What a blessing it is to live in the United States.
But.
But America is not the kingdom of God. America is not God’s plan for reaching the world. America is not our highest allegiance. This is a nation that has had great sin (slavery, greed, immorality, racism, etc.) and that has done great good (in the progress of human rights, e. g.).
If there is no America in a century, that’s tragic (in my humble opinion). But not ultimately tragic. Nations come and go.
But the reign of God will never be defeated. Even now, while the Christian faith is losing ground quickly to other religions in North America (partly because of the trivializing of it and the attempts to tie it to one or another political party), it is far outpacing other religions in places like Asia and Africa.
God bless America. And Tanzania. And Venezuela. And China. And Iran. And India. And Croatia. . . .
I suppose I might take it a bit further an specify what it was I wanted God to bless the whole world with since it’s generally assumed we mean lots of happiness and things when we say “God Bless”. I’ve wished I could get a bumper sticker made that says God bless the whole world with the knowledge of his saving grace. This being blessed with lots of stuff hasn’t drawn us any closer to God.
Yep. Here’s a very well written point of view: http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=2493
We appreciate your blogging so much. It keeps us in touch with our roots and provides us challenging ideas to ponder.
So true! We are so short sighted and arrogant in our efforts to make God an American. Some might think it treason to ask God to bless Iraq, Saddam, Bin Laden and others. I think it is the ONLY answer to the conflicts abroad.
Great post. I agree. It’s funny how people in the present day always think they have it the best. I am sure people living in the Roman Empire in the 1st and 2nd Century thought they had it so good and that Rome would never fall.
The thing I find so wearisome about this conversation is how mind-numbingly obvious it is. Of course:
Allegiance to God > Allegiance to America.
It’s like asserting that:
4 > 2.
The wearisome piece is how “controversial” this all is to some. How many Christians need such a post to point this out. And how some will go to great lengths, perhaps even in the comments to this post, to assert that 4 =2 or that 4 Allegiance to America” on the front and “True” on the back and then drill over and over. It helped with addition. Might help with theology.
My final sentences got mangled somehow.
What I recommend for those who want to assert 4 = 2 or 4 Allegiance to Country” on the front and “True” on the back. And so forth. They can then use these to practice.
Mike,
Something about the “less than sign” is cutting my posts up. Could you delete these mangled entries and put me out of my misery?
Richard
Amen and Amen.
Amen. Halleluiah, Amen.
Preach it Brother!
Amen.
I could not agree more. You just laid it out there and it is what I have been thinking for a while now and just unable to put it in words.
Boldness – we all need more boldness.
A quote from Sean Hannity last week at his speech at Harding:
“I know why you send your kids here,” Hannity said. “I’m very proud to be in a place where people put their hands over their hearts and say the pledge of allegiance with the words, ‘under God.’”
Hmmm - I would hope and think people send their kids to Harding for a much bigger reason than being able to say the Pledge of Allegiance. But, then I don’t make $5 million a year as a political debator either - and Sean does. Thanks Mike - we need to hear these words from time to time.
I am glad you confirmed it was in fact okay to say God Bless America. Some of us who do not feel God prefers this country over others, still wishes blessings upon it.
Some people can be patriotic and Christian. Thanks
Great post, Mike. I wonder what the Christian landscape might look like if we all took this idea seriously and pledged allegiance to God above ALL ELSE.
Is it a blessing to live in America? Sure. Do many Christians take this way too far? Absolutely.
Leland-
I think the problem is that many people think that God will and does bless America simply because it’s America. It’s the whole idea people have that America is the world’s hero. Look at the current situation in Iraq as an example. America trying to “rescue” a lesser country and “save” it. Some people want America to play this role, others aren’t comfortable with it. So when someone says “God bless America”, it can carry some negative connotations with people.
I think the way Mike reJoyce say it is best: God bless the whole world.
“Your kingdom come, your will be done”
KentF
I am always amazed at the brazen and yes, pharisaical way “Christians” can take a portion of what someone says and twist and distort it to mean something that someone did not mean. Kind of like taking a scripture out of context.
Remember that you will be judged by which you judge.
I’d begin to quote all the good that Mr. Hannity does and the piles of money that he and his family donate, but it wouldn’t matter to the people who have already made a decision about him due to his income.
Sometimes I believe God does NOT bless some people with loads of money because He knows that they have been and are so judgmental about those who have money.
To whom much is given, much is expected. Mr. Hannity is seeking to live up to what is expected of him.
Please keep in mind that being a supporter of the American spirit does not have to take away from being a supporter of the Gospel of Christ. I for one am weary of the attitude of those who say they are Christians, yet condemn those of us who are not bashful about being Americans. My citizenship is in Christ, but that doesn’t mean I can’t support the country in which I live.
Excellent post today.
As my sons is singing right now, “Jesus loves the little children…All the children of the world…….”
The first verse I remember memorizing as a child was John 3:16 which reminds us that “FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD.” And we all know as Christians that God wants ALL men to come to repentance.
Thanks Mike for this great reminder today.
YES! God loves the whole world and we should also.
YES! God also wants us to be good citizens of the country in which we live.
YES! Our first allegiance is to God and His Kingdom but we are not in an either or situation. In this case, we would do well to consider multi-tasking.
Kathy great point.
We must multi-task but I find it hard to walk and chew bubble gum at the same time.
Snapshot -
I understand what you are saying and I appreciate your defense of Mr. Hannity.
I cannot speak for all but I have no trouble with those “who support their country” or how much money Sean Hannity makes. My problem and concern is what the wealthy do with their money and how those who support their country do so. And this where we would probably begin to disagree.
I don’t think that what is best for America is best for the Kingdom of God. This is why I believe that we could never have a truly radical Christ following president. If we did, I think that we would not fight back when other countries struck first, our biggest priority would be the poor and needy, and we would respect all life (that of the unborn, criminals, and also animals and plants).
This is why we get into trouble discussing those who “support their country” and those who “don’t.” I often don’t “support” America (by the definition of others) because I don’t buy all the govt. is selling and I don’t really appreciate “the man” that so often is the govt. as I see it working.
