A friend of mine told me how perplexed she was that in a Christian assembly where she was visiting last Sunday morning they said the Pledge of Allegiance. I kid you not.
The Christian assembly is the place where we remember that there is only one ultimate allegiance, and it is to Jesus Christ. It is where we remember that any other ultimate allegiance is idolatry.
The early church didn’t pledge allegiance to Rome. They confessed Jesus as Lord — which was a political statement over against the confession that Caesar is Lord.
Aren’t we to be good citizens? Of course — whether we live in Mexico, Chile, Vietnam, Afghanistan, or the United States. No one nation is God’s nation. He is working in visible and (often) hidden ways in all countries.
There are settings where I say the Pledge of Allegiance. I’m thankful to be a citizen of this country; I deeply appreciate the sacrifices that have been made; and I do see my Christian obligation to be a good citizen. (I’ve written before about the need I sometimes feel to tell people that I’m not talking about the deepest allegiance of my life. Countries come and go; but the kingdom of God keeps encroaching!)
But historically, the Christian assembly has NOT been the place where people pledge their allegiance to a flag or a country. It’s not a place where they celebrate patriotism. Rather, it is a place where they remember that Jesus Christ alone is Lord. It is where they remember the words of Jesus: to come follow him, to turn the other cheek, to love enemies, to have only one Master, to serve one another, to go into all the world, etc. The assembly has been a place where we remember our status as “aliens and strangers” in this world whose true citizenship is in heaven.
You can find earlier blogs that are related here . . . and here.
Good topic. And unfortunately, not a common one in christian circles.
The American church lives under the illusion that it is at home in its host culture, and should be. It is neither at home in its host culture, nor should it be.
The gospel sharply critiques rather than accepts the cornerstones of earthly kingdoms, ours included (and maybe especially). A gospel that exalts the poor over the rich and the weak over the strong, and that calls its followers to embrace earthly weakness has little, if anything, to do with kingdoms that inherently trample the poor and place a premium on power.
If we truly take our queues from Christ and the ancient church, we would be a much more marginalized, subversive, and culture-critiquing (and yes, engaging) community. Instead, I fear we have primarily taken our queues from the power-hungry post-Constintinian church for whom church and state were nearly synonymous.
Good topic Mike. Obviously that church took Memorial Day to the extreme. It would have made me feel uncomfortable - not in a good way.
Related: Interesting informal survey here.
I totally agree.
My allegiance is to Christ and His church.
I love my country and I am proud to be an American and I get a little teary eyed as I look at the flag and hear/sing The Star Spangled Banner. But the Pledge of Allegiance has always made me just a little bit uncomfortable. I recite it in school settings with an inward prayer that my total allegiance is to Christ and that I will respect America and its laws and strive to be a good citizen. I have not yet felt compelled to refuse to recite it, but I must confess my heart is not in it.
I see no place for having the Pledge of Allegiance recited in a worship service.
In our service Sunday we prayed for the family of a fallen soldier, a young man who died in Iraq a few days before. We also prayed for our nation, its leaders, and for protection of our troops.
I am proud to recite the pledge of alliegance and for the freedoms we have in this country.
This world is not my home, I am just passing through, but I am thankful to a gracious God to live in a country that will take a stand for freedom, freedom to worship where I please unafraid.
Aren’t we thankful for seperation of church and state? Take prayer out of school and we scream “foul.” Preach that we’re taking the pledge of alliegance out of church and the media would go “postal” on us.
Just a thought!
Amen, Amen to your post today, Mike.
First. I’ll preface what I’m going to write by saying I’m sure, no, I know I’m biased having grown up an “Army brat.â€
I’ve never been in an assembly that asked everyone to recite the “Pledge of Allegiance.†I did notice that one of the categories your post was put in was “Politics.†The “Pledge†is not an act of politics since one need not be a member of any political party to recite one’s allegiance to our country.
At least once a year at our church we honor our Veterans as we did this past Sunday by asking those who have served our Country to stand and be recognized. I think Jesus recognizing the faith of the Roman Centurion demonstrates on some level that he had an appreciation for men of uniform, even the uniform of an occupying Army.
Our assemblies should be about our allegiance as best as flawed faith will allow, to our God. It should be inclusive and not exclusive but I think there are times when Christians (as Jesus did) can honor our men and women in uniform.
As far as the Pledge is concerned it does state that we’re “one country under God.†Although it has changed today in many minds I believe there was a time when pledging allegiance to our flag indicated that we were also pledging allegiance to God. In the true sense of an American being a Christian this allegiance came with the understanding that we would attempt to always do what was right in the eyes of God. If that is what we’re pledging allegiance to then I don’t see anything wrong with saying the Pledge in an assembly. Like anything else that we do when we meet it can become dogma and abused.
As Christians, our allegiance is to God in Christ alone. We are too rely upon God for our sustainment and protection. Christians who live in a land where they are persecuted and have no rights as a human citizen understand this. But we Christians, who live in the US, do not understand this so well. Our Pledge of Allegiance is symptomatic of a larger problem: We rely on the earthly powers of our nation to sustain our way of life and protect us from any threats to that way of life. What is so different about that then Israel’s continuous flip flop between worshiping God and worshiping Baal?
Hooteewho,
The respect you paid to the fallen soldier and prayers for the nations leaders don’t have much to do with what Mike is talking about. He is not saying that Christians should not say the pledge, but that the pledge of anything over God in church is misplaced.
Trey,
It would be interesting to see what would happen if Christian churches started to pull away from the state more… I wonder how far religious freedom would be allowed?
I’ve never heard of reciting the pledge in church. It does seem out of place.
Trey — interesting thoughts!
Looks like we might be in for a lot of comments on this one.
