Can you say “free falling”? It’s hard for a Cardinals fan to watch. Can Pujols pitch? (What a time to lose a closer!) The Cards’ winning percentage is down to .513 — and they’re still in first! What a division. If this doesn’t stop, now after eight straight losses, it could be one of the great crashes in baseball history. Let’s hope not!
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Today Governor Swartzeneggar will be at Pepperdine to sign a major “greenhouse” bill — seeking to limit greenhouse gases. (Remember Kyoto?) So glad that he chose to do it at Pepperdine. I’m very thankful for Andy Benton and his administration and for their concern about environmental concerns.
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Confession: I like the “man law” commercials. Call me shallow. I still like them.
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We were a Wednesday night church family growing up. Questions were never asked. When it was 7:00, we were in class. At 7:45, we were in the auditorium for a couple songs and an invitation. And those are good memories.
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I know so many people who live every day with burdens and pain . . . and faithfulness. They are heroic.
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The Texas Supreme Court has an interesting case before it. Six years ago, Peggy Lee Penley went to her counselor to confide in him about the trouble in her marriage and an affair she was having. But her counselor was also her pastor, C. L. Westbrook, who informed the congregation of her adultery and instructed members to shun her (as their church law said to). To complicate the matter, Penley “quit the church” before her pastor initiated the disciplinary measures.
Now the question is: Was he her counselor, possibly subject to a negligence lawsuit, or was he her pastor, probably protected by the First Amendment?
Lots of important questions could be asked about the actions of the pastor and Crossland Community Bible Church. But there are even deeper questions about the freedom of churches to teach, lead, and discipline as they feel compelled to. I’m guessing lots of Texas ministers will be keeping an eye on this ruling!
And did your family commute an hour or more each way to work? Did you have 3-4 hours of homework each night? Were all of the other nights packed full in your week? The times have changed. I’m not knocking Weds night time, but for some it is difficult to be there. Many families don’t get home from work until 6:30 and the kids have been in daycare all of that time. I would much rather see us turn it into a “family night” at home. But then it would probably end up filled somewhere else…
Going to see the Cards tonight, Saturday, and Sunday. I’ve been to 2 games this year and they won both. Hopefully I can keep the streak going. They need more than a closer right now.
Traci - No. No. And sometimes. I wouldn’t disagree with what you said–in fact it’s very true that much has changed. I’m not making judgments about people today; I’m reflecting on how important that was to me. I woke up this morning thinking about how significant that was in my own life. Thanks for allowing me to clarify.
You mean some families DIDN’T go on Wednesday nights?
Wednesday nights aren’t as tough for me as Sunday nights…
We don’t have Sunday night assemblies. That’s a time we’ve tried to keep open for small groups. Our small group meets three times a month — leaving one or two each month open.
Mike, what I enjoyed about Wed night as a teen was not the 3 songs and a quick 5 min sermon. It was seeing my friends that I had not seen since Sunday. As shallow as it might sound, Wed. night chuch was a chance for me to fellowship with other Christian Teens.
My Senior year we had a great teacher where we would just sit around for an hour and discuss different church topics. That was quite fun as well and truly challenged my mind on things such as drinking, womens role, gambling, rock and roll music and other things.
Be careful what you wish for, Mike. Remember when the Rangers put Canseco in to pitch a few years ago and he hurt his arm and was out the rest of the season. The Cards certainly cannot afford to lose Albert!
At our new church, we have “Refuge” on Wed. nights. It’s when the teens meet at the building for worship, etc. The rest of the congregation meets in house churches during the week, so the teens and the adult volunteers are the only ones at the building. It’s new to me, but it’s a time I look forward to every week. I’m so excited about what we have planned for tonight that I want to fast-forward the day to go ahead and get there.
I remember thinking the family on “Eight is Enough” was going to hell because the show came on Wed. nights so obviously, they weren’t in church.
That sounds great, Deana. Right now we’re in the process of thinking about the future of Wednesday evenings — given the realities that Traci talked about above (including the general exhaustion so many people are feeling!).
In my memories of childhood, Wednesday nights are an important part of my formation. But the question to ask is not: How do we keep Wednesday nights exactly as they were forty years ago? but rather:
How do we, in this context, provide for teaching, fellowship, and restoration?
It may look VERY different!
I would love to see more times of fellowship with teens. At my present church it seems that every time the teens get together, 95% of the time is devoted to a devotional. We have a huge teen group and many of these kids are spread out all over the city in different schools and never to get each other except for Sunday morning and Wed. night. I would love to see a little more time for fellowship instead of 10 min. before service and after.
Tim - I think you’re onto something. What I often feel about people on Wednesday night is that they desperately need time to just be together, to visit, to have fun, to pray. The challenge is to figure out a way to do that while still providing time for teaching and for equipping.
Our Small Group used to meet on Sunday nights (and we don’t have church on Wed. night - that’s when MOST other Small Groups meet) Anyway, we just decided to go ahead & meet on Wednesday instead because Sundays used to be a LOT of time with friends & then nothing during the week. It’s nice to get a little recharge during the week. 9But it DOES make a difficult night for my kids’ bedtimes!!!)
On the Cards/Astros - round 3 - who would have thunk it a week ago?Thanks for the this topic Mike. The only times I ever recall my mom being hurried was on Wed. nights. Home for a quick bath, deli food and sprint up to church 4 minutes away - and that was 35 years ago. I came home exhausted from practice one Wed. as a high schooler, ate a bite and laid down on the couch. My parents left me there to sleep and went on to church without me. I woke up in a confused stupor at 8 pm, and thought the rapture had occurred.
My week has been a great one since the Indians eliminated the White Sox from the playoffs in a 14 - 1 hammering on Monday night.
