Reasons Torture Is Always Wrong
David Gushee’s article entitled “5 Reasons Torture Is Always Wrong” in Christianity Today is just excellent. He includes these insightful words from Senator McCain, who remains a voice of sanity in this divided country: “This isn’t about who they are. This is about who we are. These are the values that distinguish us from our enemies.”
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Hope to see some of you in the next few days. I’m teaching a lectureship class at 9:45 — it’s one of 25 classes offered at that time. That’s quite a few!
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Who actually watches infomercials and buys the products, making them worthwhile to the companies? Seriously.
Who responds to junk mail so that it continues to be profitable enough to send?
Who is buying all those zillions of viagra pills in response to spam?
Who is buying stuff in response to marketing calls so that it pays off?
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Wish we hadn’t eaten spinach out of a bag last night. Why do those health warnings always come out the morning AFTER you’ve had what they’re warning you about.
My wife wasn’t feeling well Wednesday, so we left our church service early and were home by 7:15. I was quite surprised to receive a telemarketing call from Harding U. barely five minutes after we walked through the door.
Of course this would happen the week I went vegetarian. (Chris F. helped inspire me.) I never dreamed spinach could kill somebody. Eventually we’ll all have to give up everything and become a nation of anorexics.
Oh — and I usually hate informercials, but I’m asking for “Bare Minerals” for Christmas.
I don’t undertsand how anyone could be “ok” with torturing another human being to gain information. And the rhetoric about “it’s saving lives” doesn’t fly for me. Can someone who believes this is ok please tell me how you reconcile this with your faith?
And what’d they say is bad about spinach? Spinach?!?!?
Mike, have a good one at the ACU lectures. My first visit was around 1987 when the exhibitors were in a big tent. I was helping College Press set up when a man walked up and said, “You’re from College Press, right? Well, you’re going to hell – but ACU will beat you there!” Even though I had just been consigned to the flames, I felt like I was in good company – not that either organization is hellbound! As Don DeWelt used to say, “There’s too much ‘hell’ in some peoples’ ‘hello.’”
I’m not sure about the infomercials…those things drive me nuts. But the telemarketers…
I got a call this week actually, a follow-up call actually, because 6 months ago when they called I actually listened to their “spill” then too. It is a company called the Dove Foundation who is trying to get people to watch more GOOD movies. Movies that are family friendly. Films that are cutting the crud language, sex scenes and violence out.
The last time they called me I was still pretty much the “poor college student,” so I told them I couldn’t buy any of their films, but this time around I’m a little better off financially so I told them I’d get one.
I can’t help but join a cause like that that is trying to better films nowadays. The website is http://www.dove.org if you are interested in the good family films.
As for the spinach….yeah, I sure did get it on my Subway sandwich on Tuesday, when I normally don’t (thought I’d go a little healthier that day), and then sure heard about all this e.coli business. But I’m still probably going to get it on my subway again today…HA!
Popeye would be fine. His spinach came out of a can rather than from a little bag. I guess the lesson here is to ignore the “washed and ready” note and go ahead and wash it good anyway.
Victor, great story. I’d like to believe the guy had a grin on his face, but i’m afraid he was serious.
It depends how one defines “torture”. Is giving a prisoner a metal cot, blanket and pillow torture? What about the size of the cell or 4 straight hours of interrogation? What about making them listen to “rock and roll”?
Some of the things that groups describe as “torture” are petty and nothing more than light college hazing.
I don’t care what they say.
I’m never going back to spinach in a can.
I’m sure there’s a line forbidding it in the Geneva Convention document.
i am against torture as well, that is why i will not listen to some preachers. Which brings up a good idea. Make the terrorist listen to ___________.
I can well understand Sen. McCain’s fixation on prisoner torture and also feel he takes his demands too far at time. However, as Tim says, who will define what is torture. Some would say the very fact that they’re incarcerated would be enough to deem it torture.
For instance, shaming or embarassing a prisoner of war is NOT torture, beatings are imho.
I’m on the ‘do not call’ list, so don’t get telemarketing calls, other than local ones that use the phone book to call people. When they begin their presentation after asking who they’re wanting to speak with, I tell them I don’t accept calls from people who don’t know my family members’ names, and hang up.
