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	<title>Comments on: Putt-Putt Christians</title>
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	<description>Sniffing out the work of God in the world...</description>
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		<title>By: imparare</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians/comment-page-1#comment-61355</link>
		<dc:creator>imparare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Apr 2007 06:07:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Interesting comments.. :D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting comments.. <img src='http://preachermike.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Carl Trimble</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians/comment-page-1#comment-14795</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Trimble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Sep 2006 16:15:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians#comment-14795</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t recall us ever being called in the scripture to become Christians. When Jesus sent out his disciples, they were instructed to go and make disciples; not Christians. Disciples make disciples. By Biblical standards, at least.

My understanding of these instructions is there is to be a never ending process of discipling. Instead, we cloister ourselves amongst our fellow Christians and never reach out to the lost.

When we in the c of C sometimes in the late 1950/s or 1960&#039;s began accepting, if only reluctantly, other believers as fellow Christians, we failed to realize there are countless others out there who do not know Jesus as their savior. Proselytizing Baptists and Methodists, etc., was never, in my opinion, a discipling process. We, concurrently never developed a mindset or reaching out to the lost. We also quit proselytizing. Consequently, the c of C has become a dying institution.  

In the 1950&#039;s we were considered the fastest growing religious body in the nation.We have since become a not so slowly dying group of &quot;Christians&quot; who have retreated into a ghetto of people who only look inward rather than out to the lost. We spend endless hours in classes; studying the scripture with little to no discourse on how to spread the Good News to a largely dying world of lost souls.

Ours will be the shame come judgement day!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t recall us ever being called in the scripture to become Christians. When Jesus sent out his disciples, they were instructed to go and make disciples; not Christians. Disciples make disciples. By Biblical standards, at least.</p>
<p>My understanding of these instructions is there is to be a never ending process of discipling. Instead, we cloister ourselves amongst our fellow Christians and never reach out to the lost.</p>
<p>When we in the c of C sometimes in the late 1950/s or 1960&#8242;s began accepting, if only reluctantly, other believers as fellow Christians, we failed to realize there are countless others out there who do not know Jesus as their savior. Proselytizing Baptists and Methodists, etc., was never, in my opinion, a discipling process. We, concurrently never developed a mindset or reaching out to the lost. We also quit proselytizing. Consequently, the c of C has become a dying institution.  </p>
<p>In the 1950&#8242;s we were considered the fastest growing religious body in the nation.We have since become a not so slowly dying group of &#8220;Christians&#8221; who have retreated into a ghetto of people who only look inward rather than out to the lost. We spend endless hours in classes; studying the scripture with little to no discourse on how to spread the Good News to a largely dying world of lost souls.</p>
<p>Ours will be the shame come judgement day!</p>
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		<title>By: Royce Ogle</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians/comment-page-1#comment-14758</link>
		<dc:creator>Royce Ogle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Sep 2006 02:09:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians#comment-14758</guid>
		<description>The stark truth is that we have not fulfilled the great commission until we have discipled them have we? Remember the phrase in Matthew?; &quot;..teaching  them to observe to observe all things that I have commanded you.&quot;

Mike, you are exactly right. The very few groups that do disciple would stick out like a sore thumb among the rest of us.

Thanks for the thought provoking post.