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I rode the Joy Bus on Wednesday night and led singing as a teenager. I loved Wednesday nights for the fellowship too. The Wednesday night classes growing up were not very substantive because of the time limits imposed. But seeing friends and worshipping together was a great lift to me as a teenager in a family whose parents did not attend.
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I love the GEICO commercial where Burt Bacharach sings and plays in the background while the person talks about their accident.
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Does any remember the TV “preacher” from CA that smoked cigars and showed home movies of his horses while he preached? Is he still around?
“How do we keep Wednesday nights exactly as they were forty years ago?”
Not so fast Mike…..it really does have to start saying “FIFTY” years ago now….
Well, I was going back to when I was ten, not when I was born.
We have a fellowship meal on Wednesday nights, from 5:30 to 6:20. It’s a minimum fee ($3 a person/$6 for your whole family), and its done so much for us as a congregation.
2 weeks ago at our home church we were missing quite a few people so we skipped the lesson and just fellowshipped for 2 hours. It was WONDERFUL. I love our lesson times and never want to leave them but once in a while it is good to “take a break” and just talk about kids, movies, music, schools…LIFE!
That’s great Tim. I think churches desperately need more times like that. The teaching/preaching/worship is needed and a blessing but the being together and sharing of lives is equally important although often neglected.
Wednesday nights were great… Sunday nights, not so much. I’d usually leave the house with strains of the Walt Disney show theme music in my ears, wondering what childhood delight I was missing out on.
C. L. Westbrook: pastor or counselor? How about idiot. Sigh.
It’s spelled “Schwarzenegger.” Don’t mess with the terminator.
Jeff, I agree with you. The biggest thing I hated on Sunday Night was the “The table has been left prepared for those unable to attend Sunday Morning.”
Re: Penley case.
This is definitely why therapists are cautioned against dual-role relationships. AS her counselor, he violated her confidentiality by sharing her concern with the church and is (and absolutely should be) legally liable for that violation. Now, as her pastor perhaps he did have an obligation to discuss it with the congregation– but if she was seeing him AS a counselor as the primary role, he definitely violated her trust. It also raises interesting questions about how effective he can be as a therapist if he’s going around sharing his client’s confidences with the entire congregation– that has to do a number on rapport. And yes, churches have a right to teach/lead/discipline as they feel compelled… but that is equally met by the right of the therapy client to have their confidences respected. For the pastor/counselor that may mean walking a fine line as they try to honor both roles… but having a dual-role doesn’t free one from the ethical and legal mandates to do no harm, avoid dual roles, and maintain client confidentiality. *sigh* And people wonder why Christian therapists get a bad name….
I think Sunday night the way we remember it is probably a thing of the past. I preach for a church that still has a traditional Sunday night service, but is slowly warming to the idea of small groups “instead” of a service at the building and not small groups “in addition” to a service at the building. To me Wednesday nights is something that we need to fight for, and by that I mean to find a way to keep it alive. When I was a kid it was my lifeline. It many ways it still is. I am glad that we have the freedom to do things differently, but if we are not careful we will end up with some kind of internet service with the contribution given through automatic draft. By the way. I love the Yankees. I grew up in Memphis, a real Cards town. I loved the Yankees before they were the greatest team money could buy. I hope that is not grounds for disfellowship.
I like Wednesday nights — for the reasons already given. We have a big pavilion at the site of our new building, and sometimes (in the summer) we will meet out there on Wednesdays. If done right, Wednesday night can really be the Peak of the Week.
It is Sunday nights I could do without. We still have a traditional Sunday night service (basically a rerun of Sunday morning, but with a different sermon). I envy you preachers who only have to prepare one sermon each week!
And don’t get me started on Sunday night Communion. If we’re going to eat the Lord’s Supper, we should ALL eat it. It is a communal meal, not a religious rite to put you in good standing with God for another week.
Like Mike,my family growing up never missed any service and it was never questioned…and I didn’t mind it,in fact,I enjoyed it.
I realize times have changed and we haven’t had Sunday night services for nearly a decade,other than small groups and they are no more than 1-2 times a month.
I don’t feel any guilt about that or any less spiritual because if it,but I do sometimes wonder-Sunday night was the first to go,Wednesday night is in the process of going,what gathering time will be left to go?
At what point does a family,a fellowship,cease to be one because we are all too tired to meet?
Here’s what I would do for a Wednesday night series or quarter, not sure if it would work all the time. I would have everyone meet together for a fellowship meal, which would provide a great time together and eliminate the rush on Wednesday nights to fix supper. After the meal, release everyone to participate in some type of random act or acts of kindness around the community. Help someone fix a flat tire. Help people load their groceries. Go service people’s cars. Visit a nursing home and sing for them. Take some of the food that had been prepared and go feed hungry people. You would start by praying for the Lord to lead you to someone who needs the love of Christ, and then go for it. No telling what might happen. Go as families. Go as groups. Two by two would be the “authorized” way to go. Each meal from then on would be a great time of sharing where the Lord led you the last week and what happened.
I would call Wednesday nights a T.R.A.C.K. Meet - T otally R andom A cts of C hristian K indness.
Or not…..
A .514 winning percentage and they are still in first. You can those my favorite team, the Pirates, for helping the Cardinals. Nothign liek a 65 - 92 season for the Pirates. Maybe next year they will play a high school. ha ha
I was a Wednesday night child growing up, but I asked questions. I asked why I had to be taken out of a ball game to go to services on Wednesday. I only asked a time or two. My father taught me awesome respect for the Creator, His Son and the Spirit. I thank my father for teaching me about the Father.
Now I attend Bible study on Wednesday and Thursday nights; a Tuesday Night study is coming soon.
Good thoughts!
