Training for Professionalism
This is from my 9/28/04 blog entry (slightly adapted):
I’m not blaming anyone for what I’m blogging about this morning. Really good people were doing the best they knew how to do. The fault is largely mine.
But I was trained to be a professional.
It was great training for a Constantinian world in which the church is the center of all life. But it doesn’t fit our current situation of living in a post-Christian, post-modern world.
One of my graduate school professors insisted that a preacher should spend one hour in study for every minute he preaches. That’s great advice — if the goal is to preach sermons. For much of my preaching life, I’ve preached two sermons a week. That would be 50 hours of study. While in Searcy, I preached three sermons a week. That would be 75 hours of study.
I was trained to do just that. With seven years of Greek and a couple years of Hebrew along with class after class of textual studies, I was prepared to do one thing: study. I had (for the most part) incredible profs. I don’t regret most of the classes.
But I was never taught other things: like how to be missional, how to help form a missional church, how to pray, how to disciple people in the way of Christ, etc.
Again, good people were teaching me what they knew. It wasn’t them–it was more a whole system that didn’t understand what we’re facing. We majored in information transfer. We hardly even minored in formation and transformation.
There was never any training and mentoring in how to connect with lost people, how to move Christians from consumer-demands to kingdom-service, how to start justice-based ministries, or how to plan worship that forms people and prepares to send them out in Jesus’ name.
It’s easier to train professionals. People who know how to caretake the organization. They know how to bring about slow change. How to do studies. How to organize. Basically, how to do all the things really good businesses do.
So churches have learned to rely on people who know very little about Christian mission and formation but know a LOT about professional matters.
I remember taking a class on evangelism. The whole class was, of course, a study of evangelism. We spent the whole semester getting ready to perform a skit from GO YE MEANS GO ME. And there was a class on “the work of a preacher” that was basically a study of the pastoral epistles–in other words, another textual class. My class on worship studied the issues of worship and worked toward the big project: of each group preparing a devotional for one class period.
I’m thinking we don’t need any more professionalism. (That isn’t to say, of course, that we want to give up serious study of scripture, including languages!) We need missionaries. Missionaries right here: people who can learn the language, teach the language, learn the culture, teach the culture, mentor, equip, train, reach out.
Here are some realities we’ll have to face:
1. Some don’t want to be missional. They want the organization to work smoothly. We need to love them as they struggle, helping them to mature beyond consumer complaints. Jesus didn’t leave the church so everyone could be comfortable and happy; he left it as an outpost of the in-breaking kingdom. It is not safe!
2. There will be conflict as this happens. But this conflict is best resolved by people staying focused on what the mission of Christ is.
3. The day of megachurches as the center of attention is probably coming to an end. Megachurches are great at offering services. But they haven’t historically been great at forming people into the image of Christ. I’m thrilled when I hear about students (of various majors) eager to go out and start a house church. This isn’t either/or. I’m committed to helping a large church. But I think the future will be smaller.
4. I hope our theological training stays rigorous: in languages, history, theology, etc. But along with all the information we must find a way to form lives. We need to keep raising up teachers who are actively involved in the mission of Christ. (And I’m discovering more and more of them!)
One final word of grace here: God has used all our stumbling efforts–including my own pitiful ones–to his glory. This doesn’t discount any of the sacrifices that others have made. But it’s just a chance to think ahead and dream.
Amen, Mike. From the perspective of someone living in an extremely post-Christian region of the U.S., you are exactly right. We need Christians going fearlessly into every crack and crevice of our society, announcing the kingdom with their lives and words (when necessary). I have talked to so many “trained professionals” who are rejecting their training (the professionalism part) to model the way of Christ in the world (as opposed to “in the office”).
I saw this article a while back about how droves of seminary trained men and women are turning away from the pulpit. Hmmm.
I’m not sure I agree the day of the mega-church is ending. The day of the building centered mega-church is ending, but many mega churches are holding multiple assemblies now once a week and placing emphasis on cell or home groups. In fact, some “mega-churches” now are creatng multiple campuses in larger towns.
In any event, I agree with the primary point. Larger churches that are building and assembly focused do often fail to really assist in life transformations.
Great words and topic Mike. I have no problem with mega-churches, as long as their also being mega-Jesus’ to their community. Some are, most aren’t. It is absolutely amazing how out of touch we were 25 years ago with the world. Mr. Barna reports we are still paying for that transgression up to and through 2006, but I certainly do hope things are changing.
