Oprah Moment
Yesterday was the taping with my sister-in-law on the Oprah Show. They had planned to show it in March, but have now decided to show it THIS FRIDAY. Check your local TV station, and tape or TiVo if you’re not home. If you’re in Abilene, it’s at 4:00 on CBS (high def!). For more on the story, you can start here.
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Larry James recently had these stats about immigration in Texas on his blog:
Consider these facts about immigration:
Of 31 million total immigrants, 12 million are undocumented with 1.4 to 1.6 million in Texas (5% of the state’s population)
43% of Dallas area Hispanics are immigrants and only 19% are citizens
Dallas Federal Reserve reports that around 30% of U. S. immigrants are undocumented
DFW International reports that in Dallas almost 1/2 of the “foreign born” residents have no documentation or 10% of the city’s population
50% of these immigrants live in poverty and have no health insurance
Dallas County gained 175,000 Hispanic residents between 2000-2005
Exit polls during last November’s General Election reported that 2/3 of voters listed immigration concerns as “extremely” or “very important” and 50% said undocumented residents should be given a chance to gain legal status, while 1/3 were in favor of deportation
Entering the country without proper documentation is a civil matter, not a misdemeanor or felony
In 2006, approximately 70% of workers sent $24 billion home to Mexico–an annual increase of 25%, representing 2.5% of Mexico’s GDP
Every 10% increase in remittances sent home to Mexico result in a 3.5% reduction in Mexican poverty levels
In Texas, Latin American immigrants contribute $52.8 billion to local economies
Undocumented Texas workers contributed $1.58 billion to state coffers in 2005
If all undocumented Texas workers suddenly disappeared, the gross state product would drop by $17.7 billion in revenues
Jobs follow market needs: a skilled carpenter in Mexico earns $125 per month; the same laborer can earn $2,299 in the U. S. where food costs are also lower
Sixty families in Mexico control 40% of the wealth
Unemployment rates in Dallas-Ft Worth stand at about 5%–the result is a labor shortage
70% of the Dallas construction workforce is immigrant and largely undocumented
Texas Workforce Commission reports that Texas will need almost 125,000 additional restaurant workers and over 35,000 truck drivers
A language other than English is spoken in 43.9% of Dallas homes, as compared to 19.4% nationally
High School graduation rates for Hispanics in the DISD is 32%–graduation rates for undocumented are even lower
Over 2/3 of all DISD students are Hispanic
The City of McKinney spent $138,000 to build a labor center for immigrant day laborers to “catch out” for work in an orderly manner–Plano and Garland also have such centers supported by public funds
Parkland Health and Hospital System, the public hospital in Dallas County, wrote off $7.6 million in unpaid medical bills from patients residing in adjoining Collin County which has no public hospital
(D Magazine, “Mexican Invasion,” by Rod Davis, February 2007, pages 42ff)
What will the church’s response be? Try to turn our world into a gated community where others are accused and rejected? Or seek to welcome and love?
But Hitler takes Hellboy behind the woodshed…
I saw the promo for Oprah Friday! It looks wonderful!!! I can’t wait!
“Justin,
If you had a wife and kids, you wouldn’t sit down with the person who broke into your house (unless you had no regard for the safety of your family). ”
No, I absolutely would try to talk to him. I’d address his humanity and offer to help him out in whatever way possible. If he tried to hurt my wife (who is currently my fiancee) I would do whatever I could to nonviolently keep him from her, and giving her the chance to escape.
I WILL NOT harm a person who threatens me and I WILL be Jesus to them, regardless of the situation.
Because that’s what we’re called to do. There is power in the resurrection, and that power over death gives us what we need to love regardless of the situation.
