Avoiding Counternarratives
Thanks to Richard B. for this link: Luke Timothy Johnson and Eve Tushnet, a freelance journalist who is a lesbian, take different positions on the Catholic Church’s prohibitions against homosexuality. You may be surprised.
Here’s a statement from Tushnet: “But our human experience, including our erotic experience, cannot be a replacement for the divine revelation preserved by the church. We must be careful not to let it become a counternarrative or a counter-Scripture.”
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I’m going to spend a few days here working through John Stackhouse’s wonderful Finally Feminist: A Pragmatic Christian Understanding of Gender (Acadia Studies in Bible and Theology)
Stackhouse honestly shows that the Bible is both feminist and patriarchal. It has passages that sound complementarian and those that are egalitarian (for those who are familiar with this language). And he seeks to show why that’s the case.
Here are a few words from the end:
“We are happy to affirm for the record that men are not inherently superior to women, that male and female together are created in the imago Dei. But then we act as if males really are superior — superior as topics for Bible study, superior to lead in church and home, even superior to represent all human beings (as in the so-called generic language of ‘mankind’). Where are the women? More basically, where is the female, the feminine, the not-male in the Bible, in our churches and families, and in God? We must resist contemporary extremes such as lesbian marriages and goddess worship. We must resist the loss of rich biblical truth encoded in masculine language for God in the Bible and in traditional theology. But our fear of those losses must not keep us in a masculinist extreme. We must encourage more women to undertake careers in theological scholarship. We must hear women’s voices in our churches. We men must ask feminist questions along with our more standard lines of intellectual interrogation. We must pray for God to forgive us our sexist sins, heal our blindness, motivate our hearts, and open our minds. If the women are absent in biblical and theological studies, we are missing out on half of the Story.”
I never said that it being “consensual” or “between adults” were the primary characteristics, but merely two in a line of others.
I also do not believe that for the last 2,000 years there is ANY issue that Christians have universally agreed upon. If you plan on making an appeal to the view of the majority of the Christian body for that majority amount of time let me go one step ahead and say that the Bible was interpreted by the majority in a specific way for the first 1600 years of Christianity before Martin Luther decided to break with the “traditional view.” And even today Protestants are outnumbered by Catholics 3 to 1. I have never understood Protestants that appeal to tradition. The very fabric of their creation was based on debunking tradition.
As far as God “remembering to put something in.” I think the Biblical writers spoke to issues they witnessed first hand. The Bible does not tell us which car to buy or whether or not to shop at Wal-mart not because “God forgot to put it in,” but because there were no cars or Wal-marts. We can however examine Biblical principles about possessions and stewardship and make these decisions. My argument for homosexuality is very similar. From what I have been taught about historical context, there is no biblical writer who witnessed a committed loving relationship between two people of the same sex, so I consider the Biblical text to be silent about this specific type of relationship. However, I do believe we can examine the biblical characteristics of an appropriate relationship and deem certain homosexual relationships to fit the criterion.
In reference to your comment about it “fitting better with our desires,” I don’t ever remember saying my position on homosexuality was spurned from a personal desire. As far as playing the It-seems-like-a-good-thing-by-my-standards-so-God-must-like-it card, I am not making that appeal. I am playing the It-fits-in-accordance-with-the-best-understanding-I-have-of-the-will-of-God card.
Ray – I agree in Romans 1 Paul presents this type of homosexuality being displayed as an outcome of suppressing the truth. Like I said before, I believe there are different ways of expressing homosexuality and the expression of it within Romans 1 is in violation with many other principles. You continue to state that “Scripture is clear that all homosexual behavior is sinful,” without offering any reinforcement to the statement. I, along with many others, do not find your clarity, but rather see a rejection of one specific manifestation of homosexuality.
As for you comment about women, are you saying there is never an appropriate situation for a woman to be allowed to speak in an assembly? I think the people arguing against you on this topic would not say that they are elevating the individual above the will of God, but merely understand the will of God differently than you.