I’d usually leave the house with strains of the Walt Disney show theme music in my ears, wondering what childhood delight I was missing out on.
Oh, and what about The Wizard of Oz? My freshman year at Harding I skipped church the Sunday night that TWoO was on because I’d NEVER SEEN IT. I’d always tried to be “sick” when I was little, but my parents were too smart. They called me on it every time.
But once I was on my own, I was bound and determined to see it all the way through.
(This was before video rentals, those of you who are saying, “Why didn’t you just rent it?” The Wizard was a big once-a-year thing!)
Oh, and Brad? We do that at our congregation. Once a month, we have Tuesday Night for the Master, and it’s just as you described!
We don’t have Sunday night services, either. There are a few small groups that have started, one our home which meets only the 2nd and 4th Sunday night in a month. We are really enjoying that. We still have Wednesday night classes, but only a very small number participate in it. We are having a fellowship meal tonight with Mexican dishes. I am bringing guacamole and cheese enchildalas and spanish rice and a cake! Ymmmmm, I am already hunger, but I am more hungry for the fellowship!
And….I agree with Jeff Slater. We are not Catholic and need the ritual to get us to heaven. I even believe we can have communion on any other day or time than Sunday morning!!!! Wow, that being said, have a great day!
Cardinals? Pitching? I was not aware that the baseball season was still going.
Good for the Governator! Now, lets see if it will help.
I love the man law ads also. I had no idea you could hit the top of a beer bottle with the bottom of another beer bottle and make it foam up. I realize they passed a man law banning the practice, but I cannot wait to try that. Probably at next summer’s Sub-T-16 reunion.
We never missed Wednesday nights growing up. Always complained about going until Jr. high started, then could not wait to go. That is where all the girls were.
Interesting case for the Texas Supreme Court. It takes them forever to make a decision these days however, so do not hold your breath waiting for an opinion.
I wish I could do Wednesday nights. But my son’s bedtime is at 7:30. We live nearly half an hour from our church building.
We were able to do Wednesdays when we had Summer Connection. It was the first time in nearly three years that my husband and I were able to participate TOGETHER in Wednesday nights. Normally, one of us goes and the other stays home with our son.
Mike, I loved your comment: How do we, in this context, provide for teaching, fellowship, and restoration?
Being a living dynamic Body of Christ is wonderful!
Wednesday nights went from fond memories to obligations for some of us. Then the Lord provided a fresh thing. In our church family we meet in small groups all over town. Now we have a time of refuge and refreshment. It’s a time of friendship, prayer, encouragement and study. All the groups are somewhat different. We meet about 90 minutes in our group. We have challenged each other to grow, we have held each other during pain and we spend a good bit of time in laughter. We have been doing this in various forms for over 10 years. This is something I look forward to and depend upon.
Mike, it’s not your year. The Cards, even if they do hang on, won’t get to the World Series. The Angels are out. The Rangers and Astros…don’t make me laugh.
And then there’s that team you love so much; that team that everyone (EVERYONE) counted out just a couple of months ago; that team that had no chance of making the playoffs - the beloved Yankees! Not only did they make the playoffs but will probably end the season with the best record in baseball despite a huge slump by one of its best players, A-Rod.
I take it there will be no “blog bet” this year, Mike, since all of your teams seem poised to crash. Bummer. I was looking forward to a captive audience here at preahermike.
Kathy - Do the groups include children?
Joe -
Don’t go there, brother. Surely you’re still licking your wounds from last year’s bet.
The-Team-That-Will-Not-Be-Named is having a good year. Money has an amazing ability to buy talent.
Let’s get to the play-offs. I’m guessing another wager can be brokered between us. I’m still saying, The-Team-That-Will-Not-Be-Named, the Evil Empire, won’t win it all.
Wednesday night church was something that we always did (and still do) and I never really thought about not going. I’m sure I questioned it when I was a teenager, but I crave that meeting with my christian brothers and sisters mid-week. Our 3 kids all go to bed at 7:30 as well, they just know on Wednesday nights they get to stay up later for bible class and fellowship. Of course, it is easier when you don’t have to drive so far to church. Being in a small town has its advantages.
As a kid who grew up in a dry White County (Searcy, AR, that is), I’m learning all kinds of things about beer from these man law commercials and they are so funny. There is something about the mix of the men in those commercials…someone told us the other night that you could do the same bottle trick with cream soda! Why are the beer commercials always the funniest?
Some of the groups have children. When we have been part of those groups we took turns teaching them in another room. But many of the groups choose to take the kids to our building. We have children’s classes and activities at our building for all the elementary children and the teens do their thing together. There’s a meal for the kids around 6 or 6:30, then kid’s devotional and classes then a time to wind down, do homework for school or get ready for bed (little ones can bring PJs and a toothbrush so they will be ready to go from the car to bed). Everyone is picked up by 8pm. The adults who tend the children and serve meals have formed their own “small group” that serves together and builds relationships.
Our small group meets in a home at 6:30 and the ones picking up kids leave about 7:50.
Actually, it’s 7 in a row. Tonight will make 8. That will be the third time this year they will have lost 8 in a row… and still be in first place. My bet is that they do lose tonights game and then go on to win the division. Who would have thought we’d be worse off after Izzy went down?
I actually thought Satan owned the TV stations cause he’d put such good stuff on Wednesday and Sunday nights. How awful to send kids to church with Danny White and the Cowboys leading the 49rs in the last playoff game before the Super Bowl. If I’d have been at home praying, perhaps THE Catch would have never happened.
On the Supreme Court case, confidentiality is more important than church accountability. Especially if the pastor is a licensed counselor/therapist. If the pastor had really wanted the church to know, he should have counseled her from the perspective of confessing to the church on her own. But that pastor had no legal right to divulge that information. As a licensed counselor, he violated confidentiality. If he wants to continue practicing as a pastor and be able to discuss his clients with the church, then he should forfeit his license and make clients aware of the fact that he is not operating under professional standards.
