Yesterday was a wild day in class as students cut loose asking questions about “end things”:
1. Is hell literal, eternal punishment (500 billion centuries as a brief beginning of punishment for not knowing about Jesus) . . . or is it a figurative way of describing the end/destruction of that which is evil (annihilation)? . . . or is it possible that God’s moving everyone/everything toward redemption?
2. Is heaven “up there” or “down here”? I.e., will God wipe this earth out of existence?
3. Is someone dead just dead . . . or is only their body dead while their spirit is still alive? (In other words, what is the meaning of resurrection?)
4. Is there such a thing as a rapture? Will there be a literal battle of Armaggedon?
5. Will we know people in heaven? Will we be in relationship with them?
The only part of the discussion I didn’t particularly like was the question one student asked in the middle, “Will we need to know all this for the test?” No teacher likes that question because it sounds like, “Do I have to pay attention to this?” But, giving students the benefit of the doubt, maybe it just means, “Do I need to write all this down, or can I just lay my pen down, listen closely, and learn?” (Let’s assume the latter.)
I know, I know: you’re wanting to know what I said in regard to all these questions. Maybe later.
Mike,
I do know that it is lonely being a universalist in the churches of Christ! But seriously, I was about to lose my faith in college when I stumbled upon George MacDonald’s “Unspoken Sermons.” I’ve never encountered a more profound depiction of God and His Love. I wish more people in the CofC knew of MacDonald’s body of work.
Great post Mike,
Sound like a great class.
I like asking questions and making people think and sounds like you are one of those great professors that make you do that.
There is a discussion on my blog on Heaven, Hell and the Old Testament. I find it very interesting that the after life as we know it really isn’t evident in the Old Testament. No garantee of heaven and absolutely no mention of hell.
I am currently reading a great book on heaven by Joe Beam and Lee Wilson entitled, “The Real Heaven: It’s Not What You Think”. It answers alot of great questions that we have regarding heaven.
They discuss in the book:
Is Heaven an actual place or a state of mind?
Where is heaven?
Will be beome angels?
Will there be animals in heaven?
It is a very intersting book to say the least.
I would for any of you to join the discussion on my blog on Heaven, Hell and the Old Testament and if you haven’t bought Joe Beam and Lee Wilson’s book on The Real Heaven you should. It should be a must read for all ministers and those who have questions about heaven.
Sadly, I have to tell you that I have noticed a new trend with today’s students since I have returned to school. When they asked, will this be on the test, they meant do I need to learn this or not.
One thing I have noticed in my return to school so far is the students inability to do the work themselves. They all want study guides, they all want professors to put their notes on the internet, they wall want to know exactly what is on the test. It would be a sad day for them if they accidentally learned something that they didn’t need too!!!
My social policy class is in the process of revolting against the teacher because instead of regurgitating the assigned readings she has chosen to show videos and foster discussions in our classroom. How dare she?????
I have lost my faith and its because of these questions. It’s not the answers that did it, its that we are still asking these questions in a modern world.
Is this on the test is the best question asked. It leads to some factual reality.
Brother…
I love my work - but occasionally you will say something about one of your classes and it makes me long to be sitting in and to be re-awakened.
Occasionally a book will revive me and music does it sometimes. But healthy discussion with open minds is so invigorating and so few people want to do it these days.
You are a blessed man to working in a liberal arts environment that promotes learning and exploration.
Yes - I would love to have heard how you responded - was it with more questions?
Mike,
I don’t know what you’re answers were but I’m fairly certain of mine:
1. I don’t know
2. I don’t know
3. I don’t know
4. I don’t know
5. I hope so
Also John Allen Turner has some great posts on Hell Houses very intersting.
This stirred a familiar feeling inside me. I remember when these questions burned inside me. I knew at some levels that the “hokey (at best) end times” stuff was just bad theology but I didn’t have good answers to replace it with. It all seemed so important. My instinct now is to want to minimize how significant these questions are to this age group, by giving a very “adult” brush off - how sad. What I love is that these questions and the hours used up in these discussions lay the ground work for valuing Spiritual Conversation. When we develop the habit of asking the hard questions and enjoying the times of sharing and discussion it is awesome. Who knows, next year it could be discipleship, social justice, purity, spiritual disciples.