Richard,
To appropriate the thinking of Luke Timothy Johnson, if I explicitly appeal to the weight of my own experience, I would come to conclusions about you based upon your most recent post that would cause me to say some things that would be considered rather un-Christian. However, since I happen to believe Scripture trumps my own experience, I will keep it to myself.
Nancy,
that link was dead when i clicked it. a238phreak@gmail.com if you’d like to send something there.
Jim,
To appropriate the thinking of Lewis Black, following Jesus, “if you thought it, you did it.” none of this passive-aggressive “say it by saying i didn’t say it” stuff, please; we’re christians.
Ray B.,
would you do me the favor of directly responding to my question? i asked if you got the irony of defending the bride of christ from feminization. i ask that because i want to take seriously the tradition, beginning with the prophets and continuing through john’s gospel and apocalypse, of picturing israel/church as feminine. any chance you might offer, or point me toward, a positive statement of which spiritual gifts, which roles, which forms of leadership (always redefined in scripture as servanthood) women are commissioned to take up by God? i’d love for our exchange to extend past disagreeing on what the church ought not do, all the way to affirming what we’re seeing God do in our churches through women.
Brian, Richard, Ray B, et alia,
anyone have any takes on tom wright’s view of the authoritative use of the biblical narrative? http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Bible_Authoritative.htm
i’d say our brother the bishop of durham eloquently and faithfully frames the argument some of us (especially those named above) are having.
I thought scripture was someone else’s experience at a point in time. People’s experiences has changed but the Christian time point of reference has not.
There are so many obtuse, ad nauseum discussions going on here it is hard for non-mysterious people such as myself (unlike Jonathan) to be engaged or even give a shit.
With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
Steven Weinberg, quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999
US physicist (1933 – )
Got this quote off Google.
What we have done to homosexuals is evil. What the rest of civilization has done is good. We need to strt playing catch up. Its 4th down in the 4ht quarter.
Manley .
I did say women have a vital and important role in the church. My concern is with the instructions concerning leadership in the church from the New Testament. The leadership is given to the men in the home and in the church. Not a popular statement to make in this current world. But the kingdom and the world will always collide. The women of the church have significant and valuable contributions to make to the body of Christ. Their participation in the home , the church and their outreach to the world is crucial.
Brian L. ,
I do not know how to add to what I have already said other than to say Romans 1 makes it clear to me that all homosexual behavior is sinful . And as to women in the assembly , I refer to I Timothy 2 and I Cor 14 . And yes I know some will not agree with me. Just giving my view in the discussion.
Richard ,
Certainly God can take care of himself. He is all-powerful and sovereign. Personally , I just want to obey Him and give Him glory and try to understand every aspect of His divine , perfect and wonderful attributes.
Jim,
Sorry to have caused you to struggle with me, but I am expressing a cogent point.
To suggest that a Transcendent God could be moved to spasms of anger at a woman elder or preacher or at two lonely people of the same gender finding each other in this hellhole of a world, paints a sick and demented picture of God. Seriously, what kind of God is that, to fly of the handle for moral peccadilloes?
Maybe you are right and that is the way God is, but there would be little to inspire worship in that God if he were not so big and held hell as the big stick.
But there are some of us, devout Christians, people who sit beside you in the pew, who think God isn’t really like that. We think the final and ultimate witness about God is this: “God is love.” And that all Scriptural witnesses about God before and after that great and grand revelation are fragmentary and partial and must be so read.
Hey, maybe I’m wrong and God sends me to hell for honoring a women’s dignity in the church or saying live and let live to the homosexual community. But you know what, I’ll look at God and say “You’re sending me to hell for THAT?” And if he says “Yes” my response is simple, “Fine. Because I’m ashamed of you.”
Manley — ah, good, you’re a psychologist: “none of this passive-aggressive “say it by saying i didn’t say it.”" I suppose if I were as passive-aggressive as you say, I might steal my moniker from Flannery O’Connor and sign my name that way, don’t you think?
