Comments on: Ted Haggard

By: Jack Assman

Jack Assman — Thu, 23 Nov 2006 04:42:03 +0000

One better… let’s just throw Big Mike Lewis out and treat him like crap.

Sounds like fun! (his idea… not mine)

By: Big Mike Lewis

Big Mike Lewis — Tue, 14 Nov 2006 07:59:07 +0000

So…let’s just throw everyone out of the church who has ever sinned and not been forthright with it…

Better yet, let’s treat them like crap for it too and hold on to our anger…

Oh wait, the gospel of Jesus says the opposite.

By: Ron Mosby

Ron Mosby — Sun, 12 Nov 2006 13:13:22 +0000

Yahoo! has an article out right now that asks what happens to the members of the fellowship once a pastor falls from grace? Well, if the members are following man rather than God, they will leave. My concern is whether the members of any congregation understand that they do not go to church, they are the church. Unfortunately, we have divided ourselves into so many different groups that we have forgotten that there is only one church, and Christ Jesus is the head of that church. Since Jesus built the church, God can set us as members wherever He feels that we will be best fitted. Yet so many of us decide that we will attend a fellowship because we like the music, the pastor, or any other reason besides submitting to God and being set in a fellowship that He feels is best for us. This is why the true church struggles. We have thousands of people attending megachurches that do not even belong there, so God’s will cannot be accomplished because people are not in their right place. We must understand that as one body, we have created this situation. How do we begin to correct it? Go to the Lord, and find out where He desires for us to be set, and begin carrying out our assignment at that fellowship.

By: Alice

Alice — Sat, 11 Nov 2006 15:20:05 +0000

What an incredibly sad situation. I have read what so many have to say and would like to add my own thoughts.
Many years ago, my pastor told me over and over how much he appreciated how I treated him. When asked to explain his comment, all he could say was,”You treat me like you do everyone else.” I didn’t appreciate what he meant until my husband was called to be an interem pastor at the next town over. We are from Wyoming so you can imagine how small these congregations are, plus we were only there for a few short months. Regardless, we realized what pastors and thier wives go through. So much emphasis is on the negative aspect of being in a position of leadership, but we were treated like royalty. It’s not that I didn’t appreciate the kindness of others, but my husband and I discussed how many could get caught up in the adulation of the people. Since that time, I have worked hard to let people know that while their pastors deserve respect, they are not ever to be put on pedastals. I have sat under many wonderful pastors, but if every one of them decided to support gay marriage, abortions, or anything else the Word speaks against, it would not sway me in the least. I am not groounded in a man, but in my Lord.
I’m thankful for the exposing of Ted Haggerty’s sin, for his sake. What the world has to say about it, doesn’t bother me either. It’s a bigger story but nothing new. They’re always trying to find fault with the Church. May God bless Ted Haggerty’s family and his congregation.
Alice

By: ColoSpgsres

ColoSpgsres — Fri, 10 Nov 2006 21:33:32 +0000

As the spouse of someone who grew up at Highland, and having attended New Life Church for the past 6 years, I’ve been reading this blog with interest. Just a few thoughts re some of the comments:
We’ve been hearing a lot about stages of grief in the corporate counseling that is happening right now. One thing that the youth minister said on Wednesday: Know what stage you’re in, but don’t stop at any one except acceptance of the loss and forgiveness. It occurred to me that many of our pathologies as adults have to do with stages of grief that we have not worked through, but that’s another discussion. As for Ted Haggard’s sincerity, I don’t think I have the energy (or the authority) to take that one on. He is not ever returning to leadership at New Life, and we’ve got enough issues in our own hearts and lives, in binding up the wounds at the church, the body of Christ as a whole, and in dealing with Christ’s name being dragged through the mud again. The leaders who dismissed Haggard (and I’ve not heard of one church member who disagrees with that decision) are not giving him a pass on his behavior or vetting anything that I know of, except to read the letter to the congregation, and to say that his wrongdoing made the removal appropriate. There were actually harsher things said as well. The spokesperson of that board did quote Ted as saying that 98% of him loved God, but that he dealt with this difficult thing. Hopefully this issue will cause church members and the leaders to look at homosexual behavior and other sins that folks are fearful of confessing (often understandably so) and figure out how we will love and encourage each other in all of our many struggles. It would be nice to think that a person in leadership could have the freedom to confess and receive prayers (which Scripture says brings healing. And I think Haggard attempted this in the past, but evidently slipped into a degree of unaccountability at some point). Joel Maners is so right about regular, specific confession, and if our leaders did it, I suspect we all would feel free to follow suit. It’s also incumbent upon those who are leaders to counsel, guide, pray for and receive their fellow Christians; maybe when a church holds onto a leader who admits temptation, but walks in moral purity, we will experience confession, healing and growth like never before in the body of Christ. As for the research that one of the posters did on Ted, please be careful what you believe. If there is not documentation, take it with a big block of salt. We owe at least that much to him and to each other. I have not always agreed with everything Ted said, but there is a lot of misrepresentation out there. As for the issue of homosexuality, it is troubling that so many Christians are beginning to sound as if they are defending it, because “it’s the way they are.” Well, we are all born into a sinful and fallen world. We’ve been given an instruction manual, and we’re either going to believe it and try to follow it with the strength that Christ provides, or not. I might say that affairs or rage or whatever, is just me, but haven’t we been called to obey, no matter where our urges might be beckoning? Ted preached over and over on putting to death the sinful man every morning. It was good advice. May God give us all–including Ted–the will and grace to do it. Please pray for our church–especially the teenagers and young people who have been so wounded by this, that healing and forgiveness will prevail, and that holiness and the fear of the Lord will permeate all of our lives.

