There is one week a year when Abilene is — and please, don’t laugh — actually quite beautiful. Not Malibu. Not Estes Park. Not Vermont. But beautiful nevertheless. This is that week. My spirits are high. If it were thirty degrees cooler (high of 89 today), I’d be soaring.
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Is it possible to have love without freedom? I think so much hangs on that question.
Mike, here in Ohio it is 30 degrees cooler. My kids called from Abilene yesterday to “inform” me of the great weather in Abilene, and to rub it in. I called them jerks, lovingly of course. Enjoy it while you have it.
STL reporting 74 degrees. 73 factoring in the wind chill.
That’s an interesting question. I would say that in human relationships mature love is not controlling of the other person. And that love is a gift which requires a lot of trust and vulnerability.
Spiritually, God’s great love for us includes his giving us a free will. And Christ frees us from the burdensome law and blood sacrifice requirements that Israel was bound by.
Sin is definitely bondage.
So, yeah, I guess love and freedom go hand in hand.
73 and sunny in Cullman.
What’s love got to do with it? Oh, you were being serious…
Good golfing weather, right Mike.
Mike,
I’ve been to Malibu and was raised in the Northeast, and I love Abilene, its beauty that is. It’s all different. And psychologists have verified this: Geography is uncorrelated with happiness levels. You can be depressed in paradise, so moving is very poor therapy.
About love. Just to take a different kind of cut at your question. The parent-child bond is the strongest form of love we know. Yet, the “decisional love model” so often spoken of by preachers fails to capture this love. True, a form of “love” can be the product of a choice, and that truth needs to be spoken. But love is more instinctive. I doubt you choose, of your own free will, to love Diane, I didn’t choose to love Jana. In many ways, love chooses us and restricts our freedom. Love compels.
64 and sunny here in Grand Rapids, MI. Absolutely gorgeous. But, you can take comfort in the fact that it won’t last — tomorrows forecast says in the 40’s and rainy.
Think magnet
Okay, I can tell I’m gonna be thinking about this question all day. I promise not to post every time a thought pops into my head!
I like what Richard says about how love chooses us and restricts our freedom.
It’s really a mystery how love works. It’s like we’re free to choose to be bound to another.
Maybe the key is in who is doing the binding. I bind myself to Christ out of my love for him and by choosing to follow him. I am bound to John out of my love for him and my marriage vows. I wasn’t strong-armed into either of these relationships. I was (am) compelled, to use Richard’s word.
Both of these relationships in turn still offer me great freedom to be myself, develop, and use my gifts. And I guess I could abuse that freedom in selfish ways. But I know in both cases the love would still be there in the end if I were to be so unwise and foolish. And that fact alone, knowing how much I am loved, is what compels me to love deeply and bind myself.
My first thought on pondering your question brought me back to my wedding ceremony. We said our own vows, and G started out by saying “I choose you”. On so many relational levels, it’s nice to be chosen, isn’t it!
qb’s not sure what you’re getting at with your question, Mike. Can you unpack it a bit? As it’s phrased now (pithily), it doesn’t have any context around it.
qb
Florida is off the charts beautiful. We have pretty much 70’s with 50’s at night until next May. I remember Tennessee being just how you described, beautiful about two or three weeks of the year, but there were many weeks when the sun was never seen.
I think Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn’s “The Gulag Archipelago” and Viktor Frankl’s “Man’s Search for Meaning” speak to your love without freedom question.
I also really appreciate the story of Charlie Plumb, a naval fighter pilot who was shot down and spent 2103 days in a prisoner of war camp during Vietnam. Some of his story can be found here:
http://tinyurl.com/y4pzfh
Peace.
Here in Birmingham UK it is in the mid 40’s and has been for weeks now. I am just glad it stopped raining. Beautiful when the sun is out.
The leaves here in Central Arkansas right now are gorgeous. Some of them are even bright red — I’ve never seen that before. When the trees changed colors where we used to live near Houston, we just thought the Exxon fumes were killing them.