I’m sorry, I thought that would fit right in. Sort of like, “I know the Bible says it, but I’ll say it didn’t say it, or I will appeal to my experience over Scripture.” Sort of a passive-aggressive hermeneutic. And, what do you mean by appealing to Jesus, via Lewis Black, by telling me if I thought it I did it? I think it important to state clearly that I do, in fact, reject the straightforward commands of Scripture, and appeal instead to another authority when I declare that sarcasm and bad thoughts can be holy and good. And what exactly is that authority? I appeal explicitly to the weight of my own experience and the experience thousands of others have witnessed to, which tells us that to claim our own sarcasm and bad attitudes are in fact to accept the way in which God has created us.
Richard, you sure put a lot of words in my mouth regarding God’s character. I think you missed my point.
Kisses and hugs to all.
Ray B.
I think Brian’s point is that Romans 1 is not refering to a relationship of two consensual adults. While I dont agree with Brian’s conclusion, I think that in Romans 1 that homosexaulity is not between consensual adults.
Homosexual behavior is sinful . It is wrong. It will never be right. All sin can be forgiven. All of us need the precious blood of Jesus to save us from the eternal consequences of any and all sin.
Richard: “God, I’m ashamed of you?”
Have you not read the book of Job? Surely you jest, or qb is misunderstanding you, or something. But to speak as though you are willing to stand as judge of the creator of the universe is a remarkable display of hubris. One supposes you might have the wisdom to season your positions with a degree of humility that says, “if I’m wrong, which is possible, God will set me straight, and I’ll submit to his infinite wisdom.” But what you actually said is starkly different.
Mercy.
qb
Who cares who stands on the stage..woman, man, holder of BA in Biblical studies or just some guy or girl who got his or her GED?..good grief..we are killing ourselves here…and missing out on some incredible fellowship.
and….two people who have held my hands and my heart this last year from miles away have been a homosexual man from Montreal who tells me God is with me and calls on me and Sam regularly. Another is a Lesbian who lives in Denver who has surprised me with financial help when I was struggling..
Black and white laws and rules and exact theories on what sin is is a secure place to be for some but it sure does alienate those who would otherwise be touched by your love for the Master…
Great post Mike…man, I got too much to say as usual right?
Mike,
Love the quote. Sounds like a good book. Thanks for pointing it out to us.
qb,
I think you are missing the rhetorical point. I’m shaming an idol here. Not God.
And btw, are you just totally unaware that billions of people are refusing to come to Christianity because Christians are trotting out a shameful version of God?
I mean, here’s the situation. Most Christians are basically sending this message: “I know that God is going to horrifically torture 99.99% of all humanity for all eternity, but He really is GOOD, He really loves you. Really.”
I mean, how addled is that message? No wonder we come off as screwballs. You don’t think people might have some slight moral quibbles with God on this score? A wee little quibble? And you say that those quibbles are acts of hubris? Hubris!? Are you kidding me?
jim,
i’d like to start by asking forgiveness for any ire i’ve raised. i’m not trying to be mean; i’m just trying to have some conversations. so let’s keep the conversation going by not saying we’re sorry if we don’t mean it, and clarifying our points if others miss them.
“manley pointer” is not a passive aggressive theft; it’s a pseudonym, or an allusion.
it’s intended to point people toward my interest in literature, particularly the short stories of Flannery O’Connor, which you obviously recognized. i’m also shooting for some irony by giving myself the name of a lying, cheating traveling bible salesman. this is a caricature most of the world think fits us perfectly, and sadly, we often paint ourselves just that way in our discussions on the internet.
jim, I’d honestly like to know why you took that self-revelation and used it to attack me. in hopes of disarming any further ad hominem attacks: my name is nick dunn. i was recently a member of niceville church of christ and campus church of christ (UF). my personal email address can be found in a recent comment.
but back to the rest of us,
an informal poll: would anyone interested in the hermeneutical question at hand, namely how we look at the bible to find out how to live out Jesus’ way, please explain in just a few words your favorite metaphor for how the bible works? is it truth? all the truth? every truth? is it a rulebook? is it a story? a novel? a play? an instruction manual? a theology text?
finally, does anyone see room in Jesus’ teaching about the Spirit in John 14-16 for the idea that we don’t read new truth into scripture, but that we may be led by the Spirit through scripture into truths that aren’t spelled out verbatim in scripture?
