Great time at the Zoe Conference. It was nice to see many of you there.
On my way back, I got to gather with a small crowd at DFW to watch the Tigers celebrate. It’s been a long time since I’ve been so happy about a prediction being wrong (that the Cards would face the Yankees in the Series). I love the Tigers.
On the plane I read SI’s all-time baseball list: their top 25 players of all time. A few disappointments for this Cardinals fan. A-Rod at SS instead of Ozzie? I know that his four-hundred-something HRs is impressive, but you might have a hard time convincing some Yankees fans that he’s even the best SS on their team, much less one of the best of all times. It’s early to include Sir Albert, but here in a few years someone is going to have to be bumped off the list for Pujols.
Yogi and Johnny Bench are the two catchers. Fair enough. But you could certainly make a case for Pudge. (Old Rangers bias there.) And I guess I’d rather see Greg Maddux than Warren Spahn. And Bob Gibson rather than either of them, though I know I couldn’t defend that statistically. Just fondly remembering that ‘68 season. Glad they didn’t include Bonds.
Here’s the list:
Pitchers: Spahn, Roger Clemens, Cy Young, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson, Sandy Koufax, Mariano Rivera, Lefty Grove, and Dennis Eckersley.
Infielders: Lou Gehrig, Jackie Robinson, Stan Musial, Rogers Hornsby, Honus Wagner, Mike Schmidt, A-Rod, Bench, and Berra.
Outfielders: Hank Aaron, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Ted Williams, and Joe Dimaggio.
Any suggestions?
Yeah, I’d go with the Wizard over A-Rod at SS as well.
Another good call on Maddux being left off the list — I vaguely remember an issue of SI in the early ’90s with the then-Braves pitcher on the cover and the headline, “The Best Pitcher You’ve Ever Seen.” And he gets left off SI’s all-time list?
Nolan Ryan, pitcher!
Take Mariano Rivera off the list.
Add Mark McGwire.
Go A’s! (I’ll keep saying it)
Mike, sorry I didn’t get to talk to you at Zoe. I thought this morning’s lesson was particulary great. It was a homerun as far am I was concerned. Great job!
Ricky Henderson HAS to have a spot somewhere.
All he did was keep on breaking every record he’d ever come near, including lead-off hits, stolen bases [that no one will every come close to matching, imho] just to mention two!
No wonder he talks to himself, no one else seems to know he’s even there. An example: when he hit 3000 the Padres were on the road and he was traded before the hometown crowd was able ot celebrate with him.
The sad part is he is no longer useful to major league teams but his love for baseball is such that he’s playing in minor leagues anywhere they’ll let him play. I’ve a very soft spot in my heart for Ricky, in case you missed it. LOL
Pete Rose…or is he banned from this, too?
Nolan for Pete’s sake!
Tough to narrow it down to just 25 players but if i was putting together an all star team my right fielder is Roberto Clemente and Bob Gibson is one of my pitchers. I guess for Ricky Hendersons sake its nice to know somebody has a soft spot in their heart for him, and i’m sure he thinks he should be in the top 25 players of all time. If your not sure just ask him he will tell you. Pete Rose….if I was betting i would say he was banned.
I had a thing for Dale Murphy when I was a kid.
I didn’t get a chance to greet you at Zoe, but wanted to send out a big thank you for your part in leading. Your lessons on Jacob’s unique experiences with God were inspiring and captivating. You have a true preaching gift, and I’m thankful to benefit from it every now and then!
Oh, and also thank you for bringing the Maxwells. I had always heard of their talents in art but this was my first chance to experience watching them in action. Amazing!
Kathy, you’re right about Henderson. And don’t forget all of those leadoff homeruns. In terms of value, what could do more to set the tone for a game than “Top of the 1st, 2nd batter, no outs, score: 1-0″ ? It’s the equivalent of returning the opeing kickoff for a touchdown, and Henderson did it more than anyone else.
We’re same page people, Frank.
AND we’ve not even mentioned Ricky’s comedic value. Just watching him as he lectured himself either in the outfield or at bat was high comedy and then he’d get down to the seriousness of setting yet another record. IMO, he’s probably the greatest lead off man in baseball history. Thanks for the back up. 
Shouldn’t there be two lists: with-steroids and without?
Mike,Mike,Mike,
Your Cardinal bias is way too strong here.
The Wizard of Oz was a defensive wizard but that’s about it-not much offense.He belongs at or near the top of an all-time Gold Glove list for SS but not an all-time team.He could not possibly have saved more runs than his SS counterparts to make up for the extra runs they created.
And Gibby was a warrior,particularly in the World Series,but the 68 season was an abberation all over baseball(ask Denny McClain,Luis Tiant,and a host of others),and as great os Gibby was,he doesn’t belong on that list,either.
