Yesterday:
1. Taught one of our Ladies’ Bible Classes — the one that has been going through Beth Moore’s series on Daniel. I told them my talk was entitled, “Daniel, Apocalyptic, the Millennium, Hanukkah, and Why No Minister in His Right Mind Would Get Between A Bunch of Women and Beth Moore.” I told them that the very few times I’ve heard Beth Moore I’ve loved her stuff. She is a faithful sister in Christ — and a powerful teacher and preacher of the good news. Then I went on to paint a picture of Daniel that I’m guessing, based on what I’d heard, is quite a bit different. (More on that later, perhaps.) That doesn’t change one bit, however, my appreciate for the way Beth Moore has led people back to a careful study of scripture.
2. Went to the 8th grade band concert. Is this really the same group we listened to a couple years ago? There was no, well, screeching. It wasn’t painful. It was, rather, quite good. It reminds me of how important patient training is — for playing instruments as well as for spiritual formation.
3. Attended the Christmas party for the elementary school where Diane teaches. Met a few new people and got to be with some friends we’ve been blessed to know since moving to Abilene.
4. Ripped the video of Chris’s baptism and put it on his iPod. Mission accomplished. (One more picture — of people gathering around Chris for prayer following the baptism.)
I’d love to “see” a little bit of that Daniel picture that you painted!!!
I think Beth Moore saved my spiritual life.(OK - it was God working through Beth) I was in a ‘Believing God’ class right at the moment when I wasn’t sure that I did. Amazing woman indeed!
I have gone through other Beth Moore studies, but I haven’t gone through Daniel. My curiosity is piqued.
Of course, you realize whose “picture” will trump. : )
Sure I do, Serena. The trusted minister who’s faithfully been preaching God’s word in their midst for 15 1/2 years!
Ha!
Mike, I’m also guessing the picture of Daniel you painted was quite a bit different than Beth’s. My wife’s study group just went through this study, and I was actually called in to address them as an advocate of the pre-millenial view she espouses, which we’ve mentioned here before. ( I think she nails it on the head, by the way.)
The Daniel study she does is two pronged: Personal Holiness, and the look at prophecy as she views it. Not everyone was in agreement with the apocalyptic view, but the personal life and discipline of Daniel she presents was well worth the study all by itself. My wife loved it from that standpoint.
Our Women’s Bible Study Group hasn’t done Beth’s “Daniel” study yet, but we’ve done just about all her other studies the last several years. We do a survey at the end of each one, & overwhelmingly, the ones who turn in their sheet vote to do the next current study she has out. The lessons are good, but the DVD’s are always wonderful, in our opinion.
I pray often that the men of our congregation would be willing to listen to her teach in the DVD’s. She’s a woman of God, for sure.
Mike,
Our ladies just finished the Daniel study. After reading through all of the material in chapters 7-9 - and listening to Beth’s position on it as a Dispensational Pre Millinial.
I was really proud of the facilitator we had and how she led a group of several women from 9 different denominational backgrounds through this study without a single hitch.
I thought it was a fantastic study because it calls women to actually study the reign and rule of Christ from an historical perspective and it gives at least some form of an overview of prophecy - which, for the most part - people are pretty much apathetic towards.
It was a great study for our ladies - have you studied the material yet? It’ll be a doosy in a cofc but I also think Beth does a great job with this one.
Dispensational Pre-Millenialist…sorry
I’m actually blown away by how hungry people are for this today. They no longer want to settle for “Christ is reigning and ruling now” and “everything has been fulfilled” except the final judgments…
I would love to sit with the leading cofc pastors and theologians on this one. I think there is more stirring in the spirit in this arena than is surfacing in many public forums. It’s just hard to admit that the Baptists may have some things in the ballpark on this one.
A Cappella isn’t the only controversial word in our faith that is hard to spell - Dispensational pre-millennialist is hard to spell. There after three tries and looking it up I think I spelt it rite!
The first time I did a Beth Moore study I thought, “I want my daughters to see this. I want them to see that women can be Bible scholars and can TEACH like this.”
