Oprah Moment
Yesterday was the taping with my sister-in-law on the Oprah Show. They had planned to show it in March, but have now decided to show it THIS FRIDAY. Check your local TV station, and tape or TiVo if you’re not home. If you’re in Abilene, it’s at 4:00 on CBS (high def!). For more on the story, you can start here.
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Larry James recently had these stats about immigration in Texas on his blog:
Consider these facts about immigration:
Of 31 million total immigrants, 12 million are undocumented with 1.4 to 1.6 million in Texas (5% of the state’s population)
43% of Dallas area Hispanics are immigrants and only 19% are citizens
Dallas Federal Reserve reports that around 30% of U. S. immigrants are undocumented
DFW International reports that in Dallas almost 1/2 of the “foreign born” residents have no documentation or 10% of the city’s population
50% of these immigrants live in poverty and have no health insurance
Dallas County gained 175,000 Hispanic residents between 2000-2005
Exit polls during last November’s General Election reported that 2/3 of voters listed immigration concerns as “extremely” or “very important” and 50% said undocumented residents should be given a chance to gain legal status, while 1/3 were in favor of deportation
Entering the country without proper documentation is a civil matter, not a misdemeanor or felony
In 2006, approximately 70% of workers sent $24 billion home to Mexico–an annual increase of 25%, representing 2.5% of Mexico’s GDP
Every 10% increase in remittances sent home to Mexico result in a 3.5% reduction in Mexican poverty levels
In Texas, Latin American immigrants contribute $52.8 billion to local economies
Undocumented Texas workers contributed $1.58 billion to state coffers in 2005
If all undocumented Texas workers suddenly disappeared, the gross state product would drop by $17.7 billion in revenues
Jobs follow market needs: a skilled carpenter in Mexico earns $125 per month; the same laborer can earn $2,299 in the U. S. where food costs are also lower
Sixty families in Mexico control 40% of the wealth
Unemployment rates in Dallas-Ft Worth stand at about 5%–the result is a labor shortage
70% of the Dallas construction workforce is immigrant and largely undocumented
Texas Workforce Commission reports that Texas will need almost 125,000 additional restaurant workers and over 35,000 truck drivers
A language other than English is spoken in 43.9% of Dallas homes, as compared to 19.4% nationally
High School graduation rates for Hispanics in the DISD is 32%–graduation rates for undocumented are even lower
Over 2/3 of all DISD students are Hispanic
The City of McKinney spent $138,000 to build a labor center for immigrant day laborers to “catch out” for work in an orderly manner–Plano and Garland also have such centers supported by public funds
Parkland Health and Hospital System, the public hospital in Dallas County, wrote off $7.6 million in unpaid medical bills from patients residing in adjoining Collin County which has no public hospital
(D Magazine, “Mexican Invasion,” by Rod Davis, February 2007, pages 42ff)
What will the church’s response be? Try to turn our world into a gated community where others are accused and rejected? Or seek to welcome and love?
Friends – I will continue to have several links in my blog about “Touch-a-Life Ministries” for the next couple days. As this story continues to get lots of public exposure (through newspapers across the country and now on Oprah), several people are winding up here after a doing a search for “touch a life” on Google. And I want to make it easy for them to find the website. So many people really care about suffering children of the world, but just feel immobilized by the size of the problem. I think this story is touching so many because they realize that one woman, a former hair dresser from a small town in Missouri, having lost her son, is now on a mission to save some of the suffering kids of the world.
Enforcing the law is not an option in regards to illegal immigration?
JM,
Of course it is an option… just not always the most Christian of options. Just as passing (or lobbying for) stricter and harsher laws is not necessarily the Christian option.
Bad laws can make people “criminals” when all they seek is life. By the way, entering the country without documentation is a civil matter–not even a misdemeanor. We need to change the way we treat our southern border and be honest enough to admit how much we need the labor from the south. Free trade agreements have reached now reached one of their inevitable results: free and unstrained flow of labor.
