I know that eternity for Christians is going to be unimaginably good. I don’t have any more insight than anyone else; I’ve never been there. But I have a notion that eternity for Christ’s people is going to be a time when all of the sorrow that pervades this life–death, friendships that grow distant over time, having to endure injustice and knowing that there are people enduring injustices that I have little power to remedy–will be changed. It’s kind of odd, but when I read The Lord of the Rings, the elves get more and more “real” to me, because they seem to be the only group that knows and carries sorrow with them.

Maybe I’m different. But I guess I just think that the most terrible part of life isn’t so much that people do bad things to one another, but that “things fall apart”, that the defining characteristic of human life and consciousness is sorrow–which has to do both with the fact that people do bad things to each other and with the fact that even when they don’t, bad things sometimes happen.

If you’d like to inquire about free copies of the book (if they have any left), e-mail Michael at zoecarnate [at] gmail [dot] com.

The possibilities of Rapture originators will vary depending on the theologians. We know that the early church made no mention of the Rapture and never once taught the Rapture as a doctrine. After much consideration I have narrowed this wide field down to the following people. London preacher Edward Irving, Jesuit priest Manuel Lacunza, Pseudo-Ephraem, Morgan Edwards, Margaret MacDonald, and John Nelson Darby. The dates of the origin vary depending on who you believe started this Rapture. One common fact that still remains is no matter how we view who started this theory the date cannot be before 306AD. That is 273 years after the church was started and the Apostles preached their sermons.

While the word “rapture” does not occur in our English translations of the Bible, it does appear in the Latin version of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 where it translates the idea of being “caught up.” In fact, our English word rapture is derived from the Latin rapere.

WEBSTERS: Rapture: The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven.

I am not an expert on the word but I can tell you that I have only seen 3 people EVER taken from this world. Elijah, Enoch and Jesus. It would seem out of context for God to “catch away” people from great tribulation. I see Wheat &Tares Matt 13 expressing let them all grow together then rip up the tares to be burned. I see John 17:15 which Jesus prays that we will not be take out of the world but that we are kept safe. I see Acts 10:34 saying God is not a respecter of persons.

I cannot tell you that you are wrong and I am right for I have no authority given to me that you all don’t already possess. I can tell you that I have studied this subject and it comes down to one thing for me.

GOD IS LOVE.

1. Hell is literal and it is found throughout the OT (and NT). A search of blueletterbible.com for “hell” turned up many OT references and 54 total not mentioning other metaphors. Hell is eternal punishment, whether that means annhilation or constant torture. The closer I grow to God, the more hell represents separation from God than anything else. Satan and his angels will go there for sure and Jesus will put them there. Hell gets confusing because of different words/meanings that have been translated just to “hell”.

2. Heaven is up there or somewhere out there. It has been seen by human eyes by John the apostle (in the spirit so maybe he doesn’t count), Stephen, John the Baptist?, and probably some others.

3. Death is death to the body but the spirit lives on. Some day that spirit will put on an immortal body (at least for those born again) We are spirits having a human experience, not humans having a spiritual experience. (Did I read that on this blog?) When death occurs, the spirits of those who are born again go to be with God, awaiting the resurrection. If not so, why would it be considered gain to die as Paul said? The one verse I can think of that seems to contradict this was in Ecclesiastes somewhere I think and talked about there being no knowledge of the dead. I think this was really indicating that over time, the dead are forgotten rather than meaning the dead know nothing.

4. Yes there is a rapture. No the term is not in the Bible, but the concept is. We sing songs about it in the CofC, but we usually think of it differently than many Baptist, Pentecostal, and evangelicals do. When it occurs I’m not sure. I believe it occurs when Christ returns, at the end of the tribulation. Many believe though that the church will leave behind those who aren’t saved before what is called the tribulation. Yes, there will be a literal battle called Armageddon.

5. We will know people in heaven. We won’t be married though. We will know things and have relationship because God is all about relationship. There is going to be some sadness I think at least initially either for those who are lost, for our own failures, or realizing fully what it cost God to redeem us. Why else would God wipe away all tears? This really emphasizes our need to spread the news.

I GOT IN TOO LATE. I’ve been waiting for Mike to spark some topic on this for a while. My views are not typical CofC for the last year or two when it comes to end times. So much I never realized that I see in a new light. THE BIBLE IS AN AMAZING, LIVING, LIFE GIVING, NEVER ENDING MASTERPIECE. I envy those who are able to make their occupation studying the Bible. I haven’t figured it all out and won’t until heaven, but we need to revisit our thinking on this and certainly not squash people who have views that oppose the traditional destruction of Jerusalem by Rome as a primary theme of Revelation, Mathew 24, etc. By this I mean, don’t squash me.

I didn’t know I was a well-known blogger!

(I’m holding you to that bet, by the way ….)

Kathy,
I appreciate your questions. However, I actually don’t think there is much I could say, by way of answers, that would convince you. My sense is, you either see the problems with the dominant eschatologies or you don’t. Kind of like how the Republicans and Democrats see each other: As alien species. So, I’ll just offer some reflections on your five questions:

1. Universalism is compatible with a robust view of Satan. See Julian of Norwich (1342-1416) in her Revelations of the Divine Love.
2. This is an interesting question. In short, I just don’t know. Nor, I imagine, does anyone else. The bible is very sketchy about the ontology of evil.
3. This is also an interesting question. One not uncommon in the bible. Romans is all about how God can be considered Just in light of his promises to Israel given that the Gentiles now have access to promises made to Abraham. This debate is foreshadowed in Jesus’ parables of the workers and the prodigal son. In short, it appears that God can make allowance for “salvation” late in the game, so to speak, and still be considered “Just.”
4. I think you are working with a superficial stereotype of universalism here. Have you read much in the universalism literature? If you have, you’ll see that many universalists have robust notions of hell and punishment. Not at all a “fuzzy,” “get out of jail free card.” I refer you to George MacDonald’s Unspoken Sermons as a starting place.
5. I agree with you on this. My only caveat is to say that eschatological visions should be attended to when they are undermining the way of Jesus in the world. Unfortunately, many do.
Best,
Richard

All I will say is this - for a long, long time, I never asked any of these questions. Now, at 41, I’m starting to get interested in them. And I mean SERIOUSLY interested.

Your students are getting a loooong head start on me.

BTW - also a confirmed amill here…not even a close call for me. But I still want to be generous toward those who come from the pre and post perspectives.

btw-re the concept of hell, there is more than one new teaching by Jesus and the apostles not rooted in the Old Law nor Jewish tradition. And now I must absent myself from this enticing conversation and pleasant company for today.