Next semester my oldest daughter will be finishing high school and then leaving home for college. Well, sort of. She’s going to Harding; I work at Harding. Anyway, we’re going to do Jesus the One and Only together before she leaves home for the dorm. Introducing my daughters to Beth Moore has become an item on my list of things I must do before my girls leave my house. We need our daughters to see what’s possible for women in the church and, for the most part, they are not seeing within the walls of our own buildings.
I’m not exactly what people can a “panmillennialist” (basically unconcerned because it will all pan out in the end). In my humble opinion, there are important implications with the different visions. E.g., I believe much American foreign policy is based on bad theology (that is, dispensational premillennialism). I’ll plan to come back to this.
Amen, Mike. I think that dispensational premillennialism can be innocous, but it can also lead to some really bad theology and practices. REALLY bad practices! I think that a proper reading of Matthew 23-25 can do a lot to help out with this discussion. Maybe you and your extensive background in Greek can help sort out that text (this and that are important!)
I appreciate Beth Moore’s ministry, but those eyes really creep me out. Yikes.
That’s my shallow response for the day. More to come some other day.
Matt, I kind of agree. I had a hard time listening (relating) to her, not because she is a woman, but because I couldn’t get past her delivery. The women love it, though, like our esteemed moderator said. Don’t get between them and the video screen.
And if there’s any doubt, click here.
I rest my case.
Looking forward to you coming back to this one.
and these are better
talk about the pot and kettke
“Eyes” — loved that! Actually, that photoshop version improves my looks quite a bit. Perhaps I should market videos.
I don’t do “fill in the blank” well, so Beth Moore studies have always been hard for me. But I am so thankful that she is helping to transform women’s bible study into something more meaty than another angle at Prov. 31.
All I know about anything is that my wife likes Beth Moore’s stuff, and if it’s good enough for Chrissy, it’s good enough for me.
Just a little weary of every Ladies Class doing a Beth Moore study. I appreciate how she does lead students to study and read the scripture, but sometimes fear she could say anything and students just know it was true because Beth Moore said it.
Sandra, I think Beth would feel terrible if she thought women were saying things from the Bible were true just because she said it. One can tell how much reverence she holds for the scriptures—-her tying together of Old & New Testament is just wonderful. I’ll never weary of her fresh, Spirit-filled love of THE WORD.
I look forwardto the day when Churches of Christ are producing young women who can teach and preach with the effectiveness of Beth Moore. I think the efforts of Jeanene Reese are starting to pay dividends for us. I think we are just beginning to tap the vast potential of women in our (brotherhood?) churches.
Beaner, I’m in a group studying “Believeing God” right now (and wearing the blue tassels:). It is a powerful study. Beth Moore’s “Breaking Free” study really ministered to me a few years ago and still affects my thinking. It’s good to see her name on this blog.
Matt Elliott, you deserved that eyes comment you know.
What is dispensational premillennialism? Or do i want to know?
SG, if you go to Wikipedia and search for premillennialism, that encyclopedia entry does it pretty good justice. There is a paragraph in that article on dispensational premillennialism that describes this particular strain.
Basically, it is one of several beliefs in Christian eschatology, the study of end time prophetic events.
I dislike the breadth of Moore’s influence precisely because she is NOT a “Bible scholar,” as Lisa Burley put it. She is not a trained exegete, textual critic, or theologian. Free-church America sometimes praises that lack of training, but I don’t.
I don’t hold to her narrow, modern view of the nature and function of scripture. There are, indeed, trained people out there who do hold to something like that, but few in the CoC are likely to consult them and, thus, receive some measure of reliable instruction on the text.
I don’t know Moore’s work well enough to say if it really encourages study or instead uses polished, structured devotional reading to convince participants that they are studying. Both study and devotion have a place in the church, but neither is a replacement for the other.
Moore’s influence in the CoC signifies to me how parts of our fellowship are trading one flavor of fundamentalism for another. All fundamentalisms seem intellectually bankrupt to me, so this isn’t a development that I greet happily.
Jeff,
I think that the gravitation toward Beth Moore is probably more of a reflection of people are hungry and thirsty. They will drink anything that tastes like water! I believe that Beth Moore and Ray Vanderlaan are kind of in the same boat. There are bones to pick, but I simply LOVE the passion with which they approach God’s word. Don’t agree with everything, but I love the passion.