But if Albert keeps it up another 10 years,he might get on it.
Actually I thought SI did a pretty good job-hard to argue many of their choices.
Sir Albert is great, but he’ll have to step up the run production if he wants to have a shot at bumping off the Iron Horse. Gehrig AVERAGED 149 RBIs and 141 runs per 162 games (I recognize that he played in an era of 154 game seasons). He also hit .340 lifetime–so Pujols can’t afford any sort of drop-off, and in fact probably needs to improve.
I agree that Maddux should be on the list instead of Spahn, and I probably wouldn’t put Jackie Robinson up there in the “All-Time Greatest” infielders category–I’d put in Charlie Gehringer instead. Think I’d also leave off the Eck in favor of Trevor Hoffman. I’d also replace Mickey Mantle in favor of Jimmie Foxx. And what’s up with Musial being in the infield? He played 2/3 of his games in the outfield!!
Vada Pinson.
DU
May I interject the observation that the Padres aren’t exactly rolling over, nor giving in to the Cards. Tied 4-4 in the bottom of the 5th.
GO PADRES!!!!
The Cardinals are movin’ on.
I echo a couple of others–NOLAN RYAN!!!
I would also have to add Barry Bonds. Even prior to his “Roid” days, he was one of the best all-time players ever.
As for Zoe, it was awesome!
Glad Zoe was such a success again. I sincerely wondered if SI’s selection of A-Rod was some sort of joke - he’s only on there if you’re looking at the all-time fantasy league team. Alan Trammel, Ozzie, Dave Concepcion, Maury Wills, Louis Apparicio, Cal Ripken, Jr., Robin Yount - all played well in the clutch - A-Rod does not.
And, it looks like King George will replace Joe Torre with Lou Pinnella? All because his all-star line-up got swept by some young Tiger pitchers.
Finally - Hook ‘em Horns! The ACU dads connection of McCoy to Shipley sealed the deal - good stuff.
There are 2 pitchers who should be on this list and aren’t, first off Nolan Ryan as others have mentioned. Secondly Steve Carlton should be on there and that’s not just my Phillies bais speaking.
Anybody here heard of Steve Carlton?? Had to be one of the greatest lefties of all time! For those who knock Ozzie for his lack of offense… His defense prevented about as many runs as some batter drive in… and he did it on Astroturf. Ozzie and Bowa are two shortstops who played most of their careers on turf. They were both great because of what they could do with their gloves. Cal Ripken was great defensively but could never cover the ground these two guys can. Natural turf make is possible to add more pop at short than the astroturf days. I’d take Jeter over A-Rod at short as well.
I have to vote for Roberto Clemente too. I saw him gun Larry Bowa at the plate on a fly ball to right field. Bowa was fast!!!! A pitcher couldn’t have thrown a better ball from the mound. Great hitter and great fielder with maybe the best arm from right field ever!!
You’re right about Pudge. It’s not a bias. Had Rodriguez played for the Yankees, there would have been much debate over who the greatest defensive catcher of all time was. That he played for the Rangers, Marlins and Tigers, however, kept ESPN from entertaining these ideas.
Concerning Nolan Ryan, you all are welcome to read the postscript to my comment at
http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=10020592&postID=116027111138942765
SI is probably not prejudiced against Texans. A more likely explanation is that, in the case of a guy who threw a baseball at 106 miles per hour, the editors did not realize he had pitched it.
Mike,
No Roberto Clemente? His life was cut short, but what a great arm, bat and life!
Mike, I have been in 19 “Green Cathedrals” and the best I ever saw (not necessarily the best there ever was) were: Warren Spahn, Bob Gibson, Willie Mays, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Mickey Mantle, Frank Robinson, Don Drysdale, Ken Boyer, Ernie Banks, Al Kaline, et al. I believe the best baseball was played from post-WW II to when expansion came in full bore and watered down the talent in the early 60s.
I’m not sure who “Tim” is, but why did he say to remove Mariano Rivera? I suppose you don’t want to have the greatest closer of all time on the list of the all time greatest baseball players?!?!?!? That article has me wanting to read the book. I say they need to add two Negro Leaguer’s: Satchel Paige and Josh Gibson to the list as well.
Sorry, much to your dismay, Mike, I am an AVID Yankee fan. On that note, I’ll say that the celebration in Detroit was the most amazing thing I’ve ever seen. What a way to get your fan base built up in one night like it was never gone. I’m pulling for the Tigers!
And I’ll add another vote for the Ryan Express.
The greatest closer of all time? He’s already on there. Dennis Eckersley. Besides, I can think of several closers who are better than Rivera. John Smoltz, Bobby Thigpen, Trevor Hoffman, Lee Smith, John Franco Goose Gossage, Rollie Fingers. I could go on. Rivera is on the list, but not at the top.