Ugh!!! This is one part about being a grown-up that I just hate. I enjoyed our service or assembly or big church or whatever you want to call it. It was special, to me, to honor those who have served our country and well, to show honor to our country. Growing up in VBS we pledged to the Bible, to the Christian flag, to the US flag, so were we idolators because we were being taught to honor our country? How is singing the Star-Spangled Banner any different than pledging? I really don’t want to debate or anything, I’m not very good at it. It’s just frustrating that there’s always something for someone to pick about and analyze; usually I’m clueless about it. I realize it’s probably good for us to analyze such things in life, but really it’s tiring to try and keep up.
Rome had many gods, our nation was founded on the God of the Bible…So in the pledge we are are pledging our allegance to the God of the Bible “One nation under God”. Once we take God out of even our assemblies America will fall and will be judge by God like those of the old Testament.
We sang “My Country Tis of Thee”, “America the Beautiful” and had a short video about Memorial Day on Sunday. I will be honest that I felt a bit uncomfortable with this and I am a HUGE patriot and proud American. I can’t put my finger on it but it just felt out of place.
Interesting that we will sing of blue skies, mountains, the sun, mansions and many other things of this world but mention America and people raise a fuss.
I attend a pretty large and popular cofC congregation.
I definitely agree. We discussed this a while back on my blog as well. Here’s my pledge:
I pledge allegiance to my God,
All else falls far behind.
No land, no piece of earthly sod,
Can my obedience bind.
May my love for this world and the kingdoms thereof,
Not make me forget what I read in the Word.
My citizenship lies not here but above.
My true loyalty belongs to my Lord.
Grace and peace,
Tim
“Once we take God out of even our assemblies America will fall and will be judge by God like those of the old Testament.”
Does taking the pledge out of church really take God out of the assembly? I would actually think it does the opposite. Take the patriotic stuff out and it allows God to stay in.
cwinwc said: …I think there are times when Christians (as Jesus did) can honor our men and women in uniform.
I’m curious to know what you mean by this.
I think burning the flag should be a part of our new baptismal liturgies.
Idolatry is everywhere, but we tolerate some forms of it more than others…
I guess for most of us there is the understanding that we are pledging our support, not our souls. I suspect that for a church to say the pledge in their assembly they probably don’t see much difference between the Christian and American ways.
One redeeming thought: At least we are pledging ourselves to the IDEAL of a nation that promises liberty and justice to all. Maybe if we say that often enough…
Oh, and joingoist anthems should be removed from out hymnals and PowerPoint databases immediately!
If Jesus were thumbing through one of our song books, I bet he would cry.
There is an important distinction in highlighting the difference between saying the pledge and any other mention of Memorial Day. The main issue, in my mind, is standing before God in a special assembly to acknowledge our devotion to him and saying “we are also pledging ourselves to something other than you.†You cannot serve two masters, you cannot pledge allegiance to everything. One day we will have to choose between our God and our country, everyone will. Then we will find which pledge is just lip service.
Preacherman, America was set up as a business venture for the English. Many of the founders were Deists. Religious freedom is there too, but it is not why America was founded and it is not the basis that America was founded upon. I am not saying that to be anti-American or hateful, but I think your statement is historically inaccurate and creates a false impression of Americas roots.
I remember visiting a baptist church for their VBS as a child. They had an american flag and a christian flag in the audetorium. And we said the pledge each day. It seems so strange to me.
Now I live in a community where we stand for the Star Spangled Banner at every movie. And prayers are often said or at least God is mentioned at promotion ceremonies, “Hail and Farewells” and other community events. It probably would not seem so strange to me now.
Since I believe we are spending all our time presenting our bodies as living sacrifices I no longer have everything neatly seperated in a box. (one for religion, one for work, one for patriatism…etc.) I also no longer feel that only the “five acts of worship” can be done in a church assembly.
But I certainly don’t want anything getting in the way of our focus being on Christ. He is indeed Lord over all. Blessings to you, Kent
Uh oh, Houston … you just blasphemed in your pants.
^
‘
‘
he he
“Rome had many gods, our nation was founded on the God of the Bible…”
If anyone will look closely at the beliefs regarding God held by the founding fathers of our nation (a deistic belief), I think we will see clearly that our nation was not founded upon the God of which Holy Scripture gives witness to.
Mike, I couldn’t agree more.
On a related note, I once visited a fundamentalist church (their self-description) where they recited not only the Pledge of Allegiance, with the U.S. flag to the side of the platform, but also a Pledge to the Bible, with one of the pastors holding up a large black copy. The whole thing struck me as idolatrous.
Excuse me Mike.
Hi Steve.
In my un-scholar like mind, I see Jesus praising the faith of the Roman Centurion in Matthew 8 and even elevating his faith beyond any of his countrymen. If you think about our movement’s heritage (David Lipscomb and the like) for the most part it is one of “pacifism.†So to read about Jesus praising this man in the military is somewhat amazing.
For the Son of God to praise someone who is in uniform and who has no doubt engaged in the art of war tells me that wearing a military uniform isn’t an automatic disqualifier for being a child of God. In fact, Jesus seems to praise the practice of obedience and faith as the Centurion describes his day to day life in the Roman Army.
For us today, I think it is appropriate to honor as Jesus did, the men and women of our churches who serve in the Armed Forces. They may have a special insight into the Christian Faith that we “civilians†are not privy to and that is living a vocation that requires “obedience†and “faith†everyday.
How did I do Steve and once again, good to “meet†you.
I have noticed that on his blog, Mike enjoys the “either/or” choice. If you say the pledge in church you are engaging in idolatry. There is no middle ground. I wouldn’t like to say the pledge in church, as I said, I would feel a bit out of place but I am not going to say, as many do here, that if you do you are putting the USA before God.
I do find it interesting that many here are just fine saying the pledge outside of church but not in the worship assembly. Romans teaches that our entire lives are a worship to God. We never “enter” or “leave” worship. If one supports this position and are opposed to saying the pledge during the worship assembly, shouldn’t they also be opposed to saying it elsewhere?