I’ve stated this before – but our kids by and large don’t want to live in the ex-urbs – even though we put them there. Life should not be all clean and homogenous. Take a look at any cofC university’s summer intern program and see where those students want to go. Here’s a clue – pick an urban church and start counting there.
Just a reminder re: the Kingdom:
“Hi Mike:
I still am hoping you will reply to a few comments I made to your Memorial Day blog. I know you have been busy, but I sure would appreciate your feedback. Sorry, but I didn’t know any other way to communicatew with you than by using your latest blog entry.
All the best,
John
John – I have that in the back of my mind. To understand “kingdom” as fully come (possibly as the church) or as fully future is to miss a central message of scripture. So, I’m wanting to wait until I can develop this in more than my normal 5-minute flurry! Thanks.”
Mike,
What a blessing to be here to see these changes in God’s people. I believe the future will be smaller, too, and that small groups can be missional incubators of God’s hopes and plans for our towns, neighborhoods, and cities. As an example, we’ve watched a small group blossom from a hold-it-together mentality into an inner city force for those in need in OKC. Beginning with a prayer in a preacher’s office, that group now feeds the hungry, clothes those in need, helps them find social services, and is about to open a second building whose emphasis will be teens and children.
I wonder if some of the other bloggers on today would be willing to share stories of God working in missional ways in their churches and communities.
When teachers/professors at preaching schools or in graduate school encourage “study, study, study”, they overlook the daily events in people’s lives. My husband was told to spend at least 6 hours a day in his study…uninterrupted. Needless to say, this cut him off from people’s needs. When someone has unexpected surgery and they want people with them at the hospital, the preacher is usually the first person called in many congregations…especially smaller ones…and this is not the time to say, “I’m sorry; I’m preparing a sermon for Sunday.” There has to be study…there has to be interaction with people…there has to be balance. One of my husband’s most effective sermons was the Sunday after a severe ice storm…where we were concerned with just meeting the needs of those around us, making sure the elderly stayed warm and had food, moving trees that had fallen across driveways, going to the post office for those who could not make it (we did not have home delivery in that town). Hubby’s typewriter was electric; he could not type out a sermon outline, because we had no electricity for close to a week! Instead of pulling out an old sermon he simply read the book of James…and closed by saying that Christianity is meant to be practical…to meet needs…to bring people to the Christ.
Great stuff, Mike. I know what you mean about being trained as a professional — I went to the same institutions for ministry training that you did.
But some of my best learning came from men like Will Ed Warren, who was the first professor that I sensed who was in love with Jesus.
And then I think of Robert Qualls, the preaching minister at a church in Memphis — where I really started to learn ministry while going to Harding Grad. He taught me about the value of being broken, being consumed with Jesus, open to the Holy Spirit, and diving into the messiness of ministry with hurting people.
Though I am grateful to God for my “professional” training, I’m most grateful for how He has shaped me (and continues to shape me), even though it’s been painful at times, within the crucible of life outside the classroom.
Jim
Professionalism.
It pushes us toward planning rather than trusting… toward “control” rather than submission. It turns our Shepherds into a board of trustees and turns our ministers into salesmen. Ultimately, it draws us away from God and it breaks the body apart. In the professional realm, downsizing is acceptable, you move up by being seen doing the right things by the right people, success of the institution (as defined by upper level administrators) renders individual concerns unimportant.
Jesus told us that “the first shall be last…”
Jesus said “whatever you do for the least of these, you do for me…”
Jesus view of the true Kingdom makes NO professional sense… it makes divine sense because GRACE doesn’t make business sense. FORGIVENESS is bad business thinking. It isn’t professional to SUBMIT humbly to those of a lower standing in society at large.
If churches are splitting up, it’s because they follow rational, business procedures rather than following Christ. This drains the Spirit from us, hardens us toward out brothers and sisters who have “different” ideas, and fools us into believing that WE know best.
John – I don’t need the reminder. When I can get to it, I will. Thanks. You’re clearly eager, so here are a couple suggestions. First, though I haven’t read or listened to any of these sermons, someone said that John York, an excellent prof at Lipscomb and one of the preachers at the Woodmont Church, has done a tremendous series. You can find 40 messages here. Also, try Brian McLaren’s The Secret Message of Jesus : Uncovering the Truth that Could Change Everything
or any of the excellent books from The Gospel and Our Culture Network (www.gocn.org). Perhaps also Lee Camp’s Mere Discipleship: Radical Christianity in a Rebellious World
.