That CA preacher who smoked cigars was named Gene something. Unfortunately, he died a couple of years ago. Christian TV hasn’t been the same since. (Maybe worse.)
Like many others, we grew up with three church services a week, but our family didn’t go to Wednesday night because my dad was a teacher/coach and there were always practices or games on Wednesdays. That Sunday night Communion ritual was dreadful, as was the singing (usually the substitute song leaders that weren’t “good enough” for Sunday morning and a small number of people scattered in a big sanctuary).
I am no longer CoC. My small group meets every other week after Sunday worship for a two-hour (more or less) time of eating, prayer and discussion about the morning lesson. Sunday night is off. Wednesday night may have a membership class or other special teaching time, but doesn’t involve the whole church.
But for me personally, I am involved with church ministry or meetings every Sunday (for 3-5 hours) Tuesday (4-5 hours) and every other Saturday (3 hours). That’s the minimum, and its mostly inwardly focused on the church. I have often asked myself the question that I haven’t see anyone else pose yet:
How often does the church need to meet for its own edification/fellowship before its members are filled up enough to make time for ministry outside our walls? Seems like many of us “play church” for a lot of hours and don’t have much time left in the day to be witnesses to the world. This question bothers me from time to time, and I personally don’t have a good answer yet.
Having been both a counselor and a minister, it seems to me that confidentiality would come first. I know being an armchair quarterback is easy and actually being in that situation is something entirely different. It seems like a better course of action to keep that confidential and to try to work through those problems, probably referring her to a Christian counselor who believes in the value of holding marriages together. If she remained in this for some time and was not repentant, then another course of action might be considered. If people don’t think they can have some sense of confidentiality, they are not going to come to us with their problems and we end up ineffective.
Can you say “free falling”? It’s hard for a Cardinals fan to watch. Can Pujols pitch? (What a time to lose a closer!) The Cards’ winning percentage is down to .513 — and they’re still in first! What a division. If this doesn’t stop, now after eight straight losses, it could be one of the great crashes in baseball history. Let’s hope not!
May I boast just a bit? PADRES, PADRES, PADRES. No one believes us, everyone ignores us, but the Friars just keep on rollin’. I’ve had a lot of sympathy for you, Mike these last couple of nights!
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Confession: I like the “man law” commercials. Call me shallow. I still like them.
Huh?
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We were a Wednesday night church family growing up. Questions were never asked. When it was 7:00, we were in class. At 7:45, we were in the auditorium for a couple songs and an invitation. And those are good memories.
I don’t remember how long Wed. night services were, I just remember they were a crashing bore for me and usually I slept through them. Sorry guys. However, as is God’s bent, in my case He used my attitude about Wed. and Sunday nights as a spiritual growth barometer. How clearly I remember the first time I thought. ‘YEAH! I get to go to church!”
Wed. nights at Highland are a high point for me when I’m able to go and a sad evening when I can’t. Oasis is truly that, a mid-week oasis from lone prayers, a time of community, fellowship and sweet prayers and worship.
Every two weeks our small group meets [with a couple of little children that are a joy to all of us!] Being fairly new to the group, it was a source of encouragement to have this lovely group come around me during the past coupe of weeks, especially since two others experienced far graver surgeries than did I. But PTL, all are recoverying beautifully!
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I know so many people who live every day with burdens and pain . . . and faithfulness. They are heroic.
Agreed, Mike. Some are mutual friends, and I’m sure you have as many or more than I that are not within our coinciding arena.
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What was this woman thinking? What was this pastor thinking?
How many of us have sought our pastor/teachers as counselors expecting their prayers, guidance and confidential respect for our confessions and questions? And the pastor??? I wouldn’t trust someone like that to confide in about what’s for dinner. He broke BOTH vocations’ rules of confidentiality imo.
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btw-didn’t comment on the environmental issue since as a Californian this is no biggie. CA is probably one if not THE more environmental aware and proactive state of the 50.
I think the Wednesday night meetings were developed when times were much simpler and families were less busy.
We dropped the devo/invitation part of our Wednesday nights severalyears ago and now just have classes. It just seemed odd to spend 15 minutes getting everyone together for a 10-minute devo.
A few days ago, a friend of mine proposed the Wednesday supper thing, which would be followed by service projects in the community. I like the idea of the service projects, but I told him Wednesday nights are busy enough as it is. Maybe Sunday afternoons? Have service projects through the afternoon instead of the evening worship? Has anyone tried that? Does it seem to work well?
Brian - amen brother! How many times wo we discuss/flannel board Paul’s second missionary journey without setting sail on our witness for Jesus outside the comfortable church walls?
Joe -
You are the only positive thing I associate with the Ya….them. You should take that as a great compliment. Really.
Enjoy Aggieland this weekend. I hope they destroy Tech.
Mike,
Talking about Wednesday night - I am part of the clandestine “bible study” that is in the room across from the elevator (do not know room numbers). This class has met faithfully for several years; we like to think of ourselves as flying under the radar.
Going back to you comment, “What I often feel about people on Wednesday night is that they desperately need time to just be together, to visit, to have fun, to pray.”
The class is designed to start a few minutes late, since many of the members have children to get to different places. We spend the first 15 minutes talking, if an outsider was to listen in, they might think we were ’speaking in tongues’. There seems to be a need for most of the thirty something (or higher) members to blow off a little steam, I guess it is therapeutic to get to just talk to other like individuals. We generally are involved in a study either a study of scripture or an applicable book. At one time, I believe we studied Romans for over a year. Trust me we studied the book and several can tell you they got more out of the Book of Romans that they have any other book in the Bible. However, we are always open to the spiritual needs of each other and will gladly spend our time praying.
