Inorganic Music
Once again, there were classes at Pepperdine (as there have been at ACU and Tulsa earlier this year) on the need for greater fellowship between Christian Churches and Churches of Christ — again taught by Bob Russell and Rick Atchley. Of course, this is just a beginning. A small beginning. But, it is an important beginning. (At least it’s a beginning in some places. Many of you are in places where you already realize that anyone who is a Christ-follower is WITH you not AGAINST you!)
So here’s my take on instrumental music: God doesn’t much care. Most of the old arguments were lame, built on shoddy hermeneutics.
Nevertheless, those in the a cappella tradition don’t need to be ashamed of it. There is a rich tradition in the church that runs through the centuries of singing without instruments. Even today, when people enter our churches, they are dumbfounded to hear people singing — full voice, four-part harmony.
That doesn’t mean it’s the only way, or that it’s God’s way. Sure, I could be blessed by being in a church with Chris Tomlin leading worship.
But I’m not. I’m in a congregation with a heritage of being a cappella. That doesn’t mark us as being the REAL people of God or as being RIGHT. But it is a rich heritage that can be, if continued in love and humility, a gift to Christian community, reminding us that worship is a place of full participation where we all offer ourselves again to God, seeking to be reshaped by him to live for the sake of the world.
So God bless the drums/guitars/saxophones that are played for the glory of God. And God bless the pitch pipes and the tuning forks that find a pitch so that others can sing without instruments.
Preserving this a cappella heritage isn’t nearly as important to me as it is to others. It’s nothing I’m going to fight a younger generation on. If they decide to set it aside for the sake of the mission, I’ll be with them. (Sad, perhaps, but still with them.)
But in the meantime, I want to participate at the top of my lungs; I want to remind others that such singing is a blessing; and I want to share with others a growing appreciation for the many different looks of the universal church that lives for Christ.
Steve, Thank you for giving me an authoritative answer. Now I can stay home from the assembly this Sunday & just worship in my cozy kitchen. I’ll listen to my favorite praise, hymn, psalms & spiritual songs on my wonderful Bose CD player(wait! is that considered an instrument?). And since it is Mother’s Day, I can sleep in for a change, & have that “day of rest” that God commanded. Thanks a million for clearing all that up for me! (All said with “tongue in cheek”, but I’m THIS CLOSE to doing it in protest of ludicrous mixed messages from the past)
I’m not sure if you were referring to me, but since my name is Steve, I’ll respond to your comment. You know what, what you suggested sounds nice. I think that’s exactly what I’m going to do this Sunday. Sabbath…that’s a novel concept…
Does anyone remember what Paul said was our “spiritual act of worship?” Was it an hour on Sunday, Sunday night, and Wednesday?
On this one, I’m with Leland, Matt, and anyone else who thinks “worship” should take a broader meaning than singing songs. Remember what James said “true religion” is? (…widows and orphans…)
I’m sorry if I sound short, but I fear that much of the resentment that has apparently surfaced here stems from 200 years of history in a tradition that has, since its origins (in the 1800s, not 33 AD) tried to restore the “ancient order of things,” meaning “the right way to have church on Sunday morning.” I’m not shunning my heritage, but I think the “ancient order” mentality has led to some serious division and its hermeneutic is fraught with error.
That’s why we’re here talking about how God wants us to sing for a total of 30 minutes a week. I’m not claiming to be “more enlightened” than anyone here, but gee wiz — seems like a grand adventure in missing the point!
I was struck by the wording of the sounds of worship in Solomon’s newly built temple. Today for the first time I noticed that the trumpeters and the singers were called “one voice”. That is an amazing new thought to me–the voice of a trumpeter in unision with the voice of a singer in praise:
All the Levites who were musicians—Asaph, Heman, Jeduthun and their sons and relatives—stood on the east side of the altar, dressed in fine linen and playing cymbals, harps and lyres. They were accompanied by 120 priests sounding trumpets. The trumpeters and singers joined in unison, as with one voice, to give praise and thanks to the LORD. Accompanied by trumpets, cymbals and other instruments, they raised their voices in praise to the LORD and sang:
“He is good; his love endures forever.”