Mike, I’ve looked around for your podcast sermon on women’s roles. It may have been on the Zoe website at one time, but could you link to it again?
MP,
“an informal poll: would anyone interested in the hermeneutical question at hand, namely how we look at the bible to find out how to live out Jesus’ way, please explain in just a few words your favorite metaphor for how the bible works? is it truth? all the truth? every truth? is it a rulebook? is it a story? a novel? a play? an instruction manual? a theology text?”
Outdated and the source of good men doing evil things in the name of God. Hermeneutical sounds like some air tight sealing method.
leland..”Hermeneutical sounds like some air tight sealing method.”…you made me laugh outloud on that one.
The intersection of culture and Christainity seems to always be in tension. Red, Yellow, finally Green. There is always a constant dispute over the balance of the two, but in my heart, I believe there is a better way.
http://www.matthewsblog.waynesborochurchrist.org
Manley P,
Here’s my hermeneutical metaphor:
The bible is an autostereogram.
Think about it.
Does anyone ever wonder why God chose to speak on the issue of a woman’s role (in the church and the home) through an unmarried man who likely had very few deep relationships with women throughout his life?
Mark,
You forget Mary Magdelene.
Paul chose to speak on women’s roles, don’t attribute it to God.
Jesus had very little to say and nothing directly (written by him)to say about the matter.
I think Jesus could give a shit about leadership being male or female.
I was actually speaking of Paul, not Jesus. Sorry for the confusion.
Speaking of Jesus and how he related to women, I came across this excellent piece from Dorothy Sayers recently. It is quoted by Yancey in his book The Jesus I Never Knew:
“Perhaps it is no wonder that the women were first at the Cradle and last at the Cross. They had never known a man like this Man – there never has been such another. A prophet and teacher who never nagged at them, never flattered or coaxed or patronised: who never made arch jokes about them, never treated them either as ‘The women, God help us!’ or ‘The ladies, God bless them!; who rebuked without querulousness and praised without condescension; who took their questions and arguments seriously; who never mapped out their sphere for them, never urged them to be feminine or jeered at them for being female; who had no axe to grind and no uneasy male dignity to defend; who took them as he found them and was completely unselfconscious.”
“There is no act, no sermon, no parable in the whole Gospel that borrows its pungency from female perversity; nobody could possibly guess from the words and deeds of Jesus that there was anything “funny” about woman’s nature. But we might easily deduce it from His contemporaries, and from His prophets before Him, and from His Church to this day.”
Amy
If I may answer for Mike, the podcast is the last one listed under Resources, then podcasts. It’s the sermon of a date none of us at Highland will ever forget, January 16, 2005.
Jan 16, 2005: Mike Cope – Women, Gifts, and the Body of Christ. 14.8 MB 1:05:05
Hope that helps.
Kathy
I would again suggest reading Sarah Sumner’s Men and Women in the Church. It is one of the clearest, best stated I’ve come across in a long time on the question of women exercising God-given gifts in open church settings. Also, she has written one of the best on headship and marriage in this same book. Wonderful book, imho.
Mark,
Good words from Yancey. THX
I think it is interesting that Jesus chose men to be His apostles. When the apostles spoke or wrote they wrote by the authority of Jesus. When they wrote about male leadership they wrote as men inspired by the Father , the Son and the Holy Spirit. Jesus cared a great deal about male leadership. But he cared about all of us and died so we can be forgiven. He is the head of the church and whenever He speaks then we should all pay attention. And when His apostles speak , He is speaking.