One last point, it is bad theology to focus always and first on law. People, life, suffering and justice always trump law.
The problem has to be solved in Mexico and Central America first. If it is not, we will continue to have this result.
The statistics focus on the differnce in wages in Mexico versus Texas. I would be curious to see what impact (if any) immigration has on wages in Texas and the U.S. Does this drive down the wages of others, therefore contributing to more poverty for both illegal aliens and U.S. citizens, thus impacting even more people?
Finally, there is a great article in Texas Monthly this month on immigrants in Houston and the gang problems being created as a result. Scary stuff, all less than one mile from the Galleria. I hope we are doing something about this to try and impact these lives of people who have little hope.
I agree that the a reason that immigration is such a problem is because of the overwhelming amounts of poverty in Mexico and other Latin American countries. Being a Latino, I do not fail to recognize this and in my many conversations with Mexican Nationals who live in places like Mexico City, they all feel the same way.
However, something to consider is whether or not America is the one who perpetuates these kinds of problems by out-sourcing of cheap labour. I know that when large complanies close their plants on the U.S. side, and move them 50 miles across the border… Someone who is getting a job at the new Mexican plant making less than enough money to feed his family, will finally wake up and realize, “Hey, I could go 50 miles across the border and earn enough to feed my family. If nothing else, I’d be doing light years better than what we have been.”
So, yes. I believe that Mexico and Central Americans have many economic problems… but we are not without blame if we are not doing anything to help them develop.
In Ezekiel 34, God chides the shepherds of his sheep for fattening certain sheep and feeding off them, while leaving the other helpless sheep to die because they are no good. When I see this image, I think of our country and Mexico sometimes.
Here’s a question: Why is America not doing something like we did with Western European Countries after WWII ended to help them redevelop? Why are we not initiating some sort of Marshall Plan to help our neighbor redevelop? After all, today we find ourselves benefitting off of the trade and developed economies of those that we helped in the martial plan… so why aren’t we doing the same sort of thing now?
Just some thoughts from a Latino who doesn’t think that we should just let everyone in, but at the same time believes that we shouldn’t deny their immigration if we aren’t intending to do anything about the problems in Mexico.
This whole Oprah thing just fires me up! I am so excited for Touch A Life Ministries to be showcased on such a world stage. Praise God! I can’t wait to see the show.
It is easy to be overwhelmed by statistics like the ones you posted. And, honestly it does overwhelm me. That’s why we need to see people like Larry James and Pam Cope model how to just jump in there and make a difference.
The fact is, we WASPs pick and choose which “laws” we want enforced. Big shocker here: The ones we usually choose are the ones we think don’t indict ourselves. Immigration is an example of this. I’m afraid race and misconceptions about the motivations and plight of immigrants drive our “law enforcement” more than we care to admit.
I agree with Larry on the issue of law; I’m done putting the laws of a selfish empire above my obligations as a follower of Jesus.
Mike, you throw yet another straw man out there. Let’s focus on the word ILLEGAL! You know, I bet a lot of car jackers, bank robbers and other criminals are nice people too but are we a country of laws or not? Do we punish those who break the law or not?
I am ALL about LEGAL immigration. LEGAL. My Grandparents are immigrants. LEGAL immigrants. Doesn’t the Bible talk about being subject to the laws of your country?
Mike, it is not black and white, as much as you and folks like Larry want to make it. You make it sound I either need to love illegals or reject them. I can still love the illegal but demand that he follow the laws of the land.
All I ask if that you and Larry answer one simple question…are we or are we not a country of laws?
I don’t think Jesus was nearly as deontological as most conservatives would like. So many laws were broken by Christ, as opposed to created. I believe the law he did emphasize was one of compassion.
So, are we a nation of laws – yes. Are we a Christian nation? No such thing… So, my allegiance is going to be to the kingdom over the country.
I’ll be anxiously waiting for Larry to answer this one!
Other Mike, if that is the case, does your church have locks on the doors? Do you lock your car? Where do you live?