Just throwing out a few talking points here since I am on the fence myself on the issue.
I’ll stay out of the debate, but it does seem eerily similar to the debate about saying the pledge at ACU opening chapel every year. There’s a group of students there who want to stand and boo at this part of August’s ceremony. One could argue that this disgraces a worship service, but they say the same about the recitation of the pledge and singing the Battle Hymn of the Republic.
So, was this nation founded on belief in the God of the Bible, or the murder/genocide of its original inhabitants?
A poster in a genocide memorial in Rwanda pointed out that over 15,000,000 people were killed to make this great nation possible.
Praise the Lord and pass the smallpox!
cwinwc - You explained yourself very sufficiently. Thank you. And don’t downplay your mind … you’re a scholar in your own right, just by interpreting the text about the centurion.
That said, I disagree with your insenuation that because Jesus is honoring the faith of the centurion, he is glorifying or honoring the profession that participates in war. Could the centurion have fully lived into the way of the Suffering Servant — which is a way of peace and renunciation of earthly kingdoms — while remaining a servant of the Roman Empire (and specifically its army)? My guess is no, especially based on the attitude the earliest Christ-followers toward military service and war. (some even refused communion to those who served in the military)
I do find it interesting that many here are just fine saying the pledge outside of church but not in the worship assembly.
I’ll go on the record as one who doesn’t say the pledge anywhere, anytime.
And the musket!
And the Dr. Pepper…
Man, I’m thirsty.
Nothing like an allegiance discussion to really work up a sweat!
Roland,
Mike said that a Christian’s ultimate allegiance is to Jesus Christ and that other ultimate allegiance is idolatry. That’s not either-or. That’s first-things-first.
Regarding the Pledge in the assembly versus out of the assembly, C.S. Lewis once said that you might pray while you’re brushing your teeth. But that doesn’t mean you should brush your teeth in church.
Correction: I don’t believe Mike said that it was idolatry (and that word is much too loaded anyway) rather (and this is my paraphrase) that it is inappropriate in the church/worship setting.
I have seen this several times. Not the least of which was the Wednesday night that the Golf War II began. This church’s service became a pro-American rally. God’s will and favour were invoked several times. But this is the really troubling part: the church did not ask God to bless the nation’s actions but assumed it to be so. And spent the night declaring it.
I agree with Mike for two reasons. (1) The church is not here to support the state, it is here to support Christ. (2) Mixing patriotism and church seems to be a very dangerous thing, especially this assumption that God will bless the nation’s actions always.
This view that the U.S. was founded by the will of God and continues via the will of God is extremely outdated. Israel has been replaced by America. It seems the nature of the Church and of Christ has been forgotten. It is without borders and is not tied to any location. Rather the body is international and nationality is but a footnote.
So come forward to the twentieth century (then at least you’ll only be one century behind).
These topics amaze me every time Mike drops one of them. It gets everyone’s feathers all ruffled.
I feel the need to shout Amen after saying the pledge because it always serves as a reminder to me that God is the supreme ruler and Lord over all and reminds me what a blessing it is to be living in the country. So I suppose you can make the pledge an ugly Anti-God thing if you want, but I just don’t see it that way.
God bless all of you, America and the world,
Snap
Everyone, take 14 minutes and 21 seconds out of your time refreshing this thread to read the comments and go watch this version of Mark Twain’s The War Prayer.
It is striking how, in light of Canuck’s comment above, our prayers often have an unuttered side to them. Having that pointed out to us might make us a little less cavalier about some of our prayers…
The War Prayer
Frank, but does that mean it’s wrong to brush your teeth in church?
I am probably more conservative politically than many, if not most, who post on this blog, but on this issure I totally agree with Mike. In all of my life in Churches of Christ I never once remember saying the pledge in a church service. I think we got that one right. As much as I have said the pledge with passion and emotion to do so in the context of a worship turns my stomach. My only son left yesterday to report for active duty as an Air Force officer. In about a year if the conflict is still going on there is a good chance he will spend some time in Iraq. I just hope we all continue to pray for our troops. Most are young men like my son, and most receive great comfort knowing that people like all of you are praying for them.
I am more concerned by the fact that most Christians just see Memorial Day as another 3 day weekend and a chance to have some BBQ, maybe a sale or two. It shows how worldly we are.
Frank, here is your quote:
“But historically, the Christian assembly has NOT been the place where people pledge their allegiance to a flag or a country. It’s not a place where they celebrate patriotism. Rather, it is a place where they remember that Jesus Christ alone is Lord.”
I beleive the key word is “rather”.
Not necessarily wrong. Just out of place.
Roland,
Marge did not tell Homer he COULDN’T deep fat fry his shirt, she said he SHOULDN’T.
Interesting little aside….
Is it ok to watch the Simpsons as long as you don’t watch it in church?
After reading Twain’s The War Prayer, how can we pray for our troops?
How can we pray for their safety, knowing that in the current situation, their safekeeping depends on their ability to tear the others to shreds with shells, or to send their women and children out into the street, friendless…
Should we then not pledge allegiance to our spouse in a church? Is that idolizing our spouse or placing our allegiance to someone above God?
I feel that pledging our allegiance to our country is not “serving two masters” or “idolizing” our country.
Honestly, I have never even thought of this before today, and I am surprised that there are people who believe this way.
While it looks like this thread is diving away from its original statement, i.e. that our “Allegiance” is to God, I can’t help but think we’re talking more about form than substance here.
When we say, “I pledge allegiance to the flag,” I doubt any of us have ever meant, “I pledge all of my allegiance to this political entity and all actions thereunder to the exclusion of my God, spouse, family and friends.” Instead, we signify that we pledge our allegiance to this nation of brothers and sisters.