Roland,
I’ve listened to talk radio for my entire life (pre and post republichristian days). I even listened to Sean Hannity this afternoon. All I hear on talk radio about illegal immigration is blatant racism. You know the “I don’t hate illegals but..” phrases. If you truely believe that people need to follow the laws of the land when its possible, then why don’t you support laxing immigration laws? I don’t hear ANYONE calling for that. All I hear are statements about how “illegals” kill 25 people a day in this country (murders and car accidents) and how a mexican guy was arrested and that he’s “probably an illegal” and it SICKENS me. Its disgusting. Because most of these people saying these things are Christ followers. Illegal immigration is becoming our civil rights movement. If we are truely following Christ, we should stick up for these people when unjust laws are pushed on them and we should work to make it easier for them to come here. The Church should be leading the way in helping illegal aliens because WE ARE ALIENS as well. We are (supposed to be) living in Christ’s world, but I see a ton of folks stuck in Adam’s world and worshipping Caesar.
WOW! Students, the teacher in now in the class room. Please read Romans 13 tonight and resubmit your papers. Many of you failed this time. (An attempt at humor..)
Only when Roman law contradicted God’s will did anyone who followed Christ break the law. (”We should obey God rather than man”) when the apostles were warned to stop preaching Christ is one example.
Entering the United States illegally, thus breaking the law does not rise to the level of conflicting with God’s law. Wouldn’t it be nice to hold the door of your home open and invite all the hungry and ill clothed to come in to eat and get outfitted with nice clothing and then have someone else pay the tab? I don’t want to pay the tab for people who have no respect for the laws of our country.
I have worked scores of Hispanics and other immigrants over the years. They were some of the best people I have ever met. Some are still some of my dearest friends. And, every single one of them was here legally. Let the rest do the same.
Royce Ogle
We need to remember that not all “illegals” are coming across the mexican border . . . what about the Batistans coming in droves from Cuba . . . I don’t think they’re being sent back. In fact, they’ve taken over Miami and are spreading north. We just seem to be “selective” in who we don’t want living here.
And I’m confused on something else . . . Catholic is considered Christian. In many ways, the CoC is accepting of other faiths, i.e., Baptist, Methodist, etc., but not the Catholics. Why?
RM: “But, wait a minute. Didn’t someone already occupy this country when “we” arrived from Europe? Didn’t we steal their land? Does that make us all illegal immigrants? Let’s ask some Native Americans.”
RM, if you think about it, EVERYONE is an immigrant. Everyone except those born in the fertile Crescent oh so many years ago.
Justin, it saddens me that one cannot post a different opinion on this blog concerning illegals without being considered a bigot or racist. I don’t listen to Sean Hannity and don’t know how he got into this discussion. I am not even talking about hispanics. I am talking about people breaking the law. We can talk about reforming the laws and this and that but that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about law breakers.
I’m sorry that you cannot come to the table without throwing the racist card or the holier than thou card out there. Everyone else is making good and fair cases both ways but not you. I’ve tried to discuss things with you before and to no avail. It’s no different now.
Roland – have you ever broken a law? .
Yep. Sure have. Paid the price for it as well. I wasn’t given a free pass from the President either.
“RM, if you think about it, EVERYONE is an immigrant. Everyone except those born in the fertile Crescent oh so many years ago.”
Technically, they were immigrants too, from Africa where humankind evolved from lower primates. Civilization may have started in the fertile crescent, but mankind’s history of movement didn’t. But I think in common usage the term ‘immigrant’ only goes back so far. It’s hard to call Native Americans immigrants when comparing them to Europeans like me, even though the Native Americans did immigrate (10,000+ years ago).
Belinda makes a good point. Immigrating from Cuba is ok, because we count those people as political refugees. Interestingly, the boatloads of thousands of Haitian immigrants (many of whom drowned in the attempt) trying to get here from Haiti while the U.S. was supporting the brutal Duvalier dictatorships were sent back to die in Haiti. It seems, once again, that whether or not someone is legal or not depends more on prevailing political and social opinion, not on the question of justice.
This seems fundamentally unjust on the same level as other aspects of our past. If justice is the criteria by which we decide whether to follow the laws of our government, is assisting those who have already broken a law (but not necessarily facilitating them directly) really bad?