Grace and Peace,
Royce Ogle</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The stark truth is that we have not fulfilled the great commission until we have discipled them have we? Remember the phrase in Matthew?; &#8220;..teaching  them to observe to observe all things that I have commanded you.&#8221;</p>
<p>Mike, you are exactly right. The very few groups that do disciple would stick out like a sore thumb among the rest of us.</p>
<p>Thanks for the thought provoking post.</p>
<p>Grace and Peace,<br />
Royce Ogle</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians/comment-page-1#comment-14595</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Sep 2006 03:02:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians#comment-14595</guid>
		<description>Just out of curiosity I did what Chris suggested. I found it very interesting. My conclusion was twofold. First, I haven&#039;t read enough of Willard to form my own opinion. Second, there seems for some reason to be a growing reaction against the &quot;Emergent Church Movement.&quot; That could mean a thousand different things, but at least among some in evangelical circles red flags have been raised. Chris, I think several people have made a very good suggestion, and that is to make sure you make up your mind about the belief system of a person based on their own words and not what others write about them. That just makes sense. I noticed that several people who wrote against Willard used some very strong language and didn&#039;t seem to have much to back it up with. Others seemed to be more reasonable in their criticism and at least made me stop and think. I could be wrong, but I sense that there is a battle brewing among evangelicals over the &quot;Emergent Church Movement.&quot; At this point one difficulty is trying to give clear definitions on the subject. I would be very interested to hear Mike explain what he sees are the reasons that there is such strong reaction against Willard and especially McClaren among some Evangelicals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just out of curiosity I did what Chris suggested. I found it very interesting. My conclusion was twofold. First, I haven&#8217;t read enough of Willard to form my own opinion. Second, there seems for some reason to be a growing reaction against the &#8220;Emergent Church Movement.&#8221; That could mean a thousand different things, but at least among some in evangelical circles red flags have been raised. Chris, I think several people have made a very good suggestion, and that is to make sure you make up your mind about the belief system of a person based on their own words and not what others write about them. That just makes sense. I noticed that several people who wrote against Willard used some very strong language and didn&#8217;t seem to have much to back it up with. Others seemed to be more reasonable in their criticism and at least made me stop and think. I could be wrong, but I sense that there is a battle brewing among evangelicals over the &#8220;Emergent Church Movement.&#8221; At this point one difficulty is trying to give clear definitions on the subject. I would be very interested to hear Mike explain what he sees are the reasons that there is such strong reaction against Willard and especially McClaren among some Evangelicals.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Reinhardt</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians/comment-page-1#comment-14576</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Reinhardt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 18:28:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians#comment-14576</guid>
		<description>We will have this problem as long as our churches&#039; main focus is to get as many people as possible to sit in our pews (or folding chairs).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We will have this problem as long as our churches&#8217; main focus is to get as many people as possible to sit in our pews (or folding chairs).</p>
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		<title>By: Ike</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians/comment-page-1#comment-14575</link>
		<dc:creator>Ike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 17:25:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians#comment-14575</guid>
		<description>Chris,
Willard has published his thoughts on Spiritual Formation in a book called The Spirit of the Disciplines. I read that book and did not find any major contradictions with Scripture in it.

Based on your synopsis of &quot;Spiritual Formation/Contemplative Spirituality&quot; and the &quot;Emergent Church Movement&quot; I would be hesitant to trust your reference material too heavily. I encourage you to pick up one of Willard&#039;s books and read straight from source if you haven&#039;t already.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris,<br />
Willard has published his thoughts on Spiritual Formation in a book called The Spirit of the Disciplines. I read that book and did not find any major contradictions with Scripture in it.</p>
<p>Based on your synopsis of &#8220;Spiritual Formation/Contemplative Spirituality&#8221; and the &#8220;Emergent Church Movement&#8221; I would be hesitant to trust your reference material too heavily. I encourage you to pick up one of Willard&#8217;s books and read straight from source if you haven&#8217;t already.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians/comment-page-1#comment-14574</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 17:12:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians#comment-14574</guid>
		<description>From what I have read, Dallas Willard is a key player in the Spiritual Formation Movement which is another name for Contemplative Spirituality.It is a combination of Eastern Mysticism, psychology, New Age Movement, liberation theology, Roman Catholism and Protestantism all rolled into one.