Yeah for questions and the kind of friendships that develop when we are sharing the journey!
oops, make that spiritual disciplines…
Do we have to read this, pensively think of the meaning of this ourselves, and then respond……..or can we just sit back and observe? I clearly want an “A” in this “class”……
Mike-
Those questions are just a tease without the answers! One of my few regrets from ACU is not having your class and it’s because of discussions like this that I would have loved it. Thanks for blessing others.
Reminds me of a story told as true, of a Rice U professor in the seventies. I forget what the area of study was.
An somewhat insolent young student challenged him the first day of class:
“Are you looking for original thought in this class, or do you want us to mindlessly parrot back to you whatever you tell us?”
The professor thought a moment, and replied:
“Undergraduate students are incapable of original thought. I want you to mindlessly parrot back to me what I tell you.”
Humor aside, I wish I were in Mike’s class too. So glad to hear of him leading these young minds. My daughter is in a freshman at ACU this year.
How wonderful that the greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, MIND, and strength. And that “LIKE” that, is to love your neighbor as yourself. The pursuit of these can worthily occupy a lifetime.
Michael
I am currently reading a great book on heaven by Joe Beam and Lee Wilson entitled, “The Real Heaven: It’s Not What You Think”. It answers alot of great questions that we have regarding heaven.
Is Heaven an actual place or a state of mind?
Where is heaven?
Will be beome angels?
Will there be animals in heaven?
4 of the most pertinent questions facing the planet. We’ve been waiting 2000 years to find out the answers. Finally we have the technology to unlock these mysteries. Joe Beam (Jim’s cousin) walked out the high tech lab and declared “No cats in heaven” and the world breathed a sigh of relief.
Hell - yes, it’s there. Heaven - maybe we can’t imagine it because we grapple daily with stress, inferiority complexes, aches/pains, heartaches, and ups/downs from caffeine, sugar, food, visual/emotional/verbal stimulations that have nothing to do with our eternal dwelling place and body (spirit).
So, Mike, how much of a kickback do you get from Amazon for requiring the entire LaHaye/Jenkins series as textbooks for your class? I hope it’s more than the standard 5%!
But, I think it’s really cool how you dedicate that one Friday to playing the Left Behind video game. It’s that use of cutting edge technology to indoctrinate the young minds about the real End Times that makes you such a beloved professor!
Oh, heck, I don’t want to know what YOU said.
I want to know what ASHLEY said!
Lelland,
They also have alot of other great questions discussed in the book:
What happens after we die? Will we recognize eachother in heaven? Will know everything in heaven? What will the new earth be like? What will we do in heaven? Can we know we are going to heaven? Just to name a few topics of discussion the book. Joe Beam and Lee Wilson did a fantastic job with this work and study. It would definately be a book to teach at church.
What happens after we die? Will we recognize each other in heaven? Will know everything in heaven? What will the new earth be like? What will we do in heaven?
Don’t know. Don’t care. All I know about heaven is that God will be there, and that’s good enough for me. All the other stuff is gravy.
Leland -
You ask very serious questions and deserve serious responses, along with everyone else. Some of us have the God-given gift of faith, some of us are skeptics, until shown otherwise, myself included.
It is not wrong or bad to question. It is good. However, some questions can be answered, but many can’t. I suppose at some point in one’s life faith becomes the single most important issue to face.
In the meantime, have you (or any of the rest of you) read “Letters From A Skeptic” by Gregory A. Boyd and his father, Edward Boyd?
If not, it is the best book I’ve ever read on most of these questions. It is a series of letters between a skeptic father and his Christian son in which the son tells the father he can ask any question he wants and the son will attempt to answer each one.
