallen man is seperated from God by our sin and that we must be born again through genuine repentace and faith in Christ (or saved as we like to call it) to come back into true fellowship with Him.
This has turned much of the emergent camp into a humanitarian group of unregenerate sinners with a few good social justice slogans, and it breaks my heart to see so many fall for this “another gospel” that is competing with the “another gospel” that mainline evangelicalism is preaching.
Sorry for being long winded, but let me ask, are you saved? To paraphrase an old friend, saved from what? From lying, from stealing, from being greedy, from sexual immorality, from living selfishly in defiance to God and despising the least of these my brethren, saved from pursuing the American dream and storing up treasure in 401ks that we plan to use so you can sit on a beach and collect sea shells in old age?
Salvation DOES save us from so much more from hell, which we all deserve, and it saves us to so much more then what we are living up to. Lets not throw away the other half of the Gospel in a knee jerk reaction to our fundy church system though… I have seen may do this.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
As Christians we must be a compassionate people. It is imperative that we love and care for those who are in need. But being filled wih compassion also includes telling the world the good news. Preparing for eternity is of greatest importance. This world is temporary.
Ray B,
I think that may be the point in question… IS this world really temporary? How does that fit with Paul’s message here:
I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved.
Romans 8:18-24a
And if it isn’t going to just burn up and go away, then what is my responsibility as one who is working as a member of the kingdom that is dedicted toward the “liberation” of the whole of creation? How do I respond differently in “salvic” ways if I see Paul’s words here and elsewhere as communicating this worldly/heavenly/kingdomly reality?
It comes back to if you see this world as what Paul writes about. We will have a transformed body . There is a place called Heaven. Jesus will take us to glory. I Cor 15 , I Thess. 4 , 2 Cor. 5.
Yet Peter and John also write about a new heaven and a new earth, in keeping with the old testament prophecies that God will renew all things. Is that a non-temporal but still material place? How does He renew it? We just don’t know.
But we do know that He gave us this world as a home, and in subduing it there is no permission given to squander nor destroy it. We are given the companionship of other people who face their own mortality the same way we do, and in living with them, there is no option given to not sharing with them the Story of the One who can give life that lasts forever.
And if salvation doesn’t have something to do with loving and sharing with others what we have been given and promised - well, it just ain’t salvation at all, as far as I’m concerned. It’s just a selfish sham for a self-deceived few.
And if that’s what Bosch is saying, I agree with him.
QUOTE:
[And if it isn’t going to just burn up and go away, then what is my responsibility as one who is working as a member of the kingdom that is dedicated toward the “liberation†of the whole of creation?]
2 Peter 3:
3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Surely Peter’s words were written for some on this thread. Another Gospel is being preached today, a Gospel that uses social justice as a means to downplay the sinfulness of mans sin and diminishes the precious blood of the Lamb of God that was shed on Calvary.
It is about helping peoeple now but it is also about proclaiming the gospel and the eternal destiny of every soul.
We must be benevolent, kind and abounding in good works and we must evangelize and warn about the coming judgement.
Jim,
Yes… I’ve read 2 Peter. But I’m sure you also know from your own research that many view the fire spoken of there as a “refining” fire rather than a “destroying” fire. The Greek study is an interesting one, and that interpretation also help that passage to fit better with many other passages in the new and old testament that seem to clearly indicate that God does not intend to destroy his “good” creation but rather to “renew” it. Our understanding of that renewal or redemption helps usher us into a clearer understanding of “salvation” in ALL its senses rather than simply the “ticket to heaven” sense. I’m NOT saying that the “ticket to heaven” sense is what you intend, only that that is the misunderstanding that 15 centuries of Hellenistic, Western influence have incorporated into the gospel. God intends to redeem that which chooses to submit to Him. We humans much choose, the rest of the creation never chose otherwise– it was simply “subjected” to frustration under sinful human rulership.
We need to take up our initial charter to rule over the earth as God’s image-bearers and get on with the kingdom business of loving and blessing in the name of Christ. Our submission will speak volumes to those who don’t know him: “They will know we are Christians by our love.”