Then the temple of the LORD was filled with a cloud, and the priests could not perform their service because of the cloud, for the glory of the LORD filled the temple of God. (2 Chronicles 5:11-14)
A freind of mine in Alabama once started a sermon, “While I preach today 30,000 children will die in Africa, and you people don’t give a damn. I know this becasue most of you are now more worried about the fact I said damn than the fact children are dying” He went on to talk about how we major in minors. I am amazed that this many adults with families and jobs and a kingdom to live out on this earth have time to talk about what words are appropriate, much less what music is appropriate. Maybe we should all spend some time helping with a missionary in Africa or an orphanage in Honduras, or even a soup kithchen in Memphis. I think we have lost a little perspective here and that is why we have lost our ability to lead anyone to Christ in our felloship unless you are born in it (we will still lost 75% of you) or married into. Let’s stop examining our own belly buttons and become relevant again.
Thank you, Brad from Jonesboro!
Many years ago I took an older friend and his wife (both were new Christians) to hear a rather popular preacher who was holding a “gospel meeting” in Daytona Beach. His topic: Why We Don’t Use Instrumental Music. I suppose he thought that was needed in the community of Daytona Beach. Anyway, he used the old argument from silence of Scripture and the Noah / gopher wood thesis. I grew up on those sermons and that argument. However, as we drove home (about a 2 hour drive), my friend said, “So, if I understood that sermon, we don’t use instruments in the churches of Christ because Noah built the ark from gopher wood?”
He was not trying to be funny or sarcastic, and I realized that night just how ridiculous was our argument.
Today I am in my 13th year as pulpit minister in a wonderful CA church (of Christ) where we have a very talented praise team / worship minister and singing as good as you’ll hear. And on Sunday nights I play guitar, keyboard (not so much now that the son of one of our elders has joined us), and banjo (yes, we do some bluegrass Stamps – Baxter oldies that rock!) in our praise band. Both services are a blessing to us.
By the way, about 30 years ago I used that statement that Brad from Jonosboro quoted above (“30,000 will die in Africa and you people don’t give a damn…”) and it nearly got me fired! People still tell me, “I was there when you slipped up and cussed in the pulpit!” Precious memories.
I’ve always understood that our whole life is “worship” to God. Imagine my confusion when we preach “worship with no instruments” but then listen to rock, country, rap, or classical music the next day! Shouldn’t we be consistent with our “no instrument” policy?
Having said that, I LOVE acappella music and was listening to Watershed Worship’s new CD on the way to work this morning!
Steve Jr., It was just “Steve” who answered my question. I totally agree with what you said. I get a little sarcastic when I’m frustrated.
Brad from Jonesboro, I have time to do both. It sounds like you do too—judging that you had time to comment to everybody else’s comments. We ALL need to be more like Christ for this world, don’t we?
I love to worship wherever, whenever, & with or without instruments. Loved Kathy S’s scripture from Chronicles.
Brad,
That sermon is now legendary. I remember hearing about it up here in Tennesee when I was a teenager. I remember because all the adults couldn’t believe he actually said it like that while the teens thought he was right on track. I picture John the Baptist saying things like that. Why else would people travel out in the wilderness to hear preaching?
On the issue of instrumental music in the church, I was never raised to believe it was wrong despite being raised Church of Christ. Of course I’m pretty young (27). My parents always kind of explained it as the old way of believing and it now has more to do with tradition. They also explained that many people still believed the “old way” and so we should respect that. So I do, but when the discussion comes up I was always willing to voice my opinion without shame or withholding.
As for cuss words I really appreciated what Scott Simpson had to say. As a theatre director in a high school and previous theatre major at ACU I’ve dealt with the issue of swearing on stage and censoring quite a bit. If a play is well written every word is carefully chosen to create character or a point or whatever. But, it doesn’t matter if it’s the roughest sailor or hardened prisoner some audiences are going to completely turn off if a character says a “dirty word.” I think that this is demonstrated in that Leland’s message was completely ignored because he typed D-A-M-N. While this is a shame, I suppose it’s something we’ve got to deal with and you can’t go out and try to convince you’re whole audience (blog readers or in a theatre) that it’s okay to say these words because of context or because it’s origins were prejudice and ignorance. I do think that we are becoming more lax with our “offense” meter with regard to bad words, as young people are much less likely to be offended than old. I realized this when I directed a play and everyone loved it but I had many older people come to me and say they couldn’t see the show because they heard about the language it contained. Some were pretty offended and surprised that “this good CoC boy” would even direct a show like that. I always tried to politely say that we’ve all got different beliefs and I just don’t think any word, if used correctly and beneficially is inheritly wrong and that any word, when intended to hurt, can be bad. I think that when trying to decide whether or not something should be labled offensive we should stop simply categorizing certain sounds or subjects but instead examine sincerity and intent of use.