In addition, when we pledge allegiance, no matter where we do it, I can’t help but point out that we say one nation, under God. We don’t say, “we’re the only nation,” but we humble ourselves in that we are not above our Lord.
Now I know that is simplistic, but I think we’ve overanalyzed this point. Besides, it’s not like everything that happens on the church lot is or is supposed to be praise…
I’ve actually watched the Simpsons in church before. We did a Wednesday night study based on it.
Excuse me again Mike and if anyone else wants to “play†feel free.
Hi Steve, me again. I appreciate the “props†(as the kiddos say today) you threw my way. This is an interesting subject for it brings together 2 important and sometimes intertwined concepts; our allegiance to our Country and our allegiance to God. Remember the Pharisees tried to trip up Jesus on this point in Matthew 22.
When I read his response in verse 21 I sense a balance.
We are in the world therefore we have certain obligations to the world and likewise we are part of God’s Kingdom and we have obligations to Him. I don’t see Jesus saying we should encompass one to the exclusion of the other.
I don’t see Jesus “glorifying or honoring the profession that participates in war.†As with any profession, preacher, elder, teacher, or dog catcher there are those who work and live their lives to the Glory of God and there are those who do not. In Matthew 8 I think we find a man who is somehow living his life to the Glory of God while fulfilling his military obligation and that could have included making war.
A Centurion was a “professional soldier†and to get by Jesus’ praise of him by saying he was probably something tantamount to a “Supply (not that there is anything wrong with that) Sergeant is tantamount to saying that Jesus’ first miracle concerning the making of wine was of the non-alcoholic variety.
Hope that helps Steve and thanks Mike for the space.
P.S.
I’ve never been in an assembly that asked folks to recite the Pledge. If I were, I would gladly say it. However, it’s not something that I want to bind on folks or make it an everyday part of our service.
Second - I have had 2 close brothers in Christ who have served in Afghanistan and Iraq. I’m sure this shades my opinion on this subject and I’m willing to admit that.
Cwinwc, good comments. I didn’t see John the Baptist telling the soliders to drop their swords and return home either.
At first when I read that the pledge was included in a worship service that really surprised me! But the more I think about it, that really scares me and saddens me at the same time. And I’m not really surprised.
Well said Matt and Scott!
We can turn anything into something ugly and Anti-God if we try hard enough.
I actually heard an elder at a very conservative CoC once say that having a wedding ceremony inside a church building was offensive because weddings weren’t religious ceremonies, they were civil services because you couldn’t pledge your love to another person and still be a Christian.
PS I no longer visit that church and it didn’t appear he had a very happy fulfilling marriage.
cwinwc - I guess my point is this: I do not see how someone who truly turns to follow the way of turning the other cheek, prayer for enemies, walking extra miles, and giving away of cloaks on top of tunics — an altogether upside-down, counter-cultural way — can remain a professional soldier, a servant of the Roman Empire. We are not given the “rest of the story” regarding the Centurion, but one can piece together a reasonable conclusion based on the overall teachings of Christ and what would have been considered “becoming a disciple.”
Soldiers are not the same as “preachers, elders, teachers, or dog catchers” because their profession requires them to destroy lives and families to be considered successful.
I’m not a history major. But when was this “golden era” when the forefathers worshiped the God of the Old and New Testament? When did this country establish a government, economy, and/or social structure that reflected the God of the Old and New Testament? When you look at a documentary history of America, its a pretty clean retelling. From the perspective of every tribe and race that wasn’t western European, the country’s beginnings were more Machiavellian than just. I feel guilty about being ‘thankful’ about being an American, because it is an economic and political structure that has subjugated so many in achieving preeminence. I am thankful to be here…but should I be?
Mark,
I can’t think of too many countries who haven’t subjugated others in order to expand their political borders or achieve economic interests.
However, if we torture this subject long enough, it’ll confess anything…
Matt,
I think that is why many people have a problem elevating any citizenship to the point of pledging to it. Because the aims of a nation are ultimately different than the kingdom of God.
“I can’t think of too many countries who haven’t subjugated others in order to expand their political borders or achieve economic interests.”
Well heck then… USA! USA! USA!
Well, I don’t know if you own any real estate or not, but if you do; you could donate it — rather give it back — to an American Indian tribe. Perhaps that would ease some of your guilt.
“I feel guilty about being ‘thankful’ about being an American, because it is an economic and political structure that has subjugated so many in achieving preeminence. I am thankful to be here…but should I be?”
Last Sunday (Memorial Day weekend) I was visiting family in a military town. The congregation I visited took an opportunity to honor those serving or who have served in the military, and remembering some 20+ members who are currently away, deployed in Iraq. Aside from those few minutes, and mention of the military members in prayers, the rest of the service was a typical worship service, including a great sermon on the need to be set apart from the world.
I think that balance was about right. If it had been high school graduation Sunday, we would have honored the graduating seniors. If a member or member’s child had won some award, we would have honored them with an announcement. I know some people have a conscientious objection to serving in the military. But if those folks were to spend a year or two as members of a church in a military town, I think it would give them a different perspective.
OTOH, I agree that pledging allegiance to the flag in a worship service is way over the line.
In Shane Claiborne’s book Irresistable Revolution, he mentions the fact that Willow Creek took all of the images of the Cross out of the church in order to be more “seeker friendly” and to remove symbolism that reminds others of pain (which is slightly ironic because of the fact that it was a torture instrument that caused pain in the first place, and Jesus came to change that idea the first time…but I digress.) However, they had a large American flag in the lobby of their building. To me, this does not make any sense.