Don’t be mad that the Yankees got used. The Tigers will soon follow. mwah ah ah!
I agree that those guys are great closers, but no one, including Eck, has ted the way Rivera has (and Smoltz would be ineligible after having spent only one season in that role). Sure he’s behind Hoffman and Smith on the all-time saves list, but that’s just because he hasn’t done it as long. The biggest thing is that his playoff ERA is below 1.00. I believe it’s around 0.88. If I had a one-run lead in the bottom of the 9th, game 7 of the World Series, I’d go with Mo every time (unless he’s facing Luis Gonzalez).
I’m a little upset that the Yankess “got used.” But more than anything it’s the result of a horrible approach to building a championship team. You can buy bats, but you can’t buy pitchers. If you grab a pitcher after a great season, you’re too late (see Jeff Weaver, Carl Pavano, Jaret Wright, Randy Johnson)
I wouldn’t go buy my A’s World Series tickets just yet…
He’s behind Franco too.
W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV IP
197 171 3.50 1071 361 100 20 390 3285.2
Eckersley’s 100 complete games versus Rivera’s zero. I wouldn’t only say he’s one of the best closers of all time, but probably one of the best pitchers. When you only pitch one inning like Rivera does (and I’d like to see how many of those have inherited runners) your chances of getting runs and hits is greatly diminished, especially when you’re on a hitting team like the Yankees. And Trevor Hoffman’s still going too. Rivera is at most #4 on the all time list.
By the way, it’s a shame about Cory Lidle. Has everyone heard?
I’m certainly not arguing that Eck was a bad pitcher, he was obviously a great one. But here’s Rivera’s line:
G IP BB K W L BAA ERA
720 881.2 226 783 59 40 .213 2.29
And here are his career postseason stats:
G K BB SV ERA
73 87 15 34 0.80
9 Postseason saves came in the World Series.
Eckersley, as a CLOSER, had only three seasons with an ERA under 2.00, compared to Mo’s seven. But, Eck, as a CLOSER, had FOUR SEASONS with an ERA over 4.00, including one that almost hit 5.00!!! Mo’s only season with an ERA over 3.00 was his rookie year when he wasn’t even a closer. Everything else has been sub-3.00 or better.
Maybe as a pitcher Eckersley would win out. For one thing he spent 24 years in the league and ted until the very end. But as a CLOSER, I really cannot see how you can argue that Eck is better than Mo. The stats don’t lie.
Okay, I’ve spent waaaaaayyyyy too much time in this discussion.
When Rivera clocks over 3000 IP, then we can compare the two.
You must be thinking of when he played for the Cubs back in 85 or 86. Easy to get a low ERA when you play for the Yankees. What about when Eck played for the Indians, or the Red Sox?
By the way, Eckersley actually CLOSED from 1987 to 1992, 12 years after playing as a starter. He still saved 236 games, and NEVER posted an ERA above 3.03 (and posted a 0.61 in 1990) during those years as a CLOSER.
He was also the AL Cy Young Award winner and MVP in 1992, the season he posted 51 saves. No pitcher since has won both honors in the same season, including Rivera. Only one reliever since Eckersley has been awarded the Cy Young: Eric Gagné in the NL in 2003.
He also had a 20 win-50 save season, something only John Smoltz has matched. 50 saves AND 20 wins.
These reasons, and more, are how I can say he’s a better closer and a better pitcher.
And I’m not sure who ted is.
I think you’ve lost the original argument - we’re discussing the greatest CLOSER of all time. Logging 3000 IP means nothing. Rivera has been a closer for 9 seasons, while Eck worked late innings for 12 - fairly comparable since Mo is still going.
Yes, Eck won the Cy and MVP awards, but Mo has been a heavy favorite several years for the Cy Young, and voters now days don’t look to pitchers for the MVP. However, Mo was the MVP of the World Series, and has been ALDS and ALCS MVP, not to mention receiving more recent awards such as DHL Delivery Man of the Year twice (essentially the best closer in the league).
If Eck closed from ‘87-’92, what’d he do from ‘93-’98? From the site where I’m drawing my stats, it shows he closed those years as well (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlbhist/alltime/playercard?playerId=3874&type=1) According to these stats listed on ESPN’s website, Eck posted ERA’s in 1993-1998 of:
93 - 4.16 - OAK
94 - 4.26 - OAK
95 - 4.83 - OAK
96 - 3.30 - StL
97 - 3.91 - StL
98 - 4.77 - BOS
Again, I’m not saying that Eck was a bad, or even mediocre pitcher. Obviously by being in the HOF, he’s one of the greatest of all time. But Rivera will go down as the greatest CLOSER of all time.