Several years ago I ordered a couple of things and was happy with the products – they were as presented, with one exception which I returned and did receive full refunds.
Junk mail and spam email? Into the trash with both of them.
btw Mike, you cannot wash off ecoli. The warning I heard this morning said if you have ANY bagged spinach, throw it away. Cooking, washing will NOT get rid of the ecoli. Buy fresh spinach, out of bag spinach, frozen or canned and you’ll probably be okay but washing bagged spinach is not going to protect from ecoli. Sorry.
David Gushee is a great writer in general. I don’t think I’ve read his article in Christianity Today, but he teaches just up the road from here, and he contributes frequent columns to our local newspaper. One of his most recent was on torture. Brilliant piece. He has a way of stepping away from political rhetoric (left- or right-wing) and taking a hard honest look through a truly Christian lense.
Mike, I’m still hoping for the day that HU has you as the keynote at their Lectures. Prayers for all the speakers, presenters, & participants at the ACU Lectures. I would love to feel “the fresh winds” blowing there!
In Gushee’s own words: So I do not write to demonize those who believe that protecting our nation’s security requires the use of interrogation techniques that could be classified as borderline torture. Nor do I want to get into a technical and detailed argument about particular interrogation techniques to determine if they are torture. What I want to focus on is the idea that, given the war on terror, the gloves should be taken off. Simply put, should our government have the option—even if used only rarely and in extreme circumstances—of torturing prisoners?
Do people really need to define torture? What is the defination if “is”? It is just the presidents way of having permission to torture. Wake up people. Secret prisons, Gitmo…If you read article 3 of the Geneva Convention it is very clear on what torture is and the things that will not be done to prisoners. Article 3 is about how we treat humanity in times of war. Rules. If I trust anyone it is Colin Powell and John McCain.
If any country should set the example of how to treat humans, it should be the united states. Even the worst of criminals, murders and rapists, in America we don’t torture. When we do torture and don’t want to follow geneva convention then we become just as bad as the enemies we are fighting against.
Thanks for the waring about Spinach. I get my Spinach on pizza at CiCi’s, that’s all.
True torture is not right, ever. But as it has been said, what is torture for some is not torture for others. Listening to loud horrible music for hours on end is not torture to teenagers, but it’s reason for filing a law suit from terrorists suspects. Which brings me to a bigger point. I find it amazing that such detailed care is taken in making sure terror suspects aren’t “tortured” (I use this term loosely) but it seems many don’t want to consider the torture that has been stopped around the world as a result of the arrests and interrogations of many terrorists.
No I’ve been told by health officials that E-Coli can’t be washed off. You gotta throw the stuff out.
And by the way, I consider infomercials, spam and telemarketers a form of torture. Can I file a law suit against that? Have my constitutional rights been slammed? And if we “tortured” terrorists suspects with a constant flow of infomericals, spam and telemarketing calls, could they file a law suit against us for that?
How could Christians torture? Well wasn’t that what the inquisition was all about? We are not the first “Christian Nation” that has used torture techniques.
As far as infomercials go, I have bought a rotisserie from Ron-co off of the TV. Just set it and forget it. It is the best thing in my kitchen. Chicken, Beef, Lamb, Pork, Veggies all taste better in the Rotisserie. I have heard that his food dehydrator was wonderful as well, what about dehydrated avocados?
I agree with the article on torture completely. My problem is that I’m ok with the admittedly hypothetical situation of, “We know this individual knows where a nuclear bomb is about to go off but he won’t talk unless we ________ to him. If we don’t ________ to him soon, millions of people will die.” I’m all for the millions of people living at the expense of the dignity or even perhaps the life of the “bad guy.” I just don’t like what that says about me in the least.
PreacherMan,
I just woke up. Thanks for the condescending words. If only the countless lawyers around the world could read the GC articles with such clarity. Apparently there’s no room for dialogue…unless you buy what McCain and Powell are selling. I’m not inclined to believe any of them. None are exempt from the pulls of DC.
I appreciate the article. I’m in agreement for the most part. But there is (as always) legitimacy to both sides of the argument.