The book is not a long one and easily read by going from question letters to their answers. I found that the further I got into the book, the better it was and I found it most insightful and helpful to me in pondering things I’d never felt I’d found satisfactory answers for.
I highly recommend it.
Dee
P. S.
Leland - the book I reference is available in just about any bookstore, as well as on Amazon (which is the link I gave). It is not written by anyone connected with the churches of Christ. Another point of view to consider. I don’t know what your background is or what you’re looking for. Just thought this book might be of great benefit to you. It certainly was to me and I’ve given several to friends to read.
Dee
Mike and all:
Brian McLaren’s third book in the New Kind Of Christian Trilogy: The Last Word And The Word After That, tackles the “hell” question in a way only McLaren can do. It would be good to read the first two as a precursor, but not necessary. It would be better than the Left Behind series GKB
I can’t remember the last time I heard the work hell mentioned in church. I am sure it has been a while. It is no wonder there are questions.
Why don’t we tackel these issues in church?
Question to the preachers and teachers:
Thought I have never preached a sermon I have taught a fair share of classes. Why do Ministers avoid such topics? Not saying you are Mike cause you are a proponent of progressive theology in my opinion
(thats a good thing).
Still why do people avoid these things like talking about the rapture. Heck, post modern Christianity spews this stuff forth like they do the Gospel of Prosperity. Why do we not address these things?
These are the discussions that wear me out. It makes me think of a statement made by a speaker at the Zoe Conference– “…all of us have some part of our theological thinking that is wrong. That pretty much makes us all heretics (lower case “h”) in some respects”. That says to me– proceed with humility because the pendulum tends to swing wildly. Seems like the backlash to too many years of hellfire and brimstone is for some a thought that surely there really isn’t a hell and a loving God surely couldn’t send people there. Hmmmm. Pretty loaded issue. I think I’ll stick with Joel Q. who said “I don’t know.” And, Leland, I agree… anyone who seems to hold the key for deep mysteries of the past 2000 years makes me a wee bit skeptical. There’s my negativity for the day… I will now proceed cheerfully!
I think these issues regarding eschatology and soteriology are very important because ideas have behavioral implications. They articulate theological positions regarding view of God, view of Other, and, hence, view of ministry.
I, personally, think universalism is the only coherent position for Christians in a modern, post-modern, and post-Christian age. And, if you are reading the tea leaves, you are probably noticing that a lot of influential thinkers in contemporary Christianity are moving in this direction.
Here are some quick reasons why I think universalism is the most theologically coherent and moral soteriological / eschatological position:
1. View of God: God’s love is the primary witness.
2. Handling the problem of Moral Luck: Given the contingent facts of life, it is just not realistic to expect many people to accept God in the span of a human life.
3. Non-Thanatocentric: Thanatocentric positions keep allowing death to trump Kingdom concerns (e.g., Saving souls from hell is more important than helping the poor).
4. Sanctification over status: The Hell/Heaven vision gets Christians focused on status rather than sanctification, the focal vision of universalism.
5. Putting aside the evils of group psychology: Heaven/Hell visions create categories of people and one thing psychology tells us is that boundaries are latent forms of discrimination, infrahumanization, and violence.
So…Is al this stuff going to be on the test or not?!
Mike,
Is there a coherent Eschatology in Churches of Christ? It seems like we’ve spent so much of our time knocking down pre/postmillenialism, we haven’t put anything coherentin its place. Are there any resources you would recommend on this subject?
-j
In Luke 19:10, Jesus proclaims, “the Son of Man has come to seek and save that which was lost.”
Save from what? Lost to where? If there’s no Hell, why did Jesus come at all?
I would love to hear your responses to these questions Mike.
I, myself, tend to lean toward the christian universalist persuasion. And the thing that really took me “over the edge” was Calvinism, actually.
Reformed thinkers believe in Calvinism because of the idea of double jeopardy. If Jesus died for everyone’s sins, and then people don’t accept him and get punished in hell for their own sins, punishment happens twice. This pushes them to believe that God chose those that Jesus died for. I can’t accept that, or arminianism (thanks to Brian McLaren and others) so I lean toward Universalism.
