God Bless America. And Tanzania. And Venezuela. . . .
What a blessing it is to live in the United States.
But.
But America is not the kingdom of God. America is not God’s plan for reaching the world. America is not our highest allegiance. This is a nation that has had great sin (slavery, greed, immorality, racism, etc.) and that has done great good (in the progress of human rights, e. g.).
If there is no America in a century, that’s tragic (in my humble opinion). But not ultimately tragic. Nations come and go.
But the reign of God will never be defeated. Even now, while the Christian faith is losing ground quickly to other religions in North America (partly because of the trivializing of it and the attempts to tie it to one or another political party), it is far outpacing other religions in places like Asia and Africa.
God bless America. And Tanzania. And Venezuela. And China. And Iran. And India. And Croatia. . . .
It means what it says. Simple as that. If you don’t understand it, I’m afraid no lengthy explanation would ever suffice.
Ah. So Tim has played his “trump card” as well. Informative.
*sigh*
When will we ever see that the encroachment of domestic politics into the church does nothing but bring out the very worst in us?
*sigh*
qb
Mere discipleship by Camp
What if…? by Yoder
b blessed
russkirby.blogspot.com
I think that Richie had the best thought today:
“When I pray “God bless James [my friend],” I’m not asking him to bless James more than anyone else or to the exclusion of others. Just because I know James, I know his needs, and I’m a part of his life, I’m more likely to pray for him. Does that excuse me from my obligations to take part in other people’s lives? NO. But it also doesn’t make it wrong for me to ask God to reign in his life.”
I said, “America isn’t God’s chosen nation. Israel is.”
Actually, CHRISTIANS are God’s chosen nation. Israel isn’t anymore.
Good stuff Mike
A few more points to ponder . . . . .
1. God is neither Republican nor Democrat. He is certainly The Ultimate Independant. His agenda is bigger than our politics. As the song says, “Kings and kingdoms will all pass away, but there’s something about that Name!”
2. Truth is never determined by majority vote.
3. Governing authorities are called on by God to be public servants and administer justice on behalf of God in this world (Romans 13:1-7).
4. Christians have dual citizenship. We are to give Ceasar what is belongs to him and give to God what belongs to HIM. While dwelling here as resident alients, We are to “Seek the welfare of the city where we dwell” and “pray to the LORD on its behalf, for in its peace you shall have peace.” (Jeremiah 29:7) There is no time to be passive while others need a touch of God’s grace.
5. We are to pray for “Kings and all those in authority” (1 Tim. 2:2)
6. While it is good to sing “God Bless America”, America (and every other nation) will do even better to bless God.
Justin, Godwin’s law indeed… the last gasp of the rhetorically incompetent (and yes, I’m also talking to you Donald R).
Check it out at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Seriously, Tim? Is it that obvious? Or am I just stupid? Please have the decency to explain some random tidbit that you write in a comment. Surely you don’t see yourself as that far above me that I just have no chance to “get it.”
Being “mildly patriotic” is like being “mildly alcoholic.” If something is a bad thing, it doesn’t matter whether you’re in for a penny or in for a pound.
Tim -
I like the quote in your 1:09 post.
Lets pray for God to reign in the foreign and domestic policy of the US.
Lets pray that we can hold our nations policies and government leaders’ actions up to the sermon on the mount.
I’m not really serious about the above statements. I think the key thing here is to pray sincerely and unselfishly with god’s will at the forefront of the prayer.
Again, (as stated/alluded to in one of my earlier posts), I don’t think the words “God Bless America” are the issue. I think it is an issue of examing ones self, motivations, and what one is really asking for.
Praying for individuals and specific needs reflects much deeper thinking/prayer requests and a simple “God Bless America.” Again, what does that mean? Are we praying that we kill all our enemies on the battlefiel? Are we praying that we get all the oil we need? Cheap gas prices? Let’s pray for “blessings” specifically, sincerely, as well as with all our minds.