About your question: Although I’m not free to spend Chad’s entire paycheck at Target, I still love Target. So yes.
You can’t control an independent heart
Can’t tear the one you love apart
Forever conditioned to believe that we can’t live
We can’t live here and be happy with less
So many riches, so many souls
Everything we see we want to possess
If you need somebody, call my name
If you want someone, you can do the same
If you want to keep something precious
You got to lock it up and throw away the key
If you want to hold onto your possession
Don’t even think about me
If you love somebody, set them free
- Sting
This is how I read the question: in order to love someone, do you have to allow them freedom?
In that sense, I think the answer is yes. Even with children, my ultimate goal is for them to be able to function freely, without my influence. Limitations I place on them are only temporary - my ultimate goal is to make them free.
On a more theological level, this is why I struggle with Calvinism. I just can’t buy into the idea that God doesn’t allow us choice - to follow him or to reject him.
____________
I’m basically a summer guy. I like the long hours of daylight and the absence of cold weather. My mood shifts significantly as we begin to lose daylight and the temperature drops. But this time of year IS beautiful…
Here in Eagle River, Alaska, this morning it was also beautiful… 2 below zero with six inches of snow on the ground and the sun glaring off snow capped peaks as I look out my back window. I am glad it’s nice there in Abilene, too. My son (who is a high school senior) flew out yesterday, arrived in Dallas last night, and will be driving to ACU today for ‘Purple Friday’ on November 10. I want him to be impressed and hope he chooses to go to ACU.
As to your question concerning love and freedom, I am convinced they go hand in hand. I can’t imagine how you could have one without the other. God bless. Mark
Well Mike that is a tough question.
Leo F. Buscaglia once wrote,
“A loving relationship is one in which the loved one is free to be himself — to laugh with me, but never at me; to cry with me, but never because of me; to love life, to love himself, to love being loved. Such a relationship is based upon freedom and can never grow in a jealous heart.”
Freedom and Freewill are the move loving things that you can give to a person and likewise to yourself. Freedom and love I believe go hand and hand, however love mirrors many things that freedom does not.
I leave this one in the hands of someone who said it better then I could
“Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes.” -Gandhi
What I know about Abeline..
You are there
ACU is there
My kids graduated there
The women there don’t treat you mean, in Abeline
Ah…beautiful Lousiana. If you fancy crooked politicians, mosquitoes even in November, hot and sticky, cold and wet, high crime and low wages, this is the place for you! What one will do for grandkids!
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Yes, freedom and love are inseperable; but then it is love that makes me a willing love slave to Jesus. I suppose freedom is to love as context is to truth.
Great post as usual.
Grace and peace,
Royce Ogle
Love often requires me to give up freedom.
Is freedom possible without love?
i would say that it would be impossible to have love with freedom, however freedom without love is bondage. but what do i know.
Listers,
Kindly read carefully the statements above by Royce Ogle on Louisiana. In the interest of upholding truth and exposing error, believe him and do not move to this state because Louisiana is indeed paradise—”Sportsman’s Paradise” as every license plate here proclaims. We invite you to come down here, tourism being our Number One industry, and spend your money, but please do not consider staying permanently. Paradise is wonderful. Royce and I do not want to share it with anyone.
Although I have much to learn, dismissing Malibu is easy. There are two things which most people do not like. One is taxes, and the other is earthquakes. If you love those things, you love California.
For all our admirable and intelligent friends in Abilene, which Royce cannot spell, your situation is much more competitive with paradise. You seldom have earthquakes, and Texas has a low sales tax and no state income tax even if the property taxes are confiscatory. But paramount is that I look out my office windows and all I can see is GREEN: green trees taller than any in Texas reaching up to the sky and green grass which grows naturally without effluents. Eat your hearts out.
Our politicians are not “crooked”; what they are is ENTERTAINING. How can the rest of y’all bear to live in places so bland and boring as to call their parishes counties, like the rest of the world. Paul urged to “come ye out from among them and be ye separate,” and in Louisiana that’s what we have done. In every way, we are different. We are protected from lawyers in the 49 common law states by coming out and being separate as the one code law state. We even have a $75K homestead exemption (highest in the nation), which means that most of us pay no property taxes at all.