The thing is, that shouldn’t matter to me in the long run. My job is to be Jesus to the world and I don’t need to have the right eschatology to do it.
But the wrong eschatology (see Time LaHaye) can be a detriment to being Jesus.
Lisa,
Save us from ourselves… from the death and destruction that comes from sin? Salvation begins here on earth because we are being transformed into Christ. Jesus wasn’t just a get out of hell free card, but a lot of people view him that way.
It hasn’t been that long ago that many preachers in the Church of Christ did quite of bit of teaching on these subjects. Seems like Guy Woods even had a book called, “Shall We Know One Another in Heaven?”
Of course, a lot of the stuff in this category would fit under the heading: Premillennialism and Why It’s Wrong (Foy E. Wallace, Jr. et al). As long as premillinnialism was taught as doctrine (Hal Lindsey’s “The Late Great Planet Earth, etc.), we seemed to know what to do with that. But ever since premillennialism “went narrative” ala LaHaye and Jinkins, it seems that those who don’t agree have lost all nerve. Not to mention, of course, that identity based on doctrinal distinctions has gone out of style.
As the many questions from the class indicate, it’s a mistake to avoid such topics in a teaching ministry. Preachers, get with it.
Justin,
If everyone is going to end up being saved anyway, why worry about their spiritual needs and tell them about Jesus (wouldn’t that really make “spiritual needs” an oxymoron?)? Since we’re all going to end up in the same place anyway, shouldn’t we just take care of their physical needs right now and not worry about anything else?
It would be nice to be able to believe that there is no Hell, that everyone will end up being saved, that it doesn’t matter what church you go to, or whether or not you even believe in Jesus.
But, Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through Me.”
I can’t get around that.
So you’re willing to say that tribal peoples of Africa who never heard the word, or peoples in the far east who didn’t hear christianity until well after Jesus died, are all burning in hell now for something they had no control over? That doesn’t seem very Christ like to me. Makes God kinda sound like big kid with a magnifying glass and humanity are the ants.
Our spiritual and physical needs seem to be one in the same. Jesus came preaching good news to the poor, not good news to the religious who just didn’t have quite enough right to escape from hell. He healed those that were sick and he commanded us to help those that have less than we do.
I think you’re missing a vital idea of salvation. Its not just getting to live in heaven forever… its salvation from the evils of this world. The evil no longer has power over us when we become citizens of teh Kingdom of God. That is why it is good news to the poor. I don’t know what’s going to happen at the end of time, but weighing the evidence that there is no mention of hell in the old testament, and looking at the ways Jesus used it (which are more figurative than we’d like to believe) I can’t say that the bible makes a clear case for hell.
That being said, I still think there is judgement. I don’t know what could be worse than standing in front of the creator of the world and being judged.
I’ve also heard theories that all that is bad within a soul disappears and the rest of the soul stays with God. For some people, that would leave very little, especially if they hadn’t begun the transforming work of the holy spirit.
I will say you cannot be saved here on earth without Jesus, but the ressurection is a different bird indeed. We need to stop viewing salvation as a completely post mortem thing. Salvation is here at now. We are the in breaking of the Kingdom! We should like by the ethics of Jesus and stop being slaves to the Kingdoms of the world.
Quite a few of the commenters have mentioned how CoC has dealt with pre/post millenialism and, it seems from the posts, has dispatched it to the trash heap of discarded old notions. However, there are entire streams of the CoC (eastern Kentucky comes to mind) where these beliefs are held by a large number of people in “our” tribe. I have not been raised in one of those churches, but have studied this for 30 years and have found that I come down squarely in the camp of the pre-millenial dispensationalists. I didn’t start out to go there, but it is just as clear to me that they are right as it is to some that they are wrong. (And no, I have never even read a LaHaye book or anything like it, and don’t plan to).
My point is not to argue one position or the other, just be aware that there are many of us who feel the “end times” themes are slapping us in the face, and for good reasons, in my opinion. Don’t dismiss it out of hand. To do so is condescending, and really doesn’t add to an honest debate about the subject.