See, it’s not either or. I can be compassionate AND and want the laws enforced.
Based on your post, why do we even have prisons or jails?
I believe that there is alot we can do within the law. Encouraging people to come into this country illegally has turned the criminal justice system on it’s ear. As someone with ties to local law enforcement, it looks very different from this side.
Encouraging people to come here illegally and then expecting that they will act legally from that point is a riduculous assumption.
Laws are for our benefit. It’s not unlawful or unChristian to require that people follow the rules that benefit society’s health.
Yes, the statistics quoted are upsetting, but it’s also upsetting to realize the high percentage of crime that is occuring in our country is a direct result of allowing people to come here unlawfully and expecting them to behave lawfully later.
If the churches around this country really want to help. They will stand together encouraging lawful behavior. Band together and help people jump through all the hoops to become legal. If the problem is money, help them out financially. This isn’t simply a matter of spiritual grace which some would like for us to think. Many of our churches have the financial means to help many of these families do what is legally required of them. But it seems that instead many of our churches prefer to help them do what is illegal. What is that truly teaching? Buck the system when it benefits you? If the law doesn’t suit you, break the law?
It’s easy to twist the words of Christ to backup your beliefs. Many of the right have done it for years. But it is also becoming quite popular for the left leaning Christians to use Christ’s example and words to back up their claim that living by the laws of the land is optional.
It’s like taking your children and teaching them that house rules are optional if they don’t like them. Sneak around if you don’t like the rules and as long as you aren’t found out, it’s ok.
Rules are there to help keep us all safe. Why teach a segment of poor, needy people that breaking the rules brings about what they need.
That seems very UNChristian like to me.
As the church we MUST focus on reaching out to the Hispanic population. Not should but must. I often wonder if God got tired of waiting on us to take the Gospel south of the border to them, so He brought them to us!
Just a thought!
For some, this is really a question of “the most good for the most people,” which is a perfectly reasonable, perfectly ethical, and perfectly christian criteria for decision making. Laws in our country, generally speaking, are passed with this in mind. If your ethical criteria are based more on the inherent “rightness” or “wrongness” of an action, then you can take and defend a position like Mike’s. Not helping people who need help is wrong. No matter what the future consequences, that action (inaction) is wrong, because God said it was wrong. This is also a defensible postion. But these are the same people who would hand you over to the nazis, if the nazis came knocking on their door asking if they had a Jew inside. Lying is wrong. God says so. So I’ll trust that God will work out the future, and do the right thing by telling the truth.
K, great points there. Excellent. I really liked:
“Encouraging people to come here illegally and then expecting that they will act legally from that point is a riduculous assumption.”
and
“Why teach a segment of poor, needy people that breaking the rules brings about what they need.”
Trey, I agree. Our church has a Hispanic ministry that is excellent and truly reaching out to the lost.
Good thought, but still doesn’t justify encouraging people to act illegally.
With this mentality of “follow the law if it benefits you” no wonder we have several generations of kids who refuse to follow rules in schools, homes and societies. That is a direct reflection on parents and the church. Encouraging illegal behavior from immigrants is a reflection on our nation but more importantly the church. And that means us. All of us.
Can we really teach people that following God’s law is an extension of loving Him and wanting to do what is right when we turn right around and teach people that following the laws of a land that we care about, live in and support is not important?
Or perhaps that’s the whole issue here.
Perhaps the whole issue is that we don’t respect God enough to follow his laws.
OR
We don’t respect this country enough to act in a law abiding way.
Perhaps the church likes tweaking things a bit to suit our emotions or physical needs. Hmmmm…..
I think we need to focus on both side of this. It is just as ridiculous to encourage some one to break laws to come here as it is to not help them if they already have.
Christ didn’t only help those who were helping themselves, nor did he only help those who were a part of his own community.
I’m glad you brought this up, I’ll be needing to see what I can do to help.