A little parable on professional governance procedures among Christians (please forgive the length Mike):
There once was a man—a Christian man. He had a dream of a place where boys and girls could come in the summer months to experience the beauty of God’s creation and to study the truth of God’s Word. He wanted to create a unified haven for learning and godliness in the mountains; a place where Christians could come together for encouragement, fellowship, and guidance. So he began his search and eventually found just the right spot—1200 acres of grass and spruce and aspen and mountain stream, and he set about to make it happen.
As with most things, it would take some capital. So he had a meeting of interested parties—church folks who had the same dream as he did, and had the money to get it rolling—and they devised a plan. There were two beautiful canyons, just perfect for cabin sites. So, the board was formed, bylaws were written, sites were plotted, and an idyllic Christian mountain community sprang to life in support of the new youth camp. Cabin sites in this exclusively Christian community were in such high demand that it wasn’t long before the camp was paid for. Over the years, they expanded the facility with new camper cabins and a new dining hall. Camper numbers continued to grow and each summer, mature Christian teachers, counselors and staff members came to work and to serve the campers. It seemed this man’s idea had become a virtual Heaven on earth for campers, for staff, for counselors, and for the cabin owners. Across the bridge and outside of their fences, the world spun its dark misunderstandings and its evil endeavors, while inside, you always knew that your neighbors, your teacher, your counselor or your director believed just the way you did… just the way God himself intended.
But there was a shadow.
Some members of the board had heard rumblings and had even witnessed, brothers and sisters who had strange ideas. These people seemed to be good… they seemed to be righteous… but when you actually nailed them down on certain subjects, something was wrong. “Some of them,” they said, “don’t even ALWAYS go to OUR Church…” which was the absolute rule for being a part of their community.
So they tightened up their rules and devised elaborate questionnaires. ANYONE who came to work with the boys or girls had to pass the test—had to prove that they not only went to “OUR CHURCH” but also that they believed exactly the same things that “we” do. Some teachers were not invited back, some counselors were dismissed, and some board members were even asked to leave. You see the problem was, it seemed, not everyone understands the Bible as WE do—even some who claimed to be part of OUR church. Perhaps these people had been misled, perhaps they just weren’t intelligent, or perhaps there was something more sinister at work. Perhaps they were false teachers. Sure they seemed to be loving, they seemed to be honest, they seemed to even know their Bibles in many ways… but that could just be the proof! You can tell them by their “sheeps’ clothing.”
The problem wasn’t just among the staff and counselors though. Some of the original cabin owners, ALWAYS members of OUR church, had not managed to raise children who stayed in OUR church. Some were even passing their cabins on to children or grandchildren who regularly attended OTHER churches! At one heated board meeting it was even discussed that a “pastor” from ANOTHER church was actually having Bible studies with people here, they marveled, “in our own camp!” And they couldn’t kick him out because he was a cabin owner.
As often happens, the battle went underground. Calls were made and backgrounds were checked and those with “questionable” allegiances were rooted out. Those with suspect divorces, those who visited denominations, those who seemed soft on women’s roles or who acted a bit too “emotional” during worship, those who left “open” questions concerning miracles or instrumental music and those who believed that worship might happen more than just on Sunday and Wednesday night or who said the word Grace just a bit too often were at least marginalized but usually encouraged to find another camp. Many of them left, feeling confused and sorrowful that a place that had meant so much to them was now rejecting them. Some even lost their faith over the whole matter.
But it seems the board just couldn’t stamp out the falsehood. They couldn’t make everyone comply. People kept coming to different conclusions on lots of issues. Then they realized that they couldn’t really agree with each other on what compliance on these issues should look like—or even which issues were most important. It appeared that even the board members read their Bibles differently, came to different insights, embraced differing conclusions on some things. Was that dream of a unified haven here on earth even possible?
The question here is NOT whether or not there IS absolute truth. Of course there is. Truth is truth whether I know it and acknowledge it or not. Relativism isn’t the issue here. But, what do brothers and sisters do when they have the same Bibles, believe in the same Christ, embrace the same moral choices, but have come to differing conclusions on things that seem important?
1) Do they disfellowship or excommunicate each other?
2) Do they quietly move to opposite ends of town and take the “you do church your way and I’ll do church my way” method?