Our Wednesday nights do not always look the same, sometimes the people come and go. What we do well is love each other, talk, and laugh and pray, with the purpose of learning more about Jesus Christ and learning how to live out life in the way of His Gospel.
Mike, if you are not teaching on a Wednesday night you and Diane come and visit us. Sometimes I do sneak into the auditorium and listen to your lesson I do miss is the good teaching that happens in the big room.
Chris Field:
Such Blasphemy! How could anyone wish such a thing about Crazy Mike Leach and those beloved Red Raiders. Wreck em Tech!
Re: the Texas Supreme Court case. I scanned (extremely quickly) one of the appellate briefs - for the minister, I believe - a few months ago. He is a licensed counselor, but I believe his attorneys are arguing there was no counseling relationship in this instance. If they can get the Court to buy that, I think they’ll have a stronger position that this would be a situation of the state (the courts) invading church business.
But apart from any legal arguments, yikes, bad practices all the way around in my opinion. Violating trust and just making the church not look “safe” to its members or to outsiders. Would you want to go for marital counseling at that church after what happened?
Charlie S.-
The irony is that I am in law school here at Tech and they are paying for it!
But I always be an Aggie. Gig ‘em!
Joe - I’m very supportive of that class and other small groups that meet on Wednesday night. In fact, they may be pointing the way to the future. One challenge in children’s ministry will be adequate staffing as more and more people move into that time slot for small group. But it’s all part of reinventing. Thanks for sharing that.
You think the Cards’ are in a freefall…have you seen my Braves’ record? From first to worst! Oh well, spring training begins in 5 months and maybe we’ll start another 14 year run, this time with a few more World Series’.
I’m sure you know this. The Penley case is very similar to a situation in Oklahoma about 20 years ago that affected the Collinsville Church of Christ, which disfellowshipped a woman for adultery. The elders sent letters to the other congregations in town letting them know that. All that happened after she “quit” the church.
The Oklahoma Supreme Court ruled that was public disclosure of private fact, a civil tort, and punished the church. Though the Oklahoma precedent is not binding, I suspect the Texas Supreme Court will rule the same way, especially in the light of the violation of trust by the pastor.
Your humble Communication Law servant
You admitting you like the “Man Law” commercials just gives you more “street cred”, so don’t sweat it.
We are working on a little Video bit here at our chruch on some “COC” man laws…
i.e. How many pats are allowed in a manly church hug with another guy…2….3….4..?
Re: The Penley Case
Seems to me this guy skipped several critical steps. What happened to Matthew 18?
Reactions to sin need to be both serious and gentle. No wonder there are many out there afraid to darken the door of a church building for fear of the condemnation they’ll encounter. This (misguided) woman was a member of the church and her leader didn’t hesitate to pull the trigger on her.
I think the real issue here is how to deal with sin. It must be taken seriously and aggressively opposed. But people, even (and perhaps especially) people stuck in sin, need to be treated with a gentle love that leads to healing. I don’t think that means you don’t call people out. I don’t think that means you don’t make people uncomfortable. I do, however, think that means that you don’t use any tatic that de-humanizes and you do make it a point to communicate, in word and in action, support and concern for the person even as you speak out against the sinful behavior.
I was just thinking the other day that Mike needed some more “street cred”…
I wish I was as confident as some that God honors our schedules,culture,reality(whatever word we want to use) and is pleased that we have exchanged worship and fellowship on Sunday’s and Wednesday’s for _____________.
I sense that the difference between us and our parents/grandparents is not that we work harder or have further to travel,etc,etc…but that we have more self-centered options and choices.
When I was growing up we had 3 TV channels,no internet,no DVD or VCR,no movie complexes,no plethora of children’s sports leagues,etc,etc.And I’m not super-spirititualizing our forefathers-if they had all these entertainment or educational options,perhaps they would have made the same choices.
And I’m not suggesting we return to Sunday night services,especially a repeat of what we did hours earlier.I “feel” more refreshed having stayed home on Sunday night and enjoyed some time with my wife and the NFL,but I cannot quite say that God is more pleased with that choice than He was when I was spending that time in worship and fellowship with brothers and sisters in Christ.
It doesn’t quite sit well either that we are accomodating culture in so many ways.Isn’t the very nature of Christianity that it is different from the world? That it sacrifices self for the glory of God and the good of others?
I don’t have the answers,just the questions.I don’t have an adequate confidence that the early Christians who sacrificed self to meet daily and face tremendous persecution would make the choices we increasingly make…and I don’t have the confidence God is more pleased with our reduction of corporate worship opportunities,either.
I wish I did.
And please do not take this as accusatory,just sincere.
I think Randy makes a great point. What we end up missing out on is focus and fellowship. It’s a shame.
Interesting comments today. It seems like most commenters do not still have the “bible class, a few songs and an invitation”, which is enlightening to me. They still do it that way here, except it’s a few songs and the inviation then bible class. I’m curious if changing to home groups or some different format (like the meal then service mentioned earlier) on Wednesday night has increased participation or not. We still have plenty of opportunities for corporate worship here (Sunday AM & PM, plus Wed PM), but people are choosing not to participate more than Sunday morning. Of a congregation of 250 there will be 50 at most on a Wednesday evening. I’m assuming that has become the norm elsewhere and thus the changes — but wonder if it’s helped to get people more involved. I’m guessing yes but would be curious if that is the case or not.
You want to know what works better than torture? Gaining someone’s trust!
