Pledging Allegiance in the Assembly?
A friend of mine told me how perplexed she was that in a Christian assembly where she was visiting last Sunday morning they said the Pledge of Allegiance. I kid you not.
The Christian assembly is the place where we remember that there is only one ultimate allegiance, and it is to Jesus Christ. It is where we remember that any other ultimate allegiance is idolatry.
The early church didn’t pledge allegiance to Rome. They confessed Jesus as Lord — which was a political statement over against the confession that Caesar is Lord.
Aren’t we to be good citizens? Of course — whether we live in Mexico, Chile, Vietnam, Afghanistan, or the United States. No one nation is God’s nation. He is working in visible and (often) hidden ways in all countries.
There are settings where I say the Pledge of Allegiance. I’m thankful to be a citizen of this country; I deeply appreciate the sacrifices that have been made; and I do see my Christian obligation to be a good citizen. (I’ve written before about the need I sometimes feel to tell people that I’m not talking about the deepest allegiance of my life. Countries come and go; but the kingdom of God keeps encroaching!)
But historically, the Christian assembly has NOT been the place where people pledge their allegiance to a flag or a country. It’s not a place where they celebrate patriotism. Rather, it is a place where they remember that Jesus Christ alone is Lord. It is where they remember the words of Jesus: to come follow him, to turn the other cheek, to love enemies, to have only one Master, to serve one another, to go into all the world, etc. The assembly has been a place where we remember our status as “aliens and strangers” in this world whose true citizenship is in heaven.
You can find earlier blogs that are related here . . . and here.
Is it possible to over analyze something? Perhaps some people do not have enough to do.
I agree, get over it!
“Not necessarily wrong. Just out of place.”
Matt Milligan and GKB on the same dorm floor? No wonder HU has never been the same.
DU
Like many in these responses I am bothered by patriotic displays in church services. During the fourth of july weekend following the March invasion of Iraq, my husband and I visited a friend’s CofC in a Texas city near a military base. Many of the members and family and friends of members were fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan at the time. The church service was entirely a patriotic service, we sang patriotic songs, each prayer had a patriotic theme (well beyond praying for troops), and the sermon was about how the American founders were all great Christians. Praising Jesus certainly took a back seat to praising America that day. At the end of the service the preacher had the usual invatation, but it felt out of place because it was the only thing about Jesus. It would have seemed more appropriate to ask people to come forward to give their hearts to America and become citizens of America than to give their hearts to Christ and become citizens of the Kingdom of God. I can’t help wondering if anyone there was an unbeliever and how that service affected their choice to move towards Christ.
I believe you’ll find that Campbell and Stone had a difference of opinion on similar subjects.
Stone: very much in favor of removing ourselves from “other” allegiances to the point of being uninvolved in society and politics at large, and truly being a people set apart.
Campbell: seemingly winning the day with his focus on how we are to be involved in all aspects of society and politics, which will naturally include the swearing allegiance to something other than G-d.
At least this has been my understanding of their stances. Yet, they found it beneficial, to the glory of Christ, to press forward in fulfilling Jesus prayer for unity in John, to labor and worship together. Wonderful and amazing.
If our Nation is a Christian nation then why was there no mention of the Gospel in our Constitution?
…a blog within a blog…
Maybe you have to come from a military family to understand that when your loved ones are away from you and you miss them terribly and you are a Christian. You pray the Lord watches over them many times a day. You know they are fighting so that some spoiled kid back in the good ole USA can spit on them. I so respect our soldiers and their families and it was Memorial Day weekend. As an American we have our culture and our traditions too. Goodness, Jesus was a Jew and kept all the Jewish ways. Seems there are a bunch of people that want to bash anything American. I am not one of them.
Terry,
I don’t believe “so that spoiled kids in the good ole USA can spit on them” was one of the reasons GWB posited for going to war…
Roland, I think we’re missing each other. I didn’t say that making promises was bad or wedding vows, which are clearly made as a covenant before God – even with God.
Pledging allegiance to a nation is quite a different thing.
But I’ll go with your thinking. If my wife comes between me and God, then I choose God by loving her. Yes, I love her no matter what. I do not reject her if she rejects God, but I do not submit to her against God’s will. I do not worship her over the God. In fact, many people language their voews such that God is over all. I am grateful not to be in such a siutation.
A marriage under God is something that can be done. A nation under God is not possible – not anymore anyway.