3) Do they try to swallow their disagreements and continue meeting together with a hollow façade of unity?
4) Or… is there another way?
A little quote from Silas Shotwell:
“Colleges can’t adequately train preachers by themselves. One of the basic rules of creation is that things reproduce after their own kind. I believe that professors produce proffessors, preachers produce preachers.”
Mike, we were the grateful recipients of the mentoring you did with Vic Bliss when he was in grad school at ACU. Thanks for being ahead of the curve on this, and for challenging the rest of us to move into more authentic, holistic ministry.
Throughout my graduate studies in religion there were so many times when I didn’t want to hear one more word of teaching. What I wanted to hear was my professors praying. Really praying. I liked them, and liked to think they did it. But I didn’t have much direct evidence. Part of the problem was that I was a commuter (not recommended for seminary). But most of it, as you’ve pointed out Mike, was the model for what we thought we were doing.
Ever since I first read about that illegal seminary led by D. Bonhoeffer, where they studied, ate, prayed and sang together, I’ve always been envious. Christian camp + graduate studies! Yes, the times were hard and harsh and dangerous; and I’d probably jump back into the time machine if I ever made it there. But what joy they had.
When Jesus called 12 students, it was not merely to teach them. He wanted them to be with him. That’s training for ministry.
I would appreciate some assistance in the meaning of words; for example, post-modern, post-Christian, liberal, conservative. I am at a loss to understand what is meant. Thanks in advance.
Mike,
These words ring as true as they did 2 years ago…
I believe that our churches and schools should read this post and reform their idea about what ministers should be doing with their use of time during the day.
I think the days of logging how hours are spent working are over. I also think we need to look again at how preaching is used…that maybe it is time for a different kind of “sermon”…one of dialog and questions…one where we don’t spend 30 minutes preaching at people but asking people where they are at. That doesn’t take much preparation to do and we can still have study time, but when someone needs the minister, he/she can quickly come to aid the situation presented without fear of reprimand or fear of not finishing a sermon.
I LOVE to study! I suppose this is part of what drew me to ministry. But, as I STUDY more about Jesus, I see that He was about getting out there with the hurting people.
Last night, I was wondering who we could invite to our house next week for a meal. We are new to Omaha, NE and I thought of inviting someone from church. But then I thought, “What about my neighbors?”
I wish our universities taught more about being missional as a minister. I think the apostle Paul would be laughing at us sitting in our offices during the week. Or maybe he would write us a letter telling us how to love the lost better!
Mike,
I went to the same university you did and spent over twenty-five years living in that community. I even spent many years hearing you preach every Sunday. I was taught by professors, colleagues, family, and friends to be and how to be missional and that was backed up in the lives of those I witnessed at the university and in the church. I was taught and witnessed how to minister to others and how to disciple people in the ways of Christ. The love of Christ, forgiveness, humility, being filled with the Holy Spirit, and servanthood was mentored and taught to me. I was taught languages, cultures, and a great love for all peoples, and was equipped and encouraged to reach out. I was also taught to study. I believe churches split because of individual’s selfish desires. What we need is more unity and love for one another.
Our Christian colleges who have Bible as a required course for several semesters ought to offer a course, or minor, in house church. This would be a terrific course and could be very experiential.
Maybe class meets once a week and house church meets once per week. The class can involve some study of the house church movement globally, and then the house church “lab” could be an experiementation, maybe meeting at the prof’s house, in which different kinds of house church things can be done.
Or, maybe the prof has connections with existing house churches and the students join these house church for thei main “church service” for he semester. Yes, kind of contrived, but a good dive into something new.
This might be a flop, but on the other hand, loading up on text courses and accumulating knowledge isn’t really getting the job done either.
This would require a very open minded prof and university in order to pull off.
Great post Mike.
“Suitable persons must be trained in our schools and universities [for ministry]…but it would not be a bad thing if all students were required to bring from their universities testimonials concerning their piety as well as their diligence and skill. Unless he has somebody to lead him faithfully by the hand, a beginning student will hardly know what he needs and what he does not need in these matters.”
Taken from Spener’s “Pia Desideria” written in 1675.