Jim, I think the issue here is the extent and scope of our typical conversations about “salvation.” At least, that’s how I took Mike’s posting of the original quote.
Our normal “transactional” approaches to the salvation of individuals–about the only sort of salvation we are concerned about in the church of your and my heritage–is clearly inadequate, but very useful and comforting. I say “useful” because we can respond as individuals to the “invitation,” receive the grace we need and then go about our “normal” life–accomodating to many “respectable” aspects of our Western culture without thought, remorse, repentance or redemptive/corrective action. In other words, I “give my life to Jesus” and then move on into my life–going to church, enjoying the benefits of my life, many of which come to me from a system dominated by injustice, oppression and a real politic of exploitation.
I say “comforting” because I can come to the inner city poor, for instance, and I can tell my story there, encourage people to take the necessary steps to receive salvation, set up the institutions and systems to accommodate that cross cultural transaction and then go about my business–never having a word to say about why my new “friends” in the city are so poor, or so disadvantaged. When pressed or in private, in this system of transactional, individual salvation, I can point out that the poor suffer because of their bad choices, sin, etc.
My point here–not speaking to the inadequacies of such a view of personal salvation, I’ll leave that alone here–is to simply point out that there is a real need for collective, systemic redemption. I believe Jesus and Paul understood the reality of systemic evil or corporate sin. Paul seems to be getting at that in Romans 3 and in what he says about the status of creation and its longing.
The only time I was called down by an elder was in an annual review about a year after I had used the bombing of Hiroshima as an example of corporate evil or sin that implicates us all–my text was Romans 3.
It is just not as simple as “believe the story, take the steps,” etc. My experience teachs me that most of the suffering experienced in this world today is the result of systemic, corporate, collective forces of evil that are often masked by the dutiful proponents of “personal salvation”–after all, this world is passing away, they say. Such logic does not relieve me from the call to engage the world I face this morning. It is so much deeper than “helping people” who are in trouble.
[quote]
Here is a cup of cold water in the name of Jesus.
P.S. You are going to hell.
or as the Apostle Paul put it as he stood on Mars Hill and preached to heathen philosophers…
God now comamnds all men everywhere to repent because He has appointed a day in which He will judge the world in rightousness.
This is similar to what we have in the emergent church movement today, only our heathen philosophers hide behind the name of Jesus (who is another Jesus actually)
The above quote indicates that we have no idea how exceedingly sinful sin is and how worthy of damnation sinful men are. Which in turn gives evidence that we know nothing of the holiness or mercy of God either as it is not weighed against the sinfulness of man and vice versa.
There is an actual event of being born again where by a person realizes the wickedness of their sin against God (lying, stealing, sexual immorality, greediness, pride, etc) and the rightful punishment which is eternity in torment (no need to argue the western ideas of the lake of fire, scripture is clear enough that it will be tormenting to miss out on the wedding supper of the lamb and suffer under Gods wrath for eternity in whatever meta/physical sense God has ordained) and cries out to God for a new heart and new thoughts that Christ purchased for us on Calvary. This is far different then an unregenerate person doing good deeds and trusting in their own self righteousness because they give someone a glass of water.
I spend a lot of time with addicts, gang bangers and prostitutes and they dont just need a cold cup of water… They need the power and reality of the kingdom of God to enter their lives by believing that Jesus died to save us from our sins, to destroy the devils work on our lives and to set us free to live and preach the whole council of God.
Scott-
I do study Greek and early church history such as polycarp (a disciple of the apostle John) and many writings that are available prior to the church falling into apostasy under Constantine (which is where dominion theology appears to have its origins). I believe you are off on your use of Romans and the groaning of creation to support this theology but I do GREATLY appreciate talking with you though. The worse thing a man can do is surround himself with those who agree with him on everything and never be challenged in his beliefs. If you care to dialog more about this shoot me an email at repent_trust at yahoo.com sometime. BTW the love they will know us by is our love for each other.
I do agree also that unconverted men should love us for our kindness (such as caring for the orphans and widows) and will usally hate us for our declaration of their sinfulness and need to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Scripture and Church history support both. I feel some in the emergent camp create a false dichotomy when it comes to these most important issues.