I don’t hear Mike or Larry sending out a plea for “mass law breaking.” Perhaps our responses should focus more on how to change the law so that life is upheld and not on enforcing law that is not in line with Kingdom living, or working by the way. Obviously I do not have concrete solutions, but I do think we are each responsible for our little corner of the planet and how we interact and live among others can be profoundly impactful. Wouldn’t it just be nice if the intolerant, accusatory, prejudiced conversations on this issue, were never held by Christ followers. At the very least.
I have said this before, and I will say it again. This is a bigger issue than statistics that make conservative white Texans uncomfortable. It is the spring board to begin asking questions about how we see ourselves in a global community. This discussion really touches my heart and I blogged about in May last year. I have copied some of that post below:
“…But before anyone is offended, let me just explain that we have lived in the US for 15 years total,
6 of those on “student visas” 4 on “religious worker” visas and the last 5 as “green card holders” – never illegal! And, paying taxes the whole time (except when we did not earn enough as student employees).
I have tried to contain myself during the last month or so as people battle out the issues and implications over immigration. I have a lot to say, but would like to maintain my friends so I am not saying it all, but this is crucial.
1. When we become global citizens, we see that people are just like us. Kids in Lithuania watch MTV and post on MySpace. Moms in Jordan order Pizza on nights they are too tired to cook. Families in South Africa, New Zealand, Greece – picnic in the park and enjoy days on the beach. Mothers and Fathers in Sudan, Paraguay, India, Rwanda cry the same tears when their children are taken in death. When you see people and realize they are just like you, you are more likely to care about their plight and want to do something to change it!
2. When talking about the current issues of limited borders etc, remember that regardless of your take on people flow across the world, no human being is ever illegal or illegitimate. Their status may be in question but their humanity is not!”
No one said illegals weren’t human. But they are ILLEGAL. No one is saying DO NOT HELP THE HISPANIC NEEDY. And if you’ll read my previous posts, I did not say do not help those here. I said HELP THEM DO THIS LEGALLY.
Out of respect for God and the land in which we live, we should do everything we can to encourage LEGAL behavior.
Do some in the church really think that encouraging illegal behavior is raising the banner of Christ?
If we can send help to other countries, do it. If you can be a missionary and give your life to that cause do. But that doesn’t change the fact that people are coming into this country and residing here illegally. It does however illustrate that a land governed by law is prefered by a majority of the world’s people. People are trying to get in there, not get out of here.
And while your point listed as #1 is factual it still is not reason to encourage people into illegal behavior. And while no one can illegally be a human being they can behave in illegal ways that affect society in ways that are neither safe or healthy.
It’s so frustrating to me when people assume that because you want folks in this country to do what’s right LEGALLY that you are calling someone inhuman.
God himself established that there is a reason for law. He knew that without it, we’d all kill each other and it would be a society full of people with a “what benefits me is the rule” mentality. God knew this from the beginning of time. For the love….he even gave Adam and Eve rules FROM THE BEGINNING. Laws keep us focused on doing what is right for individuals and for society. Respect for the law doesn’t draw us further away from God, it brings us closer to knowing how much He loves us! We respect law because we are so eternally grateful to him for what He has given us!
Has the church really fallen to the point that it doesn’t see that the author of law is God himself?
Arlene, have you thought of what would happen if we suddenly became one north american country and had open borders? The very life that so many seek would be gone.
When do we stop? Do we just throw a plea out to the world and everybody can come here to the US and live? See my point? There has to be laws/rules/whatever.
Let me ask you, does your church have locks on the doors?
Would you all really side with Eve and say, “But she might have been hungry and couldn’t make it to another tree. That rule about not eating from this tree seems a bit inhumane and extreme. Give her a break, that piece of fruit was looked way better than what she was used to eating. She was just trying to better herself.” Come on church, God gave us laws so that we might be freed to live a life to abundance. Following law out of love is the best way to live. Or so it has been my experience and the way I intend to continue raising my children. Teaching someone to snatch from the tree illegally WHATEVER THE REASON is not following God!
