Comments on: Leaving Church #2 http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2 Sniffing out the work of God in the world... Fri, 18 May 2012 14:25:11 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Ray B. http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2/comment-page-1#comment-66511 Ray B. Wed, 25 Jul 2007 22:33:28 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2#comment-66511 Kyle, Once again , amen. Let us rejoice in the design God created for male and female relationships. Yes , there are very gifted women and their abilities must be used to glorify God and to reach out to a tired and hopeless world but as you have said within the plan God has given us. Kyle,
Once again , amen. Let us rejoice in the design God created for male and female relationships. Yes , there are very gifted women and their abilities must be used to glorify God and to reach out to a tired and hopeless world but as you have said within the plan God has given us.

]]> By: Kyle http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2/comment-page-1#comment-66507 Kyle Wed, 25 Jul 2007 20:50:52 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2#comment-66507 Julie, anytime someone claims a calling that is counter to our understanding of God, we have to question the authenticity of that calling. An extreme example would be when people blowup abortion clinics. That would be counter to our understanding of God and so I would say we are obligated to question that calling. Now, I couldn't see anything you said about Ms. Brown that I would disagree with. But, she is still fully human and faulted like you and I. I'm not sure about this, but based on some of the comments I've heard, the rationale sounds more like "It must be OK with God that women publicly lead the church, otherwise why would he make them such good preachers". To me that has nothing to do with whether or not it's biblical. I hope Ms. Brown continues to follow Christ with the earnestness and integrity that you speak of. I see no reason why she can't. That is not in conflict with the concept of woman being created as a helper to man and the Godly design of male headship in the family and the church. Julie, anytime someone claims a calling that is counter to our understanding of God, we have to question the authenticity of that calling. An extreme example would be when people blowup abortion clinics. That would be counter to our understanding of God and so I would say we are obligated to question that calling.

Now, I couldn’t see anything you said about Ms. Brown that I would disagree with. But, she is still fully human and faulted like you and I.

I’m not sure about this, but based on some of the comments I’ve heard, the rationale sounds more like “It must be OK with God that women publicly lead the church, otherwise why would he make them such good preachers”. To me that has nothing to do with whether or not it’s biblical.

I hope Ms. Brown continues to follow Christ with the earnestness and integrity that you speak of. I see no reason why she can’t. That is not in conflict with the concept of woman being created as a helper to man and the Godly design of male headship in the family and the church.

]]> By: Matthew Morine http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2/comment-page-1#comment-66500 Matthew Morine Wed, 25 Jul 2007 15:58:47 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2#comment-66500 I am glad to see you highlight this great book. It might have been the best book I read this year. My only regard about the book is that I could have read it on the beach. It touched my soul little so few books do. Thank you for quoting from it. www.matthewsblog.waynesborochurchofchrist.org I am glad to see you highlight this great book. It might have been the best book I read this year. My only regard about the book is that I could have read it on the beach. It touched my soul little so few books do. Thank you for quoting from it.

http://www.matthewsblog.waynesborochurchofchrist.org

]]> By: julie http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2/comment-page-1#comment-66495 julie Wed, 25 Jul 2007 13:49:53 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2#comment-66495 Kyle, I apologize for my sarcasm...sometimes too quick to spill off my tongue but I will say that it is a knee jerk response. A knee jerk response because as women we are always being questioned and I think that Barbara Brown Taylor is brilliant and a follower of Jesus filled with the Holy Spirit and because of her gender you question her calling. Her sermons and her books shine with honesty and integrity and an earnest desire to know Jesus in a deeper way. Who are we to say that God has not called her? Would you have questioned her calling if she were a man? Kyle, I apologize for my sarcasm…sometimes too quick to spill off my tongue but I will say that it is a knee jerk response. A knee jerk response because as women we are always being questioned and I think that Barbara Brown Taylor is brilliant and a follower of Jesus filled with the Holy Spirit and because of her gender you question her calling. Her sermons and her books shine with honesty and integrity and an earnest desire to know Jesus in a deeper way. Who are we to say that God has not called her? Would you have questioned her calling if she were a man?