The bottom line is that many people see Christian Republicans or Democrats and don’t understand how they can reconcile their Christ following with their political affiliation. Unfortunately and unfairly, this is often seen as being unsupportive of one’s country. I think this is too bad.
Mike,
I’m just coming to terms with this as a “raised Republican.” I’m married to a wonderful Canadian who has given me different viewpoints to ponder as I search out my faith. My issue: fear. Things are different for me now. I don’t like different. I want to be comfortable.
I fear for my own children that they will NOT have a safe place to pray to God. I fear for my own brothers and sisters in Christ who do NOT search out their faith as we have begun to do. I fear that I will run out of time to reach out to others that are lost.
But then I remember that fear is Satan’s tool, not God’s.
“Do not worry about what you will eat, or what you will drink, or what you will wear….”
It’s almost as if God is saying to me in all of this: “Don’t worry about the world your children will raise their children in. It’s my world anyways. Don’t worry about your life. You’re not going to add any time to it (you might even take some away from it!). Don’t worry. Just find me in every aspect of your walk. I’ll handle the details.”
Ok…so I got the wrong website down for my own blog….shows how much I actually write on it.
Here it is:
http://www.evanburdan.wordpress.com
Snapshot said “My citizenship is in Christ, but that doesn’t mean I can’t support the country in which I live.”
You’re right, of course, Snapshot… sometimes. But what happens when your two citizenships are in conflict with one another, over, say, something like torture? When the two conflict, you may find yourself in the position of the early Christians who refused to support their country by refusing to call the emperor “god.” When we tacitly or overtly approve decisions made by our national leaders that are in conflict with the values of our true leader, we are effectively saying “Caesar is God”–and when we do so, that is idolatrous. That’s what people are trying to say here.
I understand that you feel attacked in many ways. Two thirds of the country disagrees with what’s going on in the current administration, and thus disagrees most of the time with Mr. Hannity. But their motivations may not involve the kind of thoughtless dismissal of national support you suggest. For many, it involves the dilemma of having to choose whom to follow.
I can’t speak to all of Hannity’s charitable work, though I’d remind you of “all the good” that Michael Moore has done (for example, for the families of those devastated by cutbacks at Ford and GM) and the “piles of money” that he has donated. I’m sure that makes him just as noble a character and just as much a model as Mr. Hannity. Of course, the problem with both Moore and Hannity (and Rush and even Al Franken), some would suggest, has nothing to do with their personal giving but with the fact that they make their money by polarizing people, by playing to their own bases at the expense of genuine dialogue, and by demonizing their opponents.
But let’s not get tangled up in all of that. I’m sure you weren’t trying to hold up Hannity or nationalism at the expense of the true discussion here. Let’s not lose our focus on the real purpose of Mike’s post: to remind us that in a conflict between our nationalism and our faith, we can’t confuse the two, nor should we pretend that the conflict doesn’t exist. We have to choose and choose wisely–and Christians are called to choose the path of Christ. I’m sure that’s a position you also hold, and the apparent choice indicated by your message isn’t your real position; you were just you wanting to remind people that nation and faith don’t always conflict. Indeed. But when they do, I’m sure you’ll concede that Mr. Hannity isn’t as good a choice as Jesus–no matter how much of a nice guy Sean is.
Thanks for the reminder that we need to nuance our discussions here–and for the reminder that idolatry of nation, of politics, or even of television presenters isn’t a good thing.
“Two thirds of the country disagrees with what’s going on in the current administration, and thus disagrees most of the time with Mr. Hannity.”
It all depends on who you ask and how you ask it. Polls are good must be taken with a grain of salt.
Good post though Bill. I for one cannot stand Mr. Hannity. I much more prefer true Conservatives and not just Jersey Wearers.
“This world is not my home…I’m just a passing through…”
I love the way the Message puts it in Philippians 3 “We are citizens of High heaven!” Doesn’t Peter tell us in his first letter not to get too comfortable that we are aliens and strangers of this world, that our real citizenship is in heaven.
I love camping but I tell you there is no place like home and this earth in which we live is a tent to us as Christians and we must remember there is no place like home.
While I don’t have the ability to read the hearts and minds of men, I think we are assuming a bit much about the motives of people. I have NO DOUBT that some people use the phrase “God Bless America” as a reflection of superiority over other peoples, nations, and countries. But I equally have NO DOUBT that other people are using that phrase just asking for God to reign here.
When I pray “God bless James [my friend],” I’m not asking him to bless James more than anyone else or to the exclusion of others. Just because I know James, I know his needs, and I’m a part of his life, I’m more likely to pray for him. Does that excuse me from my obligations to take part in other people’s lives? NO. But it also doesn’t make it wrong for me to ask God to reign in his life.
I don’t care for extremes. I don’t like the idea that America is superior to other nations or that this county is flawless, and I also don’t like the idea that I cannot be both a Christian and support anything that America does or stands for.
Let me back up what Bill is saying with a card analogy.
If we really claim that we love God more than Country (as I think any Christian would agree with) then we are asserting that at critical moral junctures God should trump Country. That is, this “love differential” should be manifested in behavior and not just in rhetoric.
So, I guess what people get frustrated over regarding the Religious Right is that they seem to always be sitting on their trump cards. They rarely, if ever, play them. And that leads others to suspect that these Christians don’t really believe that God trumps Country. I mean, if you never play that trump card we’ll start to believe you don’t really have one in your hand. Despite what you say.
For example, take Mike’s post about torture a couple of days ago. All we Christians agree that the terrorists are our enemies. Okay, so what is the biblical witness about dealing with an enemy? Turn the other cheek or torture? Well, love of God over Country suggests that “Turn the other cheek” should trump here. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not suggesting handing out daisies to terrorists. But the “Turn the other cheek” trump card MUST give the American Christian serious pause. And I mean SERIOUS pause. For if the issue of torturing your enemies doesn’t make the American Christian circumspect or deeply reflective about the moral compass of this country then I, personally, don’t think you have a trump card in your hand.