I totally agree. The best class I had during my ministry study(Pepperdine), was a class on urban missions. I learned so much during this class. Our prof took us all over Albuquerque to churches (not Restoration Churches) that were truly reaching the un-churched and discipling them. We met so many people who had been transformed by the power of Christ! It was amazing, but I kept thinking, “What do these people (the missionaries) get, that I don’t?” “Are they more trusting?” “Do they have a better understanding of Christ and His mission?” “Are they more spiritual?” Despite the fact that they did not have theological degrees, these missionaries – Got It. They were willing to give up comfort to spread the Gospel, change lives, and even change neighborhoods. It was obvious that they were not about being professional, but about being the Kingdom of God. I would like to see more classes where students are taught how to make Christ’s mission their own. (How to Seek and Save the Lost 101, Required Texts:Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Acts). However, I don’t think this can be done within a classroom. It can only be done out in the field, by trial and error, prayer, and following Christ’s example.
“There is scarcely anything so dull and meaningless as Bible doctrine taught for its own sake. Truth divorced from life is not truth in its Biblical sense, but something else and something less. No man is better for knowing that God in the beginning created the heaven and the earth. The devil knows that, and so did Ahab and Judas Iscariot. No man is better for knowing that God so loved the world of men that He gave His only begotten Son to die for their redemption. In hell there are millions who know that. Theological truth is useless until it is obeyed. The purpose behind all doctrine is to secure moral action.” (A. W. Tozer, Of God and Men, 1960)
Right on preacher Mike. The verse that has shaped, formed, and challenged me lately has been John 1:14, “The Word became flesh and lived among us.” I like the Message from Peterson, “The Word became flesh and moved into the neighborhood.”
Using this text, I preached last week (my first sermon) on how Jesus is the “token crossing-guard.” Alright, I understand that every metaphor has strengths and weaknesses, but I like the image.
Much like a crossing-guard, the way of Christ isn’t to stand on the side of a street opposite from people while inviting them to come and join in the Christ-life. Likewise, imitating Jesus isn’t standing with the people while pointing them to the other side as if to stay, “Just go to church,” or, “Just read your Bible.” Instead, following in the footsteps of Jesus Christ is a commitment to journey with people through intersections and crossroads as faith collides with many different aspects of culture.
The heartbeat and lifeblood of incarnational theology is that we join in the mission of God which has come in Jesus, who demonstrated what it means to abandon places of security and to join one another on the journey of traveling in the direction of the neighbor. This seems to be God’s metaphor for ministry. So, let us join Christ as we stroll through life’s intersections and crossroads with people in this world.
Feel free to critique my image.
There has to be another way and it has to be more like Christ.
Mike,
thanks for these confessions/suggestions. I noticed you had “Working the Angles” by Eugene Peterson on your book list recently. I just finished that one and WOW, THAT WAS A KICK IN THE PANTS. I recommend this short book to anyone out there (paid or unpaid) who is serious about serving in God’s Kingdom. I am challenged to rethink my ideas about ministry completely. Blessings.
Russ
I hope the long-winded parable above didn’t seem tangential to the topic. I think that our ministers are being trained in professionalism because that makes good “business sense.” Good “business sense” is just another way to choose my own way, my own intellect, rather than to choose submission.
The irony is that most of the restoration churches that are driven by a business-minded, board-oriented eldership are also rather anti-academic and anti-intellectual. The “professional” trained ministers coming out of academia are really springing from an urge foreign to the restoration tradition.
So, too often, we have business-minded churches pulling one direction, and professional-trained ministers pulling another direction and each approach may be missing the real point– Christ. But this is where the battle-lines are being drawn… between the “professional ministers” and the “Board-room” elderships. These are stereotypes, of course, but they color our views so much that people are now quick to react negatively to ANY “Eldership” that seems a bit traditional or ANY “Minister” who seems to be a bit progressive.
Christ, Christ, Christ… it should all be about Christ.
It’s interesting if you size up the way our preachers and leaders are prepared today with how the first cenury church and even Jesus prepared leaders. Stephen spent his time learning at the feet of the apostles. They in turn learned at the feet of Jesus. Most of the preparation and teaching came in the context of a community of faith.
It seems that much of that context today has been stripped away or is tenuous at best. I wonder what would happen if we re-worked our model for perparing leaders to match Jesus and the first century church.I wonder what would change and what the effects would be.
I’ve already graduated, so this is obviously not an attempt to brown-nose Drs. Childers and Foster, but I seriously question any sort of ministerial training program or methodology that does not make even the most basic awareness of church history a requirement. I am often amazed at how poorly we know our own little denomination’s history, much less the story of the Christian church over 2,000 years.