I am glad I am an American. But, I am FREE because of Jesus not soliders. “It is for freedom that I have been set free.” Praying for leaders of countries, our troops, our enemies’ troops, and our land is “scriptural” and okay. But, I have problems with Pledging Allegiance to the flag in assembly. I am not suggesting that we sing Boltz’s “I Pledge Allegiance to the Lamb” in place (even though I would love to have Assembly Mullet Day and do it.) I am however saying that our God is God over all. I am sad that Memorial Day and the Lord’s Day coordinated because it gives yet another false idea that any progression of Americanism, capitalism, or democracy is somehow what God wants.
God has been God in the middle of tyrannies, monoarchies, Parlaments, dictatorships, and democracies. This nation was a colony of the British government. It was Anglican because it had to be. It burned, pilaged, and cheated its natural inhabitants out of land. It whined to its Mother Country because they were taxing them too much (even though it was a colony…and the job of a colony is to make money for the Mother Country.) Then, in the seeming spirit of this country, they killed the Mother Country’s people. I do not pledge allegiance to that.
I serve a Savior that showed me through example that people are worth dying for but not worth killing for.
Houston,
It’s a point well taken, and one that I certainly can see; however, I don’t think pledging allegiance to a nation “under God,” is wrong, even if that nation has done wrong. While Greg has pointed out that our country has committed grievous genocide in its history, I submit that our nation does a lot of good around the globe, and that good is spurred by those who love God and use our government system to benefit others.
And, because I don’t think it’s wrong to pledge allegiance as I pointed out earlier, I think one can pledge allegiance to a country and maintain the supremacy of Christ in their hearts. I still don’t see how these are mutually exclusive, or why they must be…
When’s the last time we prayed for our “enemies” in church? Our bulletin has a long list of people deployed and serving in the military, but where’s the list of the Iraqis or Afghanis we’re praying for?
Or, could it be that those aren’t necessarily “our” enemies, just enemies of the United States. And, I would be so bold as to say that the two are not the same…
I certainly don’t want to cast America’s history, or its means of achieving ‘empire’ status, as more villainous than other countries. But I can afford to live at a certain level of comfort because of large, pandemic situations we create throughout the world (outsourcing). Does living here make me a complicit party? That’s not a question I’ve found an answer to yet.
I do think it is idolotrous to say that we are ‘free’ because of armies or soldiers. I believe that Jesus Christ mocked every principality and power, revealing them for what they are, on the cross. Give to Caesar what is Caesars, past that point, I wonder what it is I should be proud of. I heard of an elder at a CofC congregation that got in a dispute with some elders for praying for Iraqi’s and Al Qaida in a Sunday morning prayer. Apparently, praying for enemies was a little too leftist.
Greg,
I agree: We should pray for our enemies. It’s a mandate from Christ. However, I consider those who want to kill all Americans my enemy. Oddly enough, I love them anyways.
I pledge allegiance with Roberto.
Mark,
Not to be a lawyer-sounding legalist, but I ask you to define freedom. Freedom has many forms, has many liberties, and, to some, many degrees, declinsions and designations.
Are we free because of Christ? Yes! Have certain freedoms been secured by the blood of others? Yes! Just becuase the English language is too crude to make a fine distinction here does not mean that one doesn’t exist…
Excuse me one last time Mike and thanks again for the stimulating dialogue.
“Soldiers are not the same as “preachers, elders, teachers, or dog catchers†because their profession requires them to destroy lives and families to be considered successful.â€
Steve – I have to respectfully disagree with that statement. I have known a few and thankfully only a few, “preachers, elders, and (I don’t personally know any dog catchers) teachers†who have destroyed lives with their words of hate and legalism. This kind of destruction can last for generations.
Having had a father who was a soldier and good Christian friends who have served our Country in the War on Terror I can assure you that they walk as close to the Lord if not closer than those of us removed from the potential of war. The very fact that you and all of us can have this kind of discussion comes at the fruits of their labor.
As with most subjects that are not “salvation issues†opinions run hard and high, mine not withstanding. If we get back to Mike’s original question or subject, should we say the Pledge in our assemblies, I think that goes back to our belief in church autonomy. I would dare say that the answers to that question will be different at a church on or near a military post than say one, well, you name the place.
Its been stimulating and God bless.
Mark, I don’t want to look like I am picking on you, but your comments keep drawing my attention.
Given what you said below, am I to take it that you would believe it is idolatrous for anyone in Europe to say they owe their freedom from the Nazis to US and British troops? Not that the French would say that nowadays . . . . .
“I do think it is idolotrous to say that we are ‘free’ because of armies or soldiers. I believe that Jesus Christ mocked every principality and power, revealing them for what they are, on the cross.”
Matt Milligan-
I know that I am not Mark, but I will respond to your question.
We are freed to live life to the fullest now with the expectation of something far greater later through Christ. So, we are free now in whatever country we live by Christ. We are free from the laws, from war, and from death. We are free because if our government has laws that are counter-Christian we can live as a Christian because “to live is Christ and to die is gain.” You see we are free.
We have specific rights because of the military. We have the right to bear arms, to drink at 21, to vote at 18, to speak as desired, and to worship anything (just not at school.) I know plenty of “free Americans” who are very much in bondage…
Matt, that’s a good question. I suppose that you could put freedom on a continuum, rather than a point on a ( x / y axis) grid. I have more freedom than a black man born in Menlo Park, CA, (for completely arbitrary reasons; moral luck) in that I have more access to education, material needs and comforts (want to make that distinction), health care, and possibilities of upward mobility [socially, economically]. I am intentional in not including freedom of speech or right to bear arms as essential freedoms because doing so seems to contain the tacit assumption that somehow these rights are exceptional, particular to my context, or more foundational to liberty than the above mentioned items. We live in a country in which the black man in Menlo can say whatever he wants about the government, its policies, and the conditions it creates. But regardless of what he says, how he says it, or the forums in which his proclamation is made, it probably won’t do anything to change the reality that his freedom and my freedom are two very different things. Our policies seem to undergird a vast system of conditions (the status quo) that concretizes that gap.
