I read yesterday morning that Mark McGuire isn’t likely to make it into the Hall of Fame — at least not on this round. I understand the frustration of the sports writers: long-time records have been broken by people who were cheating.
The difficult part is this: how do we know exactly who HAS and who HAS NOT been getting juiced? Is body mass the only indication?
The McGuire/Sosa year was such a magical one for baseball fans. Little did we know (at least for sure) at the time that it was a question of whose steroids were better.
On one hand, how do you keep out someone with almost 600 home runs who has the highest home run ratio in history (a home run every 10.61 at bats); yet on the other hand, how do you allow someone in who knowingly broke the rules?
Glad I’m not having to vote. As a Cardinals fan, it would be tough.
What do you think?
i think this comment you made says why he should not go in: how do you allow someone in who knowingly broke the rules?
pete rose is not going in because he knowingly did something against the rules. i feel the same about the player who is very close to breaking the homerun record.
just my opinion though, i don’t have a vote, but if i did, i know how i would vote.
I vote him in. It’s the Hall of Famous; not the Hall of Sunday School. McGwire is famous for 98% right matters.
It is surely easy to understand why anyone would consider the opposite. Thus, my statements are careful. My rationale is the the entire Hall is decked with sinners. Jesus didn’t pitch in the majors. Therefore, let him who is without sin throw out the first pitch.
The reason I vote him in is because I like him, I like many things about him and his accomplishments, and he is a Cardinal. I vote him in because I favor him.
My hopes are God will have the same bias toward me when my name comes up for consideration in The Hall.
What Terry Rush said.
Of course I’d also vote for Willie McGee, so what do I know?
Either the writers have to vote in those who are deserving based on their stats or they can’t vote for anyone associated with the steroids era. If you vote down McGwire based solely upon the thinking that he cheated then you can’t vote in Bonds, who should be a lock, and you can’t vote in Roger Clemens or anyone else. How do you know who was cheating and who was not?
If you just take on-the-field production, I guess McGwire is a Hall of Famer. I am not a Cardinals or Athletics fan so I don’t view him with the bias that some of you do. He was a good player. I don’t know if I would call him great, though. Personally, I would rather have a guy like Palmeiro playing first. He didn’t hit the tape measure shots that McGwire did but he still hit for power. He hit for average. And he was a perennial Gold Glove award winner. McGwire excelled in one area: power. I don’t know if his whole body of work is good enough. But, the Baseball Hall of Fame has turned into the Baseball Hall of Good with some of the guys they have let in recently. So, with that I guess McGwire should be in.
One other thing: why is there this thought out there seemingly that all of the steroids have been cleaned up? Who is to say that they are still not out there? If you have enough money and want to win badly enough, you can pay money to take something that the tests won’t detect. I think it is shortsighted of us to think that the game is clean today. And that is not just baseball, either, but other sports as well.
I believe that Pete Rose is a case in point. If McGuire would make a heartfelt statement to the public, he has a chance to get in the Hall. If he doesn’t, I don’t think he will get in. His testimony in Congress will haunt him until he does the right thing.
I agree with you, though, on the part about who has and hasn’t used steriods–how do you you know and how do you decide.
The part that troubles me most is the current image that college and professional athletes present to those who are younger as well as adults who idolize them.
Helps you to understand Paul’s statement, 1Cor. 1:26-31:
Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”
Peace.
I think McGwire deserves the Hall of Fame (and that 70-homer year was magical at the time). But putting him in on the first ballot with Gwynn and Ripken would be unfair to them. It would detract attention (well, I guess it already has) from a couple of obvious choices who as far as I know were choir boys all those years — and never juiced.
So, make McGwire wait a year or two. And if you want to let Rose in with McGwire, that’s fine too. Hey, add Shoeless Joe Jackson that same year as well.
1998 was indeed a magical year. I remember following the HR race all season, glad to see two “class acts” graciously sharing the spotlight. After the strike a few years earlier, McGwire and Sosa were baseball’s “Messiah” figures (don’t read too much into that statement…).
When it became clear that both had likely been on steroids throughout that season and through much of their careers, I was devastated. The wide-eyed, baseball card-collecting kid in me diminished a little bit. I began to see baseball (and all professional sports, really) for what it had become — a money-hungry, corrupt business. More recent events in MLB have simply reinforced this reality, unfortunately.