Sorry, just my little rant against those who would make ministry training less academically rigorous…
Mike., thanks for this wonderful post.
I think elders in ever church should read it.
How many elders demand their minister’s to be in the office for 40 hours a week? When real ministry is outside of the building. How many churches put ministers into a box and don’t let them outreach and expect growth anyway?
Pray for elders everywhere that they may understand where real ministry takes place and growth occurs.
As far as Mega-Churches I don’t think they will come to an end anytime soon. Look at Lakewood in Houston. I do believe it is easy as I was a member of a mega church to be a floater. Not get involved. Be self-centered and look for what the church can do for me instead of what can I do for the church. I think it is important for those at Mega churches to preach and teach commitment and involvement. Just image what God could do with those churches if everyone in those churches got involved, reached out, and spread the message of Jesus.
Pray for ministers and church leaders in Mega Churches.
Pray for small group leaders and home churches.
I am blessed to minister to a small country church. Over the past several years it feels not like church in the formal structured sense but a Christain family. I do agree that many people are looking for a smaller church, a family, a spiritual family that will love them, support them and help them grow in the grace of Jesus Christ. I pray that every church of Christ will become a place where people can find healing, forgiveness, acceptance, a place where God grace is shown to everyone and that we will understnad that church is more than what we do on Sundays. We must understand that the function of the church not the form is going to change lives and bring people to Jesus.
Thanks again, Mike.
I trained as a teacher at one of the best public education schools in the US. I have to say, though, that I learned more from my mentoring teacher than I did in the 4 years of prep at University. Perhaps the issue for preachers is to have a mentor before you get a “real” job. I know several churches are beginning to look into that for campus and youth ministries. Probably one of the most helpful professors for my husband was Tremper Longman. As part of his class you had to meet with him and a small group of classmates for prayer and discussion, not about class. It would require a lot for some of the larger schools, but certainly it should be possible for graduate students and their profs. Also, it has been difficult for my husband to find a teaching position because his degree is not a Ph.D. Based on your article today though, it would seem that a D.Min. in Spiritual Formation would suit the graduates needs better. Just my prejudice I suppose, but I think studying under a great like Richard Foster as well as Longman and Silva makes for a very well rounded professor! For now he teaches those who are in the streets how to meet the spiritual needs of those around us.
I suppose I equate “professionalism” more with a minister’s approach to the “job” of ministry than with the rigor of his or her training. I agree with GKB that a full knowledge of the histories of the restoration and of Christianity are vital. But the focus of ministry is service to God and to others. The professional is concerned about filling his or her position more than with those in need. Sure, you can serve others in a “professional” way… but in our society, “professional” usually means “distanced.” You know, keeping a “professional” distance… rendering “professional” services (which usually means for pay and contingent upon pay).
Maybe this isn’t what Mike is addressing here, but I think study and training don’t necessarily lead to this negative “professionalism.” If the training and the study are focused on coming to know Christ better and coming to BE Christ better for others, then that study and training has at it’s core, the highest objective.
Mike, I love your words, but I wonder what sparked this re-post?
Professionalism in ministry makes sense to the business world. After all a professional minister is getting paid for his skills of teaching, organizing and preaching within the church. So its common sense that preachers would know their stuff and spend their time getting paid for studying and becoming the best in the business.
Only the church cant, and should never been run as a business. Its impossible, the goals and purposes are far far from what a business is designed for.
Does a minister need to know his stuff, duh. But what is the stuff that they need to know? And this is where, I think, the professionalism approach came in.
But I sometimes wonder if we are simply taking a different approach to professionalism. Since flooding our ministers with theological and scriptural knowledge leaves then inadequate to minster to the masses, we should flood them with a knowledge of mission studies, mental development, or even a couple counseling courses prepares them for what lies ahead of them in a changing world.
To be honest, I dont know…but I will say I love my classes, I love what I have learned in them. But I have learned more in my personal studies then I have in any class.
We still are of the world. When we are wanting answers to our tough theological questions or reading books that address the problems we see in the church, we will always be comforted by knowing someone’s credentials.
But in all, I dont have a clue what is needed. I just have to trust those who have gone before me and to trust in God.
Sorry to make a second comment on the same thread, but…
When I told my elders that I spend an hour in study for each minute in the pulpit, they voted to cut my hours.