Despite what you say
I like what Tony Campolo said about America: Using some Old Testament verbage, America may be the greatest Babylon in the world, but it’s still Babylon.
I love America. There is no other place on earth that I would want to live. I pray that God will bless America, and all the other nations of the world as well.
I believe that we are to in the Spiritual sense live as illegals. Illegals are packed for the journey, always on the move, never getting to comfortable, staying away from those busy roads where they are going to be picked up and taken back into the land we once left. No they are determained to enter a better land. A better place than the one we left. So, I hope that each and everyone of us will see ourselves as illegals and act as such in the Spiritual sense. Because no matter how blessed America is or isn’t…No matter what happens to this world..We know there is something far greater for us who are in Christ.
Snapshot-
I got on the pc late today, but I must say I would of wrote exactly what you did. Sean helps raise money for for the children of our troops, prays for our country.
Michael Moore distorts the truth in film and makes himself out to be something he is not……………..hmmm.
Oh well, have a nice day.
Mike, you are going to be careful as you venture around the country, there are many who think American is the Kingdom of God. We will pray for you! One of the leading men where I used to preach (emphasis on used too) I am sure believed America was the chosen nation. His political belief outweighed the teaching of the Son, Father and Spirit. I pray for him, because he is trapped by politcal-religious-traditionalism.
It is my humble opinion that when we become more loyal to a flag of stars and stripes instead of the cross of Christ, we have a great problem.
Great thoughts!
Lots of interesting discussion today, but I sometimes get a sense that both sides of this debate have a bit too much pride in the correctness of their position.
Someof these points about what/why the “Religious Right” believes, Sean Hannity, etc. take me back to something I heard from Raymond Kelsey “Our fears of others arise from our knowledge of ourselves”.
Richard: Precisely.
Terry: Thanks for showing us who you’d pick. Informative.
I feel like I’m reading a tabloid!
I believe in many cases here in this discussion it’s the prideful superiority of one belief over another shrouded in “Christian discussion”. It comes across as “I’m closer to God because I’m poorer than you.” or “I’mmore Godly because I support America less than you.” Sounds an awful lot like standing on a cyber street corner and shouting, “Praise you God that I’m not as sinful as these America loving, financially successful sinners.”
In the case I made for Mr. Hannity, it isn’t a matter of religious right or left. It’s a matter of judging when one shouldn’t.
I suppose torturing a man of faith by attacking his motives and disecting his income level isn’t bad in the judgement of many. Is that just fair game? Does it become OK to judge someone just because they are a public figure? If so, is that holding true to your beliefs. Or are you exempt because they are public figures?
I pray God blesses the world, and I have faith He does and will. Do you actually believe that in praying “God bless America” one is being disrepectful to all other nations. That is the most bizarre thing I’ve ever heard. If naming someone in our prayers was wrong and discrimintory we’d all just have to begin and end our prayers with “Bless”. And while that might not be a bad thing to pray, it certainly restricts and limits dialogue with the Lord and people connected emotion.
Asking someone to pray for a situation in my life is certainly not the same as me asking them to NOT pray for others.
You can’t be serious with this line of thinking. This is the weirdest discussion I’ve been involved in in a long time.
Snapshot out, gotta get to work.
Kent said “Lots of interesting discussion today, but I sometimes get a sense that both sides of this debate have a bit too much pride in the correctness of their position. ”
Kent,
I think there are points at which we can disagree and its fine to do so… but there’s just not a lot of wiggle room in the words of Christ. He told us how to act. Turn the other cheek. Go the extra mile. Forgive forgive forgive. Our government tells us when someone wrongs us, we blow them up. Using force is against Christ. The point where, to us, it appears violence would have been the most necessary, in the Garden, Jesus tells the disciples to put away their swords and he heals the guy’s ear. The Kingdom of God is an alternate way of doing things. It is completely opposed to the kingdoms of the world, because the principalities and powers control through a power over method; through force. The kingdom of God persues its ends by serving and sacrifice, and Jesus made it quite clear where that leads.
I am all for looking at things differently and having room for interpretation. But this is the crux of the matter (no pun intended). Will you go to heaven if you kill people and support the government. Yes. Will you find the abundant life that Jesus offered and will you be helping to bring his kingdom. Nope.
Amen, Mike! Most of my life, it’s not been easy for me to comprehend how or why the U.S. would be some sort of modern Holy Land. God’s people are God’s people regardless of nationality, race, etc. True, there are things about modern America that are unchristian, but there were plenty of other immoral acts in earlier American times. What about racism, slavery, treatment of women, treatment of Native Americans? Simply referencing God on our currency doesn’t make us entirely Christian.
If America doesn’t always stand, there’s no reason for Christians to be afraid. Christianity isn’t going to fall with it.
Using force is against Christ.
Unless you were a money-changer in the temple.
Jesus didn’t go in the temple and mow down moneychangers with an AK 47.
Snapshot, perhaps I misunderstood what you were up to. Given your most recent post, I guess we should consider your trump card played.
Unless, of course, I’ve misunderstood you again, and what you’re really saying (given your argument) is that both extremes are wrong and we should seek a middle path–that judging that “I’m right because I’m not a nationalist” is just as ridiculous as judging that “I’m right because I am a nationalist.” I do see some of that sort of extremism here, but I don’t think you have to convince most of us that such extremism is bad. Most of us are having a far more nuanced and thoughtful discussion of the interplay between nation and faith than that.
Of course, if you are calling us away from such extremist rhetoric, then you surely didn’t mean to defend Sean Hannity, whose methods and position represent one of the extremes. Or perhaps you feel that extremism is not necessarily bad, just once again a poor rationale for holding a position. I agree. In that case, I’m sure you meant to defend not only “Mr. Hannity” but also “Mr. Moore and Mr. Limbaugh and Mr. Franken…” and anyone else regardless of their position since obviously you don’t believe it’s okay to “judge someone just because they are a public figure.”