Plus, the political reality of a pledge to a nation and pledge to a marriage are quite different.
Finally, in marriage I am supposed to reject all others in that form of relationship. I am not called to reject all other nations but my nation. In fact, where a relationship to a spouse is intentionally exclusive, my relationship with people of the world should be inclusive.
Sorry Roland, your comparison just doesn’t work.
By the way, there is much to love about America – and I love those things.
GKB,
I think you just hit below the belt when you insulted the office of the President of the United States. Let’s not turn this into a GWB is an idiot tirade. Besides, us “conservatives” would not have a defensible position.
After all, no matter the quality of the president or the premise of our most-recent conflict, the premise of this post and your take would remain the same. Thus, such a dive into these areas is compound and redundant. That is all.
RCorum: I had no idea Andrew was going into active duty after graduation. He will be in my daily prayers!
hey- i just wrote about pledges a few months ago on my blog:
I think it is incredibly dumb, not to mention a waste of time that children in Texas schools must recite the pledge of allegiance to the Texas state flag each morning. This used to bother me a lot back when I was teaching school. I had not thought about it recently, but the other night on the news I heard there is some effort to add the words “under God” to the Texas pledge. To me, it would make more sense to just do away with the pledge altogether. Granted, it doesn’t waste MUCH time, since it is incredibly short:
“Honor the Texas flag; I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one and indivisible.”
To me, saying this pledge is a complete lie. Allegiance means “loyalty or commitment of a subordinate to a superior or of an individual to a group or cause.” I am not loyal or committed to Texas. I don’t see why Texas needs to single itself out from the entire United States in some special claim of allegiance from its residents. To take it one step further, I am not completely sure about the United States Pledge.
“I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands: one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”
I personally do not feel complete allegiance to America. The only thing in my life that I feel allegiance to is God. That doesn’t mean I don’t respect the government, its laws, and authority.
But respect is so different from allegiance. Respect means “avoid harming or interfering with” or “agree to recognize and abide by (a legal requirement).”
Maybe this is all a bunch of linguistic hoops, but it is worth considering.
Wait…
When I was growing up in Memphis at Sycamore View, we would always sing patriotic songs at church around the 4th of July.
Has this tradition gone the way of our civil liberties?
Was I right or what??? 116 comments!
BTW: Sorry “Fajita” but you are the one who is wrong. The comparison works in many ways — you just need to put your thinking cap on! One certainly can pledge allegiance to their country in much the same way as they pledge allegiance to their spouse. It is a promise of support, service and loyalty — inasmuch as it does not conflict with one’s devotion to God.
There are certainly some ways that it breaks down, but Roland didn’t claim it was a perfect comparison.
Pledging allegiance to your country is certainly not “betrayal.” Sheesh.
When you say the pledge of allegiance to the US flag in church, it is betrayal. How can I have an allegiance to a nation whose government is immoral in many ways? How can I pledge allegiance to that which is opposite fo what God desires?
Politics is always subordinate to faith. Always. They are not equals. First century Christians who pledged their alleigiance to being Jewish were jolted out of their allegiance when the Gentiles were welcomed in. Yes, they could still be Jewish, but not Jewsish first. Not at the level of allegiance. It was secondary or it was wrong.
If the pledge of allegiance to the US flag means “thanks for the affluent and relatively safe country,” that’s one thing. If it means I will support everything my country does because I am of this country. Sorry. That’s betrayal when you country asks you to be immoral.
Finally, to say the pledge in church (of all places), as part of a worship service, forget it. It is sickening and offensive and it separates the in-group from the out-group. It indicates who is welcome and who is not welcome. It places a social requirement on being a member that has nothing to do with God. It is not being good news to people who do not participate. It can’t do anything else.
My thinking cap is on my friend.
Shocking – a legitimate comment/debate on whether the pledge should be part of a corporate worship assembly turns into the usual USA bashing and Christians-cannot-be-soliders discussion. Shocking.
I still think that most of the people commenting today against war and soldiers and the “naive 17-18 year olds” would be talking a different talk if the war was right here in the good old USA. It is so much easier to criticize when you have all the answers and it didn’t cost you a thing. You are right Richie…. and it is the same people doing the bashing and having all the right answers.
I don’t know if Mike reads these comments or not. Sometimes I think he just throws things out there to sit back and watch the cats and dogs fight. No wonder we can’t have unity in the church. There are so many things we like listening to ourselves talk about that really don’t matter.