One’s eschatology does not determine his or her salvation, and I don’t make it a position which is going to make me shun someone else because of beliefs in this area. It has been correctly said in an earlier response that our job here is to be Jesus to the world, and eschatology one way or the other shouldn’t keep us from doing that, nor should it be a test of fellowship.
Don -
Good point. No place for condescending voices (though they are easier with the LEFT BEHIND series than with serious dispensational writing).
I’m a confirmed amillennialist — along with the big majority of Christ-followers through the ages. IMHO, the premillennial stream is misreading prophecy and has a wrong picture of the kingdom — heaven breaking into this world. Nevertheless, I could be wrong. And it doesn’t effect my confidence in the faith of those with whom I disagree on this.
To me, these are big, important issues. Where we are speculating, we need to say so. Where devoted Christ-followers have disagreements, we must admit it without being divisive over every single thing that pops up. But we’re talking here about some of the big threads of the Christian story — especially the thread of creation. (Again, maybe more on this later.)
Justin,
I am not willing to say that at all.
I believe that God’s ways are higher than man’s ways, and that He will sit in judgment over the world, not me. I believe that a God who is inherently just, wise and loving will make just, wise and loving judgments whether I understand them or not.
This doesn’t mean that I just dismiss the “tribal peoples of Africa” as people who I don’t have to worry about; Jesus told all His disciples, me included, to preach the Gospel to all creation, and if I neglect that burden, that is something which I will be judged for.
On another note, Jesus came to set up a Kingdom that was eternal, not earthly. Being citizens of His Kingdom certainly has its benefits and blessings in this life, but these are not its focus. Jesus came and died to bridge the gulf that sin had created between God and His creation. Being a part of the Kingdom of God ultimately means that we are reconciled with Him, and get to be with Him forever.
thanks, mike, and I think it is a fascinating debate. You are right that a large majority of Christians through the ages have been amillenial, and most of those closest to me in my family and my church relationships are, as well.
I have a bet with a well known blogger, one of the sharpest minds I know and a friend from our days when we were all in the same class at Harding together, that we will all be in heaven by a certain date. If we are not, I buy him lunch at the Heritage Inn. If we are, he shines my halo once a year for the first century. Of course, I told him to print the terms of the bet and put it in a safe place, because if he’s right, we’ll need to see it. If I’m right, it won’t be possible.
The plain fact is, either way, I’m going to let God do what He will do. I don’t have any control over how He plans to let it unfold.
For the zillionth time, I WISH I could be a fly on the wall in yours or Randy’s classes, Mike.(or Monte’s or Ross’s at HU) Those students are so very fortunate, & thanks be to God that they’re thinking & wondering about HIM in their lives!
And, that we all want the whole world that God created & will destroy, to KNOW HIM before Judgment comes.
I dont’ think we all know he’s going to destroy it.
Some people believe that he’s going to rejuvinate it and that “heaven” will be here.
When my wife and I were teaching the toddlers in children’s worship several years ago, we taught a unit on heaven. After we taught the lesson one particular Sunday, and in an effort to reinforce the salient points of the lesson, we gathered the children in a circle and my wife asked them what it would take (can’t remember the exact wording) to get to heaven. One little wise cracking boy in the back remarked “you have to die.” We hadn’t taught that particular point, but that certainly is an important one! I like the simplicity of children. He had his eschatology all figured out, I suppose.
I hope in your class someone pointed out that, while all those questions are interesting to speculate about, they are entirely IRRELEVANT. All we need to know is that there will be an eschaton… but that all we’re responsible for is the here and now. It doesn’t make anyone Christian if they know enough to plan the interior decorations of the mansion in heaven or whatever if the guy next to you won’t be there, and if the girl on the other side of you is starving, or being beaten, or otherwise not being loved.