If you are shooting for that middle way, then it certainly didn’t come out clearly in your message and you might want to give it another shot. Indeed, your most recent post looks like yet another attempt to assert “the prideful superiority of one belief [in this case nationalism] over another shrouded in ‘Christian discussion.’” As you’ve argued, that wouldn’t be the right thing to do at all…
Imagine one Sunday morning, a man (in his 30’s) pulls into the church parking lot driving a Rolls Royce. He is dressed in the finest cloths and is wearing a ring with a huge diamond in it. His material wealth is evident to all. He is THE richest man in the assembly. He has a magnetic charisma about him – members are attracted to the visitor. He is also quite handsome. Before the worship begins, we find out he is a member of the church – so we ask him to lead a prayer.
In the prayer, this man says the following, “God bless me.”
Most of the time, this is how I feel when I hear brothers saying “God bless America” in their prayers. Most times it sounds to me as if it is a selfish prayer. (Granted – it’s the tone, emotion, ferventness in which it is stated vs. the words themselves.)
The difficulty with mixing Christianity and government (in ANY nation) - seems to me -is this: Jesus was and taught selflessness. Nations (even the USA) are based in self interest. Even though, as Americans we frame our nation’s actions in the most idealistic notions – an honest examination of history, leads us to the conclusion that we act (or don’t act) in our nation’s self interest. Our (Americas) rhetoric/ability/capacity to act for good/justice in the physical world do not match our actual interventions in the world. The Kingdom of God is about serving – not serving only when WE reap personal benefits.
The more I learn, study and mature spiritually, I find David Lipscomb’s conclusions regarding our (Christians) relationship to civil government are drawn from scriptural wisdom.
I believe our struggle is having a worldly view of the Kingdom of God vs. a “Kingdom of God” view of the world.
When I pray in worship, I don’t pray for “America.” I pray that God blesses those in his Kingdom throughout this world. This way the prayer focuses on the body on Christ – whether part of that body is in America, Mexico, France, Iran, Iraq, etc.
I have the following magnet in my office: “God bless America shouldn’t mean God damn everyone else.” I think if we are going to pray for God to bless America, then we shouldn’t omit the rest of the world from the prayer – whether those other parts of the world are “for us or against us.”
Doug Doser
Eastside Church of Christ
Phoenix, AZ
Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I’m not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool; you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
Doug, so, praying that God bless my family, my church, my community is somehow wrong? I have to disagree. I like the post above that asking God to bless America is not asking him to not bless others.
One other thing -
Keeping our prayers focussed on the spiritual Kingdom of God keeps us above this whole politically/Christian/worldy divisive issue(s). We need to focus on the Kingdom of God with all our being and leave the kingdoms of man to their own devices. This solves the issue.
My newspaper carrier came to my door one night to collect and since I was one of the paper’s columnists, he assumed I wanted to talk politics. He went on and on about America this and America that and how we, as God’s chosen nation, needed to back to the Christian principles upon which our country was founded. After a monumental effort to keep from rolling my eyes, I said, “America isn’t God’s chosen nation. Israel is.” He just stared at me.
Remember when the war on terror was initially named “Operation Infinite Justice?” We are human — nothing we do is infinite. Seriously, just who do we think we are?
Deana, yes.
And actually, the war was originally code-named “Operation Iraqi Liberation.” Sometimes the acronym just fits.
Tim -
To answer honestly - possibly, possibly not. I think we should always take our concerns to the Lord. However, I think we should also pray that HIS will be done. As Christians, I believe we do have special status with God. In praying for worldly Kingdonms/politics - we, as Christians need tokeep ourselves above divisive politics.
We need to pray that we, as Christian in America can truly be “blessed as peacekeepers” in such a politically divided nation. This is different than being polically “moderate.” I think it means putting away politics/national interst and being about God’s business.
Hopefully that clarifies some of my previous post.
I’ll just open myself up here. The following is a long prayer I fely “inspired” to write and prayed last Sunday during worship:
Lord we approach your throne this morning in the context of Jesus’ teaching and your word being real commandments in which we should live our lives – not simply nice sayings or things we only play lip service to.
We pray that we be shocked out of our naiveté and our complacency that is so easy to accept as Christians who happen to live in America. While 9/11 was a tragedy – and we continue to pray for those who lost loved ones and much more – we pray that event has led us to view the world in the way in which it really is – Fallen and in need of your word, presence, and love.
We pray that the wealth we enjoy in this nation and consider a blessing hasn’t become a stumbling block or given us a false sense of “special favor” in your sight.
We pray that we, as Christians not confuse worldly wars of physical death and destruction with the true day-by-day spiritual battle to glorify you and lead others to salvation in your heavenly Kingdom. We pray that we recognize and know the difference between worldly liberty and the spiritual freedom you offer in your Kingdom.
We pray that we do not compartmentalize our Christianity and our “worldliness” – having the ability to switch back and forth whenever it is the most convenient for either. We pray that we incorporate the values of a Christ-centered life – into our involuntary thoughts and actions. We pray that we truly live Christ’s teachings 24 hours a days, seven days a week until we breathe our last breath. Give us the strength, determination, and humbleness to make this so. Be with us as we strive to be above the world yet in the world at the same time. Keep us focused on, and always recognizing the narrow path. Help us not to fall in the ditch of unrighteousness on the one side or the ditch of self-righteousness on the other.
We pray that our commitment to Christ is not directly correlated with political freedom. We pray that we, as Christians would have the same commitment to your commands and desire to worship you – under the worst of political conditions. In other words, Lord we pray that each and every one of us would be here in your presence – even if there was a real threat of physical death. Instill in us the commitment of those early Christians who were willing to die in the Roman arena before they would deny you before men.
We pray for the nation we live in. We pray for all the worldly nations of this earth. We pray that we recognize events – whether positive or tragic – as spiritual opportunities to serve and glorify your name by helping and teaching those around us. Create in us a spiritual outlook toward this world instead of a worldly outlook toward your Kingdom.