Are our prayers focused on God’s will and scripture or are they focussed on material wants?
Nothing wrong with praying for individuals or nations. Let’s just keep are prayers focused on God’s will.
(My original post wasn’t a criticism of the words “GBA” it was focused on the way in which I here these petitions presented. “As if” America was God’s chosen nation and in selfrighteous tones – i.e. “Christian nation”, etc. We are not Israel and we don’t need to delude ourselves with that idea. The idea of ANY “Christian” nation or that America is it, as a theological concept – seems to not be in line with the NT.)
We are all brothers and sisters in Christ – regardless of differences of opinion. Let’s remember that these posts are all geared toward furthering God’s Kingdom. I can only speak for myself, but please realize my posts are sincere and simply based on my increased study/understanding of scripture. I’m still struggling to submit myself truly to God’s will and have a long way to go in my spiritual walk.
Take care brothers and sisters.
Chris, the basic idea is that I feel that too many people would simply sit on their hands in woe if something like WWII happend again with Nazi Germany.
“With great power comes great responsibility.” -Peter Parker
About Hannity’s appearance at Harding, check out the Searcy article: http://www.thedailycitizen.com/articles/2006/09/23/news/top_stories/top01.txt. An interesting discussion about it here: http://www.kendallball.com/2006/09/24/alma-mater-hail-redux/.
Thanks
Tim,
Pacifism isn’t sitting on ones hands. Pacifism isn’t doing nothing. Its finding creative non violent solutions to problems.
If the German people hadn’t been Germans before Christians, maybe they would have stood up to the evils that Hitler was involved in, rather than going along with him. When your country moves in a direction that goes against what Christ preaches, you protest and stand up to evil, but you shouldn’t “be over come by evil, but overcome evil with good” If we voice our opposition to whatever evils are being done, even if it cost our lives, it shows the injustice of the system, and eventually, even evil peoples minds will be changed. Hitler can’t destroy a group of people if no one will do his bidding.
Here’s the description of the event from a new Facebook Group called “Sean Hannity Has Brought Shame and Humiliation Upon Harding University”:
“We just paid someone $50,000 to make fun of people (possibly more, possibly less, but a reasonable estimate based on past speakers). Not only did he rather childishly make fun of liberals but he went as far as to humiliate a student with a legitimate spiritual conundrum regarding what the bible teaches about turning the other cheek. Great! Isnt it just wonderful the way that people who claim to be Christians turn off their brains and blindly applaud someone acting it complete opposition to the teaching of Jesus Christ. For the record there are hundreds of people in need right here in Searcy who would have benefited greatly from a share of that money.”
The members of the facebook group are Harding faculty, students, and friends.
An interesting discussion of it here, too: http://www.markaelrod.net/2006/09/21/defending-america-the-sean-hannity-way#comments
Emily72, could not agree more. He was a horrible choice to bring to HU.
Mere Discipleship by Lee Camp is INDEED an awesome read. I know Lee well (he’s a member here and teaches class on Sundays). I respect him deeply. McLaren even quoted him in his last book.
Clint…awesome quote from PB. You know Mike will love that. Hilario!
Beaner…I’m with you.
At the risk of being called a Pharisee or something worse for the second time in one day – the most outrageous comment Mr. Hannity reportedly made was…
“If you’re conservative you believe that God’s greatest gift to mankind in the gift of history is the USA.”
Two replies:
1) Some might argue that Jesus was God’s greatest gift.
2) This can’t be corroborated with audio tape because Mr. Hannity does not allowing taping of his speeches, which is reasonable to me. However, I’ve read no fewer than 5 people’s comments who were in attendance state he did say this.
It is quite the buzz these days on Harding’s campus, however.