An honest question for Roland: would you have been involved in civil disobedience (and getting arrested) during the civil rights movement, or would you have advocated gradual reform thorugh legislation?
Roland and others, Justin does this every time on every blog. Just go to Larry James blog and others and see the nice way he posts there too!
Come on Justin. an adult conversation would be refreshing. Do really believe this really a Christ like attitude you are displaying? You blow up on every blog!
You go crazy on any post that has anything to do with politics. Chill out and think before typing.
No Belinda, while you might assume we all were meaning Hispanics, if you’ll scroll back through most folks just said “illegals”. Hispanics were used as an example most often because of the large number there is of them currently in this country. And as of now, they appear to be the only group that seems to be catered too. Illegals can be from anywhere.
Mike (and Larry!), thanks for this discussion and your salient-as-usual points. As we have faced much difficulty and heartache with the US system for LEGAL immigration, this is rather a sore subject. As my husband is British and white, some out there may think we don’t count. The fact that my legal status as an American cannot help him qualify for a green card also does not add up (he is a higher income earner than me, and that’s the US govt’s bottom line). When we found out a few months after Sept 11 that we would have to leave the USA, we were members of a CofC in North Dallas with over 1,500 members, and not one person even offered to help.
If you get a chance, please refer to my latest post about the TENT CITIES in Texas set up for illegal immigrants. The Washington Post reported on the sad state of two of them in a recent article.
Not sure we’ll get to see the Oprah broadcast anytime soon (they’re always months behind over here), but we send our warmest wishes and know many viewers will be touched into action!
Are there no prisons?
And the Union workhouses? Are they still in operation?
The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?
I case anyone still wants to know what *our* prisons are for: they are to provide housing for drug users at your expense.
BTW, these new Texas Tent Cities are the detention centres for illegal aliens/immigrants from nations other than Mexico. My post links to the WP article (sorry, I didn’t know how to do that here.)
Exploiting cheap labor is exactly how labor markets work. Cheap labor is not immoral unless it is forced labor. If a person is willing to work for, say, $5/hr and another is willing to work for $4.75/hr, you would be exploiting, and rightfully so, the cheaper wage preference by their own free will.
It always amazes me that people want to pay their “debts” to society with other people’s money and without regard to their risk preferences.
“Virtue is more to be feared than vice, because its excesses are not subject to the regulation of conscience.”
-Adam Smith
I tell you what, let’s quit wasting time. Here are 10 practical suggestions we can employ right now to eradicate all poverty and exploitation (they’ve even been put into practice in a few places in the past). Afterall, if we’re going to impose Christian justice, morality, and ecclesiastical practice on all society because we judge it to be more “Christlike”, then we will enact laws that require people to live with all things in common, just like the first century Church. You can join the revolution today, comrades!
1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.
Rob – Niet!
Man, that Godwin’s law thing made me squirt milk out my nose.
2nd time in 2 days that I have seen Godwin’s law on a blog thread. Awesome!
This really is a difficult issue to wrestle, but I do believe that God places the onus on the settled to care for the alien. Remember that the festival of the booths was a week where the people of Israel were commanded to make shelters and live in them to remind them that they were once foreigners and aliens. And I don’t think there was such a thing as an “illegal” alien back then. It was worse, those “aliens” God was referring to were Gentiles.
Hey…so am I… Maybe I should set up a tent and remind myself of my roots.
Rob-
Havn’t you heard? That’s what we’re doing.
Larry-
I think I would have left out the statistic about health insurance. The real shame is that they have no auto or life insurance. The finest health care in the world is available at Parkland, at no cost to them. No one is turned away. Some days more than 100 babies are born to illegal aliens at Parkland. I really don’t have any problem with that. The real problem is when they have an auto accident and cause harm to another person. Or when they die without life insurance and leave a family in Mexico with no bread winner.