Yet, as wonderful as Louisiana, or paradise, already is, the situation is now going to get even better, especially in comparison with Texas. In explanation, y’all are welcome to read my post at http://larryjamesurbandaily.blogspot.com/2006/10/voting-and-texas-governors-race.html#comments .
Don’t mess with “beautiful Louisiana.”
Taxes? Every state has some form of taxes - hidden or very obvious.
Earthquakes? When was the last time you heard of one in California? Inversely, when was the last time you heard of a tornado in Texas? [last Spring - EVERY Spring as a matter of fact]
When was the last time you heard of an ice storm in California? Does anyone from Michigan, Wyoming, New York et al recall the past upteem years’ ice storms and white out snow storms?
In case you have any doubt, California is my state. I’m just temporarily set down in Texas, beautiful (sic) Abilene, Texas.
Oh, btw -
“Is it possible to have love without freedom?”
Not if it is actually a healthy love.
“…where the Spirit of the LORD is, there is Freedom!”
And we all know God is love!
Kathy: What is impossible is to have California without taxes and earthquakes. If you cannot be in paradise, which is Louisiana, count your blessings that at least you are in beautiful, low-tax, tremor-free Abilene.
Don’t get me wrong. I love Abilene- been here 20 years, now. But beautiful? Give Dickie back the key to where we keep the “emblems” or perhaps we should get a fridge…
As for me, I’m marking time until I can find my way into the mountains- or at least the ranch on Saturday. I hope Diane and Chris can come.
Abilene is beautiful because my precious children are there.
David Ramsey says: “But paramount is that I look out my office windows and all I can see is GREEN: green trees taller than any in Texas reaching up to the sky and green grass which grows naturally without effluents.”
Dear friend, I reply, I don’t want to look out the window and see the trees. They are in the way. They are between me and the sky. I want to see blue out the window, not green. If there is a nice large tree about a hundred yards away, peace upon it. If it is standing over my house like a deranged Ent, eww! I am exceedingly fond of twisted, humble, not-higher-than-my-house mesquite trees which provide visual entertainment, shade to sit or stand under, and exercise (picking up bean pods) but pose no danger to my house or my electric lines. There was a magnificent 80-foot elm above my back deck in Memphis, and sitting on the deck and leaning back to look up into it was like looking into a city. But I feared it nonetheless. And I could not see the sky.
When you love both people in a failed marriage, and you’ve actually could view everyday for a year how that marriage operated, you do understand that freedom has to be a part of the mix. When every thought has to conform to what one partner thinks and every thought of one partner is deemed stupid and not up to snuff. It is very painful to watch. Strange that some got this turned around. Marriage counseling could of helped, but the one who thought they had it all right would not go. Went to a joint session a few times, but the counselor needed them seprately and the one wouldn’t go- no need they thought.
Thanks for the thoughts, Dave, but I’ll take an earthquake every 15-20 years to a yearly tornado, white out snow storm, or ice storm anytime.
As for Louisiana - pretty state, just to dern humid for this gal. LOL
Which leaves us with ?? waiting for Paradise upon our LORD’s return. Yeah!!!
It seems to me…
The one thing God cannot do is make me love Him.
Based on that assumption, I say No! There cannot be love without freedom.
Incidently, that is why (I believe) my choice to love touches Him.
Great question about love and freedom.
I think some of the tension in answering this question, at least for us, is the wrapped up in the fact that we are Americans and our idea of freedom has powerfully impacted everything about the way we think. Certainly there is a sense in which love frees us. But is the freedom that love offers the same freedom we talk about in reference to our nation’s history–namely, the freedoms of “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”? Of is the freedom of true love, God’s love, something different?
I think we have to conclude that the freedom we find in love must be something different. As others have already pointed out, the freedom God offers me is not a freedom to choose whatever I want. In that sense, I’m not free at all. I have obligated myself to his will and surrendered my freedom. And yet, scripture says that I am no longer in bondage to sin. I am free, but not free to do anything.