Jim,
You are correct. Hell is in the picture. But as Jesus teaches, it is reserved for people like you. People who displace social justice from the center of Jesus’ good news. To save your soul, let me let Jesus speak to you from Matthew, his clearest teaching about who, exactly, is going to hell:
My you have ears to hear:
Matthew 25
31″When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34″Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37″Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40″The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41″Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44″They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45″He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46″Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Jim,
You are correct. Hell is in the picture. But as Jesus teaches, it is reserved for people like you. People who displace social justice from the center of Jesus’ good news.
response:
Thank you for writing this sir (or mam), that your views may now clearly be seen that they are not of the Holy Spirit but are of your father the devil.
On top of my 9-5 job, wife and 4 kids, I spend 2 days a week in the inner city feeding the poor out of my own finances, (sometimes 300 meals) so my family lives a very scaled down lifestyle relative to our income so we can do this and feed the orphans and widows overseas as well. I go to “church” in the back alleys and dark underground tunnels of the city, taking not only hugs, food and encouragement to the prostitutes, addicts, criminals, widows and the least of these but the message of the redemption of Christ both here and “here after”. To offer a man hope only in this life and to let him die in his sin (even if his life of sin is more comfortable and middle class) is not biblical.
When writing like this, I risk losing my rewards like the pharisees, but I will gladly give up those rewards if one person here escapses from the antichrist theology that is propogated through the false dichotomy of social justice vrs the message of repentance and faith and sees that we are to glorify Christ in everything.
It is not one or the other, all though it is easy to live in sin and compromise and tow the social justice line, as opposed to humbling ourself and crying out to God to save us from our wretched state of sinfulness and give us new hearts and new thoughts. (Including how to live not for worldly pleasure but for the love of God and our neighbors)
Isaiah 30:
9 These are rebellious people, deceitful children,
children unwilling to listen to the LORD’s instruction.
10 They say to the seers,
“See no more visions!”
and to the prophets,
“Give us no more visions of what is right!
Tell us pleasant things, prophesy illusions.
11 Leave this way,
get off this path,
and stop confronting us
with the Holy One of Israel!”
Anyone who is not born again of the Spirit and bearing fruit in accordance with repentance is going to hell. This includes those who do not love there neighbors as themselves as you stated above. Jesus also said that those who look with lust are going to hell… and here are many more
1 Corinthians 6:9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God
Revelation 21:8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Praise God for all the many good works of compassion that the church of Christ is currently involved in all over the world. Inner city ministries, children’s homes , hospitals , relief work , etc. Also included are the daily cups of cold water that members of the church are doing all day everyday . Works that never get media attention , but the massive numbers of people who are touched know about the hearts of compassion.
And praise God for all the evangelistic efforts by the church of Christ all over the world everyday. The campaigns , TV, radio , literature, preacher training schools, bible classes , small group studies, personal evangelism , bible correspondence courses , WBS , etc.
Have we arrived ? Of course not. Do we need to improve ? Always. We are constantly in the need to expand. But we can also be thankful for the good that has been accomplished , rejoice in the expansion of the kingdom currently and look forward with great expectations to the future work of the kingdom throughout the world.
Thanks for writing this prayer. I believe also that we depend too much on our creativity and not on realizing that without God’s blessing on our lives, we will only see done what we can do ourselves.
I am a former Full Preterist and have recently published an article to my blog on why I can no longer accept that position. This may be something you may want to check out.
So what does that look like eschatologically?
Richard-
Thats what you get for skipping town during the Paul in Fresh Perspective series…
But seriously, I think the discussion about this question - and answers like those Bosch proposes - may be the most important dialog within Christianity in the last 200 years. It threatens to undo a lot of work of the reformers (and for that reason its going to be controversial), but it opens up a promising, brighter view of scripture that speaks with a fresh, relevant voice in a world that is increasingly pluralistic and interconnected.
The first in my comment was supposed to have a grin symbol by it. Not sure why it didn’t show, but Richard knows I’m kidding, I think.