I appreciate your thoughts, Randy. Earlier generations enjoyed a much simpler lifestyle, but we must ask what makes ours so complicated. Much of the modern American lifestyle is simply clutter – activities we think are necessary but, in reality, do nothing more than fill valuable time. How does this impact the church? How much more effective for Christ could we be if we freed ourselves from this misperceived busy-ness?
Mike, We have small groups (intergenerational/geographic) on Wednesday nights. On Sunday nights we have what we call equipping classes, i.e Financial Peace University, How to Read and Study the Bible, Marriage Enrichment). We have our assembly on Sunday mornings with our worship and Bible classes (which are textual, and are rotated for one year). I still remember my Wednesday nights. I felt guilty if something came up and I wasn’t able to attend. That’s the rule keeping coming out in me.
Jose Oquendo can pitch! Seems like he played all nine positions at least once during a season back in the 80s. Also seems like now might be a good time for him to come out of retirement.
Randy - Great thoughts. That’s the perspective we need to keep in tension here. To what extent do we recognize the new world, fully of conflicts and hectic schedules, and to what extent do we challenge that world? Or how can we do both? When I was young, there was rarely ever homework given on Wed PM. Now, it’s just another night. Does that impact what we do? Thousands of questions like that.
Randy, you said “It doesn’t quite sit well either that we are accomodating culture in so many ways.”
Well, isn’t that exactly where we got Sunday nights in the first place? From an agrarian lifesyle? When you get down to it, we have been accomodating lifestyles for maybe a hundred years or more. It’s just different accomodations.
I for one would like to see longer Sunday mornings and no Sunday nights esp when you have people driving an hour or more to church in some areas. We have home churches so we really don’t have that issue.
Good points though Randy. I do agree we must be different. It’s difficult sometimes though, I know.
I’m certainly not arguing for Sunday night services…and I’ve never been able to get a handle on where we got them from-I’ve heard they came from the invention of the light bulb and the automobile-that people were going to church for hours on Sunday morning and with the advent of electricity and cars,people decided to break up the day and come back for an evening service. I don’t know whether that is true or not,but if it is then it is a pretty poor reason to continue the practice.
Having said that,I agree with Mike’s response that we need to dialogue in our churches on what it means to accomodate culture…and we need to ask “At what point does the family,or body,become irrelevant if we keep reducing it to where it becomes an hour a week on most Sunday mornings? ”
The best article I have read on this general topic in years is in the current Leadership(and also on their website): iChurch:All We Like
Sheep by Skye Jerhani.Everybody should read it,ponder it ,and discuss it in their church leadership,as we just did.
Randy, from some things I have studied, the Sunday nights came from US being a more farming society then it is today. That could just be an urban myth though too.
With previous commitments, I had to turn away 2 tickets (3rd row off 3rd base line) for Fridays game vs Milwaukee. I assumed the Cards would have things wrapped up by now. Boy was I wrong.
Can’t feel real sorry for your Cards, Mike, look who is in the basement of that division!
——-
I still find that burden and pain are easier partners of faithfulness, than a life of vanilla health/wealth foolishness.
We have more folks who participate in Wednesday nights than I can remember in the 25 plus years that I have been in this church family.
However, our Sunday nights are getting smaller than in recent years–not as many participate on Sunday night as we have on Wendesday with our small groups.
I’m not arguing for or against Sunday nights but I am seeing more and more kids miss Sunday mornings for club sports and this is in my opinion inappropriate!! C’Mon, sports takes up so much of our weekend as well as weekdays~~Sunday mornings should be spent in church (again, my opinion.)
In Him,
lee
Being a PK, we only went to church when the doors were open regardless of homework, etc. I liked Wednesday nights because we had class and a devo. As a teenager, we had separate classes for the girls and boys. It was a good way for the “older” women/men of the church to teach the younger ones.
The Anson CoC has WOW (Worship on Wednesday) for the middle school/high school kids. They meet in a different home each month for a time of fellowship and singing/devo time. When I was still going to Anson, we usually had twice as many kids at WOW as we did in Sunday a.m. class. Many of the kids that came were not members of the CoC so it was a great way to outreach to the community.
So so many thoughts…
Wednesday nights - on the weeks we miss (about 10% overall, with the rate higher during cold season and grant season for my job), both the hubs and I feel a little bit emptier than normal. Our College ministry calls their Weds. night class “Recharge,” and I think it’s absolutely appropriate! This summer we did the congregational dinners thing and it was awesome! We also did “family” activities instead of a class/mini sermon. Some of the nights, we watched Andy Griffith and discussed spiritual implications of the message of the episode (thanks to the magic of DVD’s) and other nights we shared memories of growing up, with intergenerational seating arrangements. I miss them, but with school in session, it’d be a bit crazy logistically.
As for the Penley case - if the guy wishes to practice therapy professionally, than he is bound to the laws of the land, imho, regardless of his heavenly citizenship. I agree with the person who made the point that he should’ve talked to her from the perspective of making a personal confession to the congregation. Another thing, if he’s in the practice of sharing counseling clients “sins” (which makes me think about stones…and who can/should throw them) wtih the church, if they are members, then perhaps he should explain his ideology to everyone at the 1st session, and ask clients to sign a release of information which allows him to discuss with the church. If they don’t sign, then he keeps his mouth shut….I dunno, that seems the more ethical thing to do.
oh, and man laws - they are funny.
I’d much rather see that kind of beer commercial than the Coors “twins” ones - ICK!
I am so glad that Pepperdine let him sign the “greenhouse bill” there. We have been give an important job by God to take care of the earth. We as God’s people need to take care of what has created. We need to let the world that we care about what God has created especially the enviornement.
There are many things we can do: Recycle, plant trees, pick up trash, use less gas, use other friendly sources of fuel, don’t use arysole deoterants, hairsparys and other products. We preach holiday sermons, this year preach a earth day sermon!