This conversation makes me sad.
For those of you that are so vehemently anti illegal aliens…
If the law said “you can’t go to church and worship God” would you still do it?
I hope the answer is yes.
What causes me grief is I here all these things about “We don’t need to support illegal immigration.” and “I am all for LEGAL immigration”.
Well why the heck don’t we just make legal immigration easier? It costs LOTS of money that these poor people who just want to feed their families can’t afford, it requires a test that most home grown white anglo saxon americans couldn’t pass, and its limited to a certain number of people per year.
If you really do love needy hispanic people, why not call on our lawmakers to make legal immigration easier? Charge them a fee that they can afford, make sure they are tested for small pox and stuff, and let em in.
Could it be because there’s something deeper than just the illegal part?
Trey – Maybe God’s bringing them here to minister to us…
Justin, please answer these questions:
1. Does your church or home have locks on them? If so, why?
2. Does the person who was drunk and killed 2 other drivers deserve to be punished for his crime?
3. If I am trying make a better life for myself, is it ok if I cheat on my taxes? Should I face the consequences if I a caught?
4. Does the Bible not teach us to obey the laws of the land?
5. What happens if we throw our borders open and let anyone at anytime in?
See Justin, you just threw a stawman up there with your “If church is outlawed” scenerio. Also, your little play of the race card if sad. So, K and I actually have deep resentment against hispanics? This is just the same thing I have seen SO much: If you are against illegal immigration you must hate hispanics.
“the author of law is God himself”
So there is no such thing as an unjust law? And unjust laws must be followed just because they’re the law?
I think 6 million Jews (who wer killed in perfect accordance with the law in Germany at the time) would have something to say about that. So would millions of African Americans who lived in the pre-1960s South, where the law required their oppression. So would Jesus, who broke the law (and Old Testament, Biblical law at that) multiple times.
Nor is it in any way legitimate to equate ANY illegal action (for example, stealing) with every other illegal action (for example, civil disobedience) like several people here have done. Surely, we’re not that simple-minded.
Moreover, it’s highly offensive to label anyone as an “illegal” as if that were what defines them. If you have ever broken the speed limit, by definition you’re yourself an “illegal” and I don’t think you’d find it fair if the term is slapped on you as a label simply because you needed to be at your job on time (because you’d lose your job if you weren’t and you need the job if you wanted to feed your family… just like many undocumented immigrants). So it might be advisable to tone down the xenophobic name-calling.
That being said, I am myself a legal immigrant, and I do think the law ought to be respected. But that point can be made without resorting to oversimplifications about the law and God’s will, and without resorting to what amounts to racial slurs.
Firstly, Roland and K – please do not read my comment above as in some way judgemental of positions different to my own. I mean no personal affront by it. I am wrestling with this. Tormented by it actually. I am just being more and more convicted that God’s heart for us is to live with justice, mercy and humility. I think that starts in the community of faith – we are spiritually formed into the image of Christ and our heart beat becomes one with his and I see his ministry being that directed so heavily to the outcast.
Let me restate, I am not calling for lawlessness. Neither do I believe that policies on immigration are null and void and need to be thrown out. My heart is about changing policy so that it faces reality and seeks to uphold the people caught in its snare. I also said previously that I do not have concrete solutions…BUT – I do not think that the old rhetoric works anymore in a global community.
We kid ourselves if we think that the entire planet is going to storm this country to live here – there are plenty of great places to live. Yes, those trapped in countries where corruption and poverty overwhelm see something here and risk it all to partake. In my home of South Africa, refugees and illegal immigrants flood in from all parts of Africa. I am not blind to the risks, the costs, the challenges.
But being a Mom I keep wondering what would I do if I could try to get across a border to make a better life for my kids. Everytime I come up knowing that I would probably try to do it….
Part of me is being changed by being in a church that chose not to flee the downtown but to stay in it and try to minister to the neighborhood. Everything has become so much more complicated for me because as I see people transformed by the love of Jesus my pat answers don’t work anymore. Just as I get a glimpse into the cycle and culture of poverty as well as the issues we are discussing today I am perplexed by the complexity.