Your comment about exploiting cheap labor is absurd. I’ve hired day laborors before from these immigrant labor centers. I pay $8-$10/hr for unskilled labor. I dare you you to hire someone from one of these places, work them all day, and try to pay them less than minimum wage. It’s a myth.
Mike-
How has Highland responded?
The most compassionate response is to give them a job and try to reach them with the gospel.
The problem with all the arguments I have seen here in favor of letting illegal immigrants stay here is the issue of relativism.
We have people who legitimately enter this country because their life is in danger in their native land (Iraq, Iran, Cuba, etc…). They are seeking asylum because their beliefs (sometimes about God) have condemned them to death, or at least hardship. Our country can do no less than to welcome them. Anything else would be wrong.
In Mexico, however, nobody is at risk of losing their life because they say the name “Jesus”. Nobody is in danger of being harmed because they are a Christian (at least from the government). These people are crossing the border for ECONOMICS only. I would probably try to jump the fence if I were one of them.
When we say that illegal aliens from Mexico should be allowed to stay, and even receive benefits, we are advocating that someone break a law because of their ECONOMIC CIRCUMSTANCES, not because their belief in God is in conflict with the law in question. When you reduce the motive to ECONOMIC CIRCUMSTANCE, you have made it relative. What is poor? What is considered rich? What is the standard, the cutoff point, the magic line beyond which one is considered financially comfortable? If we use Bill Gates as the standard, I could rob banks using the logic of the “pro-illegal-immigration” posters here. If ECONOMIC CIRCUMSTANCES justify the breaking of laws, and nobody can agree on how little is too little, then I can justify doing just about anything, as long as it makes me more comfortable.
The comments about Jesus “breaking laws” are just wrong. Jesus fulfilled the law perfectly, and even COMMANDED many he healed to go and show themselves to the priests, taking a sacrifice as the law required. He did not heal them and advise them to go into hiding to avoid trouble.
I am not talking about turning hungry people away. If we run into someone who is hungry and thirsty, I don’t care where they came from, or where they are going, they’re going to get a drink, something to eat, and they’re going to hear the gospel. HOWEVER, if they are here illegally, they are also going to be reported and deported, because the law requires it, and it is not in conflict with what God wants. If he wanted that Mexican to be born into a white, middle class suburb, I’m sure he could have made that happen. As such, that Mexican can apply to come here legally, and even though it may take a number of years, he can get here and live that lifestyle if he wants to badly enough.
Based on the arguments I’ve seen here, you would have a hard time arguing that I can’t just walk into a gazillionaires home, sit in his recliner, eat his food, and watch his tv. He is better off than me, and I’d like to live more like him. How can he refuse me? I just want a better life. He’d be sinning if he stopped me….He’s probably racist too, hates people from Arkansas…how dare he sit on that pile of goodies and not let me have any? How dare he expect me to work hard like he did, keep an eye out for opportunties, and make the most of them… He shouldn’t wait until I break in, he should call me right now and give me the entry codes. In fact, he better have an ice cold ginger ale waiting for me… Oh yeah, I’m bringing about thirty of my friends, too, and they would like a full major medical policy, as well as a spending stipend…
I know someone’s going to break out the bigot card, etc…, but what have I or anyone else here said that is bigoted? Nobody here said they hated Mexicans. Nobody here said they don’t like people with brown skin. I know several that have done work on projects I am involved with, and they were all here legally, doing their jobs, and contributing to society. Not wanting their illegal cousins up here doesn’t make me a bigot.
Why do the folks here that advocate breaking the law in terms of illegal immigration not argue for breaking the law to stop abortion? If “people, life, suffering, and justice always trump the law”, then why aren’t you ACTIVELY fighting abortion clinics? I don’t mean raising money for crisis pregnancy centers, either. I mean on the front lines, laying your body down across the clinic driveway, or even more. Is it because your allegiance is not really to what is right, but what is “SOCIALLY CORRECT”?