]]> By: Mike http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2/comment-page-1#comment-66486 Mike Wed, 25 Jul 2007 11:33:03 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2#comment-66486 Kyle - I disagree with you for reasons I've mentioned often on the blog and in easily-accessible tapes. But thanks so much for your kind spirit. We certainly can disagree on this while recognizing our unity in Christ. Mike (the one with the blog) Kyle – I disagree with you for reasons I’ve mentioned often on the blog and in easily-accessible tapes. But thanks so much for your kind spirit. We certainly can disagree on this while recognizing our unity in Christ. Mike (the one with the blog)

]]> By: Ray B. http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2/comment-page-1#comment-66485 Ray B. Wed, 25 Jul 2007 11:23:39 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2#comment-66485 Kyle , I believe you are right. We should not try and change God's design . It is perfect. And when His ways are applied they are the best way for all to live. Kyle ,
I believe you are right. We should not try and change God’s design . It is perfect. And when His ways are applied they are the best way for all to live.

]]> By: Mike http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2/comment-page-1#comment-66483 Mike Wed, 25 Jul 2007 11:11:33 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2#comment-66483 Keith - The "baptism" scene is also my favorite part of the book. I've read it several times now. Keith – The “baptism” scene is also my favorite part of the book. I’ve read it several times now.

]]> By: Mike (the one w/o a blog) http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2/comment-page-1#comment-66480 Mike (the one w/o a blog) Wed, 25 Jul 2007 05:30:16 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2#comment-66480 Kyle, point taken. And I'd even agree that it's not an entirely valid argument - but, often those with more conservative views are strongly swayed when they see a reality that doesn't conform. Regardless, I'd have to go with SG. This isn't a gender issue. I'm willing to be presumptuous enough to speculate that one of the reasons Mike posted these thoughts is that they're not entirely unfamiliar. Ministry burnout has claimed more than a few gifted male ministers... Kyle, point taken. And I’d even agree that it’s not an entirely valid argument – but, often those with more conservative views are strongly swayed when they see a reality that doesn’t conform.

Regardless, I’d have to go with SG. This isn’t a gender issue. I’m willing to be presumptuous enough to speculate that one of the reasons Mike posted these thoughts is that they’re not entirely unfamiliar. Ministry burnout has claimed more than a few gifted male ministers…

]]> By: SG http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2/comment-page-1#comment-66479 SG Wed, 25 Jul 2007 05:22:26 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2#comment-66479 Honestly I just came here looking for a score to from the game this afternoon... But I think the burn-out she is talking about has nothing to do with ggender and is possible in many kinds of ministry. It's not just privy to those whose income comes from working for professional in a church. Just ask my friend DJG... But what do I know? I'm just looking for the score from the game. :) Honestly I just came here looking for a score to from the game this afternoon… But I think the burn-out she is talking about has nothing to do with ggender and is possible in many kinds of ministry. It’s not just privy to those whose income comes from working for professional in a church. Just ask my friend DJG… But what do I know? I’m just looking for the score from the game. :)