I would also dare to say that any civilized person is “anti-torture,” per se, much like any civilized person is “anti-war” (nobody wants war, but…). Can there be “just torture?” Or is the connotation assigned to the word “torture” simply too strong?
In my estimation, dialogue is the point.
Terry A, you can request no calls from Harding, and that will be honored.
Were the rules that came out of the Geneva Convention written for dealing with terrorist? My understanding is that they were not.
I don’t think any Christian supports torture if by “torture” you mean treating a prisoner in an inhumane way. But some people consider ANY behavior modification techniques as torture. A very close friend just had his brother sent to prison for 4 years……is that torture? Some would have you believe it is. We need to distinguish attaching battery cables to someone’s testicles from playing rock music loudly….and not call them the same thing. Not all “torture” is torture.
DU
I was told that hanging a smoked ham in the cabin of an airplane would be considered torture. I was also told that reading out loud and over and over the New Testament would be on that list. Guess we have to know what is meant by the President until we judge him. When the media uses anything as a catch word, I am leary.
We think that if we torture than they will talk and and give us all this information. In the name of Mohammad and Islam no matter how much we torture they aren’t going to talk. They’ve got 13 virgins in the after life waiting for them. Allah is going to bless them in their minds theology. So why should we American’s lower our standards? Why?
America has always stood up for human rights. Fair trials. Innocent until proven guilty. Bush is wanting to change the rules. Change who we are as a country as far as human rights and how we fight wars. Whe we allow the terrorists to change who we are then they have won. We need to be the example to the world and say no matter what the terrorists do to us we are not going to lower our standards. We are not going to do what they do. We are going to still be the nation that stands on the hill and gives the light of hope to the world on what democracy is like, that it is different and better than what they have. But, when we change. When we allow the things that they do to lower our human rights standards and the treatment of war criminals. Then we are not better off than they.
Torture. We shouldn’t even as American’s be thinking along those lines.
Were it so simple that the “countless lawyers” could read the Geneva Convention with such clarity. Kind of like all the countless Christians who read the bible with such clarity. Good thing everyone is in such harmonious agreement on interpreting that document.
When I used to teach infantry soldiers about Jesus, I always had to emphasize respecting human dignity–the source of which springs from being made in God’s image whether we’re an American Christian or a Saudie Muslim. There was a constant tension between those who wanted to dehumanize the enemy and those who were able to see the enemy as a real human with families and all the rest. We baptized Stephen Green, who’s accused of raping and killing a child and her family. Obviously the message of the gospel is having to compete with the message of the powers and principalities, powers which breed extreme patriotism, extreme nationalism, all which allows arbitrary lines on a map to define whose life counts and whose doesn’t.
Ben
charlie s.-exactly.
PreacherMan: “We think that if we torture than they will talk and and give us all this information. In the name of Mohammad and Islam no matter how much we torture they aren’t going to talk. They’ve got 13 virgins in the after life waiting for them. Allah is going to bless them in their minds theology. So why should we American’s lower our standards? Why?”
These broad generalizations with regards to others’ ideology doesn’t aid in the evolution of further understanding. Do all Muslims adopt this philosophy? Christians should know better than that. We’re all the same, right? Even when it comes to heaven and hell. No, we’re not. So this perceived Muslim ideology cannot be used as the trump card to end the conversation.
Furthermore, using biblical language to describe Amerca’s position to world is dangerous, at best.
Furthermore, the whole “If _____, the terrorists win” thing is overused. Who’s actually keeping the score? Is it a game?
Something tells me that Bush and the govt.’s rhetoric about “torture” doesn’t mean hanging hams in planes and reading the NT over and over.
We are kidding ourselves to think that those seeking this power to “torture” are talking about anything less than physically and mentally abusing prisoners in order to get information from them. This is the issue at hand. No matter what anyone else tries to say.