To quote one demon’s advice to another in C.S. Lewis’ “Screwtape Letters” (excuse the cliché):
“The humans live in time but our Enemy destines them to eternity. He therefore, I believe, wants them to attend chiefly to two things, to eternity itself, and to that point of time which they call the Present. For the Present is the point at which time touches eternity…But we want a whole race perpetually in pursuit of the rainbow’s end, never honest, nor kind, nor happy now, but always using as mere fuel wherewith to heap the altar of the future every real gift which is offered them in the Present.”
The kingdom of heaven is now.
Questions for those that are Universalists and don’t believe there is a literal eternal Hades [not Hell btw].
1-Do you believe there is an actual being called Satan, The Accuser, The Devil? If so, what is his role in your Universalist theory? If, not, what is the cause of such overwhelming evil in this world - at whose feet does that accountability lie?
2-Do both good and evil exist? If so, what are the eternal results of each one in your opinion?
3-Is God considered just and truthful if those that have sought after Him and those that have not receive the same treatment by Him?
4-Universalism is very warm and fuzzy, comforting and demands little of those that choose to ignore Jesus and God, but is it really truth?
5-As far as eschatology goes, it seems most of us agree that Jesus will return as promised - and that return is what I look forward to, which brings me to my stance - I’m a pan-millenialist - It’ll all pan out when He returns.
1. I don’t know. I could see how Satan could just be personification of the evil desires of human beings. I’m just not sure. The fact that dualism and the idea of Satan really didn’t enter the jewish faith until post exile (after their experience with zoarastism (I know I spelled that wrong) makes me wonder.
2. See number 1 for most of this. I don’t think there are eternal results for evil. How just is it to punish finite sin eternally? Supposedly we mess up once and we’re gonna be in hellfire forever… if your child did one thing wrong and you put them in time out for the rest of their life while you were having a party in the other room… you would go to jail for being a terrible parent. Why would you want to worship a God who has that idea of justice?
3. Where is that verse where Jesus tells the parable about the people being paid the same wage for lesser work?’
4. Is that a leading question or what? What is truth ma’am?
5. I look foward to the world being renewed, but for now, my focus is on being part of the inbreaking Kingdom of Christ
Jonathan - If someone had said that, I would have kindly pointed out that the NT disagrees that this is all irrelevant. Passages like 2 Cor. 5, 1 Thess. 4, Rom. 8, 1 Cor. 15, and the fact that 11 of the 12 discussions about Gehenna come from the lips of Jesus — these all make me think that the questions are VERY relevant for the here and now. I would have kindly pointed out that we are tapping into the BIG themes of scripture — creation, the faithfulness of God, new creation, etc. — when we discuss these things.
Justin,
#2 - I doubt anyone is talking about one sin committed determining eternal justice - rather if one had determined to ignore the redemption offered by Jesus in His sacrifice and cleansing blood, I truly believe God will honor that request - to ignore God and be subject to His wrath. God would that not one be lost and we have been given the awesome task of seeing to it that every soul hears the truth, sees the truth in our lives, hears about Jesus and sees Jesus in us. But there also is a task set down for those that hear, at least that’s what I read.
What will be the judgment of God for those that don’t hear? I’m so glad our God is a merciful and gracious God and that it is in His purview to decide about them, not I. He may well apply the Univeralist’s POV, but that is HIS power to do so, not mine.
btw-re the concept of hell, there is more than one new teaching by Jesus and the apostles not rooted in the Old Law nor Jewish tradition. And now I must absent myself from this enticing conversation and pleasant company for today.
oh, my! What a can of worms your students have opened up for this blog community, Mike!
All I will say is this - for a long, long time, I never asked any of these questions. Now, at 41, I’m starting to get interested in them. And I mean SERIOUSLY interested.
Your students are getting a loooong head start on me.
BTW - also a confirmed amill here…not even a close call for me. But I still want to be generous toward those who come from the pre and post perspectives.
I’ve been away from the computer most of the day and just picked up the conversation.