As opposed to…?
qb
Begs for elaboration.
This sentiment works big time “close to the streets” that I know. It is not enough to focus only on afterlife. Ironically, those who point only to heaven, ignoring the earth, may be the ones who miss the very same realm to which they hurry to point. The only way to heaven is through the earth. Let God handle heaven–can we bank on grace–cash in some of that treasure for the sake of a suffering earth? I think the God Bosch speaks of here is the God I seek to follow and to please in my here and now.
That’s good stuff. So much better than the “if you die tonight, you’ll go to heaven” line that weakens the entire Scriptural thrust towards resurrection and new heavens/new earth with God setting the world right.
Ths quote makes me think of Luke 4:18-19 as we all strive to be His hands and feet and as we participate in the prayer “Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.”
This verse comes to mind.
If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 1 John 3:16
Larry,
I appreciate your point, but I think it is myopic and ultimately self-defeating without a broader theological context to support it. And please note that my analysis here is intended to be helpful and supportive of your efforts. A salvation-focus on earth is only half the picture. You cannot readjust notions of salvation as Bosch does unless you extend that analysis past the death-event. Otherwise, there will be a radical and self-defeating disjoint between your soteriology and your eschatology.
Specifically, unless you posit post-mortem salvific work on God’s part, which will require us to revisit notions of hell, then social justice efforts will always be trumped by death concerns. That is, the moral clock is ticking and it requires us to save as many souls as we can before death. This theological configuration allows “soul-concerns” to trump “body-concerns,” the bane of your social justice efforts I suspect.
The point is, doctrines of hell are directly inhibiting aid for the poor. Blandly saying “let God figure heaven out” is ignoring a theological duty. The duty is to clearly articulate how social justice is an Ultimate, Eschatological Concern. A Moral End in Itself, and not just a Means to an End (i.e., helping the poor is a tool to save them). Until preachers and churches courageously confront these issues social justice will always play second fiddle in the Kingdom.
And that would be a shame.
Richard -
Spot on and exceptional, as always!
Jeff.
Richard, I think you may have misunderstood my point. My contention here is based on the trust that, in fact, “God has eternity figured out.” My role in the experience of life is to engage the pain of the world. As for “doctrines of hell,” I find that there is plenty of hell to go around right here. You comments are perceptive of my views. We agree on more than we disagree, if I am reading you correctly.
Larry,
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I suspect we do agree on many things. Know that I have nothing but the highest admiration for you and your work. You are a beacon in our fellowship.
And you are right, this world is hell enough.
If Joel Osteen were to ever speak on salvation, I suspect this is what he might say.
Maybe we should as the author, “salvation from what or whom?”
Oops!
“ask” not “as”
Still wish for an edit feature here. Or maybe I should wish me to slow down and proof?
Quote: The point is, doctrines of hell are directly inhibiting aid for the poor.
Friend, did you read that in a Rob Bell book, you definately didn’t read it in scripture. Below are some videos taken of brothers who have given their lives to feed and love the poor and speak very strongly (as Jesus did) about the realities of judgment and hell and the need to flee from the coming wrath of God against sinful humanity.
Feeding the poor and letting them die in their sin by not preaching the whole council of God is like a doctor giving tylenol to a patient who has cancer to mask the symptoms instead of prescribing something that can cure the diease. While the mainline babylonian church system has neglected the poor, and will be judged for it, I see my emergent friends swinging to the opposite extreme error and neglecting the fact that fallen man is seperated from God by our sin and that we must be born again through genuine repentace and faith in Christ (or saved as we like to call it) to come back into true fellowship with Him.
This has turned much of the emergent camp into a humanitarian group of unregenerate sinners with a few good social justice slogans, and it breaks my heart to see so many fall for this “another gospel” that is competing with the “another gospel” that mainline evangelicalism is preaching.
Sorry for being long winded, but let me ask, are you saved? To paraphrase an old friend, saved from what? From lying, from stealing, from being greedy, from sexual immorality, from living selfishly in defiance to God and despising the least of these my brethren, saved from pursuing the American dream and storing up treasure in 401ks that we plan to use so you can sit on a beach and collect sea shells in old age?