So McGwire is guilty of much more than just discrediting himself and his records. He played a prominent role in kicking off what will eventually be the demise of Major League Baseball. He and Sosa briefly lifted the spirits of jaded baseball fans everywhere, but then collectively knifed them and turned the dagger a few times. The end result was worse than before.
That said, no Hall for Big Mac.
Football commentator and former ‘Bama coach Bill Curry made some sane comments on ESPN Radio this morning - something to the effect of… in an alpha male dominated sports world we expect our athletes/heroes to be one thing - stand-up and honest. Maybe Mark just got some really bad advice - but he was neither in front of Congress. That will keep him out for awhile at least. Would I vote him in? Yes, if he came clean (no pun intended) and coming clean didn’t involve a book deal.
Keep him OUT! He cheated, and he knew he was cheating. It is not so much the damage that he did to his own body that is the problem. That is his choice and he can live with the physical consequences when they arrive. (And they will come, eventually). the bigger problem is the fact that others were then forced to do the same thing in an effort to keep up. That is the bigger damage.
What scares me even more is that if our Halls of Fame are being turned into Halls of Famous, then it appears that T.O. will make the football hall of fame, and Rodman will make the basketball hall of fame. We should never reward cheating,and putting him in does just that.
Yeah, Big Mac should come out and make some apologies, and then do some public service ads warning of the dangers of cheating with steroids.
I bet he’d make a great spokesman for both Pro-Activ (When roid’s gave me severe adult acne, Pro-Activ was strong enough to handle it!)
I wonder if Pete Rose is betting on Mac to get in? They both belong.
Here’s what I wonder about: How far are we allowed to alter our bodies before it’s wrong? Tiger Woods had lasik eye surgery, someone else took steroids, and some people take Prozac. I myself am drinking coffee right now to enhance my performance in my morning classroom. So, for me, the most interesting issue is what kind of ethical tools do we develop to map the interface between the biological and the technological in regard to human performance.
Someone can probably comment on this better than myself because I did not see the whole story, but on one sports show they seemed to be trying to pinpoint when McGuire started really using steroids. It was amazing the difference in his stats before and after. He goes year after year with not even a 50 homerun year and then for the last few years of his career his numbers go through the roof. That told me that the steriods are wrong for reasons other than the potential harm they do to the body. They make someone into something they are not, a clean great baseball player. I am not a big baseball fan, but the year Sosa and McGuire were chasing each other for the record was magical and with the revelation of steroids it messed up the whole thing. I could not in good conscience vote McGuire in. I could come closer to voting for Rose than McGuire. As sorry as a person Rose was what he did on the baseball field is beyond dispute which is more than can be said about McGuire. I don’t know why when the subject of baseball comes I always have this evil urge to express my undying love for the Yankees. I guess it is because I still remember how it made Cardnial fans react when I was a kid. All kidding aside. If someone else saw the show I referenced I would love to her more about it. I wish I could have seen the whole show.
Being a coach, I was asked by my students, “Why not do anything that will make me better?” I always said there is a life out there that will not include sports. It is being there for your loved ones. We know these things are hard on the heart and other parts of the body. I want you to enjoy yourself playing the sport, but I want you to embrace life. Of course I kept them working out in the weight room and running. But I hope they learned other things from being in sports and not cheating is a biggy
I’ll just stick with the Wizard of Oz as my all time favorite Cardinal, because I don’t know what to do with McGwire.
I don’t know as much about baseball as 99% of you but I am going to have to disagree with Terry. I don’t see how you can let the guy in. Hall of Fame is not about grace - it is about beating the rest of the guys when the playing field was even. You stand out on your own hard work.
The “good guy” in the major league is then getting cheated because he did the right thing and didn’t break the rules. It seems totally unfair to me to favor the guy who got there by breaking the rules. Ben Johnson of Canada broke the 100m world record sometime back but he was on steroids. He became a footnote in history at the bottom of the records page.
If you let him in, take out the rule and open up the flood gates for these drugs to major league players. That would at least give the honest guy a chance.
Not only should Big Mac get in but steroids should be allowed in little league as well. That way when a belligerent parent harasses a player the kid can kick some butt.