]]> By: Kyle http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2/comment-page-1#comment-66478 Kyle Wed, 25 Jul 2007 05:02:41 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2#comment-66478 Julie, I certainly don't mean any disrespect and was only trying to be intellectually honest. I am open to discussion, even persuasive discussion but sarcasm is not necessary. Yes I use the term "guys" generically and would never attempt to exclude anyone from an open forum. And I'm from TX but, being in the Navy, have lived all over the country so I don't use "yall" as much now. Mike, my point is not that women cannot be gifted ministers of the faith. But my best understanding at this time is that God did create men and women differently and he intended for them to carry out different functions and roles in life. I have a hard time reconciling as some have, both the New Testament passages on roles of women and the creation story and the implication of God's design with women taking public leadership roles over men in the church. I respect that not everyone agrees with me. I don't come to my position by refusal to consider any other way but rather by studying and searching the scripture. But that was really beside the point. My point was just that it is possible that God wants her to take a different role in ministry. I have seen many women do a very good job of maintaining balance at being effective (even powerful) ministers and fulfilling the purposes that God created them for. But the way you put your comment... "...if you had ever witnessed Ms. Taylor in ministry I don’t think that you’d be able to ask that question..." kinda implies that if she's a good enough preacher, then it's OK. That's fine if you're trying to debunk the argument that "women are inferior and not good preachers and that's why God doesn't want them to do it". But that's not at all where I come from. I try to be as faithful and gentle as I can with my interpretation of the Scripture and I come to the conclusion that God doesn't desire for women to preach and lead a congregation in the role that the Episcopalian church has ordained her to whether they are good preachers or not. Julie, I certainly don’t mean any disrespect and was only trying to be intellectually honest. I am open to discussion, even persuasive discussion but sarcasm is not necessary. Yes I use the term “guys” generically and would never attempt to exclude anyone from an open forum. And I’m from TX but, being in the Navy, have lived all over the country so I don’t use “yall” as much now.

Mike, my point is not that women cannot be gifted ministers of the faith. But my best understanding at this time is that God did create men and women differently and he intended for them to carry out different functions and roles in life. I have a hard time reconciling as some have, both the New Testament passages on roles of women and the creation story and the implication of God’s design with women taking public leadership roles over men in the church. I respect that not everyone agrees with me. I don’t come to my position by refusal to consider any other way but rather by studying and searching the scripture. But that was really beside the point. My point was just that it is possible that God wants her to take a different role in ministry. I have seen many women do a very good job of maintaining balance at being effective (even powerful) ministers and fulfilling the purposes that God created them for.

But the way you put your comment…

“…if you had ever witnessed Ms. Taylor in ministry I don’t think that you’d be able to ask that question…”

kinda implies that if she’s a good enough preacher, then it’s OK. That’s fine if you’re trying to debunk the argument that “women are inferior and not good preachers and that’s why God doesn’t want them to do it”. But that’s not at all where I come from. I try to be as faithful and gentle as I can with my interpretation of the Scripture and I come to the conclusion that God doesn’t desire for women to preach and lead a congregation in the role that the Episcopalian church has ordained her to whether they are good preachers or not.

]]> By: Mike (the one w/o a blog) http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2/comment-page-1#comment-66476 Mike (the one w/o a blog) Wed, 25 Jul 2007 04:04:53 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2#comment-66476 Kyle, if you had ever witnessed Ms. Taylor in ministry I don't think that you'd be able to ask that question - at least from not from the position that you approach it from. Pick up a couple of her books, and then prayerfully consider it... Kyle, if you had ever witnessed Ms. Taylor in ministry I don’t think that you’d be able to ask that question – at least from not from the position that you approach it from. Pick up a couple of her books, and then prayerfully consider it…

]]> By: julie http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2/comment-page-1#comment-66475 julie Wed, 25 Jul 2007 03:15:43 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2#comment-66475 Kyle, are from the northeast and do you mean all of us or do you just want to know what the guys think? Or maybe I am not called to answer because I am a woman? I don't know....just trying to clarify. Kyle, are from the northeast and do you mean all of us or do you just want to know what the guys think? Or maybe I am not called to answer because I am a woman? I don’t know….just trying to clarify.