Chinese Christian writer Watchman Nee was asked to pray at a pre-WW2 conference, sitting between the representatives of Japan and China (as I “think” I remember the article, Japan was soon to invade China). He was in a “tight spot” but he said in his prayer that he would not ask GOD to bless Japan or China, but for GOD’s blessings for the interests of Christ in Japan and the interests of Christ in China.
Amen and amen.
And what a blessing it would be to grow up in Venezuela, Croatia, or maybe even China…could the imprisoned Chinese Christians teach us all more than a little something about “blessing?” I’m sure so.
After living overseas, I realized what a blessing an American passport is…and what a curse American pornography, cigarettes, and materialism are. We are blessed…not better, not worse, but definitely we are different…just as “they” are different.
My own personally recent deep evaluation of this was the debate over whether little Elian Gonzales should be sent back to Cuba. Father’s rights over freedom? Communism over capitalism? The “good” life over the “not so good” life (depending on your definition)? Only when I turned the tables did I see how incensed we would become over the termination of a US child’s parent(s)’ parental rights due to another country’s political agenda or the wishes of extended family…and I realized that little boy could grow up happy, healthy, and live a life for Christ if he chose, in Cuba just as well as in the United States, Fidel or no Fidel. Of course, his was a family situation, so as always, was much more complicated that this short paragraph could detail; however, what was unnecessary was the public judgment of what was “best” for the boy based solely on what country he grew up in.
The world is broad and wide, and we are a part of it, but certainly not all of it.
Ann Coulter? (Who was invited and then uninvited as a result, largely, of pressure from this blog–as well as other blogs.) Sean Hannity?
Who is making decisions at Harding University? What has happened to its Christian heritage? When will a new president be appointed? Is the board leading or the president?
Food for thought:
Perhaps God has different expectations and uses from nations than from individuals? I.e., in the Torah He required the individual to repay every injury or death with same — but He didn’t require them to repay the enemies that He told them to attack and fight in war. He told them to plunder Egypt when they left. He works differently with nations than He does with individuals. “The LORD is a Warrior; the LORD is His name.” Likewise, in the NT we have the example of Jesus and the teaching of the apostles on the moral purity and piety of the individual believer; it is not a divine treatise on international political ethics.
Why didn’t Jesus tell the centurion to quit the army? Instead he held him up as an example of faith before all Israel.
When Assyria, Babylon and Persia were warring, pillaging, raping and plundering Palestine in the name of empire, God called Cyrus “my anointed” on who’s behalf He would “break through bars of bronze and iron”. Even though God admitted that Cyrus didn’t realize He was doing God’s will. Was God exercising a double-standard here?
Mike, thanks for speaking the truth, as always.
This message is needed today as possibly never before. What are we thinking?
Emily72, a word about good old Harding U. I was there from 1968-1972. The flag waving was going strong then and had been since post-WWII and the work of George Benson and the work of his organization. So right-wing, pro-American and beginning the work of knitting that political agenda together with Christianity as understood by Dr. Benson and others like him that by the time I was in graduate school at Tulane University, I had a prof in my first graduate reading seminar tell me that he hoped that Harding had not unduly rubbed off on me!
I loved being at Harding U. because of the fact that my wife was there, the trout fishing was great and the humanities and much of the Bible departments were untouched by the politics. I underline “much” because some was gone, gone, gone on the red scare. Harding was a place to get a liberal education largely by reaction formation! It is sad to see it even more to the right today.
It would be interesting to know the ages of the writers today. Seems like maybe the thoughts being expressed has more to do with where we’ve been instead of where we are going. I have heard the phrase Govenment schools speaking of our public education system. Since I was a part of that for years, I never put much stock in it. But it is interesting.
Emily72,
I heard through the grapevine that President David B. Burks has just been given seven more years at the helm.
Well, hip…hip…hooray…
I heard Don McLaughlin at the ACU lectureships use the word kingship, rather than kingdom when referring to our true citizenship. We are under the kingship of Jesus, regardless of what “kingdom” if you will, that we happen to be part of. Sometimes, our language trips us up.