Let Mac in. Steroids were not banned substances by MLB when he played, which means he didn’t break the rules. Besides, there is so much more to even hitting a baseball than just brute strength. Bat speed is one thing (brute strength), but the bat must strike the ball at the proper angle at the proper place on the bat at the exact point in the strike zone for the ball to go out. If any of the above do not happen exactly, then several things happen other than a home run; namely a strike, a grounder, a foul ball, a pop fly, or an “up the smokestack” infield fly. Ted Williams was right, “The hardest thing to do in all of sports is to hit a pitched baseball.” Mac was very good at hitting the baseball, even before he bulked up.
I want Pete Rose in first. Big Mac comes in later. Bobby’s right - let Shoeless Joe in, too!
It’s a game. These guys were better than most at playing the game.
Ed,
Steroids may not have been banned by MLB when McGwire used them, but they were still illegal, and he knew better. You’re right in saying that taking steroids doesn’t just turn a regular guy into a major league superstar, but they can turn a major league star into something out of this world.
All McGwire had going for him as far as HOF credentials was his HR totals and the mystique of the magical ‘98 season. Those were brought about (or at least greatly inflated) by the steroids.
Big Mac has no place in the Hall of Fame. More like the Hall of SHAME.
As a Cubs fan, I remember the Sosa/McGwire year very well. In fact, my husband & I had free tickets to a Cards game, so we made the drive down while I was a few months pregnant & feeling very nauseous. So when McGwire hit HR #66 or 67 (whatever) I was in the back of the stadium getting some fresh air. I really didn’t want to see it anyway. In fact, just saying the name Mark McGwire makes me a little nauseous even now……….I gotta go!
Tough call!
Sosa and Mac saved baseball–the game is now more profitable than its ever been and more folks are coming to the park than ever. I remember being in Mexico with my wife, yet feeling like I had to get to a TV because Mac was about to break the record. He seemed like a good guy until he said, “I’m not here to talk about the past.” That sealed his fate. He will forever be known as a cheater.
I think he should go in the Hall, as should Palmiero, Bonds, Rose and others. Someone hit those home runs. They counted in the game and the Elias Sports Bureau hasn’t yet removed them. It should be noted next to their names though, that they–whoever we can prove, and not just suspect–had been proven to used illegal drugs that aided their performance.
Congress to McGwire: Did you use steroids?
McGwire to Congress: “I’m not here to discuss the past.”
The opportunity to issue an unequivocal denial was also his opportunity to get into the Hall. I think most voters would be giving him the benefit of the doubt had he said, flat-out: “No!” There would still be some doubt, of course, but a sworn “No” to Congress would have to be respected without rock-solid proof that he was juiced, not some statistical analysis saying that his increased performance was “consistent with” steroid use. Since McGwire wasn’t playing at that point, such proof never would have come in the form of a Palmeiro-style drug test. Instead, it would have had to come from a teamate willing to corroborate what Canseco has said. To date, no teammate has come forward to supply that corroboration. Unfortunately, McGwire’s appearance before Congress is corroboration enough. While McGwire didn’t want to discuss the past, his statement assured that Hall voters would.
When Mark still refuses to be up front and totally 100% honest, even when under oath, I feel he should not be in.
Quite frankly, I think they should just close the record books as of 2000 and allow any substance a player wants to use to use it. Who really cares. As was mentioned, we don’t really know who did what or how much so let’s just level the entire playing field and allow everyone to use whatever they want. After several players die from the stuff, maybe then the usage will go down.
Either do that or have drug testing before each game and if you are caught you are banned from the sport for life for the first offense and you must pay back your entire contract.
Both will never happen but it’s a nice thought.
Keep the “bum” out for a while. Make him “sweat it out” for a few years….
Gaylord Perry didn’t make it in on his first few votes. Make McGuire either confess, or make him Pete Rose’s best friend!!
I know; I’ve been there for a while…
Shoeless Joe
Richard - while it wasn’t “illegal” at the time - taking steroids was and is cheating. Coffee or eye surgery is neither. Slammin’ Sammy probably took something illegal, plus, he got caught with a corked bat. Good food for thought though.
I would LIKE to see McGwire in the hall. I was a big fan when he was active. I loved what he did for the game in the big season. I even think he’s a pretty good guy.