Yes, we have locks on the doors of the church building.
Steve Jr. – Excellent thought
“I think we need to focus on both side of this. It is just as ridiculous to encourage some one to break laws to come here as it is to not help them if they already have.”
This is probably one of the very best comments today, imho.
I lived in Mexico 30 years. Part of that culture, for centuries has been to avoid following the law as much as possible. Whenever I welcomed visitors I always repeated, “remember, all laws here [Mexico] are open to personal interpretation – with one major exception. Murphy’s Law is enforced without exception.”
Coming across our borders illegally, working illegally, acting illegally – in short, ignoring the laws of this land is culturally acceptable to the majority of those entering without papers from Mexico
BTW-the gospel has been preached all over Mexico. This is one example of Gods law overriding man’s. It is illegal in Mexico to teach any other church than the Catholic church since it is considered part of the nation’s cultural fabric. It is illegal for ANY foreigner or naturalized citizen to teach religious subjects to a native-born Mexican citizen. Yet, biblical translators are highly respected, teams of missionaries come into the country, schools for preachers can be found in most major cities, evangelical and CofC churches are all over the country – the gospel is being preached and taught, in spite of the law.
BUT, are we teaching, preaching to those already in this country illegally what Jesus said? “Seek first the Kingdom of God and all these will be added to you.”
So back to the first paragraph here,
“… It is just as ridiculous to encourage some one to break laws to come here as it is to not help them if they already have.”
Let us get back to being the Christ-teaching, God-depending, charitable, law abiding people God wants us to be and trust Him to give us the means to do it all.
This conversation makes me sad as well Justin.
What makes me sad is that I’ve posted an argument that I feel is somewhat worthwhile in the beginning, but yet it seems to be overlooked by everyone who is all for living inside the law.
And I agree with Larry on the matters of law,
“One last point, it is bad theology to focus always and first on law. People, life, suffering and justice always trump law.”
I live close to the Tx Boarder. We have illegal immagrants being smugggled through our county. Boarder Patrol is doing all they can. Recently one of deputies was doing his job and got sentenced to jail for stoping a smuggler. You can read more about this at:
http://www.freegilmer.com
I believe Christians should uphold the law. Yes if they enter our country sick take care of them…Then send them back. If they are thirsty give them a drink…Then send them back…If they need food…Feed them then send them back. Up hold the law. It is the criminals who are getting set free and the ones who do their jobs who are getting punished. Crazy. Reverse justice of the Isrealites and what happened to them?
An illegal was in the alley behind my house. He was sick needed medical attention so I called boarder patrol and they came and picked him up. Who knows if he was wanted for murder, rape, theift? Running from the law for some reason? There is no way to tell with these illegals.
Matt, Larry does nothing but throw strawmen up. The whole notion or needing their labor has been proven wrong by many economists. Second, again, NO one is saying we should ignore suffering and the like. No one. However, once again I ask, does Larry lock the church doors? Why? Don’t people who would break in deseve compassion?
According to Larry, we should overlook lawlessness. We should not have consequences for those who break laws. Why in Heaven’s name do we even have prisons?
It’s the same old thing: You can’t be a Christian and support consequences for ones actions. That is just nonsense.
Arlene, great points.
Preachman, I have followed the stories of the different agents who are going to jail for doing their jobs. Very sad. Great points.
That is totally amazing. I have no idea what public policy should be on this issue. But I do know we must love our neighbors.
Roland…
I’m not in charge of locking the doors at the church, so I can’t speak from an educated position on the subject.
The issue here is what you put first. The law of Christ or the law of man. It is my entire point. I will lock my house to prevent someone from coming in without my knowledge, but if they break in… I’m gonna sit down with them and ask them what they need. I’m not gonna chase them with a shotgun or pummel their ass with a baseball bat.