13 When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.
Jeff W., You sound a little like you swallowed a persimmon today.
Jordan,
The CoC has raised a generation of unmoored believers (pun completely intended!) who know that something was dreadfully wrong with the tradition of teaching and practice offered to them and who have latched on to the nearest Moore-ing that dispenses with the ills they perceive. My lament is that very few will detect the common problems underlying both the old moor and the new Moore.
Ignorant, I can’t comment on the quality of Moore’s passion for scripture. I see passion in Hagee and his ilk and see little virtue in it. If her passion for scripture leads many to a passion for God and his righteousness, then I certainly praise God for his hand in it.
I wondered how long it would take for Acts 4 to rear its head.
God’s rule does not depend on human knowledge, but he has chosen to operate through human faculties. The unschooled may lead the church in piety and righteousness, but they aren’t the ones to take on the Bible-teaching duties of the church. We gravely underestimate our distance from the Bible text and reduce the doctrine of Christian community if we appeal to this passage to enshrine the go-it-alone studies of the ignorant as the model for Bible study in the church.
The CoC was built, however, on such a model: every Christian a scholar. That reeks of modern Americanism, it bucks tradition, it defies the scriptural witness, and it will take a long time to remedy.
it takes the scholar to understand the unschooled.
Is it blasphemous if I say that Beth Moore bugs me? I don’t know maybe I am just bothered when people come close to worshipping someone and seem to believe everything that comes out of her mouth is gospel. So, Mike, I would say not to assume that every woman has bonded with her…
Once again - I’m glad there are so many who have it all figured out.
I just continue to get surprised by arrogance and critical hearts. It’s part of the air of the negative aspects of the restorationist culture.
Anytime you figure out what was the “originally right pattern” - then try to restore it - you’re in for a mess. It can’t be figured out and it can’t be restored.
Curses come upon negative hearts who criticize the work of God in other believers as there is life and death in the power of the tongue.
Please guard our mouths Lord!
On another note - Beverly it’s not blasphemous - but you may want to seek to become a little less bugable.
Coming from a cofc preacher’s kid background, I went to my first Beth Moore study a little jaded–basically with the thought that she wouldn’t know anything about the bible and I could quietly drop out after the first lesson. Boy was I surprised and humbled. Beth knows a whole lot more about scripture than I do and I have learned a lot at her feet. Beth may not have been to seminary but she is certainly a scholar of the word. I don’t always agree with the doctrine she teaches but she is an amazing teacher who loves God and His word. She is an humble servant who says over and over–don’t take it for truth just because I say it–go study for yourselves. Because of her background, she can reach out to women who have been abused or who have abused themselves and show them that there is a God who loves them and can/will forgive them of ANY sin, regardless of what it is. A lot of women (and men) don’t believe that–even though they have been church goers for many years. She is indeed one of the best teachers/preachers I have ever heard and I’m thankful that God prepared the way for me to study with Beth, most especially the study she did on the old testament tabernacle and how it points to Christ–A Woman’s Heart God’s Dwelling Place. Two Thumbs Up!
Anyone who has gone through a Beth Moore study, watched her video series, or attended a conference will know that Beth encourages STRONGLY that any Bible student - especially the women doing her studies – not “follow” any one teacher - specifically her. Perhaps she did not attend a seminary or preaching school, but she does not just sit down and whip out a fluffy little jewel. She consults Bible scholars and would be appalled if she misled anyone in a Biblical truth. And while there may be ladies out there who are overzealous for Beth – just as people were/are for Jeff Walling, Rubel Shelly, Max Lucado, etc. – that is not Beth’s purpose in her ministry and she also strongly discourages any idolization of herself or anyone other than Jesus himself. She only shares her life story and struggles in the pit to point other to how God can make a difference in a person’s life. He is the hero, not Beth.
I had heard lots of women rave about Beth Moore’s studies and wondered what all the hooplah was about. Then I started the Living Beyond Yourself study this fall, and Beth’s insight, along with the discussion generated with the older ladies in my class, has been a great encouragement and blessing to me.