The problem is, there are rules for Hall induction. And among those rules are the individual’s character and what he has done for the game. McGwire hurt the game. He enhanced his performance and, while it wasn’t illegal, it was certainly unethical. He didn’t lie to Congress, but he didn’t realllly tell the truth either, did he? Maybe he didn’t do anything that Sosa and who-knows-who-else was doing at the same time. But I don’t want to see his plaque up next to Ruth’s and Aaron’s and I CERTAINLY don’t want to see him share a podium with Gwynn and Ripken.
Until they change the rules, Big Mac doesn’t get the call.
What do I think? How many people are in the Hall of Fame already who also knowing broke the rules? You can juice all you want to, but you still have to be able to get the bat on the ball. I do believe that steroids is illegal, immoral, and cheating…but I don’t believe that steroids makes you a great player. With that in mind, Big Mac was a great player, whether or not he was on steroids.
Letting known steroid users into the Hall of Fame cheapens the Hall of Fame. Their numbers, which many are saying is why they should be in, are not real numbers. Many of their HRs would have been pop-outs were it not for the steroids. Many of their line-drives into the gap possibly could have been run down. Many of their stolen bases would have been pickoffs. The point is THEY ARE NOT GENUINE NUMBERS! They cheated and “unleveled” the playing field. I say absolutely do not let McGuire in, ever.
If you look at McGwire’s career stats BEFORE the roid years (let’s be generous and say that he didn’t start back with Canseco, but when in 98 when his HR totals really spiked), he had 389 HRs and a .260 average. Couple that with only 1201 career hits and fewer than 1000 RBI and combine that with the fact that he was never more than an average fielder, and you have a good career, but nothing close to a HOF career.
Steroids don’t give you the ability to hit a major league fastball. But if you already have that ability, steroids give you the ability to hit it a lot farther than you did before.
Was Big Mac a big league talent w/o steroids? Absolutely. Did he produce HOF-worthy numbers without them? Absolutely not.
Oops, left this out…
You can argue that whether a player does steroids or not shouldn’t keep him out of the Hall, but you can’t argue that without the steroids, McGwire was HOF caliber. It simply isn’t true.
LET HIM IN.
If you look at his baseball cards from 1984 to 2001, you will see the gradual growth in McGwire. I will tell you in that span of time I have put on over 120 pounds and no one accused me of doing steroids. Tell the truth, my head size has increased as well.
He has ALWAYS been a homerun hitter. In 1987 he hit 49 homeruns, most by a rookie. He also cut that season short with 3 games remaining to witness the birth of his son Matthew. Not that his bat was his crutch, he had some pretty good defense too.
He has had several injury plagued season and hit just a mere 20-35 homeruns per season during those times.
I also think a player should get credit for getting better, he could have actually learned how to hit the ball further more consistently over the course of his 14 years in the majors. He was always highlighted to break Maris homerun record before 1998 and the national league provided that avenue.
He did admit to taking Andro when confronted about it (a non banned substance at the time) and his testimony was not his shinning moment before congress.
Since he was and is my boyhood hero, it is tough for me to hear about his reputation being tarnished. I know that no drug test he took while playing for 14 seasons ever came back positive.
He should be in the Hall because of his accomplishments on the field. He never corked his bat, steroids didn’t make him hit the ball and steroids didn’t factor in to the class he had while playing in that magical 1998 season.
My question is how could someone under that much of a public eye with constant press and inquiry surrounding him at all times in 1998, not ever have a positive test for steroids?
At this point in time, I will let his Yes be Yes and No be No.
I’ll hang up and listen
Yes to Mac, he hit 48 HRs as a lean mean rookie in the very very beginning of the “live ball” aka “Juiced” era of baseball before he probably started ingesting the roids.
No to Sammy Sosa. His ability and skill in baseball was only due to muscling up with roids. And he corked his bat.
James, the question still remains, why, under oath, did he refuse to give a resounding “NO!” when asked if ever took them? It’s sorta like OJ. If he was so innocent, why did he run? If Mark was just a good ballplayer, why not pound your fist on the table, point at the Senator and say “No. I NEVER took performance enhancing drugs!” ??
No Way. Mac’s a cheater. He should, at the least, have told the truth at the Congressional hearing. Don’t sob, deny it, and then try and get elected to the Hall of Fame.
Put him in the Cheater’s wing with Barry Lotion Bonds, Sammy Cork my bat Sosa, and Pete “hussle your money” Rose.