Big Mike’s rhetorical question about “a different kind of sermon” rings truly with me. I’m not really sure that when Jesus sat down and started to teach on the hillside, he prefaced his remarks by saying, “the sermon starts here; I’ll let you know when I’m done.” The sermons of Acts 17, Acts 2, Acts 8 and elsewhere just aren’t that awfully long, and they seem to fit more squarely into a model-less model, a context that Willard seems to hint at with his renaming of the “discourse on the hill.” They were ad-hoc remarks that jump-started a dialogue, in other words, instead of standing on their own as one-way sermons. The one-way sermon model seems to lend itself to perpetuating and being perpetuated by the anthropocentrism, preachercentrism, “you da man” culture that pervades the contemporary church across all denominational strata.
The passage that lurks in the back of my mind here is I Corinthians 14, in which Paul makes it pretty plain that he wishes all of the church “members” or “body parts” would prophesy. Similarly to Moses (Numbers 11?), Paul was not interested, apparently, in being considered the ultimate prophetic authority within a group of Christians. He wanted that gift to be dispersed among all who aspired to it, had been gifted by the Holy Spirit “just as he wills” and had the humble temperament required to exercise it faithfully.
I surely would be interested in some ruminations on this concept, because it is slowly becoming an obsession with me.
qb
Mike wrote, “John – I don’t need the reminder. When I can get to it, I will. Thanks. ”
Whether intentional or not, your words are harsh.
I am a seeker, and I thought you were a teacher. You may not remember, but a year or more ago (it may have been two) I asked ths same question of you when you wrote about the “Kingdom breaking in” and you promised to write about it soon. As such, it would seem to me that you do need the reminder.
You made a promise that many months later you still have not kept. I would think that someone with “With seven years of Greek and a couple years of Hebrew along with class after class of textual studies” would not have a problem dealing with something that they clearly believe in. I have no such education, so I turn to you for help.
I am sorry if I seem harsh.
All the best of the day!
John
“After all a professional minister is getting paid for his skills of teaching, organizing and preaching within the church.”
Mike -I’m curious…
What is our New Testament model for having paid preachers in the first place?
Also, why are you committed to helping a large church when you say the future is in the small church.
Thanks.
You get it Mike. Like very few others at your level of ‘professional’ experience and success. Your words, depth and maturity give me hope for the future of the CofC heritage. Bless you and yours.
John, I will speak for myself, and not Mike, but to me it sounds like your question on the Memorial Day blog–
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“Hi Mike:
Could you please explain what it means when you wrote “And I double my prayers for the kingdom of God to continue breaking in”? I’ve seen you refer to this event before, but I have no idea what you mean. I thought the kingdom was here.
All the best,
John”
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is asking about the kingdom and its status as here, not here, already, not yet.
“The kingdom” is spoken of many times, and means at least three different things that I can think of in the NT. Jesus speaks of the kingdom in parables which seem to mean the eternal kingdom, and the kingdom as the church here in the present. In addition, the kingdom can refer to the belief that there will be an actual physical millenial kingdom on earth ruled over by Jesus with a “rod of iron”.
Also, if you spoke to an Israelite during the time of Jesus, it would have meant to him the kingdom of David, which had been taken away, and for which they were looking for a return, based on their understanding of prophetic language they were familiar with.
This term can mean many things, and I feel Mike is using it to mean the breaking in of Christ’s reign (not the millenial reign, but the “thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven” reign during this church age we are in. Some would equate this phrase with the millenial reign, but I don’t believe he is using it that way). But before I continue to try to explain what I think he means, I’d better stop, because I may be way off.
The way I have heard this phrase used –already but not yet–I feel the speaker is trying to say that we are agents for the “inbreaking” of his leadership and influence in the here and now, and “the kingdom” is being used in a way to refer to the church as well as its influence; to God’s called out people here on earth. I also infer an active role for the Holy Spirit in this inbreaking.
Maybe this will get the discussion going for you. I hope this is what you are asking, and offer it in a spirit of trying to help.
Thanks Mike, for putting yourself out in the open to encourage and challenge us. I was really spurred on by your post and most of the responses too. I grew up in a wonderful church and was trained by great teachers and missionaries. Still, it is hard to figure out how to do this right.
God bless us as we take his love to the masses… whether in huge buildings or tiny homes.
…oh yea, what do you think about them Mavs?