Do you think some of you maybe should just “think” about his blog instead of responding with your superior knowledge to everything that is said?
Ahh, the patriotism debate again. As I sit here thinking about this, I totally “get” how saying the pledge in church makes people uncomfortable — it would make me uncomfortable, too. However, what makes me even more uncomfortable is the lack of respect and love that is shown by so many in regards to our great nation. I am SO glad that our forefathers were not a bunch of “make love not war” wussies like I see so often in our society and frankly on this blog from time to time. Does anyone really think Saddam or Osama and the like would come around and make nice if we sat down at a table and “discussed” our global problems? Heck, no! Sometimes we need to show force in order to stand up for what is right. I, too, wish our troops were home again and not fighting someone else’s civil war; however, I think the lack of respect shown to our soldiers during this time of war is disgusting.
I agree R.
Who is so patriotic that they would be immoral in support of his country? Forget what the topic is: war or whatever. There is more to the US government that is against God than war, if the war is even against God.
There is a point when love for country conflicts with love for God. There is a point when mission of America interferes with the mission of God. God is the beginning and the end of allegiance.
America is a mission field like the Roman empire was. America needs redemption, not worship.
Our church held a memorial day service at the local cemetary for those who wanted to pay honor to the hero’s who have given their lives. It was the first time. We invited all the churches in town: Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Church of Living God, Community Church, announced at their services on Sunday. Monday we had a good turn out for the first service. We started with the pledge, then prayer, history of memorial day, sang america the the beautiful, open up time for people to share the memories of their loved ones who had sacrificed their lives for our freedom, sang God bless america and ended with a prayer for our nation and thanking God for the freedom willingness and for the safty of the current troop over seas. It was great!
Let us not forget our troops!
Let us keep them in our prayers daily!
Let us never forget the freedoms that we enjoy in america as well as in Christ Jesus our Lord!
Everyone keeps saying it’s wrong to say the pledge of allegiance in church. Funny, aren’t we the “denomination” that says our building isn’t as important as the people.
Day after day, millions cry out to God for His wisdom and direction in the ways of this country and yet, many are still so afraid to believe He will actually provide that direction. Folks get so caught up in their own agenda of believing in the bad they see that they forget to look for the good God is doing…..right here in our own country. Believing in the good of this country is not worship toward the country. It’s worship to the One that many, including me and many of you, call on to guide the United States of America every day. I believe in the good that America does accomplish and will accomplish because of my faith in God. Not in spite of it or in opposition to it.
Some of you sound like the whiners and squeakers we all have in our individual churches. The ones that complain about everything that happens and always point out the bad that occurs and rarely if ever focus on the good. The constant drum beat of negative language will bring a church down and kill unity faster than anything. It will also kill our country.
Yes, we are called to love our enemies, but we are also called to love our neighbors. Some of you seem to think that we have to choose one or the other. God calls us to do both.
I guess I’m not in the mood for this debate or somehow the tone has rubbed me wrong. I agree with Mike’s observations but I don’t get what all the fuss is about.
I just came from a web site where people of all kinds of churches and faiths were pledging prayers for a family who lost their young son and have a daughter in ICU with life altering injuries. I don’t care if those making comments of that site pledge allegiance to a flag or not, they were showing the love of the Father. After reading comments on this blog tonight, I wonder what some commenters were trying to show? I’m not feeling the love.
While a couple have suggested, based purely on inferences, that surely the centurions mentioned so positively in the Bible must have left the military profession, neither John the Baptist, nor Jesus, nor Peter suggested that soldiers (who were asking in two of the cases what they needed to do to please God) leave the military. No soldier in the New Testament is told to leave the military to please God. As regards “naive soldiers,” I have taught classes to military units and to churches near military posts which addressed the difficulties of being both a minister of God with the sword (Rom. 13)and a “person of peace.” As an elder (and retired soldier) told me when I was a young naive civilian preacher, “Most soldiers want peace much more fervently than their fellow citizens.” On the other hand, the reason I feel uncomfortable with the pledge in a worship assembly is that one does not have to be an American to be a Christian, and especially in university areas, several in attendance might might not be Americans. And, I have been in military chapels where prayers were offered for the enemy and their families and for people who might just get caught in the middle of the conflict.
When Jesus said, “give to Ceasar what is Ceasar’s and to God what is God’s” he was addressing this very issue. Yes, the context was paying taxes, but the meaning of the statement runs deeper than taxes. I don’t think anyone here is saying not to love America. I think the question is how to love America.