We pray for all our political leaders and government officials – elected, appointed, hired, advisors, and consultants. We especially pray for those who have accepted Jesus. Let their Christianity reign over the temptations to act as the world acts. Let their “yes” mean yes and their “no” mean no. Let their actions and leadership reflect your Son’s teachings. Allow them to love their enemies and act like it – whether that enemy is simply on the other side of the political spectrum or a Terrorist. Allow them to be motivated by the Gospel in how they treat others vs. worldly fear. Allow their responsibility to govern effectively and competently overcome selfish desire for power. Allow them to focus on honesty; Let the results of effective government speak for their ability vs. harsh rhetoric and name calling - that divides. We pray for political leaders who can effectively govern this nation and interact with the other governments of this world.
Regardless of political affiliation, I know you don’t want us, as your body, divided over earthly politics. Help us as a nation and individual Christians realize this. Help us to strive to be above politics. Give us the wisdom to seek out and understand what the Christian’s true relationship to Civil Government should be. Give us spiritual perspective. Allow us to be “blessed,” as peacekeepers in such a harsh, divided, name calling political climate.
In the context of a nation at war in the worldly and spiritual sense – help us to remember that sin in sin. Help us to not justify sin because that sin somehow advances noble worldly or political goals. Let all of our actions, regardless of circumstances be in line with Jesus’ teachings and not justified through our earthly fears and weaknesses.
As Christians, we know that the only way to you is through Jesus. Open the hearts of our non-Christian, yet religious brothers and sisters in such a way that their spiritual writings may lead them to you. Lord, allow us, as Christians the world over to stand up and show others a better way of living vs. telling them how to live.
Help us to look at ourselves through the mirror of Jesus’ teachings. Help us to see ourselves as we really are – sinners. Help us to have the strength and honesty to make the changes we need to make in ourselves in order to live as you have commanded us to live. We understand your grace, but do not allow us to ever misuse or take advantage of it.
If we have any of the issues of the seven churches in John’s Revelation, we pray that we recognize those, repent and carry on, further reflecting your glory. Continue to open our eyes to the meaning of your word. Allow us to seek a deeper understanding as well as apply it to our lives.
Lord, you know my heart, help me to make the changes that I need to make to be the best use in your Kingdom.
We pray for each of us, as our bodies are temples. We pray that we take care of those temples in a physical and spiritual sense. We know that the Kingdom of God dwells in us. Help us to keep ourselves pure. Let us see ourselves for what we truly are – spiritual beings, belonging to you – yet occupying physical bodies in a physical world. Let us act in a way in which our neighbors see us as more than simply good, moral people. Help us to act and them to see, a people focused on your Kingdom; serving others; and unafraid of physical death or facing worldly concerns.
Lord, rightly or wrongly, we tend to think we are pretty good at the “thou shall not’s.” Help us to be better with your commandments of those things we need to take action on – going into the world, taking care of physical and spiritual needs of the least of our brothers. Let us never forget that anyone Christ died for is our brother, sister, neighbor. Help us to resist the temptation to be distracted into arguments over the best way to help the “least of our brothers.” Help us to act in this area as Jesus did time after time– moved with compassion. Allow compassion in us to overcome the methodology and rationalization of our actions or in-actions in this area. Allow us the time and clarity to truly see and understand needs, and then take care of those in need. Fill us with the compassion of Jesus and his ability to see our brother’s needs.
This is our prayer to you. Thank you for all the gifts you have given us – especially the ones we have yet to fully realize.
Amen
Was God blessing us when we were getting rid of the Native Americans, or when we were giving up our slaves, or during our Civil war, or when we were finally allowing you little ladies to vote? Surely God blessed us through all that? Or, was it in spite of that? Thank God for His grace.
I sure am glad we defeated the Nazi’s when we did!
Tim, I hear what you’re saying. I, too, fear that we haven’t learned the lessons of defeating the Nazis, who so closely connected faith with nationalism–worshipping the führer was made the same as worshipping God, and the state became the church…
And I agree with you that we’re slipping so much toward fascism in our country today, driven by rampant patriotism and the exploitation of a propagandistic media.
So thanks for your post, and I hear you–you’re right to remind us of the lessons we’ve learned in the past. We shouldn’t have to fight this nationalism vs. faith battle all over again… To do so undermines the sacrifices of those who gave their lives. Thanks for reminding us that Jesus is the source to whom we should turn, not military strength or nationalism.
“I sure am glad we defeated the Nazi’s when we did!” - Tim
Me too. (As a side, one of my “vices” is collecting WWII diecsast airplanes.)
But let me ask this: If we had not defeated the Nazis, would Jesus’ commands and God’s expectations be any different or less of us?
Jesus said - Don’t fear those who can take your life, but those who can take your soul (obviously paraphrased). As Christians, we should have no fear of physical death - from Nazis, Commies, or even Terrorists. These are all irrelevent to our salvation.
The early Christians acted out of love, God’s will, and Jesus’ commandments regardless of the government they lived under.
I’m not sure I get how the “Nazi” comment is rellevent to this discussion. (I know I have addressed it and further hijacked the discussion as well.)
I perceived the focus to be on prayer, the Kingdom of God, and America.
America, Rome, Britian, etc. as nations have all done good things and bad. I believe God uses good nations/men and bad nation/men to further his will.
Good arguments for Christians to get above the worldly politics and further the (spiritual) kingdom. Seems to me our business is about changing hearts vs. changing laws, governments, etc.
What does that mean, Tim? That God blessed us so that we could overcome Germany? Is that how it works?
Godwin’s Law anyone?
It means what it says. Simple as that. If you don’t understand it, I’m afraid no lengthy explanation would ever suffice.
Ah. So Tim has played his “trump card” as well. Informative.
*sigh*
When will we ever see that the encroachment of domestic politics into the church does nothing but bring out the very worst in us?