Kathy,
I appreciate your questions. However, I actually don’t think there is much I could say, by way of answers, that would convince you. My sense is, you either see the problems with the dominant eschatologies or you don’t. Kind of like how the Republicans and Democrats see each other: As alien species. So, I’ll just offer some reflections on your five questions:
1. Universalism is compatible with a robust view of Satan. See Julian of Norwich (1342-1416) in her Revelations of the Divine Love.
2. This is an interesting question. In short, I just don’t know. Nor, I imagine, does anyone else. The bible is very sketchy about the ontology of evil.
3. This is also an interesting question. One not uncommon in the bible. Romans is all about how God can be considered Just in light of his promises to Israel given that the Gentiles now have access to promises made to Abraham. This debate is foreshadowed in Jesus’ parables of the workers and the prodigal son. In short, it appears that God can make allowance for “salvation” late in the game, so to speak, and still be considered “Just.”
4. I think you are working with a superficial stereotype of universalism here. Have you read much in the universalism literature? If you have, you’ll see that many universalists have robust notions of hell and punishment. Not at all a “fuzzy,” “get out of jail free card.” I refer you to George MacDonald’s Unspoken Sermons as a starting place.
5. I agree with you on this. My only caveat is to say that eschatological visions should be attended to when they are undermining the way of Jesus in the world. Unfortunately, many do.
Best,
Richard
Don-
This would be a great study for The Fresh Faith class!
don, I’m honored!
I didn’t know I was a well-known blogger!
(I’m holding you to that bet, by the way ….)
I remember having a similar conversation with Dr. Jim Mankin. He was very signigicant in my life. Good luck as you mold and change young people.
Here are my brief answers:
1. Hell is literal and it is found throughout the OT (and NT). A search of blueletterbible.com for “hell” turned up many OT references and 54 total not mentioning other metaphors. Hell is eternal punishment, whether that means annhilation or constant torture. The closer I grow to God, the more hell represents separation from God than anything else. Satan and his angels will go there for sure and Jesus will put them there. Hell gets confusing because of different words/meanings that have been translated just to “hell”.
2. Heaven is up there or somewhere out there. It has been seen by human eyes by John the apostle (in the spirit so maybe he doesn’t count), Stephen, John the Baptist?, and probably some others.
3. Death is death to the body but the spirit lives on. Some day that spirit will put on an immortal body (at least for those born again) We are spirits having a human experience, not humans having a spiritual experience. (Did I read that on this blog?) When death occurs, the spirits of those who are born again go to be with God, awaiting the resurrection. If not so, why would it be considered gain to die as Paul said? The one verse I can think of that seems to contradict this was in Ecclesiastes somewhere I think and talked about there being no knowledge of the dead. I think this was really indicating that over time, the dead are forgotten rather than meaning the dead know nothing.
4. Yes there is a rapture. No the term is not in the Bible, but the concept is. We sing songs about it in the CofC, but we usually think of it differently than many Baptist, Pentecostal, and evangelicals do. When it occurs I’m not sure. I believe it occurs when Christ returns, at the end of the tribulation. Many believe though that the church will leave behind those who aren’t saved before what is called the tribulation. Yes, there will be a literal battle called Armageddon.
5. We will know people in heaven. We won’t be married though. We will know things and have relationship because God is all about relationship. There is going to be some sadness I think at least initially either for those who are lost, for our own failures, or realizing fully what it cost God to redeem us. Why else would God wipe away all tears? This really emphasizes our need to spread the news.
I GOT IN TOO LATE. I’ve been waiting for Mike to spark some topic on this for a while. My views are not typical CofC for the last year or two when it comes to end times. So much I never realized that I see in a new light. THE BIBLE IS AN AMAZING, LIVING, LIFE GIVING, NEVER ENDING MASTERPIECE. I envy those who are able to make their occupation studying the Bible. I haven’t figured it all out and won’t until heaven, but we need to revisit our thinking on this and certainly not squash people who have views that oppose the traditional destruction of Jerusalem by Rome as a primary theme of Revelation, Mathew 24, etc. By this I mean, don’t squash me.