By: cdginco

cdginco — Fri, 10 Nov 2006 04:58:37 +0000

I was at New Life Church the Sunday before this happened and heard Pastor Ted preach his last sermon. That was my first time at New Life. His sermon was great and who would have suspected that a week later he would have fallen the way he did. I went back last Sunday and heard the letter that was read from Pastor Ted. It sounds sincere but I can’t judge whether it was because I’m not God. He’s the only one that knows. I attend a church of Christ most of the time but am visiting Denver for a couple of months on business and wanted to check out New Life Church. The worship is awesome and not near as boring as church of Christ worship (which I grew up in). As far as the homosexual debate on whether or not you’re born that way, I can tell you that I know for a fact you’re born with it. It’s not a choice. As far as whether God wouldn’t allow you to be born in sin, well that’s something I don’t understand. Homosexuality is not a choice anymore than heterosexuality is. What did Jesus emphasize in his ministry on earth? Love, compassion, serving the sinners and the poor and the needy, the widows and orphans. What did he say about sexuality? NOTHING. WWJD, what would Jesus do? He accepted everyone with open arms.

By: pam whitley

pam whitley — Fri, 10 Nov 2006 02:48:23 +0000

Alex,
You don’t know me at all…..and so I’m not going to even attempt to “justify” my comment.

I will tell you, honestly, that by “normal” gay I meant the gay who has solely been attracted to and able to sexually perform with those of the same sex. Normal was not a great choice of words.

While I enjoy stereotypes and “joke” with them as much as the next person among my gay friends…..I was not at all referring to a stereotype with that comment. But I can certainly see how you would have taken it that way.

Thanks for the discussion.

love in Christ,
pam

By: Belinda

Belinda — Thu, 09 Nov 2006 22:06:01 +0000

We may all have certain “desires” but know we must struggle to not follow through on those desires.

“As far as being a homosexual but abstaining, would you feel included if your church if you were told the way you had felt your entire life was wrong, and that you could never, ever know fulfillment in the way your heterosexual peers could?”

To this, I respond with people who remain single for their entire life and being able to “know fulfillment.” They have no “right” to enjoy a sexual relationship either.

I understand the idea behind “choosing” to be heterosexual, but I still don’t believe God has created a person to be in a sinful state.

By: Ray

Ray — Thu, 09 Nov 2006 18:32:02 +0000

Brett,
I believe the church is of divine origin.
I believe the doctrine is perfect. No , not the application. People sin.
Just because someone believes that being homosexual is sinful does not make someone homophobic.
I cannot make a sweeping statement about rampant homophobia in the church because I have not heard what every Christian believes and / or how they will confront the issue of homosexual behavior.

By: alex

alex — Thu, 09 Nov 2006 13:49:46 +0000

Maybe a simpler and easier way to think about your question Belinda is to ask yourself, “when did you choose to be a heterosexual?” I think your answer will probably be very telling in the ‘choice or not’ discussion.

I’m also not sure I can find where in the Bible it distinguishes between a “homosexual” and a “practicing homosexual.” I believe that’s been invented by present day theology.

I am a little intrigued by the “ordinary gay” comments posted by Pam though. What exactly is an “ordinary gay”? My guess is that to Pam it probably means a hairdresser, flight attendant, interior designer, AIDS patient or a priest (sorry, couldn’t resist).

Seriously though, it may be hard for you and others to believe, but there was a gay guy that helped knock down the door on United Flight 93 on 9/11 and another that was on the Navy Seal team that rescued Jessica Lynch in Iraq. Stereotypes, directed towards any group, are often misleading. I believe this is particularly true with the GLBT community as there is a tremendous amount of diversity even within this “diverse” group.

This man is no better than other gays just because he has worked so hard to cover up his sexuality and has been successful until now. In fact, his use of meth, unfortunately, places him within a group that is highly susceptible to AIDS given the uninhibited state that that drug places users in. It is for this reason that I believe Haggard’s story should rouse more pity than condemnation from both the GLBT and Christian communities alike.

By: Brett Keller

Brett Keller — Thu, 09 Nov 2006 06:28:05 +0000

Ray, I understand your reluctance to be critical, but as a non-Christian I naturally view the church as a human creation. I think you may be blinkered (if not blinded) by your reluctance to place blame on faulty institutional structures into thinking these problems are simply ones that individuals can fix in their own hearts. Sometimes it’s the doctrine itself, and the system that promotes it, that must change before you’ll see the end to the problem. You can doubt my explanation, but all you’ll reap is a harvest of closeted ministers and rampant homophobia in your churches as long as those structures remain unchanged.