Beth Moore and the author of this blog have both been gifted with the skills to preach/teach to the masses. THANK GOD that they have chosen to glorify the Lord with their gifts. I will listen to them both anytime, anywhere!
hey, jeff..just curious about the seeking i need to be doing..”less bugable”..hahaha..what the heck does that mean?
okay..couldn’t resist…hahahahaha..
Mike,
It is great to see members gathering around a new child of God in reverence to the God of all Grace. Beautiful!
Gallagher
Does everyone still love me even if I’m not into Beth Moore..? Help a sista out….Jeff..ya there?
Yes - just got home and checked email and saw that you commented.
It’s ok to not be into Beth Moore…
I remember one time a mentor of mine was being confronted after sharing a message at a conference and the person said, “You know, it just bugs me when you say _________.”
And my friend replied, “Friend, I’m sorry that bugs you. There’s not much I can do to change that. Could you consider being unbugged about it.”
Beverly - I don’t know you - and I don’t know how easily bugged you are by people - but thought it maybe a good approach toward someone that you see as being worshiped by others and she does nothing to ask for that glory.
A little less bugable could mean… pray for her ministry as Christ is also interceding for her - rather than partnering with the accuser in viewing her only as the object of other’s worship.
People bug me too - I just want to become more and more unbugable.
Jeff W. writes: “We gravely underestimate our distance from the Bible text and reduce the doctrine of Christian community if we appeal to this passage to enshrine the go-it-alone studies of the ignorant as the model for Bible study in the church.”
Does our distance from the Bible text also place distance between us and the guidance of the Holy Spirit? I think not. To hold that only those that have theology degrees are able to teach correctly is to assume that Jesus didn’t know what He was talking about when He said, “Go, Teach…” IIRC, He did not say, “Go to ACU [or Harding, or Pepperdine, or your fav] get a degree and THEN you can go, teach and understand My Word.”
I pray I’m misunderstanding you, but must say my perception of your POV is that it is one of total arrogance toward the non-degreed.
How does the song go?
“Humble thyself in sight of the LORD”
…”and HE will lift you up.”
Being bugged say’s more about us than it does about the person bugging us.
bugable, I don’t know you, so I can’t say I love you, but I do wish you would give Beth Moore a chance. She exhibits the Fruit of The Spirit, & longs for everyone to be filled with Christ. I have come to love her—-not worship her—-for who she stands for, and that is, Our LORD.
I would love to hear what you told the class, Mike! After the Daniel study I emailed my unsuspecting preacher with a long list of questions!
I grew up in the CoC and had opportunity to learn from a number of talented preachers with degrees from the big name preaching schools and universities, but it wasn’t until I was 32 years old and in a Beth Moore Bible study that grace became heart-knowledge and not just head-knowledge. Beth’s studies have sent me deeper into Bible study than I’ve ever been before, and I’ve delved into other books I may never have approached otherwise: The Twelve Caesars by Seutonius, Foxe’s Book of Martyrs, the IVP Bible Dictionaries, … For the study on Daniel, I have the Joyce Baldwin commentaries from my church library and I dug out my notes from Don McLaughlin’s study on Revelation from college camp in 1988. I would love to email Don again and beg for clarification on some things!
Beth may not be seminary trained, but she does not insult our intelligence as do so many other studies and “devotionals”. I don’t agree with every single thing she says, but she has helped me see a much clearer picture of who God is and what it means to follow Him.
man..this is an intense group..
Bugs, this is cake compared to what generally gets thrown around here.
Mike,
I am waiting to hear more about American policy being based on bad theology. That sounds very interesting and very relevant and could be very true.
As to Beth Moore… I had the misfortune to have as my first Beth Moore study, “The Patriarchs”. While her teaching methods and passion for the Word were commendable, I found her subtle bashing of Abraham and Joseph a little unsettling. My friend who invited me to attend also didn’t enjoy that series, but has urged me to try another one which I probably will.
And illiterate Christians who simply live what they know, are they unqualified to teach…how precious are the feet of any who teach about Messiah.
A long time ago, I got over the fact that I missed out on a college degree. I did feel inferior to the formally educated for awhile, but I got over it. That’s when God opened my heart to school me through his word, his Holy Spirit and other Christians’ study. I’m comfortable with the Bible, other Christians, the Holy Spirit and Jesus as my tutors.