]]> By: Kyle http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2/comment-page-1#comment-66474 Kyle Wed, 25 Jul 2007 02:46:30 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2#comment-66474 I hate to be the old fashioned thinker here but I can't get around the fact that we are discussing a woman in a role that I believe is unscriptural. I'm not really trying to start a discussion on women's roles in the church as much as, is Barbara called to this role. Not to say that ministers of all shapes and sized don't have profound struggles, but the reasons for them are usually human. For Ms. Taylor, I can't help but assume that she is naturally going to struggle because she is attempting to live a life that God has not called her to. In no way am I saying she should just give it up. What do you guys think? I hate to be the old fashioned thinker here but I can’t get around the fact that we are discussing a woman in a role that I believe is unscriptural. I’m not really trying to start a discussion on women’s roles in the church as much as, is Barbara called to this role. Not to say that ministers of all shapes and sized don’t have profound struggles, but the reasons for them are usually human. For Ms. Taylor, I can’t help but assume that she is naturally going to struggle because she is attempting to live a life that God has not called her to. In no way am I saying she should just give it up. What do you guys think?

]]> By: Steve http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2/comment-page-1#comment-66470 Steve Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:47:09 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2#comment-66470 There's an underlying message implicit in Taylor's words here: "I never should have let it get to this point. It shouldn't be this way." I wonder if Barbara would agree that in professionalizing ministry in our productivity-based culture, the church sets its full-time servants up for burnout and disappointment. In most of our churches, responsibility for the spiritual care of hundreds or thousands of church members and countless not-yet-Christians in surrounding communities falls on a handful of men (usually). I'm not convinced that the position of full-time minister -- in all that churches expect out of that position -- is the least bit sustainable. I wonder if Barbara would agree with my loose re-translation of Jesus' words in Matthew 16:26: "For what does it profit a [person] to spend a lifetime in ministry and lose his soul." Thank you, Mike, for posting Barbara's words here. They are both reflective and prophetic, but I fear they will be lost on most of the church. Doesn't preach too well to, well, preachers. =) There’s an underlying message implicit in Taylor’s words here:

“I never should have let it get to this point. It shouldn’t be this way.”

I wonder if Barbara would agree that in professionalizing ministry in our productivity-based culture, the church sets its full-time servants up for burnout and disappointment. In most of our churches, responsibility for the spiritual care of hundreds or thousands of church members and countless not-yet-Christians in surrounding communities falls on a handful of men (usually). I’m not convinced that the position of full-time minister — in all that churches expect out of that position — is the least bit sustainable.

I wonder if Barbara would agree with my loose re-translation of Jesus’ words in Matthew 16:26:

“For what does it profit a [person] to spend a lifetime in ministry and lose his soul.”

Thank you, Mike, for posting Barbara’s words here. They are both reflective and prophetic, but I fear they will be lost on most of the church. Doesn’t preach too well to, well, preachers. =)

]]> By: Kathy http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2/comment-page-1#comment-66469 Kathy Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:58:21 +0000 http://preachermike.com/2007/07/24/leaving-church-2#comment-66469 Ah yes! Ministry burnout. How well I remember it's burning bite. Nurturing, teaching, encouraging, mentoring, nudging, etc., etc., etc. and yet, it seemed there was no place to go for refueling, as Julie mentioned, until I came to Highland, that is. Setting boundaries is as important, as crucial to our spiritual, emotional and physical life as is air for the lungs, in my opinion. I also must agree with Jeremy. These two blog entries have given me a creepy, up the spine chill. I pray they are not a glimpse of future drastic changes on Highland's horizon. And I echo his expressed sentiments, "I hope not!" Ah yes! Ministry burnout. How well I remember it’s burning bite. Nurturing, teaching, encouraging, mentoring, nudging, etc., etc., etc. and yet, it seemed there was no place to go for refueling, as Julie mentioned, until I came to Highland, that is. Setting boundaries is as important, as crucial to our spiritual, emotional and physical life as is air for the lungs, in my opinion.

I also must agree with Jeremy. These two blog entries have given me a creepy, up the spine chill. I pray they are not a glimpse of future drastic changes on Highland’s horizon. And I echo his expressed sentiments, “I hope not!”

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