It’s an honor to be in The Hall. And it’s more than mere numbers. The Juiced Big Mac doesn’t deserve to be in the Hall. Niether does Gaylord for that matter either.
I really wonder if Mac and Sosa “saved baseball.”
Sure, they may have helped it a little, but guys like Joe Mauer, Francisco Liriano, Ryan Howard…these guys come along and they play the game with passion (and excellence), and they do it the right way. Homeruns are overrated, anyway.
Good night, of course he should go in and on the first ballot at that. PC has so taken over ESPN and SI that were the Babe and Cobb on the ballot today they would not make it - too many hot dogs (the food police) and Cobb went in spikes high and snarled at reporters. So what? Are you going to start going through Cooperstown and jerking out guys who threw the spitter too? Good grief!
With the notable exception of Gaylord Perry, most pitchers in the Hall who relied on the spitball to win games did so legally, under the rules of Major League Baseball.
I’m a baseball fan by marriage, so I am not as familiar with the history and records as many of you. However, rewarding someone for accomplishments that they did not come by naturally seems wrong. It would be like awarding a scholarship to a student who only made the grades because they cheated. It’s not based on true talents and gifts and the hard work it takes to develop even natural abilities. To be honored in the Hall of Fame, I think you should have had to earn your recognition by being skilled in your own right. If they did not consider their performance without intervention to be good enough, thinking they would only be impressive with steroids, then we should all assume the same…that they would not have been as good without them. Maybe they would have. We’ll just never know. They missed their chance, if you ask me.
Although he appears to have done something illegal, McGwire did nothing against the rules of baseball. Steroids were not against the rules of baseball until after he retired. According to the rules of baseball, he deserves to get in (although he never will). Gaylord Perry is known to have actually cheated when he pitched. He scuffed up the balls which was and is illegal according to the rules of baseball; yet still he is in the Hall of Fame. McGwire took Andro and who knows what else because MLB said he could. He has done nothing to warrant him missing out of the Hall, according to strict baseball standards. I just hope my children never view him as a role model (or Perry, or Ty Cobb, etc.)
By the way, when will the 350 lb. behemoths in the NFL come under the same scrutiny as the three people in baseball who dared break a hallowed record?
This is a tough one. I would love to believe in the integrity of the game but I’m a firm believer that baseball looked the other way so that people would come back to the ballpark. So should he be punished for using steroids. Yes, but then there goes Koufax and Gipson because the mound was higher, there goes Gagne because he will never be the same or even stay healthy now that he’s off the juice…oh and then there is the whole Rose thing where do we draw the line on cheating….I draw it at Barry Bond’s but then again who is to blame, Barry or his knucklehead dad Bobby who created the monster in the first place….But Mark we got to let him in but then there is your typical East Coast bias because didn’t he go to USC and nobody would want a So. Cal. guy…Wait who would have ever heard of John Thompson if it wasnt for cable television….UCLA is #1.
One of the worst agruments in the world… for all time…
“Well Mr. X did it… and you didn’t punish him.”
It doesn’t work with my 7 yr old… and it doesn’t work for The Hall. Just because Gaylord and others are in The Hall, that doesn’t make it right. I’m not throwing Gaylord out of The Hall… but I’m not voting him in either.
An excess of hot dogs and snarling at reporters are not moral issues. They may lead to high cholesterol and bad press… but they’re not wrong… or more importantly… illegal.
Cheaters shouldn’t be rewarded.
not tough for me….young boy watches some player break the rules..player is admired by all for many years and gets in hall of fame…umm….sports seems to mess with minds sometimes…honor is in doing the right thing..
oh and Clint..you always crack me up…we miss you…
I’m torn. The summer of ‘98, a friend of mine and I took our boys to Shea for a double header. Mets vs. Cardinals. Late afternoon in Queens, 10,000 people had made it to the stadium . . . for batting practice. Even the crustiest New Yorkers were acting like kids. Later that evening McQuire hit homerun #50, and in his first at bat of the second game, 51. Things like that add up to “fame.”
But when I compare the lean face on McQuire’s rookie card to that bloated look of the record years, well, it’s just not right. I don’t know how that should be handled.
Victor,
Hot dogs and high spikes = steroid use? Please.
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