About influencers and sharing: Without being scholarly or college degrees, Mary and Joseph reared Jesus.
At the church where I serve our women went through this same series, and I last wednesday was asked to come to respond to Moore’s perspective. What I agreed with her the most was that there are scholars on many sides of this issue and that it shouldnt divide us. I would be without a doubt on the other side from her, but not on that point. We should be able to disagree without being disagreeable (quote from Moore’s book and Jack Reese’s new one- do you think Jack stole from Beth that line…hum?) Obviously Moore is not a scholar, but she does have a good bit of humility which I respect and hope to immitate.
By the way, I am glad that the women at my church didnt try to stab me when I contradicted her, because like many of you they have been blessed by her work.
Cathy and Kathy,
Untrained and illiterate Christians who “live what they know” can be wonderful trainers in righteousness and witnesses to Christ. They aren’t qualified to be Bible scholars and teachers of the Bible.
It is a mistake to think (or to tacitly reinforce through our priorities) that the only teaching of worth in the church is the teaching of the scriptures. It is likewise a mistake to think that all Christians should be engaged in teaching the scriptures. A healthy doctrine of Christian community should avoid both those mistakes.
Jeff W: So exactly what is the appropriate training required for one to be a teacher and scholar of the Bible and how did you come to that conclusion?
I’m not being sarcastic - I’m seriously asking because I don’t get it…
And would you rather be a scholar of the Bible before the Lord or would you rather be a wonderful trainer in righteousness and witness to Christ? It seems to me that the “scholars” who were appropriately trained were the ones the Lord had the most difficult time with.
Perhaps it’s because of I Cor 11:1 - Knowledge puffs up. There’s dangerous arrogance weaved throughout your comments
Pretty interesting thought process there
Jeff J,
The church should prayerfully discern what good training for Bible scholarship is. I contend that Moore’s training is inadequate simply because there are many who are better trained.
Should she be a blessing to hurting people? God demands it! Should she perpetuate shoddy scholarship as the standard for the church? Not if she can discern that laxness in the church’s past and present character and also discern her contribution to it.
Should she teach her Sunday school class? Perhaps so; I don’t know her situation. Should she produce a series of materials that purports to be Bible study? No.
As to the Lord’s difficulty with scholars: the church’s evaluation of scholar teachers cannot be confined to the study and the lecture hall.
Who are you, Jeff W., & what is your vocational calling?
Annie,
Do you mean my Christian vocation or what I do to stay fed?
I’ve never felt much of a religious calling into a program or a well-defined “ministry”. My ministry to the church is chiefly to preach peace. That takes a lot of forms
I make money as an applied mathematician.
It just struck me that some readers might have been tempted to guess that I’m Jeff Walling. Him I ain’t.
Quoting Jeff Jenkins — “And would you rather be a scholar of the Bible before the Lord or would you rather be a wonderful trainer in righteousness and witness to Christ?”
Why do you make this an either-or? Jesus was quite a Torah scholar, and at the same time, he was a trainer in righteousness, a witness for the Lord. Can’t someone be both?
I know that Jeff W would agree that anyone who has discovered the love of Christ should proclaim it! Teach others that God loves them … tell them, show them. We all know a person who, though without a formal education, is a living testimony to Christ through a changed life, compassion, service, love. Even small children or mentally challenged people can teach others about God’s love. We can learn so much about being a Christian from these people.
However, a person without an education in theology, philosophy, history, etc., should be cautious about teaching theology, philosophy, and history. (This perhaps includes interpreting Daniel or Revelation.) I would rather learn about that from someone who can give me the big picture based on extensive formal training, than from someone whose best support for their interpretation of scripture is “It’s in the Bible!”
Even better … a well-educated teacher who also walks the walk. Now that is someone I whose feet I would sit at.
There is a HUGE difference between the education required to teach: (a) Jesus loves you; and (b) what the Bible says/means about “the end of the world.”
Luke: The admonition to “disagree without being disagreeable,” at least in the Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement, originated with Pearl H. Welshimer, conservative Christian church preacher. The context was the division between the independents/conservatives and the Disciples of Christ as the schism intensified in the 1920s.