We are not called to be defenders of the law of our land. We are called to defend the defenseless… to love scandalously, so when the law of my land is unjust. When the law of the land breaks the spirit of Christ, then I will follow Christ. And it is embarrassing to read otherwise from fellow christians.
Roland, take time to read the D Magazine article. It will answer your question about laws. We are a people of Law, it is just our national laws don’t come down from Mt. Sinai, but from Capitol Hill. We need to change the immigration laws to reflect our reality and the manner in which we hypocritically exploit cheap Mexican labor for our own financial benefit, while also responding with hatred and malice to those who come to fill the positions we offer. Can’t have it both ways. We should adopt the President’s plan on immigration reform while also working with the Mexican government to bring about economic development south of the border.
Preacherman, the very fact that you use the phrase “these illegals” demonstrates your failure to be a neighbor. You have reduced such people to their status as undocumented and named them as “these”. You have made them the other. God will never do that, and his church must follow suit.
Many claim that they oppose a certain immigration policy, but their words betray that they are anti-immigrant. Overt or tacit, xenophobia drives many of those in the USA who favor restrictive immigration policy. That xenophobia is a heart issue, and the church has a pressing duty to address its influence on believers.
Hiding behind the honorable banner of “the law” while detesting “the other” smacks of the Corban abuses that Jesus prophesied against. The church needs such prophets today.
Larry, I hate the fact that, as you rightly point out, we exploit cheap mexican labor. That is wrong. Employers should be held accountable. I agree with that all the way. My issue is that, without laws, without enforcing laws, we live in anarchy. We can be compassionate and still enforce laws. It is not an either/or equation.
Justin, I see you like going to extremes. I don’t think anyone here said anything about beating someone up nor has anyone said anything about not being Christ like. Please stop trying to create issues that are not here or by trying to insinuate racism by things such as “Could it be because there’s something deeper than just the illegal part?”
Justin,
If you had a wife and kids, you wouldn’t sit down with the person who broke into your house (unless you had no regard for the safety of your family).
We all have locks on our doors for the same reason our nation has immigration laws — to keep out those who would harm us.
What is sad is that some of us can’t hold the view that immigration laws should be respected and enforced without being called bigots on this blog.
“We all have locks on our doors for the same reason our nation has immigration laws — to keep out those who would harm us.”
This will not be an attack on the anti or pro-illegals, or whatever you want to call it, just a request to look at how God has moved for the past 2,000 years.
1. Take a class called ‘Perspectives on the World Christian Movement.” It is incredible and life changing. The session on seeing God move through history is the one to which I’ll refer.
2. Throughout history, if God’s people haven’t shared the message of Christ with others, God has used “invasions” to bring people who need to the Lord to those that know about him. Example, the barbarians to Rome, the vikings to western europe. And each time, even though some of the the initial invasions were violent (much more so than anything we experience today), these people were introduced to Christ and their cultures accepted Christ. And, all of us on here who are of Euro. descent came from groups or tribes like these who originally invaded someone else.
3. So no matter if we “lock or doors” or not, God is going to spred His message. Sometimes it’s painful. But you know what, it’s not about us or or our comfort. It’s all about Him.
4. And please don’t think I think the modern hispanic culture is anything like those barbarian tribes or vikings. I personally don’t, and am really glad they are here however they got here. I’m merely equating their migration to our country to those invasions.
“We all have locks on our doors for the same reason our nation has immigration laws — to keep out those who would harm us.”
Nonsense. We have terrorist watch lists to try to keep out those who would harm us. Safety is a concern in border patrol, but is definitely not the primary concern in immigration law.
Immigration laws are much more about quotas of who we want based on who will benefit our economy the most. That is why we are happy to allow the highly educated to emigrate in a massive brain drain from the developing world but often opposed to a flow of poor people (at least officially). In reality, the need for poor labor has led to a relaxation in the enforcement of laws on illegal immigration from south of the border. I think many of us agree that laws should be followed in most cases (I haven’t heard anyone advocate anarchy) but are in disagreement over whether laws that deserve to be changed in the interest of justice should be followed in the meantime.