I’m 45, born, raised, and attend a mid sized (260) a capella congregation in Ohio. As a deacon serving over the worship services, I’ve studied the arguments and scriptures stated here throughly and for the last 10 years just can’t justify the instrumental issue as pertaining to salvation or acceptable worship. One big problem I see is twisting scripture to fit preconceived agendas. That’s just not the way to study scripture.
I heard Terry Rush speak at the workshop in Tulsa this year and something really clicked when he described those of the Christian Church in hell because they used the instrument. They’re looking up to heaven seeing the Jews who used instruments, seeing the noninstrumentals singing with instruments in heaven (Revelations) and they’re saying “We went to hell because it wasn’t mentioned?!”
Singing worship to God is more serious than instrumental or non. It’s a real search of your heart and soul to worship in song. It requires great concentration that I think most people lack in worship services of any type. I’ve heard instrumental members complain that the music is too fast or the band too loud or the choir sang too long, etc. I personally (in noninstrumental worship) have concentrated so hard on the tenor harmony I’m singing that I totally lost any meaning of the song we’re singing. And talk about loosing it, “with sister Bulah singing that flat alto sitting right behind me I just couldn’t sing today.”
Our hearts are a much bigger issue than our methods and we need to concentrate on correcting that issue first.
Wow. So many varied thoughts and opinions…and then so many sidetracks. Isn’t that sort of ironic? I mean think about it…isn’t that the whole deal here? We get sidetracked talking about things that get our goat or whatever and forget the topic (or issue) at hand. It reminds me of a Tony Compollo quote–which I won’t quote. But basically he makes a statement about the lost of this world and throws in a curse word. After the gasps and fainting had died down, he quips, “…and most of you are more concerned with the word I just said than you are about the lost.” Not throwing stones here and not to diminish anyone’s sensibilities, but we can be extremely ADD.
Great post, Mike. You know I agree. Great comments, everyone! Thanks for giving us this forum to openly dialogue about stuff like this.
Being concerned about gutter language does not mean that I or others are not concerned for the poor or the starving in Africa. I happen to go to Africa every year and do all I can for a school and orphanage there. I just don’t understand the logic, but I do love the discussion, and Leland even though I strongly disagree with your language I do not think you are a bad person or that your language is a window into your heart. I just think your momma should have washed your mouth out with soap when you were little. Just kidding.
OK, while we’re vacationing on this bunny trail of foul language…
Can we all just lighten up a wee bit, as Mike said a few days ago??
Goodness gracious. What if we took care of what came out of our mouths (or keyboards…) and stopped moralizing other people? Let’s just assume that unless we are in a personal accountability with someone, their heart is pure (whether or not they say b.s. or “damn”). We’re living in a world that talks worse than that, and we’ve gotta be able to put up with a little of that.
By the way, I appreciated what someone said earlier on about the strong language in the Bible. Peter, Paul, and others were using some pretty strong language from time to time. Our P.C. translations don’t do some of the original texts justice. Let me say this to conclude: Some things in this world are too serious to be just “wrong” — “B.S.” is more appropriate.
I have to agree with Franklin Wood above. My CoC preacher father was/is so against instrumental music in worship that he couldn’t even enjoy his own dad playing hymns on the organ at home on Sunday mornings or any other time, yet he can listen to secular instrumental music all day long and never blink an eye. I grew up with all kinds of secular music but the only “Christian” music record we had was the ACC A Cappella Chorus with Pat Boone ( purchased before the “fall” of Pat Boone of course). I sure wish I could get a CD of that one. Who can forget My God and I?
I only started listening to instrumental contemporary Christian music about five years ago and since then I have pretty much quit listening to secular music radio all together. Why? Because CCM is uplifting and clean and inspiring and….the list goes on, while most popular music today has such objectionable lyrics and subject matter that isn’t healthy for me, at least, to listen to. Once you hear something, it is in your brain forever. There’s nothing like preparing to take communion and the lyrics of some pop song come to mind. I am always surprised at the lyrics of songs that come back to haunt me at some of the most inappropriate times.