Salvation DOES save us from so much more from hell, which we all deserve, and it saves us to so much more then what we are living up to. Lets not throw away the other half of the Gospel in a knee jerk reaction to our fundy church system though… I have seen may do this.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
In Christ - Jim
The message
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxiK7zdNQc4
The testimony
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_q0gJS54UI
I still think the old, old definition of grace/salvation speaks more loudly than most systems of soteriology that I’ve read.
“One beggar telling another beggar where to find bread.”
Peace.
As Christians we must be a compassionate people. It is imperative that we love and care for those who are in need. But being filled wih compassion also includes telling the world the good news. Preparing for eternity is of greatest importance. This world is temporary.
Ray B,
I think that may be the point in question… IS this world really temporary? How does that fit with Paul’s message here:
I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved.
Romans 8:18-24a
And if it isn’t going to just burn up and go away, then what is my responsibility as one who is working as a member of the kingdom that is dedicted toward the “liberation” of the whole of creation? How do I respond differently in “salvic” ways if I see Paul’s words here and elsewhere as communicating this worldly/heavenly/kingdomly reality?
It comes back to if you see this world as what Paul writes about. We will have a transformed body . There is a place called Heaven. Jesus will take us to glory. I Cor 15 , I Thess. 4 , 2 Cor. 5.
Yet Peter and John also write about a new heaven and a new earth, in keeping with the old testament prophecies that God will renew all things. Is that a non-temporal but still material place? How does He renew it? We just don’t know.
But we do know that He gave us this world as a home, and in subduing it there is no permission given to squander nor destroy it. We are given the companionship of other people who face their own mortality the same way we do, and in living with them, there is no option given to not sharing with them the Story of the One who can give life that lasts forever.
And if salvation doesn’t have something to do with loving and sharing with others what we have been given and promised - well, it just ain’t salvation at all, as far as I’m concerned. It’s just a selfish sham for a self-deceived few.
And if that’s what Bosch is saying, I agree with him.
I just can’t tell from those few words.
It’s here and now. If you can’t give hope now, your cries for eternal hope are silenced and asinine.
Larry James has the inside track to the BSC.
QUOTE:
[And if it isn’t going to just burn up and go away, then what is my responsibility as one who is working as a member of the kingdom that is dedicated toward the “liberation†of the whole of creation?]
2 Peter 3:
3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Surely Peter’s words were written for some on this thread. Another Gospel is being preached today, a Gospel that uses social justice as a means to downplay the sinfulness of mans sin and diminishes the precious blood of the Lamb of God that was shed on Calvary.
In Christ - Jim
It is about helping peoeple now but it is also about proclaiming the gospel and the eternal destiny of every soul.
We must be benevolent, kind and abounding in good works and we must evangelize and warn about the coming judgement.
Here is a cup of cold water in the name of Jesus.
P.S. You are going to hell.
Jim,
Yes… I’ve read 2 Peter. But I’m sure you also know from your own research that many view the fire spoken of there as a “refining” fire rather than a “destroying” fire. The Greek study is an interesting one, and that interpretation also help that passage to fit better with many other passages in the new and old testament that seem to clearly indicate that God does not intend to destroy his “good” creation but rather to “renew” it. Our understanding of that renewal or redemption helps usher us into a clearer understanding of “salvation” in ALL its senses rather than simply the “ticket to heaven” sense. I’m NOT saying that the “ticket to heaven” sense is what you intend, only that that is the misunderstanding that 15 centuries of Hellenistic, Western influence have incorporated into the gospel. God intends to redeem that which chooses to submit to Him. We humans much choose, the rest of the creation never chose otherwise– it was simply “subjected” to frustration under sinful human rulership.
We need to take up our initial charter to rule over the earth as God’s image-bearers and get on with the kingdom business of loving and blessing in the name of Christ. Our submission will speak volumes to those who don’t know him: “They will know we are Christians by our love.”
Jim, I think the issue here is the extent and scope of our typical conversations about “salvation.” At least, that’s how I took Mike’s posting of the original quote.