Jeff W., By the things you have said in your comments, it would never have occurred to me to think you were Jeff Walling, but thanks for telling me what you do for a living.
Do not forget that within the the church of Christ there are many excellent women who have written literature to enhance Bible knowledge. And many who would be superb speakers for ladies lectures , workshops and retreats.
Not that this thread needs any continuation, but I share the concern of some that Beth Moore at times tends to get a blank check from some Christians in Bible study. She has some helpful insights, she is thought-provoking, and she has a great skill in communicating ideas. Even more important, she has been a blessing to a good number of people in their spiritual walk.
But that said, I have encountered several who have learned from Ms. Moore without considering her teaching critically. That’s a shame - and it’s not Ms. Moore’s fault. She has every right and in fact every obligation to teach as well as she can. It’s just a little frustrating when some in her audience use little or no discernment in their attention to her instruction.
I might also add that this is likely as much a frustration to Ms. Moore. I know that I become exceedingly nervous when people listen to my preaching without critical discernment. We do the best we can, and then expect the audience to employ the Spirit to judge what has been shared.
Well, I have exhausted my two-cents. Blessings.
scott does that mean that we should use critical discernment while reading your comment?
So Mike, I’ve been awaiting your answers to the questions posed in your classroom a long time ago. You alluded that you would maybe come back to them. How about now?
Mike, you said that you know it will all work out in the end. I agree, but if there are serious times coming, wouldn’t we want to know?
Everything I have learned in the church about prophecy I defended for a long time, but I am convinced most of it was wrong. My original views don’t hold up in an in- depth study of prophecy.
That being said, the problem is most people who are pre-millenial believe the church will be raptured before the tribulation. I don’t see it that way. I think we are heading for a time of great persecution.
I used to be pretty much anti-Israel, but praise God, I have seen the light on this one. God still has plans for Israel. I have to say that about the only thing the U.S. has done right is support Israel, and we’ve done a poor job of that. Because Israel was hardened, I know Christ. How much greater is going to be the awakening of Israel to the realization that Jesus was the Christ!!
Good answer Bee Bee
We’re not going to agree on this one - it’s not worth pressing…
Donald,
this will probably never be read, but I have a real problem equating the modern day political nation of Israel to the Israel of the bible, even if I didn’t believe that the Church is the Remnant of Israel that Paul was talking about in Romans. This political entity of Israel is NOT a part of God’s salvation history, in my opinion.
Hi Jordan,
I understand what you mean in a way. I have been studying this now for well over 2 years. It started becasue I couldn’t believe what some people were saying about the end times approaching and about Israel. I certainly don’t have it figured out yet, but I understand enough to know I was wrong about a lot of things. In my attempt to refute I became somewhat of a convert.
It’s kind of like the Holy Spirit. When I started to really study about the Holy Spirit I ignorantly thought there was little information in the Bible about Him, but now I rarely read a chapter without seeing how important He is.
I think we have to consider our heritage and the reformation. I know we try to be like the 1st century church, but we are no doubt at least influenced by the people who pointed us there and there were a lot of flaws in their theology. Israel wasn’t even reborn as a nation until the 21st century. As a result I think it was very hard to explain certain prophecies/passages in the Bible. Matthew 24 and much of Revelation were interpreted to refer solely to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in the 1st century, because what else could it mean if there was no Israel nation?
Unfortunately, some of the reformers were very anti-semitic. Martin Luther was very much so. I’ve heard Hitler used some of his writings in the relentless persecution of the Jews. Invariably, some of this has seeped down to us. Look at the OT, Israel was often/usually nothing like what God planned for it to be, yet God did not give up on them. He used other nations to bring them back and I believe he’s going to do it again. Israel is every bit as much a Jewish nation as America is a Christian nation.
There is a teaching out there called replacement theology, which basically is the idea that we the church have now replaced Israel. I think we have been married/grafted in with Israel, but we haven’t replaced them. One of the most convincing scriptures that tells me God is not done with Israel is in Romans 11….. ” I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: ‘The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.’ As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
If you go back and look at the scripture about the deliverer coming from Zion, it seems to me Paul is using that scripture to talk about a future event. I mean Jesus already took away my sins, and besides when he came he came out of Bethlehem anyway. This to me is talking about when Jesus returns at the mount of Olives at his return. The Bible says they will look on him who they pierced and that Jesus will tell them he received those wounds in the house of his friends.