Ray: Do you think Jesus was influenced by the culture of the day when choosing his apostles? In other words, is it possible that, if God had entered the world as a mechanic in London in 2007 (for example), rather than a Jewish carpenter 2000 years ago, he might choose his apostles differently?
Mark ,
It really does not make any difference about today. That would be conjecture on my part. It is just very interesting that God has chosen male leadership. The scriptures transcend all time and culture. Culture cannot dictate the living word.
Thank you, Kathy! I am sure that is a date your blessed church will never forget. Waiting for it to happen here.
Ray B.
You must have attended ” I Got It All Figured Out University” and graduated with honors.
Let me know if they have some kind of on line thing going, I sure could use some\alot of classes to eradicate my stupidity on how women are not fully capable to lead the church.
In case you wondering that wasn’t spoken in love. It was spoken in disdain for a culture which limits its full membership to the good old boy club.
And if you argue women lead with the pot luck (and other non elder/preacher) ministries thats just pure bullshit. Until women are elders and preachers in the CoC they are second class participants.
Some don’t won’t the role but neither do some men.
Leland ,
All I hhave written about is guided by the word of God. If I could find the scriptures that teach women can be elders then I would teach such but that is not what is written. And there is in I Timothy 2 and I Cor. 14 instructions that tell us that the men should be the preachers. It is God’s design. Not my idea but the divine plan.
I have already said that women have a vital part in the work of the church. They can teach,be invovlved in evangelism, benevolence and a myriad of very important works. And in no way are they second class participants. Those are your words, not mine.
None of what I have said has anything to do with culture. Culture does not dictate the divine standard. Only when the word is taught and obeyed will the church continue to be relevant because what the church teaches and practices is counter- cultural. I know many will disagree with me. And no , I do not have it all figured out. Again , those are your words. At this point , in my understanding of scripture , this is where I stand.
The premise that women are inferior or incapable of leading the church is a complete fabrication. It is not a viewpoint of God and is not stated or implied anywhere in the Bible. It is an arguement that is put forth by proponants of women in leadership roles in church, because they cannot argue with the truth. The truth is that God simply prohibited it. He doesn’t support his decision or justify it in any way. He certainly does not say that women are incapable, incompetent, or inferior. To win the arguement, people have to put words in God’s mouth.
Troy,
“The premise that women are inferior or incapable of leading the church is a complete fabrication….The truth is that God simply prohibited it.”
Why would God prohibit it if the premise were not true? Man prohibited it in the name of God.
“…because they cannot argue with the truth.” What truth you talking about? The one in your fairytale land or the one supported by modern reality?
Leland,
You made a mistake. You left out the “s” word.
“Why would God prohibit it if the premise were not true?” That’s the beauty of it. God is smarter than you. He is not confined to your pseudo intellectual laws and restrictions. He does not have to explain himself. That’s what drives you people crazy. You cannot even accept the fact that God is right.
By your comments, I doubt that you’re in agreement with 2 Timothy 3:16. You would have to deny it in order to dismiss 1 Cor.14:34 and 1 Tim.2:11-12. These are the truths I’m referring to.
One of the comforts I take from this discussion, is the realization that you, and most of the ones who have posted above, are on the extreme left fringe. I know this, because most of you don’t possess the courage of your own convictions. You’re afraid to take that step that would test your beliefs. You’re also afraid of the loss of power and influence. Otherwise, Mike would turn the pulpit over to a woman, or Rick Atchley would add instruments to Sunday morning worship.
Troy,
“One of the comforts I take from this discussion, is the realization that you, and most of the ones who have posted above, are on the extreme left fringe. I know this, because most of you don’t possess the courage of your own convictions. You’re afraid to take that step that would test your beliefs.”
I would take that step if I could but you “right wingers” hold the power. Although you have tried to demonstare clairvoyance wrt to my courage, you have failed miserably.