Thanks Mike for letting us know that wonderful news about Pepperdine and the legislation that as signed today. Wonderful. Praise God!
And no better place than Pepperdine.
Consuming less meat is another of those things that can be done, preacherman.
I consume more meat to rid the earth of beef. I can’t do it all so I do what I can. Hasn’t been a steer in my yard in more than 3 years. I am making progress.
They really should stop making animals out of meat so I wouldn’t be tempted to eat them.
The Cardinals falling… boo, hoo!
I am a Cubs fan so you Cardinal fans will not get any sympathy from me.
Mike,
A message for you from my dear Michael who brought me to baseball.
“I’ve been waiting since 1964 for the Cardinals to go into free fall after what they did to my Phillies that year. So I’m pulling for the Astros these last days of this season.” In light of what’s happening with the Padres vs Cards, he also offered to send you a broom.
Mike,
A slight edit on Michael’s message to you. The broom might not be necessary after all. Your boy Albert just hit a 3-run home run in the bottom of the 8th. 4-2 Cards. Yipes!
I can’t help but wonder if Governor Terminator is using Pepperdine as a political photo op to keep his foot in the door with the right while making his bed with the left. (He is married to a Kennedy–ha, ha, ha) I dont’ think Christians can deny, that being a good steward of the earth is a logical step in the Christian walk. Al Gore’s propaganda film “An Invonenient Truth” is a scare tactic, though. The scientific communinty is not in agreement that global warming is anything other than a normal occurence. The effect of greenhouse gases on global warming may be minimal. Did SUVs and industrialization bring an end to the ice age?
I agree that biodiesel, hybrids, hydrogen, ethanol, and similar things are the direction we need to gp fast to reduce our dependence on foreign oil and to reduce smog in our cities, but America should NEVER sign onto the Kyoto Treaty. While its appearance is warm and fuzzy, the reality is that it was highly sponsored by Enron. (Anybody smell a rat?) and creates a whole new industry for regulation of estimated green house gases, global taxation, world wealth redistribution, and ultimately feeds into the hands of world government. I know George has received criticism for not following Bill’s footsteps on the Kyoto, but he is right on this one.
I hope while at Pepperdine, somebody asked Arnold about what is the future for Christians in California. Some alarming laws being considered in California legislature. I tried to find links regarding them, but could not. If passed, some of these laws will mean the end of free speech in California and fines/imprisonment for preachers who declare homosexuality is a sin. How could such a law be considered? Just like the proposed amendment that would have banned flag burning. I hate flag burning, but many people died to preserve that freedom. The restriction of free speech is the beginning of tyranny.
Go A’s!!!!
Cards Win! Cards Win!
Mike, could you begin all of your posts with this same question… just until the end of October?
“Preach an earth day sermon”?!?!?
“Consume less meat”?!?!?
This has got to be a parody. Earth day is LITERALLY a day of pagan worship. Worship of “mother earth”. This isn’t one of those “Christmas began as a pagan holiday” kind of arguments. Earth day is literally a day of earth worship. And there is actually someone here who thinks the church should spend precious time preaching about it! Is the liberal side of the church REALLY this far off track, or is this just some big joke?
As far as consuming less meat, what in the world does that have to do with protecting the earth? I agree that it might help your cholesterol count a little bit, but saving the earth? Have you ever read Genesis chapter 9? God gave us “every moving thing that lives” for food, added some rules later in the law, and hasn’t clarified or modified the standard yet. If you don’t want to eat meat, be my guest, but drop the holier-than-thou attitude about it. You eat your organically grown eggplant, and drink your wheat grass soda, and let everybody else eat their New York Strips, and leave each other alone about it. Neither one of you is going to save or damn the earth either way.
The whole “greenhouse gas” garbage is really quite silly. Two points here: I’m not talking out of ignorance. I minored in environmental studies in college, and was even an exchange student in the Soviet Union at the University of Moscow, in the Environmental Studies program in 1990, before the fall. I guess you could say that I’ve heard a little bit about it… There is nothing we can do, short of detonating every nuclear weapon on earth simultaneously, that would significantly change our weather. Absolutely nothing. Second point: has nobody read the book of Revelation? The earth warming up a few degrees in the last 100 years isn’t our concern. There is a REAL GLOBAL WARMING that is definitely coming. There is no question, no debate to be had, no theories to expound. It will happen, and it will be swift. This kookie mix of Christianity and environmentalism serves no purpose other than to, as I heard a famous preacher put it, make the earth a nicer place to go to hell from.
Between this discussion, and the absolutely puzzling patriotism-turned-”Harding bashing” discussion yesterday, I think I would be safe in saying that many peoples’ chief concern is quite misplaced. The earth has no soul, and neither does Harding or even ACU. Why not spend your precious time telling people the good news, and not trashing everyone who doesn’t agree with your philosophy or choices in Christian education?
Any chance we might could get an online post (youtube) of “Mike Cope Sings the Classics”?
The one year anniversary is coming up, feed us some humor in our troubled world.
Amen to that , Kerry. After the fall of communism the extreme left had to have someplace to go so they jumped on the environment bandwagon. I would like to think Christians were smarter than that.
Seeing this falling of the Cards is a great thing when you are a die hard Astros Fan….. Go Stros!!!! only 1.5 back and if we get ahead of the Cards no playoffs for them most likely.
Amen Kerry. Great, great post!!
[quote]If you don’t want to eat meat, be my guest, but drop the holier-than-thou attitude about it.[/quote]
If my saying “consuming less meat” is another way that we can help the environment was “holier than thou” then I apologize. My intuition says that it in fact was not and that you were just finding something to rant about it.