“People, life, suffering, and justice always trump the law” is just another platitude that nobody can really argue with, because it really doesn’t mean anything. “People…trump the law.”? What in the world is that supposed to mean? That if someone is unhappy or feels cheated, that he can break the law to make it right? If you really believe that life trumps the law, then we should be storming every abortion clinic in America, closing them down, and making sure no more open up…ever.
Brett, that is not an honest question: An honest question for Roland: would you have been involved in civil disobedience (and getting arrested) during the civil rights movement, or would you have advocated gradual reform thorugh legislation?”
That is apples and oranges. We are not discriminating people based on the color of their skin. There are laws on entering into this country. Doesn’t matter if you are white, brown, black, yellow, red or blue.
What is the problem about applying for legal entry? Is it on Mexico side or our side? Is it just a problem of time? People everywhere else wait years to get in. Do they just not want to wait? I have a lock on my doors and we use it. Sometimes it seems like we are debating the wrong question.
Terry, I think that is the exact issue. People are throwing all kinds of arguments around here. Different arguments.
The locks on the doors are exactly what I was pointing out when Mike said “Try to turn our world into a gated community…?” My question was, does Mike have locks on the church building or his car or his house? If he is critical of building a fence or having a border, why in the world does he have locks on his doors? Doesn’t he “… seek to welcome and love” in his own home?
After that, 10, 20 or 30 more different debates followed.
Apples and oranges are both fruit.
I’ve been watching this conversation since yesterday. Here’s a psychological cut at what’s happening. A meta-observation, an observation about observations.
I think your initial response to these kind of debates is highly diagnostic. For example, concerning immigration, when the issue is posed (as Mike did) is your first response to defend:
1. The alien
2. The nation (e.g., its laws and organization structure).
3. The American citizenry/worker
Once your initial defensive response is deployed that is generally where you stay although, eventually, all three need to be taken into consideration.
But as a Christian, I wonder what Jesus’ first reaction would be? Number 1, 2, or 3? And once we answer that question we can go on to ask if our gut reactions mirror his instincts.
If we visit a prisoner, is that not the same as visiting Jesus? If we show compassion and hospitality to an illegal immigrant is that not the same as showing compassion and hospitality to Jesus?
What if congress passes a law tomorrow granting amnesty to the 12 million illegal immigrants? Can we show them compassion then?
People of God should never wait on the approval of a government to dictate who they can show the love of God to. Sure we should not break laws for kicks, but what about the two greatest commands? I guess those should win the day, but it is clear they are not.
Wow, anarchy is alive and well as we discuss issues of law and obedience. I’ll be judged if I live in a hut or a palace, on how I look, dress, act, eat or drink. I’ll think I have the wisdom to discern all things about my brothers and sisters. I’ll know how they should think, act, when they should give, how they should give, how much they should give, I’ll offer all the solutions, for all the problems, for all times because I’m so full of wisdom.
I did grow up in a very simple, struggling lifestyle, I went without and worked on not feeling ashamed or poor. Things have changed in my life, I am “wealthy” compared to my earlier years and I feel very thankful and blessed, not because of what others see that I have, but because I know it doesn’t bring peace, health, happiness, friends, love, etc. and I know it can be gone in a minute.
That being said, I’d like it if we’d focus on how gifted we all our, with many different gifts,and serve in the kingdom of God according to what God has given us, through His Spirit.
Pray for me to let God work in my life and let me give my money, time, love, food, clothing, moral support, what ever it is that I feel compelled to do, as God works in me and through me. Let me be a good steward of all of the blessings I’ve been given and then, let God judge me, I’d feel safer in the arms of Jesus, with all my flaws and sin.
But for God’s sake, let’s quit deciding who’s got the right view about every issue and expecting everyone to see it the same way. We won’t survive, I really trust God will work in the lives of His people. He will change our hearts and minds about many things, over our lifetime.
There isn’t one cause for Christ, one way, nor one view, as each of you is salt and light, you bring change to those around you every day, in many ways and maybe no one even notices.