I’m glad that our fellowship is starting to incorporate some instrumental music into the worship service. I know of a church that will never allow instrumental music in the auditorium (even for weddings or funerals) because of a clause in the agreement when the land for the building was bought that states that if any instruments are used in the auditorium the ownership of the land will revert back to the original owner. Whether or not that could ever be enforced I don’t know. Of course, they do allow it in the fellowship hall but not for VBS or any “church” related functions. There’s nothing like trying to sing VBS songs that were meant to be accompanied by the music without it. Ack!!!!
I agree with many in this blog that we really don’t even begin to touch the iceberg of what true worship is in our 30 minute services on Sunday. What would happen if one Sunday, the song leader just kept on singing because the Spirit led him to keep on going after the “2 songs and a prayer and a song and the communion” order? Wow. I hope I’m there if it ever does. It kind of boils down to this…it’s not about me….it’s about HIM. May we all worship in spirit and truth wherever we worship.
A couple of random thoughts from these comments:
1. Have you tried the Pampered Chef brand guacamole yet?
2. I think I better let my beard grow in…wouldn’t want God angry at me.
3. If we can use Nadab & Abihu, then we all have authority to install BBQ pits next to the pul(led pork)pit.
To think that every church has to look the same is ridiculous. Some people like quiet, contemplative, a cappella music. Others like loud, rock-your-socks-off, instrumental, give God the loudest praise we can muster music.
For some to complain that IM was TOO LOUD and “I just couldn’t worship” is fine…then go somewhere you CAN worship. For other people the off-key song leader is too distracting to worship. I love a cappella, but when it’s bad, my skin crawls.
This is totally a preference issue. If we’re going to reach everyone in the world for Christ, we’re going to need as many different churches as we can get on every corner so that people will be interested, then we need to close the doors on Sundays and get into the community. Then maybe we’ll meet to sing a few songs.
It’s also sad that these issues are the ones that generate 113 comments. The accountability issues usually have only 1 or 2 comments because people aren’t willing to confess their sins.
…I am pretty sure *wait, let me check* yeah, confession IS commanded, but, we don’t see too much of that in the church.
Is it a double sin to sing a song with a cuss word using a guitar?
If there is a “younger generation” that would “fight” other Christians to have instrumental music, then they are violating Romans 14 and I Corinthians 8 & 10, and they need to repent.
I don’t know why I sat and read through all of this tonight. I didn’t really enjoy it. I grew up coc in Abilene and now work at a former coc – now community church in East Texas. I’m very grateful to God for the freedom I am experiencing in Christ right now. That freedom comes from knowing that what God truly desires is a life of worship – all that I am every moment of every day in everything that I do. Isn’t it wonderful to all worship ONE God in so many different ways. He is great…
My head is swimming. I’m “bred & born” Cof C –I am committed to the beauty and simplicity of a cappella and will always wantto assemble with a group ofChristians who wish to praise God in the same way.
This dialog leads me to 2 (compound) questions?
1. When we talk of the cofC (or CofC) or variations thereof stating what “we” believe – who is “we” and who determines what the the “belief” is?
2. Would God require something of us as a “salvation” issue that “normal people” (that’s another topic) who are committed to following the Bible can’t understand from reading the Bible. or did he intend that we needed to have the “theologians” prepare scholarly treatises with months of research to arrive at a position? (This dialog is evidence that singing as a “scriptural imperative” falls in that category)
Having said that I think Mark (May 10 (9:37) came the closest toexpressing why I want to praise God vocally when I assemble –
It is too bad that we have to put “short form”labels” like Church of Christ or Christian church on groups of Christians in order to help us find people who share our personal beliefs and practices –and maybe that is what the issue is– why are we so hung upon the label if the real goal is being a group of Chritians who come together in community (as I read elsewhre to-day) to fulfill the “one anothers” of scripture.
I am awed by the spirit of seeking to follow our Lord–at the end that is what seems to me isimportant -and these other things must be the consequences of “loving God and loving others” not something we do to “prove” or “justify” why God should extend his grace to us.
God Bless
Charlie
If the Mark you are referring to is Mark Love, you had a treat to sit in on his classes…great stuff.
Let’s remember not to become “Professional Weaker Brethren” and quote Romans and 1 Corinthians every time we are a little uncomfortable. That goes beyond what Paul is talking about.