*sigh*
qb
Mere discipleship by Camp
What if…? by Yoder
b blessed
russkirby.blogspot.com
I think that Richie had the best thought today:
“When I pray “God bless James [my friend],” I’m not asking him to bless James more than anyone else or to the exclusion of others. Just because I know James, I know his needs, and I’m a part of his life, I’m more likely to pray for him. Does that excuse me from my obligations to take part in other people’s lives? NO. But it also doesn’t make it wrong for me to ask God to reign in his life.”
I said, “America isn’t God’s chosen nation. Israel is.”
Actually, CHRISTIANS are God’s chosen nation. Israel isn’t anymore.
Good stuff Mike
A few more points to ponder . . . . .
1. God is neither Republican nor Democrat. He is certainly The Ultimate Independant. His agenda is bigger than our politics. As the song says, “Kings and kingdoms will all pass away, but there’s something about that Name!”
2. Truth is never determined by majority vote.
3. Governing authorities are called on by God to be public servants and administer justice on behalf of God in this world (Romans 13:1-7).
4. Christians have dual citizenship. We are to give Ceasar what is belongs to him and give to God what belongs to HIM. While dwelling here as resident alients, We are to “Seek the welfare of the city where we dwell” and “pray to the LORD on its behalf, for in its peace you shall have peace.” (Jeremiah 29:7) There is no time to be passive while others need a touch of God’s grace.
5. We are to pray for “Kings and all those in authority” (1 Tim. 2:2)
6. While it is good to sing “God Bless America”, America (and every other nation) will do even better to bless God.
Justin, Godwin’s law indeed… the last gasp of the rhetorically incompetent (and yes, I’m also talking to you Donald R).
Check it out at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Seriously, Tim? Is it that obvious? Or am I just stupid? Please have the decency to explain some random tidbit that you write in a comment. Surely you don’t see yourself as that far above me that I just have no chance to “get it.”
Being “mildly patriotic” is like being “mildly alcoholic.” If something is a bad thing, it doesn’t matter whether you’re in for a penny or in for a pound.
Tim -
I like the quote in your 1:09 post.
Lets pray for God to reign in the foreign and domestic policy of the US.
Lets pray that we can hold our nations policies and government leaders’ actions up to the sermon on the mount.
I’m not really serious about the above statements. I think the key thing here is to pray sincerely and unselfishly with god’s will at the forefront of the prayer.
Again, (as stated/alluded to in one of my earlier posts), I don’t think the words “God Bless America” are the issue. I think it is an issue of examing ones self, motivations, and what one is really asking for.
Praying for individuals and specific needs reflects much deeper thinking/prayer requests and a simple “God Bless America.” Again, what does that mean? Are we praying that we kill all our enemies on the battlefiel? Are we praying that we get all the oil we need? Cheap gas prices? Let’s pray for “blessings” specifically, sincerely, as well as with all our minds.
Are our prayers focused on God’s will and scripture or are they focussed on material wants?
Nothing wrong with praying for individuals or nations. Let’s just keep are prayers focused on God’s will.
(My original post wasn’t a criticism of the words “GBA” it was focused on the way in which I here these petitions presented. “As if” America was God’s chosen nation and in selfrighteous tones - i.e. “Christian nation”, etc. We are not Israel and we don’t need to delude ourselves with that idea. The idea of ANY “Christian” nation or that America is it, as a theological concept - seems to not be in line with the NT.)
We are all brothers and sisters in Christ - regardless of differences of opinion. Let’s remember that these posts are all geared toward furthering God’s Kingdom. I can only speak for myself, but please realize my posts are sincere and simply based on my increased study/understanding of scripture. I’m still struggling to submit myself truly to God’s will and have a long way to go in my spiritual walk.
Take care brothers and sisters.
Chris, the basic idea is that I feel that too many people would simply sit on their hands in woe if something like WWII happend again with Nazi Germany.
“With great power comes great responsibility.” -Peter Parker
About Hannity’s appearance at Harding, check out the Searcy article: http://www.thedailycitizen.com/articles/2006/09/23/news/top_stories/top01.txt. An interesting discussion about it here: http://www.kendallball.com/2006/09/24/alma-mater-hail-redux/.
Thanks
Tim,
Pacifism isn’t sitting on ones hands. Pacifism isn’t doing nothing. Its finding creative non violent solutions to problems.
If the German people hadn’t been Germans before Christians, maybe they would have stood up to the evils that Hitler was involved in, rather than going along with him. When your country moves in a direction that goes against what Christ preaches, you protest and stand up to evil, but you shouldn’t “be over come by evil, but overcome evil with good” If we voice our opposition to whatever evils are being done, even if it cost our lives, it shows the injustice of the system, and eventually, even evil peoples minds will be changed. Hitler can’t destroy a group of people if no one will do his bidding.
Here’s the description of the event from a new Facebook Group called “Sean Hannity Has Brought Shame and Humiliation Upon Harding University”:
“We just paid someone $50,000 to make fun of people (possibly more, possibly less, but a reasonable estimate based on past speakers). Not only did he rather childishly make fun of liberals but he went as far as to humiliate a student with a legitimate spiritual conundrum regarding what the bible teaches about turning the other cheek. Great! Isnt it just wonderful the way that people who claim to be Christians turn off their brains and blindly applaud someone acting it complete opposition to the teaching of Jesus Christ. For the record there are hundreds of people in need right here in Searcy who would have benefited greatly from a share of that money.”
The members of the facebook group are Harding faculty, students, and friends.
An interesting discussion of it here, too: http://www.markaelrod.net/2006/09/21/defending-america-the-sean-hannity-way#comments
Emily72, could not agree more. He was a horrible choice to bring to HU.
Mere Discipleship by Lee Camp is INDEED an awesome read. I know Lee well (he’s a member here and teaches class on Sundays). I respect him deeply. McLaren even quoted him in his last book.
Clint…awesome quote from PB. You know Mike will love that. Hilario!
Beaner…I’m with you.
At the risk of being called a Pharisee or something worse for the second time in one day - the most outrageous comment Mr. Hannity reportedly made was…
“If you’re conservative you believe that God’s greatest gift to mankind in the gift of history is the USA.”