I hope I’ve peaked your interest.
Writing from Grant’s computer…. my understanding is that Beth Moore spends ALL, and I mean ALL her time studying the scriptures. She used to focus a lot of time on ministering to others, but realized her calling and gifts were in teaching the Word. She said it was painful to give up all the “social” things she enjoyed, but the hours a day she spends in the Word are so much more rewarding. Her study of scripture honestly rivals anyone I’ve ever heard teach. Is she perfect? No way… Is she highly gifted and inspired? Absolutely.
Amy Boone
Daniel,
Thanks for the reply.
2 things- you wrote “Israel is the Jewish nation as much as America is a Christian nation.” For me, that’s just the thing. I believe that God worked in the salvation of Israel until a time when he would bless the nations with salvation through Christ. Long to short, I don’t believe that America is a Christian entity, I believe the Church is the Christian entity on earth. I also don’t believe that Israel (current political nation) is a Jewish nation. There are more practicing Jews in New York City than in Israel. (Source, Jewish tour guide in Jerusalem) So does that mean that we should consider NYC a Jewish state as well? (That’s a stupid question so don’t bother with that one.) So I think that God doesn’t choose political nations for his salvation plan today like he did before Jesus.
Two- Read all of Romans 11. The point that Paul is making to Gentile Christians is this: Don’t get cocky and arrogant. God CUT OFF Israel from the tree and grafted you wild, undeserving people onto the tree, and he will cut you off if you don’t remain faithful-just like he did to Israel. Now, if Israel becomes faithful, God will reattach them to the tree. So what is the tree? The tree is not the nation of Israel. The tree existed before Israel was a branch of the tree. The tree is God’s salvation. The point that Paul makes is this, you are grafted onto salvation because of grace by faith in Jesus. The Jews will have their place back on the tree when they believe on Jesus and receive the grace God wants to pour on them. Paul’s point in this is to remind Gentile Christians that Jews can be saved in just the same way that Gentiles can be saved, and Gentiles can be cut off from God in just the same way that the Jews were cut off from God, so don’t be arrogant.
I think Beth Moore and her teachings are cast in no different light than any well-published teacher. There are a lot of folks in and around churches that are going to accept popular and well-taught things without digging a little deeper themselves. That’s the nature of mass communication among our society. We want and need to get the good words out there, so we do it in the best ways possible (hopefully under God’s guidance) and trust in faith to help guide those folks in addition to what’s taught. We can’t do anymore than that.
Even an incredibly well-trained scholar cannot do more than that. Just because you are professionally trained in reading Scripture and have researched extensively, does not mean that teacher would have it all so much closer to right either. The timeline of nature dictates that we learn as much as we can from our ancient documents, but we probably won’t ever have a universal understanding because of the subtleties of cultural shifts and language barriers. We do the best we can with what we can learn. . .but if God really needed only scholars to teach His word, I think He might make them easier to come by for local churches all around.
The real question on my mind in response to the idea that only trained scholars should teach Scripture is how would you staff a Children’s Ministry program in that context? Or Adult Education or Youth Ministry? My congregation is pretty short of this level of scholar you esteem so greatly. . .how will my kids learn the Bible? How will their parents learn the Bible? We have to trust God for teaching. Isn’t that part of the purpose of the Holy Spirit–to guide? Someone that can listen and follow like many a Bible teacher has done over the centuries makes a well-trained teacher in my book.
Jordan-
On a quck lunch break, so don’t have much time. I agree with you largely, though I still say the nation of Israel today is the same as the Israel of the Bible. They went through the same times in the OT as they are now, worshipping other Gods, not following the law, unable to sacrifice, etc. It seems to me that Paul is talking about them being in a hardened/blinded state.
What about verse 26 of Romans 11? Do you think this is talking about Jesus 1st coming or his second coming? I’m saying that the Bible points to not a few Jews being saved, not a few Jews believing in Jesus, but rather a larger group. It seems to me that Jesus will return to Israel and when they see his body pierced, they are going to recognize the Christ and a great number are going to be saved.