He is also a key player in the Emergent Church Movement which is getting more crazy by the day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From what I have read, Dallas Willard is a key player in the Spiritual Formation Movement which is another name for Contemplative Spirituality.It is a combination of Eastern Mysticism, psychology, New Age Movement, liberation theology, Roman Catholism and Protestantism all rolled into one.</p>
<p>He is also a key player in the Emergent Church Movement which is getting more crazy by the day.</p>
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		<title>By: annie</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians/comment-page-1#comment-14573</link>
		<dc:creator>annie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 17:02:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians#comment-14573</guid>
		<description>Chris,  Except for the Bible, there&#039;s not a book out there that I would TOTALLY agree with all of  the writer&#039;s thoughts either.  But, God created Dallas Willard, &amp; gave him a bright mind, &amp; I believe Willard is using his God-given talent to help us think outside the box---and we know de-fi-ni-tive-ly that God is not in a box AT ALL.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris,  Except for the Bible, there&#8217;s not a book out there that I would TOTALLY agree with all of  the writer&#8217;s thoughts either.  But, God created Dallas Willard, &amp; gave him a bright mind, &amp; I believe Willard is using his God-given talent to help us think outside the box&#8212;and we know de-fi-ni-tive-ly that God is not in a box AT ALL.</p>
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		<title>By: Ike</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians/comment-page-1#comment-14572</link>
		<dc:creator>Ike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 15:27:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians#comment-14572</guid>
		<description>Chris,
I&#039;m curious what you have specfically read that would lead you to make that statement. I don&#039;t agree with everything Willard writes, but I find most all of what I have read of his to be consonant with Scripture. I submit to you that if one wants to explore Willard&#039;s belief system, his books are a much better source than Google.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris,<br />
I&#8217;m curious what you have specfically read that would lead you to make that statement. I don&#8217;t agree with everything Willard writes, but I find most all of what I have read of his to be consonant with Scripture. I submit to you that if one wants to explore Willard&#8217;s belief system, his books are a much better source than Google.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians/comment-page-1#comment-14571</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 14:55:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians#comment-14571</guid>
		<description>Before anyone takes Dallas Willard seriously, I would urge you to check his belief system out. You can just google his name. A lot of his teachings are not according to scripture to say the least.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Before anyone takes Dallas Willard seriously, I would urge you to check his belief system out. You can just google his name. A lot of his teachings are not according to scripture to say the least.</p>
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		<title>By: Ike</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians/comment-page-1#comment-14569</link>
		<dc:creator>Ike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 01:48:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians#comment-14569</guid>
		<description>My wife Kaelea and I started asking ourselves the question &quot;In light of good news what do we *want* to for God?&quot; We&#039;ve answered the question in lots of different ways.

One answer was &quot;Be generous givers.&quot; We really couldn&#039;t be that in our financial situation at the time, so we sold our house and moved our family into an apartment. Now with almost no effort on our part we are generous givers.

Taking up less space is hardly something to boast about. What God has done for us in Christ, now *that* is something I can boast about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My wife Kaelea and I started asking ourselves the question &#8220;In light of good news what do we *want* to for God?&#8221; We&#8217;ve answered the question in lots of different ways.</p>
<p>One answer was &#8220;Be generous givers.&#8221; We really couldn&#8217;t be that in our financial situation at the time, so we sold our house and moved our family into an apartment. Now with almost no effort on our part we are generous givers.</p>
<p>Taking up less space is hardly something to boast about. What God has done for us in Christ, now *that* is something I can boast about.</p>
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		<title>By: Lynn Cook</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians/comment-page-1#comment-14568</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynn Cook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 01:48:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians#comment-14568</guid>
		<description>Great article.  I read it recently and I am ready for the book.  I appreciate the discussion about the ICOC.  I have been challenged lately by some great discussions with members and former members of the local ICOC congreation that have recently become of part of the my church family.  They have helped me look at the congregation where I serve in a new way when it comes to what we teach those that are attracted to the church or Christ. Finding a way to talk to people about Christ and becoming a disciple without legalism is such a challenge once you begin trying.  The journey metaphor seems so right.   I really enjoy talking to people about the journey of being a disciple motivated by the love of Christ.  It is compelling!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article.  I read it recently and I am ready for the book.  I appreciate the discussion about the ICOC.  I have been challenged lately by some great discussions with members and former members of the local ICOC congreation that have recently become of part of the my church family.  They have helped me look at the congregation where I serve in a new way when it comes to what we teach those that are attracted to the church or Christ. Finding a way to talk to people about Christ and becoming a disciple without legalism is such a challenge once you begin trying.  The journey metaphor seems so right.   I really enjoy talking to people about the journey of being a disciple motivated by the love of Christ.  It is compelling!</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Jr.</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians/comment-page-1#comment-14567</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Jr.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 01:46:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians#comment-14567</guid>
		<description>&quot;Hear and do.&quot;

That&#039;s how a good friend, mentor, and theologian Kent Smith boils down the responsibility of disciples in the kingdom of God.

I also appreciate the point that Matt R made about our responsibility to work at becoming more like Jesus.  We know what God wants us to by regularly listening to Him, and many spiritual disciplines serve as resources through which we can hear God more clearly.  

A great little book by a couple CofC authors that aims to illuminate many of the spiritual disciplines that help us hear God more clearly (so we can become more like Jesus) is &lt;i&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://search.barnesandnoble.com/bookSearch/isbnInquiry.asp?r=1&amp;isbn=0974844128&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Living God&#039;s Love: An Invitation to Christian Spirituality&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/i&gt; by Earl Lavender and Gary Holloway.