I am not a left winger either by the way. I am a non-believer in your fairy tale religion. It refuses to treat others with equality and respect in all matters. I’ll just love “all” my neighbors and leave the religion alone.
I’ll advocate killing my enemies which would kill my children or community. If I loved my enemies they wouldn’t be my enemies would they (makes sense huh, sorry I did that).
The “s” word that offends you the most is sense, not shit. You are more worrried about being offended than real truth (reality).
You’re afraid to examine your beliefs and peek under the veil of outdated oppressive traditions. I know you have a direct line to God and all, but maybe you got a busy signal on this one.
Hey maybe your right, maybe we should oppress women. How’s the wifes daily head dress requirement going? How’s the not helping the widow’s under 65 going? Seems like the cherry picking is going well.
Richard, I don’t think I’ve missed your point at all. Your “explanation” only confirms what I thought I was reading. Cheers, and good luck with that. qb
troy,
as a brother of rick atchley in christ, i’m going to take him at his word. he didn’t say he was afraid of you, others like you, your judgment or opinion, or anything else. he said he loves you, respects you, and honors our shared tradition of a capella music in corporate worship.
you raise a question i’ve had for a while, though. do women regularly occupy the highland pulpit in the role of teacher, exhorter, evangelist?
ray b,
of course culture doesn’t “dictate” to God or scripture. what do you make of mike’s argument that slavery and segregation were always unchristian, but this teaching only became clear (and realized) in a certain cultural context?
I don’t presume to know anyone….but I wonder wouldn’t it be nice for some men to hold their tongues in these comments, remove their comments and listen to what our friends are saying of the female persuasion…and yet maybe there in lies our problem we don’t listen very well.
Hey Happy,
Don’t be so cryptic, say what you mean? Who needs to hold their tongue, remove their comments and listen?
Maybe the problem is we don’t say what we feel. Maybe its out of fear and as a result stupid traditions progress.
I disagree with Greg Kendall Ball (linked on Mike’s Blog) on just about everything. He even infuriates me sometimes (most), but he does say what he means and I respect him for that. At least I know where he stands.
The church has been having a courtesy stand-off way too long over way too many traditions.
The only MTV saying I ever liked is “Why don’t we stop being nice and start being real?” They go over the top with it more often than not, but others could say the same thing about me.
Leland-
You’ve made it clear that you are the supreme being in your universe. The knower of all things. The perceiver of all truth. Just one problem. It’s not your universe.
Manley-
I too, consider Rick Atchley my brother in Christ. That’s why I’m so passionate about this. It’s not me, or others who beleive as I do, that he is afraid of. It’s people who are on the fence, regarding the use of instrumental music, that can make or break the church that he didn’t build. If he truely had the courage of his convictions, he would resign, and start a new church from scratch.
I read Mike’s blog frequently and somethimes I read the comments posted as well. I don’t think I’ve ever added to the discussion because most of the people who post on here seem to be MUCH smarter than I am; definitely more eloquent. But, I feel like this is something I can speak intelligently about being a) a woman, b) a lifelong member of the coc and c) a lover of God’s word. I don’t think I’m going to comment at all about the homosexual debate since that seems a bit out of my league. suffice it to say that I agree with Ray about what the scriptures say about it and think it is dangerous to speculate about what may or may not have been implied in this or that setting during this or that culture at a certain period of time. While human beings have had the handling of the written word of God forever, I just trust that what we have is what we NEED to have to come into the knowledge of Jesus and His saving sacrifice.