Robeto–
You pretty much spoke my point: To say, “I am free in Christ, and not from soldiers,” is to be both right and wrong at the same time.
We’re speaking of different liberties here, and that was the basis for my disagreemt with Mark. I’m with you on your take.
I knew this post would have a lot of comments…..
Jim Shelton — your comment is one of the best yet! Anyone out there willing to donate your land to your local Indian tribe? Anyone? Anyone?
Mark,
While I see what you’re saying, I have to disagree with you somewhat. You and the man in Menlo Park have the same “freedom” but not the same “privilege.” At any rate, at least we agree that “freedom” is bulky clothing that more disguises its meaning that shows its form…
Jim, I don’t think your picking on me as your comment is quite gracious and coherent. I’ve thought about how World War II presents the biggest difficulty (though not the only difficulty) in me sustaining a hard pacifist political positions. I heard John Howard Yoder was asked once, in a forum discussion, of whether or not he could validate participation in the Allied Forces (against the Third Reich) as a Christian. To which he responded (rough citing)– “To me, the more fundamental question is, would there have ever been a Third Reich to oppose if the German Church had not given it’s support?”
I haven’t responsibly addressed your question. I suppose I cannot because I do not know what would have happened to Western Europe had Hitler gone unoppossed. One could reasonably make some dark predictions. But I do know that, in our current context, Hiroshima and Nagasaki also foreshadow the dark (and perhaps inevitable) possibilities of what war in the 21st century will become. I apologize for speaking past your question (and it is an important one).
This post today was so encouraging and comes at a time for me personally when I have been so disillusioned by the changes in our religious landscape in this country during the past several years.
I spent the weekend reading Mel White’s Religion Gone Bad which documents the fundamentalist evangelical attempts to break down our barriers between church and state in order to “save our Christian nation”. It was an eye opening account for me.
Like many Americans, I laughed it off when Falwell and others blamed 9/11 on gays, feminists, abortionists and others. We shouldn’t be amused. The willingness that Falwell and others such as Robertson and Dobson have had in working on a grass roots level with those that advocate violence was alarming. And by this I mean physical violence, not just spiritual violence. (And yes, Falwell is dead, but I’m sure another will rise soon to take his place.)
More chilling was the comparisons that are made in the book to the evangelical right’s obsession with gays and their treatment of them to the early persecution of Jews that led to the Holocaust. The evangelical right exhibits many of the same characteristics: contempt for intellectual classes; disregard for science and medical authorities, etc; distribution of false and misleading propaganda; unsubstantiated damage to “families” (the religious right’s own idol worship)and most of all the harm that will be done to innocent children.
The churches of Christ historically have not been known for this brand of patriotic spiritualism, but I fear things are changing. Historically we had more sect-like qualities-our rigid and unwavering beliefs set us apart and did not sustain a culture that allowed us to view America as our own. Unlike most of our Baptist brothers, we have had no American flags planted solidly next to our pulpits. While we are becoming more like our evangelical brothers everyday, we should never change in this regard in my belief.
It is past time for progressive Christians to speak out against those such as Dobson, Robertson and others that advocate physical and spiritual violence and wish to eliminate the barriers between our church and state that still exist (for now at least) in this country. How many of their books are sitting in our church libraries? We should ask ourselves why they are there and if it is appropriate.
Sorry to rant but had to get this off my chest. Was glad to read today’s post and know that at least one other person out there was bothered by the fundamentalist evangelical drive for power and control of our country.
Matt,
I would agree. But I think priviledge and freedom are inextricable and binary possibilities (or restrictions). We both have freedom to pursue an education, but when the priviledge differential is formidable, of what worth is that freedom?
Alex,
Two things I know to be true when considering others:
1. Generalizations are generally too general.
2. Don’t assume you have a monopoly on the truth.
All of this discussion, all of it, comes from our own opinions based upon study, experience, intuition, etc. I get a little nervous when I hear us “bash” those on the right or on the left. I think it does more harm than good, and reveals us as the kind of Christians who don’t accept others very well…generally speaking, of course.
Mark,
Nice point, but that further illuminates the fact that the word “freedom,” is inaccurate to portray what it is we’re talking about here.
You and the man from Menlo have all the basic liberties…however, the extent of your physical enjoyment and pursuit of those is predetermined in some part by privilege. Certainly, most of us hope to give our children a little more “privilege” than we had.
While the Man in Menlo has less privilege, and while that lessens his enjoyment of the certain freedoms or “liberties,” he has them nonetheless, and even in his poverty, those liberties, secured by the blood of those who laid down their lives for us, set him apart from the poor man in Rwanda.
The congregation I’m in now has, for the past few years, usually held brief remembrances of Memorial Day and (especially) Veteran’s Day during services. A group of our members seem to keep God and country tightly intertwined and to them it’s natural to celebrate the country because God is on our side. I wish we didn’t do it because I agree that worship time is for focusing on God alone. But I’m very reluctant to criticize or “gently correct,” because this is where these people are in their relationship with Christ and their devotion seems genuine. I am grateful for God’s slow, patient nudging of me into better and better worship of Him, and so I choose to let God give the same to these people without interference from me!
He has certain liberties because men have laid down their lives. But those liberties are devoid of their necessary possibilities because those men and women who preceded him had their lives taken and subdued by the same instruments and bodies of power. I am where I am in this country (as a middle class anglo) because I am a part of an economic and political power that established itself upon slavery economies of epidemic proportions, and genocide that surpasses the numbers of the holocaust. If the young man from Menlo up and flew to Denmark (with an airplane ticket he can’t afford) he will find himself with equal liberties that, somehow, weren’t sustained and protected with bloodshed. I mention that last item simply because the language patriots enlist continues to suggest that somehow liberty requires violence. How is Vietnam, Desert Storm 1/ or 2, a fight for our freedom?