Our normal “transactional” approaches to the salvation of individuals–about the only sort of salvation we are concerned about in the church of your and my heritage–is clearly inadequate, but very useful and comforting. I say “useful” because we can respond as individuals to the “invitation,” receive the grace we need and then go about our “normal” life–accomodating to many “respectable” aspects of our Western culture without thought, remorse, repentance or redemptive/corrective action. In other words, I “give my life to Jesus” and then move on into my life–going to church, enjoying the benefits of my life, many of which come to me from a system dominated by injustice, oppression and a real politic of exploitation.
I say “comforting” because I can come to the inner city poor, for instance, and I can tell my story there, encourage people to take the necessary steps to receive salvation, set up the institutions and systems to accommodate that cross cultural transaction and then go about my business–never having a word to say about why my new “friends” in the city are so poor, or so disadvantaged. When pressed or in private, in this system of transactional, individual salvation, I can point out that the poor suffer because of their bad choices, sin, etc.
My point here–not speaking to the inadequacies of such a view of personal salvation, I’ll leave that alone here–is to simply point out that there is a real need for collective, systemic redemption. I believe Jesus and Paul understood the reality of systemic evil or corporate sin. Paul seems to be getting at that in Romans 3 and in what he says about the status of creation and its longing.
The only time I was called down by an elder was in an annual review about a year after I had used the bombing of Hiroshima as an example of corporate evil or sin that implicates us all–my text was Romans 3.
It is just not as simple as “believe the story, take the steps,” etc. My experience teachs me that most of the suffering experienced in this world today is the result of systemic, corporate, collective forces of evil that are often masked by the dutiful proponents of “personal salvation”–after all, this world is passing away, they say. Such logic does not relieve me from the call to engage the world I face this morning. It is so much deeper than “helping people” who are in trouble.
[quote]
Here is a cup of cold water in the name of Jesus.
P.S. You are going to hell.
or as the Apostle Paul put it as he stood on Mars Hill and preached to heathen philosophers…
God now comamnds all men everywhere to repent because He has appointed a day in which He will judge the world in rightousness.
This is similar to what we have in the emergent church movement today, only our heathen philosophers hide behind the name of Jesus (who is another Jesus actually)
The above quote indicates that we have no idea how exceedingly sinful sin is and how worthy of damnation sinful men are. Which in turn gives evidence that we know nothing of the holiness or mercy of God either as it is not weighed against the sinfulness of man and vice versa.
There is an actual event of being born again where by a person realizes the wickedness of their sin against God (lying, stealing, sexual immorality, greediness, pride, etc) and the rightful punishment which is eternity in torment (no need to argue the western ideas of the lake of fire, scripture is clear enough that it will be tormenting to miss out on the wedding supper of the lamb and suffer under Gods wrath for eternity in whatever meta/physical sense God has ordained) and cries out to God for a new heart and new thoughts that Christ purchased for us on Calvary. This is far different then an unregenerate person doing good deeds and trusting in their own self righteousness because they give someone a glass of water.
I spend a lot of time with addicts, gang bangers and prostitutes and they dont just need a cold cup of water… They need the power and reality of the kingdom of God to enter their lives by believing that Jesus died to save us from our sins, to destroy the devils work on our lives and to set us free to live and preach the whole council of God.
Scott-
I do study Greek and early church history such as polycarp (a disciple of the apostle John) and many writings that are available prior to the church falling into apostasy under Constantine (which is where dominion theology appears to have its origins). I believe you are off on your use of Romans and the groaning of creation to support this theology but I do GREATLY appreciate talking with you though. The worse thing a man can do is surround himself with those who agree with him on everything and never be challenged in his beliefs. If you care to dialog more about this shoot me an email at repent_trust at yahoo.com sometime. BTW the love they will know us by is our love for each other.
I do agree also that unconverted men should love us for our kindness (such as caring for the orphans and widows) and will usally hate us for our declaration of their sinfulness and need to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Scripture and Church history support both. I feel some in the emergent camp create a false dichotomy when it comes to these most important issues.