Paul wrestles with this very issue through the first several chapters of Romans in reference to the law and its place in our loves. It’s funny–the law both frees us and binds us. And maybe (as Amy said) that’s the truth of love. There can be no real love without both freedom and bondage. We must be free to choose it and free to obligate ourselves to it and free to accept it, but having accepted love we have accepted an obligation and must then fulfill the requirements of love, or it withers and dies.
As I said, great question. I’m afraid I’m going to be thinking about this all day!
Carisse,
My dear friend, your command of the English language to express yourself is amazing.
I never thought of my draping trees at another house as deranged ENTs, but now I will have to entertain that possibility. Okay, I have entertained it and will now go out and water my two saplings who may someday grow into draping trees. : )
Again, let me say that no one chooses to love. We don’t choose to love God. You can choose to OBEY God, but that is different from loving Him. So, God doesn’t present us with love ultimatums: Make a choice! Love me! Rather, God is like a lover. He tries to woo us, to capture our hearts. And, once your heart is captured, it’s not a choice you made. Falling in love occurs deeper, below the machinery of choice. You just find, over time, that you love God. Passionately. Again, you didn’t choose love. It chose you.
Richard -
I think I disagree with you. Have you read C. S. Lewis’s book on The Four Loves? Our limitation in English is that we work with one word: love. But the Greek language had more options available.
And the greatest concept, the cross-shaped description of Christian living, is agape. And it is, in face, commanded. Often. Even love for enemies.
Can romantic feelings be commanded? No. You hardly choose them.
But we choose daily whether or not we will walk in agape love.
When preachers make this point (despite your distaste for it), they’re making a very important point: that God made this world with freedom because wanted a world of love. Love as we have ultimately seen it in Jesus. He creates, he seeks, he woos. But he doesn’t overwhelm. We still choose whether our response will be love or — what? — apathy.
Mike,
There’s a lot to talk about here. Let’s set aside issues of freedom for now (a growingly untenable assumption in a post-Cartesian world). I think the simple “volitional love model” (C.S. Lewis was not the best psychologist) has a grain of truth in it which makes it both rhetorically simple and effective (it’s a good sound bite). But that model is just killing the church. Two quick examples:
1. Political Example: When we emphasize volition like we do, rich Christians look a poor people and simply see laziness, a lack of will. We need to replace this volitional model with a more contextualized and causal notion of will. Only then will Christians see that “will” and “choice” are often a product of circumstance. Strong notions of “free will” undercut calls to social justice.
2. Spiritual Formation Example: A “volitional” view of virtue means that the church must rely on “trying” to effect change. However, if we see virtue (e.g., loving my neighbor) as affective rather than volitional we need new routes to spiritual formation. Rather than “choice” we try to create “empathy” and “compassion.” Again, you don’t choose empathy. It happens to you. And this model moves churches away from pedagogy and rhetoric toward spiritual formation efforts aimed at changing hearts.
I think we can find middle ground with the notion of “acting as if.” We choose to act in a loving way and find, someday down the road, that my emotions have been changed. What was before volitional and behavioral is now emotional and spontaneous. In short, choice and affect are interrelated. I’m just trying to do my part to offer a more nuanced vision of will, character, and virtue because there is great opportunity here. Impoverished views of humans affect the church as much as impoverished views of God.
But then again, I’m a psychologist, so all this is very, very self-serving.
(BTW, Highland does a great job working with empathy. For example, when we watch the Invisible Children movie empathy powerfully chooses us. And choice follows.)
Carisse has the most beautiful view of all outside her office window: young, inquisitive, brilliant, Godly ACU students who will one day, with God’s help, govern the world and shepherd His church. I’ll take that view anyday.
Indeed I do, though my *office* window looks out onto the library atrium, where selfsame students mentioned by Mark2 hang out, eat lunch, study alone or together, talk on cell phones, sleep and connect to wi-fi.