Donald,
Isn’t this fun? I guess my response to verse 26 and to the parousia is that when we see the risen One, every knee will bow on heaven and earth and under the earth. So in that light I don’t think that Jews are special because of that.
Love your spirit of discussion! It’s been fun!
Mike….Thank you for speaking to our Beth Moore group. You are so right on….(of course!!! )…I had told the group earlier about Rick Atchley’s 3 lessons on the subject at the September ACU lectureship….Rick says that most of us are not historic pre-millennialists, or A-millennialists (I am), or post millennialists, or dispensational pre-millennialists,… we are pan millennialists. When the Lord comes back, it will all pan out. None of us are going to say when the Lord returns, “This is not how I had it figured out; therefore, I am a little upset about this.” Rick says that this is not fighting ground.
I agree with you that it does make a difference how we approach this…..because of the political discisions made based on the relatively new view that Darby introduced.
Beth Moore did a beautiful job in her material….and never pressed her views….She made sure that the main idea was that God wants us to have integrity as we live in our Babylon so we can be trusted with responsibility. He knows what will be…just as intricately as He knows what has been. The point of our being here is for God to use us for His greatness….
Gayla Pope
I just came back to the church. I left because of all the legalism that the Churchs now put into their services. We came home to a a down to earth church and a love of God. I have learned when people start saying things and quoting in the Bible I always ask show me. I have studied Beth Moore’s studies and yes I do like her and I always look up the passages and always ask questions. I have learned if it can not be shown to me in the Bible then do not quote it. Don’t twist the passage into what you want it to say, let it say what it should say and that is the word of God. So you may not like Beth Moore, that is fine. Just remember if you want to help people find God, you must help other people into the kingdom of God through the door. You want to be like a shepherd and help others. I think that is what Beth Moore is doing, being a sheperd.
I have been thru the second class of Daniel, and in the video she reads an exerpt of something written by Ray Stedman.
there was a bit of distraction so I did not catch the title of the work,
but it was in relation to Nebuchadnezzar’s dream… Anyone know the work? several of our ladies were interested in this.
Beth is inspiring, passionate, and worthy of sharing her gift of teaching the Word. SO WHAT if she doesn’t have a “FORMAL” theological education, she ireaches, inspires, and teaches REAL PEOPLE.
In the second lesson of the Daniel study, Beth Moore read an excerpt from a 1969 sermon by Ray Stedman entitled “The Last Act” which contained so many inaccuracies about American and European history I was embarrassed for my church showing it. You can find this sermon on the internet if you google it.
At one point Stedman claims that because German leaders are called “Kaisers,” a generic term for dictator based on the word “Caeser” that came into use hundreds of years after the fall of the Roman Empire, that this is evidence that the Roman Empire was the foundation for the government of Germany! He also said the USA’s government was based upon Rome’s. That’s crazy. Our form of republicanism came out of the Renaissance and the writings of Montesqueue (sp?), not to mention substantial influences like the Magna Carta from Great Britain. He says our Senate was “copied directly from the Roman Senate” which is simply untrue. There’s a lot more, but I don’t want to make this post too long.
The only reason for anyone to make these ridiculous assertions is that Daniel’s interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream gives four empires and dispensational premillennialism says we have to have a fifth one that is still in the future. These four kingdoms have all been identified in history, but for the disp. prem. view to be true, there has to be some future kingdom 2,000 years or more from now and it has to fit into the prophecy somewhere, so it has to be forced into the prophecy about the fourth kingdom, the Roman Empire. In reading this, Beth Moore is setting us up for later lessons, beginning in Daniel 9, where she’s going to teach that there’s a 2,000 years or more gap in time right toward the end of Daniel’s seventy weeks. How come nowhere else in Scripture does God simply insert years and years and years rendering the communication of the stated time meaningless? How were the readers of Daniel’s day supposed to know about this supposed 2,000 year gap since it not even remotely mentioned anywhere in the Bible. Moore is teaching dispensational premillennialism rather than historic premillennialism which is the traditional view, but must less widely known or taught since dispensationalism caught on circa 1830. It is clear from this material and from her uninformed comments regarding the amillennial and postmillennial positions that she hasn’t done her homework on this one.
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