In Christ - Jim
Jim,
You are correct. Hell is in the picture. But as Jesus teaches, it is reserved for people like you. People who displace social justice from the center of Jesus’ good news. To save your soul, let me let Jesus speak to you from Matthew, his clearest teaching about who, exactly, is going to hell:
My you have ears to hear:
Matthew 25
31″When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34″Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37″Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40″The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41″Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44″They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45″He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46″Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
quote:
Jim,
You are correct. Hell is in the picture. But as Jesus teaches, it is reserved for people like you. People who displace social justice from the center of Jesus’ good news.
response:
Thank you for writing this sir (or mam), that your views may now clearly be seen that they are not of the Holy Spirit but are of your father the devil.
On top of my 9-5 job, wife and 4 kids, I spend 2 days a week in the inner city feeding the poor out of my own finances, (sometimes 300 meals) so my family lives a very scaled down lifestyle relative to our income so we can do this and feed the orphans and widows overseas as well. I go to “church” in the back alleys and dark underground tunnels of the city, taking not only hugs, food and encouragement to the prostitutes, addicts, criminals, widows and the least of these but the message of the redemption of Christ both here and “here after”. To offer a man hope only in this life and to let him die in his sin (even if his life of sin is more comfortable and middle class) is not biblical.
When writing like this, I risk losing my rewards like the pharisees, but I will gladly give up those rewards if one person here escapses from the antichrist theology that is propogated through the false dichotomy of social justice vrs the message of repentance and faith and sees that we are to glorify Christ in everything.
It is not one or the other, all though it is easy to live in sin and compromise and tow the social justice line, as opposed to humbling ourself and crying out to God to save us from our wretched state of sinfulness and give us new hearts and new thoughts. (Including how to live not for worldly pleasure but for the love of God and our neighbors)
Isaiah 30:
9 These are rebellious people, deceitful children,
children unwilling to listen to the LORD’s instruction.
10 They say to the seers,
“See no more visions!”
and to the prophets,
“Give us no more visions of what is right!
Tell us pleasant things, prophesy illusions.
11 Leave this way,
get off this path,
and stop confronting us
with the Holy One of Israel!”
love,
Jim
BTW…
Anyone who is not born again of the Spirit and bearing fruit in accordance with repentance is going to hell. This includes those who do not love there neighbors as themselves as you stated above. Jesus also said that those who look with lust are going to hell… and here are many more
1 Corinthians 6:9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God
Revelation 21:8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
In Christ - Jim
Praise God for all the many good works of compassion that the church of Christ is currently involved in all over the world. Inner city ministries, children’s homes , hospitals , relief work , etc. Also included are the daily cups of cold water that members of the church are doing all day everyday . Works that never get media attention , but the massive numbers of people who are touched know about the hearts of compassion.
And praise God for all the evangelistic efforts by the church of Christ all over the world everyday. The campaigns , TV, radio , literature, preacher training schools, bible classes , small group studies, personal evangelism , bible correspondence courses , WBS , etc.
Have we arrived ? Of course not. Do we need to improve ? Always. We are constantly in the need to expand. But we can also be thankful for the good that has been accomplished , rejoice in the expansion of the kingdom currently and look forward with great expectations to the future work of the kingdom throughout the world.
Great post!
We need Him more now than ever!
BigDadGib
I think Jim and Baruch should meet in the octagon.
Happily, as, apparently, I have the Devil and the Anti-Christ on my side.
Read Bosch’s statement in light of the Stackhouse article I have referenced today.
What we’re searching for is a biblical view of salvation — one that is more akin to the Hebrew concept of “shalom.”
Amen, Jim.
I think social justice unaccompanied by the message of repentance necessary for salvation is usually done so we can feel good about ourselves.
The very meaning salvation is being saved from something, in our case an eternity in hell.
Thanks for writing this prayer. I believe also that we depend too much on our creativity and not on realizing that without God’s blessing on our lives, we will only see done what we can do ourselves.
I am a former Full Preterist and have recently published an article to my blog on why I can no longer accept that position. This may be something you may want to check out.
http://www.shadowsofthecross.com/