Maybe allegiance needs a little “a” in reference to America (or whichever counrty) and a capital “A” in reference to God. Or maybe the pledge of allegiance is due for an overhaul.
“I pledge my support to the United States of America in the good she does for her people and those around the world. I support her ideals of liberty and justice for all people. I pledge to support her when she is right and confront her when she is wrong. I promise my support to the extent that she is a blessing to her own people and to the world.”
OK, that was off the top of my head and it is actually pretty lame, but what a statement like this does is build in some limits and eliminate blind faith in a government. I think we all agree that we want to support what is good about America and diminish what is bad about America. I know that we will not ever all agree on what is good or bad, but maybe it is more honest assessment of allegiance.
God loves America and Christians should follow God’s lead. God also loves Iran, and Christians should follow that lead. In fact, I would wager to say that God has pledged His allegiance to loving America – and Iran and whatever other country. “For God so loved the world…” With that kind of love, with that kind of allegiance to love, God’ is boundless and transcendent. God’s allegiance is to loving the world, nations, and people, but His allegiacne is not to obey them.
God is in the world, but not of the world. God is America, but not of America. God is in me, but not of me. The difference is huge. God only submits to the world in ways that satisfy his incarnational mission to redeem the world, which means he never loses his transcendence. He is not contained within anything. We must strive to be incarnational Christians on a mission to redeem this world we love, this nations we love, and people we love.
You rock, Fajita.
GKB…yes, at College church in Searcy we regularly pray for our enemies…and there have been many prayers mentioning some of the well known leaders by name…not just that the war would end, but that they could come to know Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.
I see here a disconnect between both theory and reality as well as form and substance.
I’m hearing theories that say, “I can’t pledge allegiance to God and country, because God is above all.” I don’t disagree that God is above all. His reign is supreme, despite our limited understanding of His power, plan, and purpose.
The problem with that theory is the interpretation. Several have taken this to mean that because God is above all, I can’t pledge “allegiance,” to anything else. Of course, several of these people are married, own sports memorabilia, are members of various societies, and are employed. All of these are, of course, voluntary allegiances, as is our citizenship.
In reality, God knows that all governments are limited because they are run by men. Of course, in His great sovereignity, He uses their free will to achieve His purpose. For this reason and others, we are told to “honor the King.” I contend that God wants me to be a good citizen. I also would submit that citizenship and participation in this country’s causes, unlike many others is completely voluntary. Thus, I can be a good citizen and pledge allegiance, to this country, without being a blasphemer or an idolator because I am pledging not my soul, but to be the best citizen of this political entity that I can be, knowing full well–whether it is written or not–that this is a nation “under God.”
When the pledge was undergoing some scrutiny recently, what part did people get upset about changing: “One nation?” “to the Flag?” “Liberty and Justice for All?” No, people got upset about “Under God.” This has always been my favorite part of the pledge. Despite our human failings, we are still “Under God.” Not necessarily approved by God, but under His sovereignity. We always will be. I see this as worship, which is why I don’t have a problem with it.
Since this is long, I will press on. When you pledge allegiance to the flag, you do not blindly endorse all of the nation’s actions. Remember, this is voluntary. Our citizenship is voluntary. Our participation in the democratic process is voluntary. If we don’t like something, we can do our part to change it. We pledge to the flag, not to the War on Terror or the acceptance of abortion. We pledge to the flag.
When I married my wife, I didn’t pledge to agree with everything she said, nor did I pledge to approve of everything she did. Instead, I pledged to support her and be guided by God. In the same way, when I pledge to the flag, I’m not endorsing America’s past, present or future. No, I’m simply saying that I will be the best citizen I can be “under God.”
Again, if you torture the pledge, it’ll confess anything. Instead, I ask that we look at the wording of the pledge and realize that our citizenship is not in direct opposition to God, but rather, a vehicle to serve Him. Our allegiance to the flag is not blasphemy, it is one of many means by which we may achieve His purpose and honor God by honoring the king. Finally, pledging is not a blanket endorsement of America as a whole, it is a statement that we will serve under God. Let’s not let semantics, America’s past, or misplaced sympathy turn our hearts away from a true blessing that God has bestowed upon us…American citizenship.
Wow Matt. That’s was awesome. For lack of words…..ditto!