And Belinda- while I’m not trying to start a huge debate here on what causes homosexuality, here’s one insight I’ve gained from classes relating to developmental biology, genetics, and psychology. There often isn’t a clear distinction between ‘nature and nurture’. Many behaviors and attributes can have a physical basis without having a purely genetic cause. In other words, factors such as the prenatal chemical environment, developmental disruptions, and one’s physical environment growing up can have a strong effect on gene expression. Very few traits have a single gene as their cause (especially with behaviors as complex as homosexuality) so just because a behavior doesn’t have a ‘direct’ link doesn’t mean it’s a freely chosen behavior either.
As far as being a homosexual but abstaining, would you feel included if your church if you were told the way you had felt your entire life was wrong, and that you could never, ever know fulfillment in the way your heterosexual peers could? Again, I’m just pointing out that the pressures on individuals created by your doctrine will continue forcing people into closets.

By: pam

pam — Thu, 09 Nov 2006 00:00:22 +0000

Yes Ray….this was the same sort of sentiment with which I wrote my comment. It’s just too broad and sweeping a statement for something that’s influenced by a MULTITUDE of factors….all with different weights according to different individuals on a case by case basis. This particular case just does NOT look like a place to blame the church much at all. This guy was not and is not your ordinary gay, struggling or not. Bradford’s comment makes a great deal of sense to me and would seem to have much more to do with what was going on here than the whole “i’m afraid to be gay” thing.

just my opinion.
pam

By: Ray

Ray — Wed, 08 Nov 2006 22:29:59 +0000

Brett,
Iam not sure what you mean by the institution of the church. My concern it that so often I either readm or hear people tossing all kind of accusations at ” the church ” and I think we all need to be careful how we talk about the church. It is the church of Christ. He purchased it with His blood . Yes there is indidvidual sin but to just accuse the church is just too much I think.

By: Belinda

Belinda — Wed, 08 Nov 2006 21:18:49 +0000

I’m not sure I believe homosexuality is a choice or not. I know that God doesn’t place us “in sin,” which tends to make me believe that it’s not genenic. However, being a homosexual and practicing homosexuality are two different things. Even if one is born with those tendencies, they don’t have to act on them.

By: Bradford L. Stevens

Bradford L. Stevens — Wed, 08 Nov 2006 12:03:39 +0000

What does it take to be a “good” church leader? I don’t think there is any one answer. There are many paths to choose from in the kingdom and the biblical model is that every person has special talents that they bring to the body for the edification and uplifting of the church. However, there is no shortage of “bad” leadership in the church. The same is true in business. Dilbert is funny for good reason. Most bosses are, shall we say, suboptimal. The same is true for much of church leadership.

But, I have noticed that there is one single pattern that becomes the most common path to destruction. When a leader becomes imbued with a sense of personal exceptionalism, that is when the tough times set in. Personal exceptionalism is a feeling that one is not like other people. Those who suffer from this defect truly believe that they are special and beter than everyone else—that they are apart and above. The exceptional person has more than a grand view of himself–he has a grandiose one.

This is not the same as self-confidence or a healthy self-esteem. Confident people have a sense of their own competencies (and deficiencies), but they don’t believe that they have transcended the boundaries of ordinary humanity. Those with healthy self-esteem generally have positive feelings about themselves and their value; but, this does not lead them to believe that they are judged by a different set of standards apart from everyone else.

I suspect that many in church leadership arrive with this problem already estabished. In fact, they make seek leadership roles because of their sense of exceptionality: “I deserve this role, in fact, no one else is as qualified as I am.” But, they can also acquire this delusion after assuming their position of leadership. If enough people tell you how wonderful and special you are, at some point there is a temptation to believe it. It is tempting to forget that the flattery and favors that come with leadership are usually aimed at the role and not the inhabitant. So what is the big deal? How does a bit of excessive pride lead to misery? Ask Mr. Haggerty.

People who feel that they they are exceptional think rules are meant for “regular” people. So they tend to take liberties that the rest of us would never consider. Sometimes it is relatively small things. They show up at meetings late to avoid having to wait for anyone else. They park their car in the closest spot to the door while complaining that there are too few parking spaces. They are at every potluck to eat, but never bring food to share with others. These type of transgressions grow over time. Embezzlement, using church property as their own personal property and sexual harrassment are not uncommon for people with this personality type. They can justify anything to themselves on the basis of their own exceptionalism. They see themselves as special people and feel that they can’t be judged by our rules. When one falls into this trap the odds are that they will fail spectacularly. The result is that they are branded as hypocrites and lose credibility on all issues.

Leaders with this misconception also tend to be rather unhappy people, no matter what face they put on for others. They judge themselves by their own grandiose standards and rarely measure up. This perpetual sense of shame for not being as exceptional as they feel can be a crushing burden.

When we see this happening to others, it can be big news. But, each person who aspires to leadership has to be on guard for this temptation. If one detects feelings of personal exceptionalism creeping into one’s personality, one must nip it in the bud. If you really want to be great in the kindgom, pick up a towell and start washing someone else’s feet. Serving others is the antidote for personal exceptionalism.