We have to stop trying to “clean up” stuff like this and get real about the way of Christ.
it is so sad that we can not get facts from the news media, but “they” can certainly scare alot of misinformed people into hurting so many people in the public “they serve” . Remember kindergarten,wash your hands after using the bathroom, before eating and duh, before cooking,(I don’t even need to tell you how many times I’ve been in a restaurant bathroom and watched four or five people walk out without washing their hands, or at church..ick! )
As my daughter says stay on track mom, E coli isn’t in the spinach, it is on the spinach and you can wash it off and you can cook it. Remember the hamburger e coli scare, just cook the meat to 115 degrees and you will be safe, don’t throw it all way! When I was growing up, if we brought fruit and vegies home we washed them, well. We lived oversea and the farming tech…well you get it, we need to take some responsiblity, washed spinach in bags has been great but if I need to go back to washing the leaves myself I will, I just don’t get telling everyone to throw food away and stores then throwing what they have on hand away… spinach is such a great source of iron for girls(and guys) …oh well, Oh and Mike I can believe this is the topic that got me to write in your blog,I have been so blessed by reading , thank you
Chris, we are back to square one……..what do you perceive to be “physically and mental” abuse?
Does the way of Christ include doing what you can to protect innocent people who have gone to work in the Twin Towers?
Chrisitanity is SO messy because there are no black & white issues – everything is a shade of grey & then it becomes WHICH shade is the “right” one? Thank you Jesus for pouring out your RED blood to wash away our greys!
“Suppose you are the president of the United States. You have hard intelligence that a dirty bomb is set to explode somewhere in Chicago within the next 12 hours. The Department of Defense is holding an enemy combatant connected with the terrorist group that placed the bomb. You have every reason to believe he knows the location of the bomb, but he refuses to talk.
“‘Mr. President,’ the secretary of defense says to you, ‘with your approval, we can make this man talk, thereby saving hundreds, maybe thousands, of American lives. But the interrogation won’t be pretty, and the prisoner may never recover. Shall we do whatever’s necessary?’ ” Rob Elder
http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/ethicalperspectives/torture-ethics.html
What if one of these lives to save was a family member?
Amen, Beaner!
Above commentor
David -
I don’t know that I can spell out physical or mental abuse here in a way that would satisfy all possible meanings of those words. I think that if you and were to watch a video of someone being hit, electrocuted, kicked, spit on, slapped, yelled at, threatened, having their families threatened, being left in a pitch black cell for days at a time, and being served food their religion forbids them to eat that we might say that all of that is not right. This is the kind of torture that is being talked about here.
As far as your hypothetical situation:
I harbor no belief that these issues are easy or clean. I would only reply to the above hypothetical with this:
I can’t believe that Jesus would physically or mentally harm anyone to gain information from them. That is not the Jesus I see in the scriptures and especially not at the cross.
I guess I am in the minority here, but I do not see anything wrong to do whatever is necessary to get information from a terrorist. That information literally could save thousands of lives. We were attacked and will continue to be if we do not do what is necessary to prevent it from happening.
I would define torture as treatment that is universally significantly unpleasant, physical or mental. Defining it by personal preference (such as taste in music) is silly. Beating, flaying, water dripping on your head incessantly, eyes taped open under bright lights, etc. are pretty much guaranteed to affect anyone. Making a situation simply uncomfortable is not torture, just punishment, which is acceptable in my opinion. Repurcussions for bad actions are not supposed to be absent of discomfort; otherwise what’s the point?
Torturing to save lives kind of falls under “an eye for an eye” doesn’t it? Claiming that some sort of balance between the means and the end makes it righteous. Christ vetoed that mindset, and never gave a ratio that justifies reverting to it momentarily. Christians are responsible for our own actions, period. No justification allowed.
How far do you carry “But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also?”
How far are we to carry that whole speech there in Matthew 5:40 – 48??
It seems to me that our current President talks alot about his faith and the faith of the nation and yet there is a gap when it comes to what he says he believes and this torture issue.
Ben and Chris,
Excellent thoughts.
Amen!
NashvilleMan,
I don’t think it is a game. We are at war.
Even Bush says we will “win” if.
Does he think its a game?
We are talking about all muslims here it is reference to “terrorists” who are radical fundementalists mulsims who believe this about the afterlife. In talking about fundamentalists Muslims which these terrorists are you can use their ideology about the afterlife in understanding that this torture won’t work. Even Bush mentioned that Osama Ben Laden said it was better to die than to live.
You want to “win” in a war. Someone’s got to “win”.