I’m sorry some of you think that supporting our country is blind faith. That’s sad.
Wow Matt. I completely agree with you, and I could not have said it any better.
Go read Confessions of An Economic Hit Man by John Perkins, then come back and tell me how proud you are to be an American. Personally, I was sickened at this nation when I read about how for the better part of a century, the US has participated in a kind of “economic colonialism,” promising poor countries around the world that by allowing American contractors to conduct astronomically expensive development projects, these nations would eventually achieve untold economic success. This was a lie, of course, as all these nations got were mountains of debt to the United States and a land stripped of whatever natural resources we could mine (research the history of American affairs in Honduras and Panama, for instance). Oh, but the presidents of these nations became very wealthy at the time, of course, but overall, the poor were crushed and the nation was in worse shape than before we came “to help.”
(as I was reading this, I thought about how it was happening again in Iraq today — how US contracting companies are fattening up at the expense of an entire country we are occupying. War is good for business, after all! Watch this documentary, for instance)
This is how we roll, people. The “land of the free and home of the brave.” America is first and foremost a corporation, a business, running solely on the bottom line, and all domestic and foreign policy hinges on this. The US government therefore incapable of caring for the widow and the orphan, because widows and orphans are not good for the bottom line. This is true of all governments, of course, but some are able to throw their weight around a little more than others.
I guess that’s the price of freedom, though.
Go read Confessions of An Economic Hit Man by John Perkins, then come back and tell me how proud you are to be an American. Personally, I was sickened at this nation when I read about how for the better part of a century, the US has participated in a kind of “economic colonialism,†promising poor countries around the world that by allowing American contractors to conduct astronomically expensive development projects, these nations would eventually achieve untold economic success. This was a lie, of course, as all these nations got were mountains of debt to the United States and a land stripped of whatever natural resources we could mine (research the history of American affairs in Honduras and Panama, for instance). Oh, but the presidents of these nations became very wealthy at the time, of course, but overall, the poor were crushed and the nation was in worse shape than before we came “to help.â€
(as I was reading this book, I thought about how it was happening again in Iraq today — how US contracting companies are fattening up at the expense of an entire country we are occupying. War is good for business, after all! Google the documentary “Iraq for Sale.”)
This is how we roll, people. The “land of the free and home of the brave.†America is first and foremost a corporation, a business, running solely on the bottom line, and all domestic and foreign policy hinges on this. The US government therefore incapable of caring for the widow and the orphan, because widows and orphans are not good for the bottom line. This is true of all governments, of course, but some are able to throw their weight around a little more than others.
I guess that’s the price of freedom, though.
Matt
That was very thoughtful-and true.
“I am SO glad that our forefathers were not a bunch of “make love not war†wussies like I see so often in our society and frankly on this blog from time to time.”
Mark this as the first time I have ever read of Jesus being called a wussy.
Many, if not most, of the Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ have the American flag and the Christian flag on the platform. In my 60 years with this fellowship I have not known of any congregation doing the Pledge of Allegiance in a service (not to say that it has not happened). In my 40 years of visiting Churches of Christ (a cappella) I have not seen an American flag – or a Christian flag – or a piano – or (gulp) a Cross. The lack of the latter has always puzzled me.
In the Episcopal church, they have the American flag in the front of the church. This is kind of an anachronism; we are far enough removed from the days of the Tories and Revolutionary War that we no longer need to convince onlookers that we have given up our loyalty to Great Britain, where the Episcopal (Anglican) church began. But the tradition has stayed. Oh yeah, we have tons of crosses and crucifixes too.
But I guarantee we would NEVER say the pledge in church. There are lots of things I’ve been thinking when reading through these posts, but I can boil it down to this. There MUST ALWAYS be some kind of tension between being a Christian and being a citizen of any nation. When we lose that tension, we have lost everything.
Go read Christian history, then come back and tell me how proud you are to be an Christian.
Matt — that was excellent. Your words put the Smackdown on those who would maintain that reciting the pledge is “betrayal.”
Go read Christian history, then come back and tell me how proud you are to be an Christian.
Precisely, Clint. But when the institution of which we are a part fails to represent us as followers of Christ, we must seriously consider seceding from said institution, be it the church or nation.
“Let us throw off everything that hinders…”
Steve,
I believe Paul would disagree. He was always a Jew.