For those interested in a thoughtful and scholarly discussion concerning hell, I would highly recommend my friend, Edward Fudge’s book: The Fire that Consumes.
My thoughts on the “Rapture”
The possibilities of Rapture originators will vary depending on the theologians. We know that the early church made no mention of the Rapture and never once taught the Rapture as a doctrine. After much consideration I have narrowed this wide field down to the following people. London preacher Edward Irving, Jesuit priest Manuel Lacunza, Pseudo-Ephraem, Morgan Edwards, Margaret MacDonald, and John Nelson Darby. The dates of the origin vary depending on who you believe started this Rapture. One common fact that still remains is no matter how we view who started this theory the date cannot be before 306AD. That is 273 years after the church was started and the Apostles preached their sermons.
While the word “rapture” does not occur in our English translations of the Bible, it does appear in the Latin version of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 where it translates the idea of being “caught up.” In fact, our English word rapture is derived from the Latin rapere.
WEBSTERS: Rapture: The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven.
I am not an expert on the word but I can tell you that I have only seen 3 people EVER taken from this world. Elijah, Enoch and Jesus. It would seem out of context for God to “catch away” people from great tribulation. I see Wheat &Tares Matt 13 expressing let them all grow together then rip up the tares to be burned. I see John 17:15 which Jesus prays that we will not be take out of the world but that we are kept safe. I see Acts 10:34 saying God is not a respecter of persons.
I cannot tell you that you are wrong and I am right for I have no authority given to me that you all don’t already possess. I can tell you that I have studied this subject and it comes down to one thing for me.
GOD IS LOVE.
Spencer Burke (founder of The Ooze) just wrote a book called A Heretic’s Guide to Eternity, and last I heard, they were giving out free copies to bloggers. I’ve got mine sitting right here next to me. It looks like it deals with many of these issues, from the milennial arguments to universalism to the orthodox views of the eschaton.
If you’d like to inquire about free copies of the book (if they have any left), e-mail Michael at zoecarnate [at] gmail [dot] com.
Amen that, Keith.
I just got back from Europe. I heard the same glory of the grape I heard in 1991. It is said that only monks made the wine for the towns because it is so spiritual. Christ often spoke of wine and His first miracle was wine from water. You grow this earthly grape, it receives both the sun and the rain. In due time you harvest it and put it in its bottle(tomb). Whatever happens is magic and in due time you open the bottle to fine wine. It is a metaphor on the life of man. It is so respected. Seems so different than our thoughts over here.
This whole discussion reminds me of an early episode of The Simpsons in which all the children were in Sunday school. The teacher was teaching about heaven, and this little girl with purple hair spoke up and said, “Wouldn’t eternal bliss get kind of boring after a while?”
I know that eternity for Christians is going to be unimaginably good. I don’t have any more insight than anyone else; I’ve never been there. But I have a notion that eternity for Christ’s people is going to be a time when all of the sorrow that pervades this life–death, friendships that grow distant over time, having to endure injustice and knowing that there are people enduring injustices that I have little power to remedy–will be changed. It’s kind of odd, but when I read The Lord of the Rings, the elves get more and more “real” to me, because they seem to be the only group that knows and carries sorrow with them.
Maybe I’m different. But I guess I just think that the most terrible part of life isn’t so much that people do bad things to one another, but that “things fall apart”, that the defining characteristic of human life and consciousness is sorrow–which has to do both with the fact that people do bad things to each other and with the fact that even when they don’t, bad things sometimes happen.
In regard to what Keith wrote on Oct. 18th, I believe that historian Dave MacPherson’s Google contribution “Deceiving and Being Deceived” thoroughly answers the Pseudo-Ephraem and Morgan Edwards claims and then shows with documentation that Margaret Macdonald was the real “pretrib origin” culprit. He also has Google pieces entitled “X-Raying Margaret” and “Pretrib Rapture Diehards” which further clarifying things. All most interesting. J.E. (Mac’s “Scholars Weigh My Research” lists endorsements from top scholars also.)