Also, there is a gap between laws as they are in the books, laws as they are enforced, and what people do. A poster mentioned that non-Catholic Christianity is officially illegal in Mexico (I’m assuming that’s right without researching it). However, if that law is never enforced, can it really be considered a law? There is a difference between the law as it is written in the books and the ‘effective’ law. Should I, as a law-abiding citizen, follow the speed limit of 70? Or should I follow the effective speed limit of 73-5 under which people are rarely pulled over? And if I’m a doctor should I still treat and love the people who come to me after being in an accident going 80?
Jeff W,
I love all people, including you brother. I include illegals to be my neighbors. I love them. I read God word which tells me to uphold the law. If they are entering our country illegally they are illegals. 1 Peter 2:13-17 says “Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the ssupreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover up for evil; live as servants of God. Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the King. ” I being holy is striving to submit to the laws of the land.
“I AM the Law”- Judge Dredd
Didn’t Hell Boy say something similar, GKB?
Hell Boy would not put up with no illegals infringin’ on his turf, that’s for sure …
The people I attend church with are Brazilian immigrants. We don’t check immigration status before baptizing…or after either.
We miss the good old days of the SS St. Louis, don’t we? These Jewish refugees were refused entrance because it is OUR country they weren’t legal. So we sent them back to Europe where they were promptly killed by the Nazis.
If people don’t come to this land like our ancestors came to this land they don’t belong.
But, wait a minute. Didn’t someone already occupy this country when “we” arrived from Europe? Didn’t we steal their land? Does that make us all illegal immigrants? Let’s ask some Native Americans.
While living in an apartment building in a large city, my neighbors were Hispanic. Not here legally. Hid when ever law enforcement came around. No green cards. No English. My experience with them was not good. They brought in large truck loads of people and at one point, I’m estimating at least 20 people were living in a 2 bedroom apartment. Their electricity was turned off mulitple times. But they did manage to scape together enough money to keep themselves supplied with beer. We had to call law enforcement one night to help one of the women in the apartment who was being physically beaten and we could hear it through our bedroom wall. But like many abused women, she wouldn’t leave.
She had a small baby. She asked if we could help them with their electricty because she had no where to keep milk cold for the baby. We were struggling financially as well. We didn’t have money to spare. So my husband ran an electrical cord between the two apartments so that she could have a light and the refrigerator running. We woke up to a notice on our door that said that if we didn’t remove the extension cord, our electricty would be turned off too because it was a fire hazard to the whole apartment complex.
So we were in a mess. Did we leave the cord up and then have all our electricity cut off. Or take the cord down. If we kept the cord running to her apartment and they cut off the electricity, we couldn’t help her at all keep the milk cold. We had to do what was legal. We took the cord down, gave her a couple flash lights and gave her a cooler and ice. She wouldn’t even come inside our apartment. She was too afraid.
So this woman was being beaten up by her illegal husband and the rest of the 20 or so people in there. She was taking care of a baby in an apartment where the couldn’t afford electricity but could afford beer.
We helped her all we could. We offered whatever help we could afford, which wasn’t much. I bought baby diapers, little onsies, whatever I could and left them at her door. I didn’t turn my back on her because she was illegal. I helped in the way I could. I also left her immigration material from our church which was written in Spanish.
I don’t know what became of her. She wouldn’t come out of the apartment much for me to try and communicate with her.
No one on this blog discussion is saying turn your back on HUMANS here illegally. But God’s way is to respect law. And as followers of Him, we are to teach others the same thing.
It’s sad when a group of Christians can’t discuss something as critical as this topic without it getting ugly and petty and go to extremes.
This basically comes down to whether or not you respect God and his ways. Help where you can and strive to show them that upholding the law allows for freedom.
I interrupt this important (and sometimes heated) discussion to mention Godwin’s law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin’s_law
Looks like Hellboy beats Judge Dredd in a landslide…