Every Wed. at chapel my son says the pledge to the American Flag, The Christian Flag and the Bible at Chapel at his school. They quote scripture, sing songs and have a message from the Bible brought to them. They also pray “in Jesus name”. I am suprized that many of you find it disturbing to say “The Pledge” during worship time. Especially, in an era of tolerance. I am sure that the men I know who fought in WWI, WWII, Korea, Viet Nam, Afganistan and Iraq understand that God is first, however, they also understand that you have to be willing to die for what you believe. The God of the Bible uses nations for judgement on this earth, nations are made of people. Unless, I remember incorrectly we are to obey the law of the land. Sometimes that means someone has to pick up a gun and defend those who stay at home and argue the academic side of just war theory. I am pround to be an American. I furthermore love the Lord Jesus with all my heart mind and soul. I would not hesitate to say “The Pledge” in an assembly of God’s people.
My kids went to a Baptist VBS in Jonesboro a couple of summers ago. My wife and I knew some friends there and thought it was going to be a good thing for the kids. We would go have a mini date while the kids were there.
On the last night of the VBS, there was the special presentation.
It was kicked of The Pledge of Allegiance to the United States Flag, followed by the Pledge of Allegiance to the Christian Flag (We got us a flag?) and closed out with the Pledge of Allegiance to the Bible.
That was three strikes and out for me. I was steamed, but contained it for my kids’ sake. My wife didn’t see the harm - that is until I took liberty to learn a little more about teh Christian flag. I may not have the best source (can’t remeber where I found it), but what I found linked the Christian flag to the flag Romans carried in with their military conquests.
If my pledge of allegiance is going to be more than a mere mockery, I reserve it for God. Yes, i wil respect and appreciate what it means to be an American, but pledging allegiance to a nation is betrayal!!!
I can’t even pledge my allegiance to the bible. Why? It’s saying that god is limited to the bible. God is bigger than the Bible.
I feel there is a lot of historical revisionism by some who feel the need to assert that the US is somehow a Christian nation. This was stated perhaps most explicitly in the Treaty of Tripoli, ratified in 1797, which stated in article 11, “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion…” John Adams was president at the time.
Moreover the phrase “under God,” in the pledge of allegiance was only added in 1954, long after its original composition in 1892, which included no such reference. It smacks of Constantinianism. Most of the founding fathers were agnostics or deists who explicitly created a separation of church and state to keep one from influencing the other.
I do feel blessed to live in this country, and I gladly render under to Ceasar every April 15th. But I have issue with the need to define this nation as something it is very explicitly not.
GKB,
I think we can pray for our troops in as much as we pray for the troops on the other side and all the innocent bystanders who are directly impacted by war. To that end, the content of our prayer for “our troops” will be (or at least should be) vastly different, if our prayer for one military is the same for all parties involved in the conflict. The gist of this content is another discussion.
Having said that, I am sympothetic to many in the military. They entered into the military at an early age (generally between 17-19) with naive and impressionable minds. Never before in their life were they ever challenged to think about the ethics of violence and military service, especially for those who are Christians (this is a failure on the part of Christianity). Then with that naive and impresionable mind, they are programed to comply with the ideology of the US Military/Government without question. This includes dehumanizing the enemy. I remember in Army b.t. picking up my weapon and shouting “Shoot to Kill” or “One Shot, One Kill.” No one ever reminded us that these were human beings we were talking about, they were just “the enemy.” It seems a lot easier to inflict violence on a person when you are programed not to think of them as humans, people with families, God’s creation, etc… and instead just see them as “the enemy.” Looking back, it seems that we were unaware of the real enemy at work — the prince of darkness.
“Yes, i wil respect and appreciate what it means to be an American, but pledging allegiance to a nation is betrayal!!!”
Wow. I guess a marriage is betrayal as well. So is a pledge to your family. What is the difference between a pledge to a nation and a pledge to your wife? What about supporting your college or your home baseball team?
I think it all depends on what your “pledge” is. I seem to remember Paul bringing up his Roman Citizenship a few times. He didn’t seem to have an issue with his citizenship. I never saw him denounce it and refuse to enjoy it’s privilages. Many don’t see to mind reaping the rewards from their American citizenship.
I don’t think supporting your country is betrayal. Many of the arguments here are just well constructed straw men.
Hold it! Everybody needs to go home. It seems we’ve been duped! Greg Kendall-Ball has revealed on his blog that Preacher Mike doesn’t even read these comments and some dude named JH, whose IQ is obviously into triple digits, has said the average IQ of the commentators here is upper double digits. So, it looks like we are just the butt of the joke of the more enlightened. I cannot tell you the depth of dispair I feel in knowing my posts are ignored by the blog owner here, but I will overcome this (with prayer and remedial classes). What hurts the most is the knowledge that our intellectual superiors are gathering over in another corner of the blogosphere and snickering at us. What dupes we have been! How stupid for some of us to not have enough collective Anglo-Saxon guilt to develop a self-loathing for the United States of America. I’m going to Venezuela. Hugo has the right ideas.
For all of you double-digit IQs, this was tongue-in-cheek. JH, you can look up “tongue-in-cheek” in an online dictionary.
If you consider GKB to be your superior in any way, I suggest you watch him run naked down a hallway. That’ll pretty much remove all feelings of inferiority…
I’m a very visual person . . . . . you have just ruined my day.
In defense of Mike, I don’t think he reads all the comments here due to the sheer volume of them, not because he feels superior to any of the commenters.
I wasn’t talking about Mike feeling superior . . . . . . . .
How is Vietnam, Desert Storm 1/ or 2, a fight for our freedom?
Because, Mark, if we don’t fight them over there, we’ll end up fighting them over here. (and that would really ruin our nice Bermuda grass lawns!)
