Comments on: The Difference Between You and God http://preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god Sniffing out the work of God in the world... Sat, 22 Nov 2008 00:30:02 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Brandon Scott Thomas http://preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-43410 Brandon Scott Thomas Wed, 24 Jan 2007 22:41:17 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-43410 well, let's see...last year when I was sick and running from both ends, you used me as a teaching tool and made me run around the auditorium during your sermon...hmmmm...paybacks might be sweet this year. well, let’s see…last year when I was sick and running from both ends, you used me as a teaching tool and made me run around the auditorium during your sermon…hmmmm…paybacks might be sweet this year.

]]> By: Glenn http://preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-43124 Glenn Wed, 24 Jan 2007 00:12:29 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-43124 Speaking of not being able to stand... I have had cause to think about this one over the past couple of years. Most Sundays for the past year my wife has been unable to stand up for the songs. She can either sit and sing a little, stand for a while and not sing at all, and some days just has to sit and listen. Often I just can't "stand" to stand while she has to sit, so I join her. It is a different perspective that I encourage everyone to try. For one, it's amazing how much of our assemblies now require a standing position to read the lyrics to the song, engage in responsive readings, or see scriptures on the screen (unless you are on the front row - and that's not a good option when health is poor). And as the old saying goes, unless you are the lead sled dog - the view never changes. So while I smile at the thought of Zoe on stools with legs lifted, maybe it's not too much to ask on occasion. Anybody else noticed this trend and its impact on the less mobile? Speaking of not being able to stand… I have had cause to think about this one over the past couple of years. Most Sundays for the past year my wife has been unable to stand up for the songs. She can either sit and sing a little, stand for a while and not sing at all, and some days just has to sit and listen. Often I just can’t “stand” to stand while she has to sit, so I join her. It is a different perspective that I encourage everyone to try. For one, it’s amazing how much of our assemblies now require a standing position to read the lyrics to the song, engage in responsive readings, or see scriptures on the screen (unless you are on the front row - and that’s not a good option when health is poor). And as the old saying goes, unless you are the lead sled dog - the view never changes. So while I smile at the thought of Zoe on stools with legs lifted, maybe it’s not too much to ask on occasion. Anybody else noticed this trend and its impact on the less mobile?

]]> By: annie http://preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-43116 annie Tue, 23 Jan 2007 23:32:48 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-43116 Love the Anne Lamott quote. To go along with it----the difference between God & human beings is that God is merciful, & human beings tend not to be. I'm working hard on that one. Love the Anne Lamott quote. To go along with it—-the difference between God & human beings is that God is merciful, & human beings tend not to be. I’m working hard on that one.

]]> By: qb http://preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-43108 qb Tue, 23 Jan 2007 22:39:53 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-43108 Yup, I had come to that conclusion, too...it is that sort of humility that makes possible all manner of other virtues, so although the use of the term "preeminent" strikes the word "humility" at funny angles, I have to concur that humility is the preeminent virtue. It is, for example, the foundation that permits agape to emerge from phileo or eros as a substance entirely different from either, an intrinsically giving rather than receiving sort of love. But kenosis' preeminence is a dangerous idea, threatening to the status quo. Witness the advancing tendency for evangelical churches to ask (and then dutifully to advertise) for essentially unchallenged, CEO-level leadership in the pulpit...I ask rhetorically, is that tendency likely to call forth the kinds of myn that will remind us of Moses, or of Saul? Just wondering, qb Yup, I had come to that conclusion, too…it is that sort of humility that makes possible all manner of other virtues, so although the use of the term “preeminent” strikes the word “humility” at funny angles, I have to concur that humility is the preeminent virtue. It is, for example, the foundation that permits agape to emerge from phileo or eros as a substance entirely different from either, an intrinsically giving rather than receiving sort of love.

But kenosis’ preeminence is a dangerous idea, threatening to the status quo. Witness the advancing tendency for evangelical churches to ask (and then dutifully to advertise) for essentially unchallenged, CEO-level leadership in the pulpit…I ask rhetorically, is that tendency likely to call forth the kinds of myn that will remind us of Moses, or of Saul?