Pray for the countries that have harsh dictators ruling and making things for their countrymen hard. Pray for the global community to put pressure on said governments and pray you will have the blessing to always live in this flawed democracy.
Blessings, Lorene
Lorene – we live in a federal republic, not a democracy. Pray we never live in a democracy.
Troy – Oh, I have heard. Everytime I get my paycheck, I hear.
Kerry – Great comments.
Kerry, excellent, excellent arguments; you are a voice of reason.
I recently saw a news report from a conservative representative who stated, plainly, that as soon as the law cracks down on companies who hire illegals, then the motivation for such out-of-control border crossing will stop. Makes sense to me.
Roland,
An honest question it was indeed, albeit it a leading one, and with an obvious answer. I think that purposely breaking the law (i.e. civil disobedience) was the correct, right, moral thing to do in the civil rights movement. And I’m sure you agree. The question, then, is what is it about that situation that made breaking the law ok?
Apples and oranges? Sure, but Steve is right- they’re both fruit, and they both grow on trees. You say that you are only upholding the law, not discriminating on race, and I agree. My complaint is against the very laws themselves. Laws can be unjust, and as long as the only standard is to follow the law as it is, one will be blind to the law as it could be. It just so happens that in this case, by no accident of history, the laws are specifically designed to keep the poorest of the poor out by limiting quotas and by a tiresome system for ‘legal immigration’ that left to itself would leave most of the potential immigrants whiling away their lives in desperate poverty.
This is an interesting conversation. I also find it interesting that CNN just reported 2 days ago about the increase in Klan membership/chapters nationwide. When interviewed, the imperial wizard of Illinois admitted that the illegal immigration issue is a “winning strategy” to gain membership. If the Klan is “for” something, then my position is usually going to be “against.” I just find it surprising that people are so vehement about this issue. We (and I include myself in this) become so afraid that “they” are going to take what “we” have earned or had the advantages to earn.
I am a college graduate, but I am the first in my family to do so (and still the only). I worked and I paid my own way. I have never had anything “handed” to me – but I recognize that I had the cultural advantages to make my success happen. Seems that most people who “came from nothing” think that all people have the tools to do that. Financially I came from nothing, but spiritually and culturally, I was rich with advantages.
I find it so interesting that the people who employ those crossing into
our country illegally are not held up public scrutiny. Let’s expose those people who are lining their pockets with the money saved using immigrant labor. Oops – we might not want to do that. No telling what we’ll find under those rocks.
People aren’t leaving Cuba because of their religious beliefs . . . there are a lot of Catholics in Cuba. They leave because they can’t be in control like they once were, under Batista. Read the history books.
Jordan is correct: The Bible seems to indicate that the “have” are responsible for caring for the “have nots” without the “have nots” having to ask.
There is so much misinformation regarding our immigration challenge. Having worked in the roofing business for eight years, I probably have a different perspective since I have worked with subs who had undocumented workers on their crews. Concractors do not have much of a choice regarding hiring crew leaders who use undocumented workers.
One of the reasons that there are not Americans for these jobs is because we have raised a couple of decades of youth that do not know how to work. Construction is hard work. If you become “good with a hammer,” regardless of your background, you can make very good money. I have known many roofers who have paid for houses, vehicles, etc. Their net worth is greater than many of the folks that live in the wealthy neighborhoods around our big cities in Texas.
Just a few “drive by” comments. My main point is that both sides of the issue really do not what to here the truth. For some reason, “we can’t handle the truth.” There many naive as well as bull-headed folks when it comes to immigration.
Here we go again…..
First Nazis and now The Klan.
Amazing.
David, the whole myth about “doing jobs that American’s are not willing to do” is just that…a myth. Companies hire illegals for cheap labor. American’s are ok with it because they get lower priced products. Take them out of the mix and the market would correct and companies would pay more and more people would take the job.
It’s a form of the “invisible hand” at work.
JM – if the hood fits….
http://www.freegilmer.com
Nice site you have!
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