If we claim to be Christian nation. The president in speeches uses “God” then we should be what we claim. We should be the light on a hill shinning forth freedom to the world. Letting the world know that democry is different than dictatorship or communism. America is a better nation. A nation that respects human rights.
When we torture it lowers our standards. We are just as bad as the terrorist who straps on a bomb or fly’s a plane into a building.
As American’s we must hold on to what we have been for many years an advocate for human rights.
If we change the Geneva Convention article 3 and “specify” what torture is…It leave it open for torture to be done. We say you can’t shock somone with jumper cables and leave out punching unrepeatedly…It leaves it open for that…and so and so on.
Talking what is torture and what is not torture in a nation that is to be a refuge to those who have been oppressed is sad and frieghtening.
Thanks for the perspective, David. For moral reasons, I’m personally not a fan of torture practicies in interrogation, but to write them off completely is also arguably immoral. Sometimes Christian behavior requires us to rely on a situation-ethic type of philosophy, determining the most moral action on the basis of what the particular situation calls for.
Chris Field = “I can’t believe that Jesus would physically or mentally harm anyone to gain information from them. That is not the Jesus I see in the scriptures and especially not at the cross.”
How do we line your statement up with Romans 13
“The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.”
Does the government’s treament of terrorists fall under the teaching of this scripture?
Why are terrorists such a separate category of criminals? How are other crimes against people of any number less deserving of the maximum punishment allowed? What makes us so sure that these people are the only ones who the government is allowed to treat worse than everyone else who has harmed or tried to harm someone? Because of the number of people they intended to harm? Because those in the media and authority have been driving that into our heads? Because they are basing their actions on faith much of the time, which makes them harder to deal with? Ridiculous. They are doing wrong. That’s all. Punish accordingly. Try and prevent problems in the future. Go after the leader, but don’t drop every moral restraint and legal guideline that applies in every other situation.
Yes, the government is “an agent of wrath to bring punishment”, but punishment and torture are two different things.
Preacherman, you keep bringing up the Geneva Convention without acknowleging it wasn’t written as a guide for treating those acting as TERRORIST.
DU
I don’t think Romans 13 can be used as justification for decisions by our govt. that are immoral or wrong. Don’t forget that it is the US govt. that advocated slavery and segregation until less than 100 years ago and it is this same govt. that didn’t allow woman to vote about 75 years ago. So was the govt. right in those situations? Obviously not.
I think the use of Romans 13 is out of context here and really doesn’t play into this discussion. Bottom line: Would Jesus torture anyone?
Would Jesus go Deer Hunting? Would Jesus be a Stock Broker? Would Jesus go see a Disney movie? Would Jesus go a Christian Concert? Would Jesus do this or that?
The WWJD is simply a ruse to make you feel better. It cannot, with any sort of intelligence, be used in all situations.
Chris Field- “I can’t believe that Jesus would physically or mentally harm anyone to gain information from them. That is not the Jesus I see in the scriptures and especially not at the cross.”
Agreed. But I don’t see a politically active, gov’t watch-dog Jesus either. And the Jesus you see in the scriptures may not be the same Jesus I see in the scriptures. I guess that’s the point.
I agree that torture is wrong (who doesn’t?!). But to be so difinitive about a position on an issue, allowing zero compromise or room for grey, seems to be short-sighted. Isn’t that what we all rail against on Mike’s blog?
One can be short sighted on either side of the aisle (Progressive or Conservative). It’s the same ill, just carried by a person of a different color.
It does serve as a good measure of how we treat others. Various activity questions may not apply, but we should judge our view of and actions toward other people in comparison with Christ.
What would Jesus do?
“Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?” Matthew 9:4
We can pick and choose scripture to make our argument seem the better choice, I just pray that I can live by God’s standards not my own, let me sow the seeds of peace, through the Prince of Peace, I just pray our country will set higher standards… we know He hates what evil people do, but He loves those who do right. I just ache for our country to do what is right. I’m an old Air Force “Brat”, my Dad’s example of service is awesome, I’ve seen him deeply hurt over our governments choice’s on many levels, yet the seeds He planted in me to be a warrior for our Lord, well, I for one don’t want our country involved in torture, it is always wrong.
Tim: I think that is why the book, “What Would Jesus Do Today?” was written. I can’t remember the authors.