If you would really like to discuss environmental concerns that come with the way we produce/consume meat in the US, then e-mail me at christophercfield@yahoo.com and we can discuss it.
I do, by the way, find it quite ironic that you would find my comment to be “holier than thou” and say so in a post that clearly implies that you are right and others are obviously wrong. And sad that others would say “good job” to that.
Amen Kerry - let’s go find some tree-hugging liberals and beat them over the head with our Bibles and maybe a Big Mac - and tell them to straighten up or rot in Hell. That’ll teach ‘em.
it’s funny to skip down to the bottom of the comments string after not checking all day and try to figure out how the discussion turned to vegetarianism.
The funny thing about it Steve is that the conversation never really “turned there” at all. Just another rant on Mike’s blog about all the crazy “liberals.” Shocking.
Kerry -
Typical right wing stuff there.
Tossing the charge of “holier than thou” to a young man who’s been quite gentle, though persuasive, about his decision to be a vegetarian. He’s never said “I am and everyone who loves God will.” Quite the opposite. But that’s a classic right wing move. Bash the liberals and call them nutjobs and “holier than thou.”
And please? Earth day is pagan worship? Are you really that shallow? With some it is, sure. But not with everyone — not by any means. For some followers of Jesus Christ it is a day to remember that the earth was made by God through him and that we are to care about it and for it.
Your view of salvation is tiny, tiny, tiny.
And sorry, your minor in environmental science leave me a wee bit unimpressed. It’s undeniable: our abuse of the earth is affecting the weather. Not a pleasant thought for those who don’t want to conserve and show discipline. Just keep driving those Suburbans and Humvees.
Save your “Left Behind” interpretations of Revelation too, please. God is moving this world toward renewal, not toward annihilation.
Steve - I think us “bottom commenters” need a nickname.
Sub-T-100’s; Mike’s basement gang; Get-a-lifer’s??
Emily72, please look at ALL the evidence and listen to ALL the experts in the field. Not just the ones who are paid by certain politicans. Can you please refer me to the “undeniable evidence” that our “abuse” of the earth is affecting the weather? Oh…make sure you check who is funding that “evidence”.
Kent, when you get done beating up on Kerry maybe you would like to take a walk with me and talk to all those Liberals beating us over the head for being “Big business loving and non-compassionate Conservatives”. Larry can probably help you there.
I didn’t like the “holier than thou” charge either but the gist of this post was very solid and good.
It is getting less and less enjoyable to read the comments on your blog. I don’t mind the disagreeing, but the spirit in which some of it is done is disappointing and diminishes the blessing of your blog, especially when good conversation degenerates into a hockey brawl.
Brad, I don’t think it has gotten THAT bad…I mean hockey fights can get pretty bloody. I think we just have some pushing and shoving (so far).
I was thinking the same thing, Brad, but couldn’t figure out how to word it. So, I’ll just add my agreement with your comment.
I am just saying as Chrisitans we need to be concerned with the earth. How we treat what God created. I don’t understand Christians who don’t care about the enviornment and earth. We must remember how we treat the earth is going to make a difference in the way our children and grandchildren live. Are they going to be able to breathe, live a productive life in a smog filled world? Or are Chrisitans going to step up and make a difference in the world that God created by trying to conserve on things that harm the earth. Christians say they are concervative. It is time we conserve on things that matter like the future of our children, grandchildren. In doing so we give others hope in not going to hell.
On my thoughts on an Earth Day sermon is that we can preach on taking care of the earth that God created. Things that we can do as Christians to make a differnce as far as taking caring of what God has created. Maybe even plant a tree or trees infront of your church that day. Encourage members to plan trees in they yards on that day. Walk or ride your bike to Church day might even be something we can do on earth day. We must understand that as Christians we do have a responsibility and understand that taking care of the earth is not pagan but godly.
Amen, Brad.
I believe I have to leave this blog, at least for a while.
I came from a bi-political home. My parents would happily go off every election day to cancel eachother out for 65 wonderful years. They would talk politics to anyone, except each other and rarely in the other’s presence.
My father lionized Roosevelt, was invited on more than one occasion to the White House during the Carter administration, and was disappointed when Reagan left the party.
My mother watched the KKK burn the family barn while her father protected the family and the neighbors. She was shamed at 82 to find out a long kept family secret that in the 1850’s a grandparent had owned a slave before she married. She thought for over fifty years that Roosevelt had started programs which would lead to personal destruction for many people. She thought Reagan was the most profound leader of his generation.
My mother liked Jimmy Carter, personally. She and my dad would stop and worship in Plains whenever the opportunity arose.
My father would admit to believing the Civil Rights Act would not have passed if left to his party’s leadership.
I found all those things out in private conversations in the car or sitting in a hospital waiting room or over coffee and pie with just one of them.
Never did I hear them argue about politics. Why? Because it was temporary. Not worth the effort or breath. Certainly not worth possibly hurting the other’s feelings with an ill-considered comment.
Oddly enough, my father was the real conservative in his spiritual beliefs, while Mother was in her words “a small ‘c’ catholic.” They both adopted my father’s view about religion. “The only question I have a right to ask another person is, ‘Do you believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, crucified for the forgiveness of your sins?’ If the answer is yes, that person is my brother and we can argue about camping.” Rare for a couple of c of Cers in the South.
So, while I am a political junkie, I’ll have to get my political fix solely from Paula Zahn and Bill O’Reilly from now on. My spiritual blog fix, as a missionary in the Bible Belt, is looking for a new home.
I sincerely apologize if any of my comments have been the reason that people would not come back to this blog. As I read back through them over the last few days, I feel like they were kind and appropriate but maybe they were not. If I have offended anyone or acted in an unkind way, I am sorry. That was never my intent.
If you’re still around Freda