Finally, I’m not sure why it would be easier to post a lower ERA while playing for the Yankees. An ERA belongs only to the pitcher, not the entire team. The Yanks have had a lot of pitchers with high ERA’s.
PS - “ted” originally said “dominated” but my filter on my office computer didn’t allow me to write it.
Players score runs on a whole team. If players miss catches or make bad plays, the runs get attributed to the pitcher. This is why it matters.
In those years, he didn’t pitch in the regular rotation. When Tony LaRussa left the A’s after 1995 to St. Louis, he arranged to bring Eck along with him. By this time Eckersley was past his prime as a reliever, but he stayed with the team for two seasons, including a division winner in 1996.
He signed on with the Red Sox for one final season, 1998, and again was part of a post-season qualifier. Following that, he retired. We’ll see how Rivera pitches in his last 6 years, provided he can last 24. Eck had 100 complete games. If Rivera can post that and still be a good reliever, I’ll give it to him. It won’t happen though, since he’s already passing his prime.
All I know is Rivera pitched a 5.51 ERA in 95, and has only been pitching 11 years.
We’re still forgetting about Rollie Fingers, Bruce Sutter, Lee Smith, etc. who pitched on averaged two or more innings in their closing appearances, unlike Eck, Rivera, and Hoffman. The ONLY thing that sets Rivera apart is his postseason work, and it’s only because the Yankees got there that he played there in the first place. And they only got there because they bought their teams. Of course, look at where it got them this year. A-Rod.
A few things…
- If a player misses a catch and a runner reaches base, that’s considered an error. If that runner scores, it’s an UNearned run, not counting against a pitcher’s ERA (EARNED run average). The team has absolutely nothing to do with an ERA. Now, it might influence wins and losses, but an ERA is a pitcher’s own. Besides, the Yankees aren’t exactly known for their defense (weak arms - Damon, Bernie; error-prone - ARod, Giambi, Sheffield; “lost-a-step” - Jeter, Bernie)
- You keep going back to Eck as a starter. That’s not the discussion. Rivera doesn’t have to last 24 seasons to be compared with Eckersley as a closer, Eck only closed for 12. Relievers don’t post ANY complete games - they’re relievers, not starters. And if having a 34-save season (on a team that allowed the fewest save situations in the league) with a 1.80 ERA makes you past your prime, then I guess it’s time for Mo to hang it up.
- Rivera’s 5.51 ERA in 95 was as a starter, and a starter called up from Triple-A Columbus (where he was a closer) halfway through the season when everyone knew he wasn’t ready, but the Yanks were desperate.
- The Yankees four consecutive World Series wins were NOT the result of buying a team. The core of those teams were either long-time Yankees (Posada, Strawberry, Paul O’Neil, Scott Brosious, etc.), no-name role players (Knoblauch, Rondell White, etc.), or players who came up through their farm system (Jeter, Rivera, Bernie Williams, Andy Pettitte, etc.). It was in 2001 when they started “buying” their teams by adding the likes of Mike Mussina, Roger Clemens, Hideki Matsui, Gary Sheffield, Jason Giambi, Randy Johnson, A-Rod, etc. that they started losing each year in the playoffs. Everyone accuses the Yankees of buying championships, but when they were winning all those World Series titles, they did it the way teams do it today - solid pitching from young hurlers, a powerful bullpen, and playing small ball (get the lead guy on, knock him over with a bunt, score him on a base hit). THAT’S how they won, not with the checkbook. Their current set up only proves that you CAN’T win by buying up every slugger in the league.
Just to put an end to my time spent on this discussion, I’ll concede that you’re the winner. Eckersley is the better pitcher. You win.
Scott Brosius wasn’t a long time Yankee. In fact, he came from the A’s!
Give me Ripken at shortstop any day and Mantle in center and I’ll build my team around those two. Ripken’s streak is the most amazing accomplishment in the hisory of sports in my opinion. He did it while playing one of the toughest positions, if not the toughest and the level of play he maintained while doing so is remarkable[both offensively and defensively]. Mantle is in my opinion is the greatest athlete in history. Nobody but nobody possessed the power and speed he had. Most of his career was played on one leg and Heaven only knows how many games Mantle played drunk or with a hang-over. It’s one thing for one player to chase Ruth’s record but to have two players on the same team chasing Ruth is simply unbelievable. And without steroids!
Definitely not Jackie Robinson at 2B. If Honsby is your 3B then either Nap Lajoie, Charlie Gehringer or Eddie Collins at 2B. If you want to throw defense out the window, then Hornsby at 2B and Jimmie Foxx at 3B (yes, he played a little bit there as well).
Outfield picks are solid but toigh to leave Stan Musial off the roster. One of only 3 players with over 6,000 total career bases.
Cy Young ? Maybe on longevity but check out the stats on Grover Cleveland Alexander.