Two replies:
1) Some might argue that Jesus was God’s greatest gift.
2) This can’t be corroborated with audio tape because Mr. Hannity does not allowing taping of his speeches, which is reasonable to me. However, I’ve read no fewer than 5 people’s comments who were in attendance state he did say this.
It is quite the buzz these days on Harding’s campus, however.
Chinese Christian writer Watchman Nee was asked to pray at a pre-WW2 conference, sitting between the representatives of Japan and China (as I “think” I remember the article, Japan was soon to invade China). He was in a “tight spot” but he said in his prayer that he would not ask GOD to bless Japan or China, but for GOD’s blessings for the interests of Christ in Japan and the interests of Christ in China.
Amen and amen.
And what a blessing it would be to grow up in Venezuela, Croatia, or maybe even China…could the imprisoned Chinese Christians teach us all more than a little something about “blessing?” I’m sure so.
After living overseas, I realized what a blessing an American passport is…and what a curse American pornography, cigarettes, and materialism are. We are blessed…not better, not worse, but definitely we are different…just as “they” are different.
My own personally recent deep evaluation of this was the debate over whether little Elian Gonzales should be sent back to Cuba. Father’s rights over freedom? Communism over capitalism? The “good” life over the “not so good” life (depending on your definition)? Only when I turned the tables did I see how incensed we would become over the termination of a US child’s parent(s)’ parental rights due to another country’s political agenda or the wishes of extended family…and I realized that little boy could grow up happy, healthy, and live a life for Christ if he chose, in Cuba just as well as in the United States, Fidel or no Fidel. Of course, his was a family situation, so as always, was much more complicated that this short paragraph could detail; however, what was unnecessary was the public judgment of what was “best” for the boy based solely on what country he grew up in.
The world is broad and wide, and we are a part of it, but certainly not all of it.
Ann Coulter? (Who was invited and then uninvited as a result, largely, of pressure from this blog–as well as other blogs.) Sean Hannity?
Who is making decisions at Harding University? What has happened to its Christian heritage? When will a new president be appointed? Is the board leading or the president?
Food for thought:
Perhaps God has different expectations and uses from nations than from individuals? I.e., in the Torah He required the individual to repay every injury or death with same — but He didn’t require them to repay the enemies that He told them to attack and fight in war. He told them to plunder Egypt when they left. He works differently with nations than He does with individuals. “The LORD is a Warrior; the LORD is His name.” Likewise, in the NT we have the example of Jesus and the teaching of the apostles on the moral purity and piety of the individual believer; it is not a divine treatise on international political ethics.
Why didn’t Jesus tell the centurion to quit the army? Instead he held him up as an example of faith before all Israel.
When Assyria, Babylon and Persia were warring, pillaging, raping and plundering Palestine in the name of empire, God called Cyrus “my anointed” on who’s behalf He would “break through bars of bronze and iron”. Even though God admitted that Cyrus didn’t realize He was doing God’s will. Was God exercising a double-standard here?
Mike, thanks for speaking the truth, as always.
This message is needed today as possibly never before. What are we thinking?
Emily72, a word about good old Harding U. I was there from 1968-1972. The flag waving was going strong then and had been since post-WWII and the work of George Benson and the work of his organization. So right-wing, pro-American and beginning the work of knitting that political agenda together with Christianity as understood by Dr. Benson and others like him that by the time I was in graduate school at Tulane University, I had a prof in my first graduate reading seminar tell me that he hoped that Harding had not unduly rubbed off on me!
I loved being at Harding U. because of the fact that my wife was there, the trout fishing was great and the humanities and much of the Bible departments were untouched by the politics. I underline “much” because some was gone, gone, gone on the red scare. Harding was a place to get a liberal education largely by reaction formation! It is sad to see it even more to the right today.
It would be interesting to know the ages of the writers today. Seems like maybe the thoughts being expressed has more to do with where we’ve been instead of where we are going. I have heard the phrase Govenment schools speaking of our public education system. Since I was a part of that for years, I never put much stock in it. But it is interesting.
Emily72,
I heard through the grapevine that President David B. Burks has just been given seven more years at the helm.
Well, hip…hip…hooray…
I heard Don McLaughlin at the ACU lectureships use the word kingship, rather than kingdom when referring to our true citizenship. We are under the kingship of Jesus, regardless of what “kingdom” if you will, that we happen to be part of. Sometimes, our language trips us up.
I hear a few folks here defending their right/privilege/obligation to “bless America.” Many of you have agreed with Mike’s basic premise that America is to be blessed no more and no less than any other nation in the world. Do you ask God to bless Chile as much as you ask God to bless America? What about Burundi? Slovakia? Maybe Singapore? To me, one ought to utter the phrase “God Bless America” ONLY if one is in the practice of asking God’s blessing on the rest of the world. Sadly, I haven’t heard much of the latter.
Which brings me to another side item: What does “God Bless America” even mean? Is it:
“God, Bless America” — a humble prayer
or
“God, Bless America” — a mandate for God to bless our nation
or
“God Bless America” - a grammatically incorrect way of saying that God has blessed or will continue to bless our nation
I don’t think most people even know what they are singing when the seventh inning stretch comes at Yankee Stadium … they just feel good saying the words “God” and “America” in the same sentence.
And whoever thinks that that phrase hasn’t been used to justify some pretty rediculous — nay, evil — actions at the hands of our country, then you’re blind.
America, Bless God! is my prayer.
Hello folks. Yes, I agree. I do think it was a bad choice to bring Hannity to Harding University, however I didn’t think this would turn into a huge Harding bashing blog either.
Larry, it may be sad to see Harding turn so far to the right as you said but it’s a whole lot better then to see it turn to the left planned parenthood set up shop there.
Larry:
“Much” of Harding today is still untouched by the politics of the very few representing ASI. Unfortunately the few can and do influence Harding’s public face. Be assured, deep inside, Harding is NOT its public face.
