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No one is crucifying Rick. However, Rick was the catalyst. My point is that Rick, 10 ministers, a number of elders, along with a large number of members are a party to creating a division in the Lord’s church, however small it might be. If one person leaves the church and loses his soul, these people may be subject to more static than I’m giving them.

The main justification for doing this was outreach. Where are the masses? What are the results? Why is the budget not being met? They want to be judged only by their intentions and tolerance. They have placed themselves above reproach. They are not accountable to results.

My question is, do you really think that 10 ministers, a number of elders (I don’t know how many) and an entire church really caved into only ONE person’s desire/belief for a service with instruments? I wouldn’t crucify one man for a church’s decision.

-Thank you to those having this discussion. While some, like myself, don’t jump in your processing has been a great help to me.

I remember when Brent sat in my house every week when he was a college student. My son (now 25, but then just a kid) loved him. God has worked so powerfully through him — whether in Africa or in the NW USA. Love the story of his father praying for him. And I love the story of him praying for you, brother.

Mike

You and your friend Brent are two people I would like to meet some day. I appreciate you for your brutal honesty. When I quoted the passage from Job, I was assuming that forsaking the fear of the Almighty included no longer believing in him. The fact that you felt it necessary to clarify is a witness to your commitment to absolute accuracy. I respect that. It’s actually challenged me to examine the subtle semantics I use to cover up my true feelings, beliefs, prejudices, etc.

Several years ago, I studied the concept of friendship in the book of Job and 6:14 rose to the surface as the epitome of where the friends missed the boat. Since then, I’ve seen way more of Job’s friends than I’d like in Christians who think they’re offering godly comfort to the hurting. What they’re actually trying to do, in my opinion, is protect their own faith which has been shaken by the same tragic events that have devastated their friend.

It’s a rare friend who will wade into the pain with you without feeling a need to “protect God” from your outrage. It sounds like Brent is one of those friends. And yes, if you ever come back to faith, it will be because of people like him, not because of the well-intentioned folks who admonish you to “tone it down.”

My guess is that you and I are a fair distance apart generationally, philosophically and even geographically. So if I said, “If there’s anything I can do, just let me know,” that would sound pretty hollow. However, I am praying for you and your friend Brent. And I’d be open to any further dialogue that would be helpful to you. It would no doubt be helpful for me too.

I am too glad I have good friends and I realize it is a huge blessing. My friend Brent has been Jesus to me and maybe one day, I will believe again because of his unconditional friendship.

I wish everyone could have a Brent as a friend. He asked me what my mamaw would do at this very moment. I told him she would lay her hands on me and pray for me. Despite my unbelief, that is what he did.

I put him in the same circle of men as my father and grandfather and neither of them were\are very religious. All three of them would run into a burning building to save me, even if it couldn’t be done.

I do not forsake the fear of the Almighty, I just don’t believe in him. I believe in people like Brent and that is enough for now.

I only want to say two things–I think it was Leland who briefly touched on the headcovering thing. I think that juxtaposed with what Ray says about male leadership transcending all time is kind of funny. How do we know which transcends and which doesn’t?

Second, I am of the opinion that we pretty much are a bit backward on the role of women and men in the church. Our elders, for the most part, are chosen because they are good business men and have done well in the world of business. We “relegate” women to the potlucks and teaching the little kids. They are generally the ones who provide most of the service in the church. According to Jesus, that makes us (women) the leaders.

“A despairing man should have the devotion of his friends, even though he forsakes the fear of the Almighty.” (Job 6:14) I’m glad you have good friends.

My aim is not to use my grief as a power play. It is only meant to tell you why I say what I say and why I say it in such a manner.

Troy, your tone is fine if its honest. If I am being an asshole tell me, I can take it. If I think women’s roles in the CoC are unethical I will use the strongest sometimes most profane words I can find because good and bad have lost their meaning due to our lack of transparency.

You should harbor no embarrassment, honesty can survive life’s ebb and flow.

And good luck to you as well! Enjoy the the fetishization of God talk.

I too, am sorry for your loss. I’m embarrassed to say that my tone would have been different, had I known of your grieving. If there is anything you need, or any way I can help you, just say the word.

Troy

Thank you so much for demonstrating that honest discussion can happen. I pray this never stops. I’ve spent too many hours among fellow human beings who don’t care enough to go through the painful process of opening their heads and hearts to others.

I don’t care where you stand… don’t stop talking and listening to the other human beings on this planet. Silence is the only sure-fire way to destroy all hope.

Silencing is the worst form of violence.

“Leland, I don’t know why you give a flying flip about what goes on on this blog since you claim to be a nonbeliever who thinks religion is hogwash. Do you really think spouting obscenities at us is going to change anybody’s opinion here? If you feel the need to respond, please keep your comments clean…”

First of all thank you for you honesty, not offended at all.

Second, I give a flip because I do attend a CoC because my friends attend there. I lost my faith early this year but did not lose my friends as a result. Some people’s faith were strengthened for the very reason I lost mine. Lost my mammaw (grandmother) and Adam 30 days apart. And the two church’s reactions to both events had a profound impact on my being.

Forgive my anger and sarcasm, its better than using Jack Daniels, which I have recently done as well.