I hear a few folks here defending their right/privilege/obligation to “bless America.” Many of you have agreed with Mike’s basic premise that America is to be blessed no more and no less than any other nation in the world. Do you ask God to bless Chile as much as you ask God to bless America? What about Burundi? Slovakia? Maybe Singapore? To me, one ought to utter the phrase “God Bless America” ONLY if one is in the practice of asking God’s blessing on the rest of the world. Sadly, I haven’t heard much of the latter.
Which brings me to another side item: What does “God Bless America” even mean? Is it:
“God, Bless America” — a humble prayer
or
“God, Bless America” — a mandate for God to bless our nation
or
“God Bless America” – a grammatically incorrect way of saying that God has blessed or will continue to bless our nation
I don’t think most people even know what they are singing when the seventh inning stretch comes at Yankee Stadium … they just feel good saying the words “God” and “America” in the same sentence.
And whoever thinks that that phrase hasn’t been used to justify some pretty rediculous — nay, evil — actions at the hands of our country, then you’re blind.
America, Bless God! is my prayer.
Hello folks. Yes, I agree. I do think it was a bad choice to bring Hannity to Harding University, however I didn’t think this would turn into a huge Harding bashing blog either.
Larry, it may be sad to see Harding turn so far to the right as you said but it’s a whole lot better then to see it turn to the left planned parenthood set up shop there.
Larry:
“Much” of Harding today is still untouched by the politics of the very few representing ASI. Unfortunately the few can and do influence Harding’s public face. Be assured, deep inside, Harding is NOT its public face.
I know, Shannon. One of the saddest parts about the antics of “Harding” the last few years is that it rarely represents the majority of its students or faculty. Friends that I have made from Harding are the most thoughtful, spiritual, and personable that I have ever known. Many of our greatest friends in the world are Harding graduates. The faculty is generally devoted, intelligent, independent thinking and loving. It is a shame that a few at the top have decided to put forth quite a different image in many of its policies and decisions over the years.
Thank you, Shannon.
I would venture to agree with ftwskies. Sometimes I think the “Turn the other cheek” verse is used in the wrong context. Jesus was speaking on an individual basis at that point. I took an Honors colloquium where we spent six weeks diving into this exact issue. And of course, we never all came to an agreement, even though everyone in that room is a Christian. The saddest thing to me is the times that we don’t use our resources to help those around the world being oppressed. Why didn’t we come to the rescue of 800,000 Rwandans being murdered? Why are we still letting thousands of Ugandan children sleep in hospitals to avoid being captured by rebel armies? Please don’t get me wrong. There are no easy answers for the questions I posed. I certainly don’t have them. But I do know that as long as we live in a fallen world, “there will always be wars and rumors of wars.” So, yes, God bless America, and help us to be a blessing to the world. And God bless Rwanda. And Uganda. And Brazil. And Korea. And Iraq. And……
It is interesting to me that when the the children of Israel were carried off to Babylon, Jeremiah gave them a revelation from God on what they were to do:
Jeremiah 29: 4-7 : “Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, to all the exiles whom I have sent into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon: 5 Build houses and live in them; plant gardens and eat their produce. 6 Take wives and have sons and daughters; take wives for your sons, and give your daughters in marriage, that they may bear sons and daughters; multiply there, and do not decrease. 7 But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the LORD on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare.
That City was, of course, Babylon. Jeremiah went on to say that after 70 years that the Lord would return to them and lead them back to Jerusalem, which he did. If Nebuchanezzer can be God’s instrument and the children of Israel are told to pray to the Lord on Babylon’s behalf because its welfare depended upon their welfare…I think we have permission to pray for all governments in which Christians find themselves in this world today.
God still reigns and he is not done with Israel yet if we believe what Paul said in Romans 11:25-27:
“25 Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, 26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; 27 “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
Mike, Can we talk about ‘Veggie Tales’ being on NBC? Sure, they had to cut out some references to God, but maybe some kids who don’t know about God will be exposed to the positive messages or just like the characters & buy the DVDs.