I know, Shannon. One of the saddest parts about the antics of “Harding” the last few years is that it rarely represents the majority of its students or faculty. Friends that I have made from Harding are the most thoughtful, spiritual, and personable that I have ever known. Many of our greatest friends in the world are Harding graduates. The faculty is generally devoted, intelligent, independent thinking and loving. It is a shame that a few at the top have decided to put forth quite a different image in many of its policies and decisions over the years.
Thank you, Shannon.
I would venture to agree with ftwskies. Sometimes I think the “Turn the other cheek” verse is used in the wrong context. Jesus was speaking on an individual basis at that point. I took an Honors colloquium where we spent six weeks diving into this exact issue. And of course, we never all came to an agreement, even though everyone in that room is a Christian. The saddest thing to me is the times that we don’t use our resources to help those around the world being oppressed. Why didn’t we come to the rescue of 800,000 Rwandans being murdered? Why are we still letting thousands of Ugandan children sleep in hospitals to avoid being captured by rebel armies? Please don’t get me wrong. There are no easy answers for the questions I posed. I certainly don’t have them. But I do know that as long as we live in a fallen world, “there will always be wars and rumors of wars.” So, yes, God bless America, and help us to be a blessing to the world. And God bless Rwanda. And Uganda. And Brazil. And Korea. And Iraq. And……
It is interesting to me that when the the children of Israel were carried off to Babylon, Jeremiah gave them a revelation from God on what they were to do:
Jeremiah 29: 4-7 : “Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, to all the exiles whom I have sent into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon: 5 Build houses and live in them; plant gardens and eat their produce. 6 Take wives and have sons and daughters; take wives for your sons, and give your daughters in marriage, that they may bear sons and daughters; multiply there, and do not decrease. 7 But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the LORD on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare.
That City was, of course, Babylon. Jeremiah went on to say that after 70 years that the Lord would return to them and lead them back to Jerusalem, which he did. If Nebuchanezzer can be God’s instrument and the children of Israel are told to pray to the Lord on Babylon’s behalf because its welfare depended upon their welfare…I think we have permission to pray for all governments in which Christians find themselves in this world today.
God still reigns and he is not done with Israel yet if we believe what Paul said in Romans 11:25-27:
“25 Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, 26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; 27 “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
Mike, Can we talk about ‘Veggie Tales’ being on NBC? Sure, they had to cut out some references to God, but maybe some kids who don’t know about God will be exposed to the positive messages or just like the characters & buy the DVDs.
But, i’m sure there’s plenty in this story for a good debate too!
I am surprised at some of the feelings here toward Harding, but then, I sent two kids there. One is finishing this year and loves it, and the other left early because she couldn’t stand it! So that just reflects the same diversity on this blog. Human response is always so varied, isn’t it? And aren’t we glad that we don’t all think alike?
Wow, you guys sure like to beat up on those individuals and schools that don’t agree with you.
I’d say it’s been fun, but today it has not.
This has just made me sick and disappointed.
Debate is one thing……..
Have fun blogging amongst yourselves.
Snapshot out….for good.
Larry,
The graduate school professor was out of line. Just teach the course. Avoid explicit personal prejudices or preferences about students’ backgrounds.
Dave
Wow. What a forum. How did it go from Bless Tanzania to “I don’t think Hannity should come to Harding?”
Speaking of Tanzania, after much prayer and fasting and leadership demonstrated by the shephards of the DT church in Searcy, they have selected Tanzania as the next missionfield to embrace. “Go ye into ALL the world…”
Great thoughts, Mike
I fail to see why everyone has to engage in endless debate over everything. Smile and be happy…we are blessed.
Wow. I agree with snapshot. How sad that so much Harding bashing must go on simply because you don’t like how conservative it is. Here is a clue folks…don’t go. You know what it is prior to sending your kids there so don’t complain about it when you see and hear things you don’t like. Sheesh! I would MUCH rather my children go to HU then some liberal school that would teach them that Homosexuality, abortion and other ilk is perfectly fine and acceptable.
Sometimes I wake up and review the course of a blog journey . . . and am surprised. As I’ve said before, the student experience at Harding is quite different than some of the politics that make headlines. People like my friends Monte Cox and Ross Cochran are training and equipping students for missions all over the world. For that, I’m very thankful. And I’ve heard more than one ACU graduate professor talk about how well prepared the Harding students who come here for their grad studies are.
Keith - Glad to hear about the group forming from Downtown. We have a wonderful young couple that has just left Highland for Tanzania. You can read about them here. (You’ll love this recent entry about Sam — with whom I got to climb to the top of Africa in Tanzania!) I got to grab a meal with one of your preachers who was here speaking for the ACU lectureship. It’s exciting to hear him talk about that church.
Snapshot - I have noticed over a few years that people who disagree with comments tend to find them sick and disgusting — whereas if they agree with the comments they think they’re all right (even if they would have worded it differently). I’ve just read through these comments. It’s not where I thought the discussion would go. And I don’t agree with everything, by any means.
Cindy Hanson - excellent thoughts!
Thanks for the follow-up comments Mike. I guess I feel somewhat responsible since I’m the first to type Sean and Harding on this thread. I thought the parallel in that issue was hand in glove with this thread, but my intention was certainly not to hi-jack the thread’s direction, rather to under-score that this is a pretty big issue right now. I think the number and variance in comments reflect that it is a pretty hot button. And, I too have learned over the years you cannot imagine the course a conversation will take on a hot button topic.
FOR SALE: 2006 Liberal Bandwagon. Elitist Edition. V-1/2 Hybrid. Color: Grey. 2 Dr. Minor damage to front-end from driving into ditch. Pulls to left. $2000 or possible trade for scooter. Phone:555-5555. ask for Larry.
Broke my own decision to not look back. Just had to come back and check out what was said in a last ditch effort, so I did and lo and behold I’m misquoted. And I simply won’t stand for being accused of saying things I did not. Like my comments or not, at least get them right when quoting.
I never said this discussion was sick and disgusting. Reread the posts!!!!
I said this made me feel “SICK AND DISAPPOINTED”.
Geez Louise.