I think early Christians would be shocked at this conversation. Granted, our host culture is slightly more tolerant of the church than theirs, but IMHO, this is more a result of the church having adopted the host culture than a host culture that is A-OK with the practices of the church. In other words, if the church acted more like the church, I’m convinced we wouldn’t be as friendly with our host culture.
“In other words, if the church acted more like the church, I’m convinced we wouldn’t be as friendly with our host culture.”
All kidding aside, that is an untestable premise as comparisons of the U.S. to Rome would be speculative at best. Our churches seem in many ways to mirror those found in the New Testament (in their human failings).
Matt,
Is that libel or slander? I can never keep those two straight…
Greg,
The truth is an absolute defense to libel or slander. Libel, technically, is a written slander…
So, if I used the text-to-speech function on my Mac, would it then just be plain slander?
And besides, truth is relative, is it not? Depending on the viewer, the site of my unclothed body might only reinforce inferior feelings.
For the record, I don’t think JH is going to have his feelings hurt by being called an intellectual snob…
And for good reason! Obviously!
“For the record, I don’t think JH is going to have his feelings hurt by being called an intellectual snob…”
Slander or Libel happens at the point of publication. So, if Sara heard it, it’s slander. If she read it, it’s libel. (Basically)
Here, the truth is relative. I’m sure there are some who wished they were more like you. Pretty sure at least.
At any rate, you are African, and that counts for something. I wonder if you keep any rubberized masks of dead presidents for just such occasions?
I believe the rubber masks reside in Southern California these days…
Is it possible to over analyze something? Perhaps some people do not have enough to do.
I agree, get over it!
“Not necessarily wrong. Just out of place.”
Matt Milligan and GKB on the same dorm floor? No wonder HU has never been the same.
DU
Like many in these responses I am bothered by patriotic displays in church services. During the fourth of july weekend following the March invasion of Iraq, my husband and I visited a friend’s CofC in a Texas city near a military base. Many of the members and family and friends of members were fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan at the time. The church service was entirely a patriotic service, we sang patriotic songs, each prayer had a patriotic theme (well beyond praying for troops), and the sermon was about how the American founders were all great Christians. Praising Jesus certainly took a back seat to praising America that day. At the end of the service the preacher had the usual invatation, but it felt out of place because it was the only thing about Jesus. It would have seemed more appropriate to ask people to come forward to give their hearts to America and become citizens of America than to give their hearts to Christ and become citizens of the Kingdom of God. I can’t help wondering if anyone there was an unbeliever and how that service affected their choice to move towards Christ.
I believe you’ll find that Campbell and Stone had a difference of opinion on similar subjects.
Stone: very much in favor of removing ourselves from “other” allegiances to the point of being uninvolved in society and politics at large, and truly being a people set apart.
Campbell: seemingly winning the day with his focus on how we are to be involved in all aspects of society and politics, which will naturally include the swearing allegiance to something other than G-d.
At least this has been my understanding of their stances. Yet, they found it beneficial, to the glory of Christ, to press forward in fulfilling Jesus prayer for unity in John, to labor and worship together. Wonderful and amazing.
If our Nation is a Christian nation then why was there no mention of the Gospel in our Constitution?
…a blog within a blog…
Maybe you have to come from a military family to understand that when your loved ones are away from you and you miss them terribly and you are a Christian. You pray the Lord watches over them many times a day. You know they are fighting so that some spoiled kid back in the good ole USA can spit on them. I so respect our soldiers and their families and it was Memorial Day weekend. As an American we have our culture and our traditions too. Goodness, Jesus was a Jew and kept all the Jewish ways. Seems there are a bunch of people that want to bash anything American. I am not one of them.
Terry,
I don’t believe “so that spoiled kids in the good ole USA can spit on them” was one of the reasons GWB posited for going to war…
Roland, I think we’re missing each other. I didn’t say that making promises was bad or wedding vows, which are clearly made as a covenant before God - even with God.
Pledging allegiance to a nation is quite a different thing.
But I’ll go with your thinking. If my wife comes between me and God, then I choose God by loving her. Yes, I love her no matter what. I do not reject her if she rejects God, but I do not submit to her against God’s will. I do not worship her over the God. In fact, many people language their voews such that God is over all. I am grateful not to be in such a siutation.
A marriage under God is something that can be done. A nation under God is not possible - not anymore anyway.
Plus, the political reality of a pledge to a nation and pledge to a marriage are quite different.
Finally, in marriage I am supposed to reject all others in that form of relationship. I am not called to reject all other nations but my nation. In fact, where a relationship to a spouse is intentionally exclusive, my relationship with people of the world should be inclusive.
Sorry Roland, your comparison just doesn’t work.
By the way, there is much to love about America - and I love those things.
GKB,
I think you just hit below the belt when you insulted the office of the President of the United States. Let’s not turn this into a GWB is an idiot tirade. Besides, us “conservatives” would not have a defensible position.
After all, no matter the quality of the president or the premise of our most-recent conflict, the premise of this post and your take would remain the same. Thus, such a dive into these areas is compound and redundant. That is all.
RCorum: I had no idea Andrew was going into active duty after graduation. He will be in my daily prayers!
hey- i just wrote about pledges a few months ago on my blog:
I think it is incredibly dumb, not to mention a waste of time that children in Texas schools must recite the pledge of allegiance to the Texas state flag each morning. This used to bother me a lot back when I was teaching school. I had not thought about it recently, but the other night on the news I heard there is some effort to add the words “under God” to the Texas pledge. To me, it would make more sense to just do away with the pledge altogether. Granted, it doesn’t waste MUCH time, since it is incredibly short:
“Honor the Texas flag; I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one and indivisible.”
To me, saying this pledge is a complete lie. Allegiance means “loyalty or commitment of a subordinate to a superior or of an individual to a group or cause.” I am not loyal or committed to Texas. I don’t see why Texas needs to single itself out from the entire United Stat