But, i’m sure there’s plenty in this story for a good debate too!
I am surprised at some of the feelings here toward Harding, but then, I sent two kids there. One is finishing this year and loves it, and the other left early because she couldn’t stand it! So that just reflects the same diversity on this blog. Human response is always so varied, isn’t it? And aren’t we glad that we don’t all think alike?
Wow, you guys sure like to beat up on those individuals and schools that don’t agree with you.
I’d say it’s been fun, but today it has not.
This has just made me sick and disappointed.
Debate is one thing……..
Have fun blogging amongst yourselves.
Snapshot out….for good.
Larry,
The graduate school professor was out of line. Just teach the course. Avoid explicit personal prejudices or preferences about students’ backgrounds.
Dave
Wow. What a forum. How did it go from Bless Tanzania to “I don’t think Hannity should come to Harding?”
Speaking of Tanzania, after much prayer and fasting and leadership demonstrated by the shephards of the DT church in Searcy, they have selected Tanzania as the next missionfield to embrace. “Go ye into ALL the world…”
Great thoughts, Mike
I fail to see why everyone has to engage in endless debate over everything. Smile and be happy…we are blessed.
Wow. I agree with snapshot. How sad that so much Harding bashing must go on simply because you don’t like how conservative it is. Here is a clue folks…don’t go. You know what it is prior to sending your kids there so don’t complain about it when you see and hear things you don’t like. Sheesh! I would MUCH rather my children go to HU then some liberal school that would teach them that Homosexuality, abortion and other ilk is perfectly fine and acceptable.
Sometimes I wake up and review the course of a blog journey . . . and am surprised. As I’ve said before, the student experience at Harding is quite different than some of the politics that make headlines. People like my friends Monte Cox and Ross Cochran are training and equipping students for missions all over the world. For that, I’m very thankful. And I’ve heard more than one ACU graduate professor talk about how well prepared the Harding students who come here for their grad studies are.
Keith – Glad to hear about the group forming from Downtown. We have a wonderful young couple that has just left Highland for Tanzania. You can read about them here. (You’ll love this recent entry about Sam — with whom I got to climb to the top of Africa in Tanzania!) I got to grab a meal with one of your preachers who was here speaking for the ACU lectureship. It’s exciting to hear him talk about that church.
Snapshot – I have noticed over a few years that people who disagree with comments tend to find them sick and disgusting — whereas if they agree with the comments they think they’re all right (even if they would have worded it differently). I’ve just read through these comments. It’s not where I thought the discussion would go. And I don’t agree with everything, by any means.
Cindy Hanson – excellent thoughts!
Thanks for the follow-up comments Mike. I guess I feel somewhat responsible since I’m the first to type Sean and Harding on this thread. I thought the parallel in that issue was hand in glove with this thread, but my intention was certainly not to hi-jack the thread’s direction, rather to under-score that this is a pretty big issue right now. I think the number and variance in comments reflect that it is a pretty hot button. And, I too have learned over the years you cannot imagine the course a conversation will take on a hot button topic.
FOR SALE: 2006 Liberal Bandwagon. Elitist Edition. V-1/2 Hybrid. Color: Grey. 2 Dr. Minor damage to front-end from driving into ditch. Pulls to left. $2000 or possible trade for scooter. Phone:555-5555. ask for Larry.
Broke my own decision to not look back. Just had to come back and check out what was said in a last ditch effort, so I did and lo and behold I’m misquoted. And I simply won’t stand for being accused of saying things I did not. Like my comments or not, at least get them right when quoting.
I never said this discussion was sick and disgusting. Reread the posts!!!!
I said this made me feel “SICK AND DISAPPOINTED”.
Geez Louise.
Snap, I hope you will stay….I need your support from time to time.