End Things
Yesterday was a wild day in class as students cut loose asking questions about “end things”:
1. Is hell literal, eternal punishment (500 billion centuries as a brief beginning of punishment for not knowing about Jesus) . . . or is it a figurative way of describing the end/destruction of that which is evil (annihilation)? . . . or is it possible that God’s moving everyone/everything toward redemption?
2. Is heaven “up there” or “down here”? I.e., will God wipe this earth out of existence?
3. Is someone dead just dead . . . or is only their body dead while their spirit is still alive? (In other words, what is the meaning of resurrection?)
4. Is there such a thing as a rapture? Will there be a literal battle of Armaggedon?
5. Will we know people in heaven? Will we be in relationship with them?
The only part of the discussion I didn’t particularly like was the question one student asked in the middle, “Will we need to know all this for the test?” No teacher likes that question because it sounds like, “Do I have to pay attention to this?” But, giving students the benefit of the doubt, maybe it just means, “Do I need to write all this down, or can I just lay my pen down, listen closely, and learn?” (Let’s assume the latter.)
I know, I know: you’re wanting to know what I said in regard to all these questions. Maybe later.
Here are my brief answers:
1. Hell is literal and it is found throughout the OT (and NT). A search of blueletterbible.com for “hell” turned up many OT references and 54 total not mentioning other metaphors. Hell is eternal punishment, whether that means annhilation or constant torture. The closer I grow to God, the more hell represents separation from God than anything else. Satan and his angels will go there for sure and Jesus will put them there. Hell gets confusing because of different words/meanings that have been translated just to “hell”.
2. Heaven is up there or somewhere out there. It has been seen by human eyes by John the apostle (in the spirit so maybe he doesn’t count), Stephen, John the Baptist?, and probably some others.
3. Death is death to the body but the spirit lives on. Some day that spirit will put on an immortal body (at least for those born again) We are spirits having a human experience, not humans having a spiritual experience. (Did I read that on this blog?) When death occurs, the spirits of those who are born again go to be with God, awaiting the resurrection. If not so, why would it be considered gain to die as Paul said? The one verse I can think of that seems to contradict this was in Ecclesiastes somewhere I think and talked about there being no knowledge of the dead. I think this was really indicating that over time, the dead are forgotten rather than meaning the dead know nothing.
4. Yes there is a rapture. No the term is not in the Bible, but the concept is. We sing songs about it in the CofC, but we usually think of it differently than many Baptist, Pentecostal, and evangelicals do. When it occurs I’m not sure. I believe it occurs when Christ returns, at the end of the tribulation. Many believe though that the church will leave behind those who aren’t saved before what is called the tribulation. Yes, there will be a literal battle called Armageddon.
5. We will know people in heaven. We won’t be married though. We will know things and have relationship because God is all about relationship. There is going to be some sadness I think at least initially either for those who are lost, for our own failures, or realizing fully what it cost God to redeem us. Why else would God wipe away all tears? This really emphasizes our need to spread the news.
I GOT IN TOO LATE. I’ve been waiting for Mike to spark some topic on this for a while. My views are not typical CofC for the last year or two when it comes to end times. So much I never realized that I see in a new light. THE BIBLE IS AN AMAZING, LIVING, LIFE GIVING, NEVER ENDING MASTERPIECE. I envy those who are able to make their occupation studying the Bible. I haven’t figured it all out and won’t until heaven, but we need to revisit our thinking on this and certainly not squash people who have views that oppose the traditional destruction of Jerusalem by Rome as a primary theme of Revelation, Mathew 24, etc. By this I mean, don’t squash me.
For those interested in a thoughtful and scholarly discussion concerning hell, I would highly recommend my friend, Edward Fudge’s book: The Fire that Consumes.
My thoughts on the “Rapture”
The possibilities of Rapture originators will vary depending on the theologians. We know that the early church made no mention of the Rapture and never once taught the Rapture as a doctrine. After much consideration I have narrowed this wide field down to the following people. London preacher Edward Irving, Jesuit priest Manuel Lacunza, Pseudo-Ephraem, Morgan Edwards, Margaret MacDonald, and John Nelson Darby. The dates of the origin vary depending on who you believe started this Rapture. One common fact that still remains is no matter how we view who started this theory the date cannot be before 306AD. That is 273 years after the church was started and the Apostles preached their sermons.
While the word “rapture” does not occur in our English translations of the Bible, it does appear in the Latin version of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 where it translates the idea of being “caught up.” In fact, our English word rapture is derived from the Latin rapere.
WEBSTERS: Rapture: The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven.
I am not an expert on the word but I can tell you that I have only seen 3 people EVER taken from this world. Elijah, Enoch and Jesus. It would seem out of context for God to “catch away” people from great tribulation. I see Wheat &Tares Matt 13 expressing let them all grow together then rip up the tares to be burned. I see John 17:15 which Jesus prays that we will not be take out of the world but that we are kept safe. I see Acts 10:34 saying God is not a respecter of persons.
I cannot tell you that you are wrong and I am right for I have no authority given to me that you all don’t already possess. I can tell you that I have studied this subject and it comes down to one thing for me.
GOD IS LOVE.
Spencer Burke (founder of The Ooze) just wrote a book called A Heretic’s Guide to Eternity, and last I heard, they were giving out free copies to bloggers. I’ve got mine sitting right here next to me. It looks like it deals with many of these issues, from the milennial arguments to universalism to the orthodox views of the eschaton.
If you’d like to inquire about free copies of the book (if they have any left), e-mail Michael at zoecarnate [at] gmail [dot] com.
Amen that, Keith.
I just got back from Europe. I heard the same glory of the grape I heard in 1991. It is said that only monks made the wine for the towns because it is so spiritual. Christ often spoke of wine and His first miracle was wine from water. You grow this earthly grape, it receives both the sun and the rain. In due time you harvest it and put it in its bottle(tomb). Whatever happens is magic and in due time you open the bottle to fine wine. It is a metaphor on the life of man. It is so respected. Seems so different than our thoughts over here.
This whole discussion reminds me of an early episode of The Simpsons in which all the children were in Sunday school. The teacher was teaching about heaven, and this little girl with purple hair spoke up and said, “Wouldn’t eternal bliss get kind of boring after a while?”
I know that eternity for Christians is going to be unimaginably good. I don’t have any more insight than anyone else; I’ve never been there. But I have a notion that eternity for Christ’s people is going to be a time when all of the sorrow that pervades this life–death, friendships that grow distant over time, having to endure injustice and knowing that there are people enduring injustices that I have little power to remedy–will be changed. It’s kind of odd, but when I read The Lord of the Rings, the elves get more and more “real” to me, because they seem to be the only group that knows and carries sorrow with them.
Maybe I’m different. But I guess I just think that the most terrible part of life isn’t so much that people do bad things to one another, but that “things fall apart”, that the defining characteristic of human life and consciousness is sorrow–which has to do both with the fact that people do bad things to each other and with the fact that even when they don’t, bad things sometimes happen.
In regard to what Keith wrote on Oct. 18th, I believe that historian Dave MacPherson’s Google contribution “Deceiving and Being Deceived” thoroughly answers the Pseudo-Ephraem and Morgan Edwards claims and then shows with documentation that Margaret Macdonald was the real “pretrib origin” culprit. He also has Google pieces entitled “X-Raying Margaret” and “Pretrib Rapture Diehards” which further clarifying things. All most interesting. J.E. (Mac’s “Scholars Weigh My Research” lists endorsements from top scholars also.)