Just wondering,

qb

]]> By: KentF http://preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-43090 KentF Tue, 23 Jan 2007 21:08:36 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-43090 Blessings on your recouping Mike! Wish we could trek out to Lubbock - we'll see. Blessings on your recouping Mike! Wish we could trek out to Lubbock - we’ll see.

]]> By: clint http://preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-43076 clint Tue, 23 Jan 2007 19:58:33 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-43076 Matthew 12 43"When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation." Matthew 12
43″When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”

]]> By: Steve Jr. http://preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-43055 Steve Jr. Tue, 23 Jan 2007 18:31:51 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-43055 Amen, Richard. "Goneness" is truly one of the unique characteristics of our faith, but I'm afraid there seems to be a deficit of it in many Christian circles these days. Instead, the person or group who can make their presence known is the more virtuous. Amen, Richard. “Goneness” is truly one of the unique characteristics of our faith, but I’m afraid there seems to be a deficit of it in many Christian circles these days. Instead, the person or group who can make their presence known is the more virtuous.

]]> By: carolyn dycus http://preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-43052 carolyn dycus Tue, 23 Jan 2007 18:22:15 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-43052 Richard, et al, "death of self, a filling..." reminds me of the song lyrics, "Break me, melt me, mold me, fill me," which is my continuing prayer until death do I part from my stubborn self... tho I'd like to be "Gone" sooner! Richard, et al, “death of self, a filling…” reminds me of the song lyrics, “Break me, melt me, mold me, fill me,” which is my continuing prayer until death do I part from my stubborn self… tho I’d like to be “Gone” sooner!

]]> By: Trey http://preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-43041 Trey Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:28:13 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-43041 My favorite quote: “Lord I crawled across the barrenness to you with my empty cup uncertain in asking any small drop of refreshment. If only I had known you better I'd have come running with a bucket.” - Nancy Spiegelberg My favorite quote:

“Lord I crawled across the barrenness to you with my empty cup uncertain in asking any small drop of refreshment. If only I had known you better I’d have come running with a bucket.” - Nancy Spiegelberg

]]> By: Richard http://preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-43039 Richard Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:25:01 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-43039 Josh and gb, Just to keep talking with you both... More and more I'm convinced that the master virtue of Christian life is <b>kenosis</b>. Kenosis is the word in Philippians 2:7 variously translated as "empty" or "nothing." As in, "Jesus emptied himself" or "Jesus made himself nothing." I think if you look at long lists of Christian virtues, from humility to self-control to servanthood to kindness to turning the other cheek, that kenosis, the emptying of self, is the root virtue. Interestingly, kenosis is a master virtue in Buddhism as well. One of the names for the Buddha was "Gone." That is, his ego had been extinguished. "He" was no longer there. But I think Christians add to this. In Christianity, after kenosis, often called the "death of self,” there is a filling, a replacement. Another ego takes the place of my ego: The mind of Christ. I like the idea of spiritual formation being my name going from “Richard” to “Gone” to “Christ.” Josh and gb,
Just to keep talking with you both…

More and more I’m convinced that the master virtue of Christian life is kenosis. Kenosis is the word in Philippians 2:7 variously translated as “empty” or “nothing.” As in, “Jesus emptied himself” or “Jesus made himself nothing.”

I think if you look at long lists of Christian virtues, from humility to self-control to servanthood to kindness to turning the other cheek, that kenosis, the emptying of self, is the root virtue.

Interestingly, kenosis is a master virtue in Buddhism as well. One of the names for the Buddha was “Gone.” That is, his ego had been extinguished. “He” was no longer there.

But I think Christians add to this. In Christianity, after kenosis, often called the “death of self,” there is a filling, a replacement. Another ego takes the place of my ego: The mind of Christ. I like the idea of spiritual formation being my name going from “Richard” to “Gone” to “Christ.”