Onto women’s roles…
As a woman in the c o c I have never felt opressed, nor do I know any women who have felt that way. I have never felt this way, I think, because I have always had strong, Godly men who led with grace and love. It is my opinion that the Lord did ordain the care of the church to the shepherds who seem to be men in all of NT scripture. That’s not to say that women can’t have a role in worship, I don’t think. I believe that the gifts the Lord doles out are meant to be used for the body, by anyone who has them, male or female. I don’t believe it is my obligation to submit to ALL men, because they are men, but to one man, my husband. Therefore, I think that if I felt led to offer my gifts in a public way on a Sunday morning, and the shepherds of my congregation thought that it would be benificial to the body where I worship and my husband concurred, I believe it would be ok for me to do that. I think we miss the mark and fail miserably when we say ‘leadership’ is only the things that take place on the stage in a corporate worship setting. Passing plates, singing a solo, reading the announcements, saying prayers aren’t, in my opinion, leadership. The place where this becomes really sticky, to me, is where it can lead to. My husband says the ‘slippery slope arguement’ is not ever valid. So I’ll just say that I think scripture gives clear guidelines to who the shepherds of a congregation are to be and they are men. I worry that eventually we will get to the place where we want to have women shepherds. I,personally, don’t know how a woman could be a shepherd and then come home and be submissive to her husband. I know I couldn’t do it. It seems like this would be a role reversal that would ripple into families and shake up what seems to be God’s plan for how families are to be run, with the husband at the head.
I said at the outset that I have never felt opressed, and I think this is in great part due to the godly men who have been in my family. I think this is the real issue. Women will gladly step in and get things done if we see that they aren’t getting done. When men abdicate their roles as strong, godly leaders, you shouldn’t be surprised when women decide they can and will do better. This pertains to every aspect of our society, in my opinion. You can see in any place you care to look, the absence of men doing what they ought to be doing.
I think my train of thought has come to an end.
Leland, I don’t know why you give a flying flip about what goes on on this blog since you claim to be a nonbeliever who thinks religion is hogwash. Do you really think spouting obsenities at us is going to change anybody’s opinion here? If you feel the need to respond, please keep your comments clean…
All of these issues need to be veiwed in light of the grace we have received through the sacrifice of the Messiah. We have received so much, lets not keep it from each other.
In Christ
Dixie
I would suggest to all of you who feel as if women do not feel oppressed in the Church of Christ, go to Gal328 and read…you will hear stories and you will feel pain…you will witness much searching and a community that held each other up through some very dark times.
Julie- Please provide us with your understanding of Galations 3:28.
I should have said the website Gal328.org. I typed in a hurry. I told myself that I wouldn’t get involved in this conversation but I couldn’t help myself. Gal328 is website dedicated to gender justice in the Churches of Christ. It has not had much action lately but for awhile it was my lifeline.
I apologize for being so cryptic.
Dixie,
“Leland, I don’t know why you give a flying flip about what goes on on this blog since you claim to be a nonbeliever who thinks religion is hogwash. Do you really think spouting obscenities at us is going to change anybody’s opinion here? If you feel the need to respond, please keep your comments clean…”
First of all thank you for you honesty, not offended at all.
Second, I give a flip because I do attend a CoC because my friends attend there. I lost my faith early this year but did not lose my friends as a result. Some people’s faith were strengthened for the very reason I lost mine. Lost my mammaw (grandmother) and Adam 30 days apart. And the two church’s reactions to both events had a profound impact on my being.
Forgive my anger and sarcasm, its better than using Jack Daniels, which I have recently done as well.
Leland, Dixie, Ray B. and all the rest…
Thank you so much for demonstrating that honest discussion can happen. I pray this never stops. I’ve spent too many hours among fellow human beings who don’t care enough to go through the painful process of opening their heads and hearts to others.
I don’t care where you stand… don’t stop talking and listening to the other human beings on this planet. Silence is the only sure-fire way to destroy all hope.
Silencing is the worst form of violence.
Manley ,
All I am saying is that the scriptures teaching about male leadership transcends culture and time. And the scriptures have always had much to say about any kind of injustice.
Leland,
I just want to say that I am sorry for your losses.
Because of the cross
Dixie
Leland,
I too, am sorry for your loss. I’m embarrassed to say that my tone would have been different, had I known of your grieving. If there is anything you need, or any way I can help you, just say the word.
Troy