If you go and read David Barton’s article, “Republic vs Democracy” (http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=4), you might not think it as strange to recite a pledge that includes the words, “…and to the REPUBLIC, for which it stands…”
Here’s a couple of excerpts from Mr. Barton’s article:
“We have grown accustomed to hearing that we are a democracy; such was never the intent. The form of government entrusted to us by our Founders was a republic, not a democracy.1 Our Founders had an opportunity to establish a democracy in America and chose not to. In fact, the Founders made clear that we were not, and were never to become, a democracy…”
“…A democracy is the rule by majority feeling (what the Founders described as a “mobocracy” 12); a republic is rule by law. If the source of law for a democracy is the popular feeling of the people, then what is the source of law for the American republic? According to Founder Noah Webster:
[O]ur citizens should early understand that the genuine source of correct republican principles is the Bible, particularly the New Testament, or the Christian religion.13″
Clint – What I’m saying is that the hyper-politicized, flashy, building-centered and greed-driven “Christianity” that is often the “face of the faith” in America today does not define me. In the same way, I am in no way complicit (except by living here, maybe) with neither the trajectory and values of the United States empire, nor our insistence on spreading those “values” to the rest of the world (by force or otherwise).
What am I to do? Go along with both institutions blindly?
Certainly, there is a love for church and country and a hope that they will “shape up,” (as I also hope the same for myself) but at what point does such a sharp difference in core values take me in a different direction?
I’m seriously open to suggestions / rebuttals.
“but at what point does such a sharp difference in core values take me in a different direction?â€
Paul was willing to give up his place in heaven for his countrymen. Romans 9:3
Wow. I’m coming to this a few days late, but this is intense. Still, with a few unfortunate exceptions, the group manages to be more than civil and to disagree agreeably. Well done.
My two cents worth is to agree with Mike that this is completely out of place. I don’t say the pledge of allegiance in any context (no, come on, keep reading), but I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong to do so.
But time and place are important here. Sure, we have to be who we are in every aspect of our lives. And yes, we allow for allegiance pledges to spouses in churches during weddings. But even during a wedding, the main focus is on the bride and groom, even if it is understood that God is Lord of their lives. Imagine if at said wedding, the groom paused to pledge allegiance to other women in the audience. Couldn’t it be argued that he has allegiance to many of them as friends or co-workers? But it would still be inappropriate, because he is there to show that his allegiance to his wife trumps his allegiance to all other women. If he were to pledge his allegiance to his mother in the middle of the ceremony, red flags would go off for most people, none more so than the bride. Doesn’t mean he can’t honor his mother on mother’s day, it just means that the time set aside to honor his wife ought to focus on that. The fact that we bring God into a wedding ceremony or the pledge just shows how God trumps spuse and country, even within their own context or on their special day.
But on a day set aside to honor God, pledging allegiance to anything else has the same feeling as a groom pledging allegiance to his mom on his wedding day. It makes you wonder where his allegiance really lies.
Clint – Fair enough, but how was Paul going about this? By lobbying for Christian laws among the Jewish people? To me, Romans 9 says nothing about my need to pledge allegiance to my country or stick it out within a religious system that no longer lives the values of Christ. Like Paul with his fellow Jews, I yearn for my fellow Americans to know Christ and live in his way, but this has always happened outside of legislative action and is happening more and more outside the sanctuaries of our churches. This post is not about church, but the parallels to nationalism seem to be relevant.
One thread. One God. One Christ. Yet we, based on our study, experiences, values, biases, etc., have come to a vast continuum in our beliefs.
I wonder why this is so, and what that says, good and bad, about the body of Christ, the supremacy of Christ, the love of Christ, and the forgiveness of Christ.
Matt, exactly what I was pointing to in my statement above (May 30th, 2007 at 3:34 pm). I know much less about other Christian movements and history, but I’m sure this is a longer running debate than only back to the 1820′s. This is a healthy discussion and worthy of thought.
The pledge of alligence is indeed out of place in the worship service. As is the American flag, which has become commonplace the past 5 yrs.
who says God is on “our” (U.S.A.) side?? from all I can tell, Americans. saying it doesn’t make it so – too many people want to believe that God is on our side. We need to be more concerned about being on God’s side.
KUDOS!
Yarek, 5/30, 12:20 p.m.; Fajita, 5/30, 7:56 p.m.
We are at church to WORSHIP God!! Not our country or our servicemen. It’s not about what makes us feel good – it’s about glorifying God.
One more thing: being Jewish is the religion. It is not a nationality.