]]> By: Greg http://preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-43028 Greg Tue, 23 Jan 2007 16:47:38 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-43028 Do people who under-produce over-work? Or, perhaps people who under-produce also under-work. (is that a word?) Perhaps too much analysis screws up the saying:) Do people who under-produce over-work? Or, perhaps people who under-produce also under-work. (is that a word?) Perhaps too much analysis screws up the saying:)

]]> By: qb http://preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-43009 qb Tue, 23 Jan 2007 14:59:54 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-43009 Richard, you've nailed it well: "eschewing power dynamics in relationships." That is at the center of how Paul describes how Christ came in Philippians 2, laying down the prerogatives of power. As to the psychology of it...laying down the prerogatives of power flows from a deep-seated security in Christ instead of leading to a debasement of self. Your phrasing is really helpful. So: to the extent that I am a control freak, I cannot possibly be possessed of much humility, because the issue becomes (a) what I am doing to secure the outcomes I think ought to obtain rather than (b) what God is doing to bring His purposes into reality. qb Richard, you’ve nailed it well: “eschewing power dynamics in relationships.” That is at the center of how Paul describes how Christ came in Philippians 2, laying down the prerogatives of power. As to the psychology of it…laying down the prerogatives of power flows from a deep-seated security in Christ instead of leading to a debasement of self. Your phrasing is really helpful.

So: to the extent that I am a control freak, I cannot possibly be possessed of much humility, because the issue becomes (a) what I am doing to secure the outcomes I think ought to obtain rather than (b) what God is doing to bring His purposes into reality.

qb

]]> By: Josh http://preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-42992 Josh Tue, 23 Jan 2007 14:01:49 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-42992 Wow. The Lamott quote is a zinger. I'd say she's dead-on. Richard, I love your reflections on humility. Some friends and I just began a study called "What should the Gospel DO to people?" One of our conclusions, of course, is that it should cause a deep sense of humility to spring forth in our lives that manifests itself in serving others, especially those who can't speak up for themselves. Wow. The Lamott quote is a zinger. I’d say she’s dead-on.

Richard, I love your reflections on humility. Some friends and I just began a study called “What should the Gospel DO to people?” One of our conclusions, of course, is that it should cause a deep sense of humility to spring forth in our lives that manifests itself in serving others, especially those who can’t speak up for themselves.

]]> By: Richard http://preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-42989 Richard Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:57:55 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-42989 Given your Anne Lamott quote some reflections on humility… Interestingly, narcissists do really well in life. Their inflated egos tend make them immune to most setbacks. The main costs for narcissists are not psychological but social. They are jerks. The issue, then, for psychologists investigating humility is (if humility is the opposite of narcissism) to see if the primary good in humility is social. Is the only benefit of being humble the fact that you are nice to be around? Further, if humility is involved in some sort of ego-deflation are there not so good mental health consequences for being humble (e.g., low esteem, lack of assertiveness)? Personally, beg off these ego-based formulations of humility (common in the church as well as in psychology). I don’t think humility is about ego exactly. I think humility is primarily about eschewing power dynamics in relationships. Life is permeated by hierarchies and power structures (think of your workplace). Humility less about issues of self-esteem and more about refusing to relate to people via power structures. Given your Anne Lamott quote some reflections on humility…

Interestingly, narcissists do really well in life. Their inflated egos tend make them immune to most setbacks. The main costs for narcissists are not psychological but social. They are jerks. The issue, then, for psychologists investigating humility is (if humility is the opposite of narcissism) to see if the primary good in humility is social. Is the only benefit of being humble the fact that you are nice to be around? Further, if humility is involved in some sort of ego-deflation are there not so good mental health consequences for being humble (e.g., low esteem, lack of assertiveness)?

Personally, beg off these ego-based formulations of humility (common in the church as well as in psychology). I don’t think humility is about ego exactly. I think humility is primarily about eschewing power dynamics in relationships. Life is permeated by hierarchies and power structures (think of your workplace). Humility less about issues of self-esteem and more about refusing to relate to people via power structures.

]]> By: clint http://preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-42987 clint Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:45:27 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2007/01/23/the-difference-between-you-and-god#comment-42987 well if they do not help at least you will have a leg up on them :) well if they do not help at least you will have a leg up on them :)

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