Mike,
Thanks for your thoughts today(and everyday) on the present and future church that we are serving. The tension for forming relevant messages comes from good exegetical skills in two areas, the Bible and the population you are serving. Some populations need “professionals” so they can hear the word in a language they understand. Other populations need someone educated but maybe not as polished so that socio-economic barriers are not an issue. It takes all kinds to bring the word of God to everyone. Great thought provoking post.
I began SBTS in Louisville 6 months before the SBC came down heavy on women in ministry and missions, and before they changed the fabulous ecumenical fabric of that great place of spiritual and theological learning. During the political turmoil, I noticed that many of the churches in the area which were staffed predominantly by seminary professors seemed to be dying in their communities.
The church that I ended up interning at and becoming most involved with was Southeast Christian Church, where Bob Russell preaches. At the time SECC was experiencing absolutely phenomenal growth, and Bob and the elders couldn’t understand why. They never planned for it to become a ‘mega-church’ (that phrase wasn’t even coined yet). They just knew that they had seriously prayed for God to help them grow the church in the way He saw fit, and were overwhelmed with His answer. When I began serving there, I asked Bob if it was OK if I did not complete seminary. I was seeing then that although much of what I was learning was a true blessing to me, I was having concerns about becoming ‘too professional’ in my quest — if I continued it seemed to pull me further and further away from people who would not be able to relate through the theological fog I so enjoy!
Bob had me look at the make-up of the staff at SECC. He pointed out that over half of the staff did not have a post-grad degree from a seminary. At the time he was not that familiar with ACU, my alma mater, but he knew that I had a strong Biblical and educational background. He and others there assured and encouraged me that God could use me in meaningful ministry without professional posturing (for lack of a better phrase). I had always felt somewhat inadequate in my training, as I had yearned all my life to become a minister. But the years I attended ACC/ACU were when women were not allowed to major in Bible. So I took as many missions courses (which seemed then to be treated like a Third World cousin) as I could. Academic confidence was not such a forte for me in those years, but I tried.
Anyway, all this to say, it’s about time that we re-think things through with regards to professional studies in ministry, missions, theology, and application. IMHO, it’s important not to throw the ‘pro’ out of the mission yet. Especially as more of Christian society seems to be falling into Biblical illiteracy. There is a lot of good to be said for ardent study, but we need to craft it around meaningful, missional ministry in post-modernity and beyond. Mentoring, dialoguing, and discipling are so needed. As are those who have God’s gifting in academics, analysis, and educating.
These are exciting times … we are rethinking here in the UK, too! Thanks for this post, Mike.
Hey Mike,
Man I cannot tell you how much encouragement I have received from this blog. I guess my biggest problem in doing ministry is that a lot of churches have always told me that being somewhat regal, having this professional look to you, is the key to success. I kind of felt like if that was the case, overiding loving people where they are at and engaging in their culture and needs, then I didn’t want to do ministry.
Listen, I’m heading up the 1838 ministry at ACU next year, cause Mark Lewis asked me to and I’m also starting up this ministry called “Jesus & The Hip-Hop Prophets” on campus. I was wondering if I could email you about some things and maybe get some insight from you concerning some stuff for the upcoming school year. I would really appreciate it.
Peace,
Matt W.
Mike,
I agree with your basic premise. If we follow Jesus through prayer and mediation we will know how to spend our day serving others. It will require our understanding of our unique gifts an a good understanding of the needs of our community. The needs here in Denver for the past 29 years have been discipling men to be good husbands and fathers in my own case. It means being there when they are broken down and hurting. It means celebrating their victories and entering into their grief. It means going to the wedding and the retirement party, but it also means sitting up all night when the parents find out their sweet daughter is pregnant. This is Jesus centered ministry and if it is not being taught and trained in our univerisities then repentance is in order. It means that we must examine if our own life is aligned with Jesus enough to give the living water to the next generation. Thanks for the thoughts Mike
At the risk of sounding overly contrarian, I think we’re making an either/or distinction needlessly here. Actually, I don’t think that’s what Mike did in his original post, but I think the comments have taken on a forceful tone of disdain for those who are not necessarily gifted in relational ways but in more administrative ways.
I think the church needs both to really be the organism and organization (and dare I say “institution”?) God intends it to be.
It may very well be a sign of our need for community that we tend to overemphasize one or the other.
If anyone’s still out there reading this comment string, check out this article about why the church must learn to die. He has some excellent points.
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