I got to take a summer course with Earl (he is a prof at Lipscomb), and that class was one of the most formative experiences of my life. It was like a curtain was pulled back and I finally &quot;got it.&quot;  I don&#039;t &quot;get all of it&quot; of course, but I feel like I understand &quot;the point&quot; of all this Christianity stuff, a point that Willard makes wonderfully: &lt;i&gt;following Jesus. Becoming more like him.  Modeling his Way in the world.  Listening to him.  Doing what he tells us to do.&lt;/i&gt;

There is not a more pertinent message in the world than the good news that a better Way exists, and that we were created for a purpose -- to reflect the glory of God.  Thanks for reminding of this message today, Mike.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Hear and do.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s how a good friend, mentor, and theologian Kent Smith boils down the responsibility of disciples in the kingdom of God.</p>
<p>I also appreciate the point that Matt R made about our responsibility to work at becoming more like Jesus.  We know what God wants us to by regularly listening to Him, and many spiritual disciplines serve as resources through which we can hear God more clearly.  </p>
<p>A great little book by a couple CofC authors that aims to illuminate many of the spiritual disciplines that help us hear God more clearly (so we can become more like Jesus) is <i><a href="http://search.barnesandnoble.com/bookSearch/isbnInquiry.asp?r=1&amp;isbn=0974844128" rel="nofollow">Living God&#8217;s Love: An Invitation to Christian Spirituality</a></i> by Earl Lavender and Gary Holloway.</p>
<p>I got to take a summer course with Earl (he is a prof at Lipscomb), and that class was one of the most formative experiences of my life. It was like a curtain was pulled back and I finally &#8220;got it.&#8221;  I don&#8217;t &#8220;get all of it&#8221; of course, but I feel like I understand &#8220;the point&#8221; of all this Christianity stuff, a point that Willard makes wonderfully: <i>following Jesus. Becoming more like him.  Modeling his Way in the world.  Listening to him.  Doing what he tells us to do.</i></p>
<p>There is not a more pertinent message in the world than the good news that a better Way exists, and that we were created for a purpose &#8212; to reflect the glory of God.  Thanks for reminding of this message today, Mike.</p>
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		<title>By: KentF</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians/comment-page-1#comment-14566</link>
		<dc:creator>KentF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 00:18:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians#comment-14566</guid>
		<description>Challenging indeed - thanks Mike.  I&#039;m honestly not sure how the church got so off-track, but it certainly did.  Probably somewhere about the time we decided a perfect attendance mark equated to discipleship.  How many elders, let alone &quot;regulars&quot; read, think critically or meditate on their personal walk with Jesus?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Challenging indeed &#8211; thanks Mike.  I&#8217;m honestly not sure how the church got so off-track, but it certainly did.  Probably somewhere about the time we decided a perfect attendance mark equated to discipleship.  How many elders, let alone &#8220;regulars&#8221; read, think critically or meditate on their personal walk with Jesus?</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians/comment-page-1#comment-14565</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Sep 2006 22:12:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/2006/09/08/putt-putt-christians#comment-14565</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t miss Plantinga&#039;s statement from the middle of the last paragraph: &quot;God has put joy inside sports, music-making, and cross-cultural conversation, but the only way to get joy out of them is to work at them. You’ve got to listen to your teacher, imitate him or her, and then practice a lot.&quot;

The solution isn&#039;t simply to intellectually endorse discipleship as a good idea, nor to develop a general intention about doing it. Believers need to find ways to regularly PRACTICE things that are important for our spiritual development AND the self discipline to stay after it. You aren&#039;t fully hearing Willard&#039;s message unless you hear that as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t miss Plantinga&#8217;s statement from the middle of the last paragraph: &#8220;God has put joy inside sports, music-making, and cross-cultural conversation, but the only way to get joy out of them is to work at them. You’ve got to listen to your teacher, imitate him or her, and then practice a lot.&#8221;</p>
<p>The solution isn&#8217;t simply to intellectually endorse discipleship as a good idea, nor to develop a general intention about doing it. Believers need to find ways to regularly PRACTICE things that are important for our spiritual development AND the self discipline to stay after it. You aren&#8217;t fully hearing Willard&#8217;s message unless you hear that as well.</p>
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