Regarding the several people here who are making a case that torture in some instances is permissable (or even preferable if it saves innocent lives), or that being forced to endure blaring music (or whatever else) isn’t torture, or that this is a new kind of war and it demands new kinds of behavior (so the Geneva Conventions, or US law, or common human decency no longer apply), here’s what I’d say:
1) It never ceases to surprise me how quickly and perniciously fear works. If you scare people enough, you can get them to do anything. This is what happened in 1930s Germany to a large extent. And it’s the reason that the terror alert level has risen every time there’s been an election for the past 5 years–the reason those in power keep telling us that a vote for the “wrong person” could result in dire consequences. “You don’t want to embolden our enemies, do you?” Forgive me for mentioning it, but I thought one of the reasons Jesus came was to put an end to fear (remember that whole “perfect love casts out fear” thing?). Our chief purpose is to serve God and to serve others and trust to God to make it right. And in our better moments, this principle has also guided our country. Roosevelt wasn’t just blowing smoke when he told us the only thing we had to fear was fear itself… Fear is the destroyer; it incapacitates all of what Shakespeare called “our better angels.”
2) I’m profoundly troubled by the “us versus them” language I’m hearing here. I know that the whole purpose of people like Rush and O’Reilly and Coulter (and to be frank, even that fellow who claimed to be “a uniter, not a divider”) is to divide people–rich and poor, American and alien, red-stater and blue-stater, saint and sinner. So from what I’m seeing here and hearing across the country, mission accomplished. In politics, divisions are useful–and they can be a great motivator for action. It’s much easier to stir people up about an outside threat than it is to get them to work on their own problems and deficiencies. But again, Jesus seems to undermine this whole approach–from telling us to get busy about the specks in our own eyes first to reminding us that the person who’s really our neighbor might just be that person we consider to be subhuman. Jesus came to tear down the barriers that keep us from realizing our interconnectedness–remember that whole “there is no Jew nor gentile, slave nor free, male and female” thing? That’s all a product of the fall, right? So do we Christians really figure that the way to put an end to all this is merely to make the divisions bigger and more noticeable–to apply one standard to our enemies and another to our friends? Is working against the principles of Christ really a good idea? Now that we’ve tortured and bombed and invaded, is Iraq, for example, really a safer place? And has it all resulted in our increased safety? It seems to me that the thing that really “emboldens our enemy” is when we give them just cause to fight against us, to see us as unjust, to claim that we’re hypocrites. I’m thinking Jesus said something about loving our enemies and turning the other cheek (or was he just speaking about little stuff there?). Against such things, there is no law… So are we worried about the Jihadists like God is–yearning for their salvation, wanting them to join and enjoy the fellowship of his body, extending to them the gospel–or are we worried about them the way the “other side” is, wanting to devour them and destroy them? Anne Lamott says “You can safely assume that you’ve created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.” That should be food for thought here…
3) One final thought: I’ve heard that the last couple of elections have been all about “moral values,” that a “new spiritual awakening” is happening in this country, and that our government is increasingly holding to “Christian truths.” I guess I get a bit confused, then, that all of this stuff that our leaders trumpet seems contingent on the situation… “I’ll love them if they love me,” or “I’ll play by the rules unless the rules won’t get me what I need or want,” or “I can violate that principle because the ends justify the means.” Forgive me. It’s no doubt a product of my generation that my Sunday School teachers spent a lot of time condemning “situation ethics.” But I can’t seem to remember the gospel saying anything like any of that.
You want a good definition of torture? It’s the thing that does not “do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” And I guess I’m wondering what a Christian’s response should be to THAT…
Any of you guys who’ve gone on and on about how unfair it is to take this tool away from the president & his interrogators or how naive it is to treat the “detainees” humanely want to take a stab?
It would be nice if some of you could actually post a comment without your hatred for everything Republican/Bush/Conservative showing but, then again, I am sure you wear that sign proudly and it’s hard to put it down.
I understand the terrorists get to pray 5 times a day, get Subway and McDonald’s sandwitches, get to exercise 2 hours a day, etc. Some torture, huh? Oh, excuse me, the word is “detainees”
These are the same people who cut heads off.