Steve Jr.- Thanks for speaking so eloquently for our generation! I don’t give a flying flip as to whether the music is instrumental or not. As long as the focus is worship it’s all that matters. And as Beaner said so well, worship is constant- not just when singing at church. I’m praying that generations today and generations to come will continue to shift their focus away from things that don’t matter at all and onto kingdom things!
Wait! Wait! If it doesn’t matter how will we know who we are? What about all the sacirificing and battles won? What about all the divisions in families, what about all the conversions from other beliefs–what about all that? Are we dishonoring our past–and the people we love from our own past if we decide that it doesn’t matter? How will all those who “fought the good fight” and “stood up for the truth” feel if we decide that it really doesn’t matter?
How can we tell them?
(At least it’s a beginning in some places. Many of you are in places where you already realize that anyone who is a Christ-follower is WITH you not AGAINST you!).
Mike I do agree that we need to heal the wound between us and our brothers and sisters in the Christian Church. I am doing what I can to do that. I have called and become good friends with a Youth Minister at a Christian church here in Houston (against some peoples liking). It has been great. We get together once a month for lunch. We talk, laugh, encourage, and pray. We even played golf today. I once thought that instruments were of the devil and because of that could not have anything to do with people that used them. But I have changed my position on that.
But my question is where do we draw the line? Most religions say they follow Christ, but have different teaching on things that do matter (i.e. baptism, communion, and etc) how do we handle those issues?
Thank you for your great post. May God bless you and your ministry.
Kathy-
This post is two days old, now – so I doubt that you (or much anyone else) is reading at this point. But – in case you are reading – I wanted you to know that you are asking a question that is really important to me right now, and I hope you’ll keep asking it.
I anticipate a lot of transitions – and not just on this issue – during the next 20-30 years. I think they are inevitable, and will even be good things, for the most part, because the gospel must now infiltrate a radically new and different culture. But I hope, as it happens, that we will also seek out and honor all of the good things that were accomplished by our spiritual parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents – the people who went before us in our faith tradition.
They played a critical role during their day and in their culture – God’s story moved forward as a result of their faithfulness. And while the journey may have taken some unexpected, recent twist, they helped to bring us to where we are, and we should be respectful and grateful for that.
Not only do I look forward to the day when there’s no more discussion about instruments or no instruments, coC vs doC, but rather I look forward to the day when all of God’s people simply see each other as God’s people, regardless of what traditions they prefer or what denomination with which they associate. One God made this whole universe to worship him. Worship him in whatever manner you please.
Okay it’s official. We are way too inwardly focused. All this discussion about old “coc” tradition when, in fact, the world probably does not give a rip. When this topic gets 3 times as many comments as your sex post I wonder if we are all that aware of what’s going on around us. I am pretty sure families are not being torn apart by a piano. Just a thought from another li’l ol’ worshipper.
When I get to heaven, I want to worship with Andrae Crouch and the Disciples.
I worship with him/them already (CDs).
Andrae Couch is not from our tradition; but I am blessed so richly to be able to worship with a wide variety of expressions.
I have read with interest some comments regarding instrumental music. Please let us remember it is Holy God we are worshiping, and it is Him we are to please with worship. It is plain that the instrument was not only used in the Old Testament, it was commanded. In the New Covenant the only mention is to sing, with the melody made in the heart. Did the Holy Spirit forget to command the instrument? Does God appreciate us “helping Him out” by “improving” on what he has asked us to do to worship Him? Maybe a little peanut butter and jelly would make the Lords Supper more apealing, huh? Please respect what is written and not go beyond for the sake of pleasing man. Please, please respect what our God has given us, His Holy word.
I stopped being concerned whether God accepted the instrument or not when I read the book of Revelation a few years ago.
If God is passing them out in heaven for all that over come, I no longer had any doubt. Especially when I saw them singing the song of Moses accompanied with them! : )
Revelation 15:
1I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed. 2And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name. They held harps given them by God 3and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb:
“Great and marvelous are your deeds,
Lord God Almighty.
Just and true are your ways,
King of the ages.
4Who will not fear you, O Lord,
and bring glory to your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come
and worship before you,
for your righteous acts have been revealed.”
Mike, is Highland getting ready to have a seeker service with instruments soon? If so, when?
Tim Edgeworth,
I appreciate your input and understand where you are coming from because I was there for many years. SO please understand my comments to be made from a good heart and not trying to attack you.
I too, often used to refer a lot to the verse “making melody in your heart”. Does this argument assume that when David sang some of those beautiful psalms that he was not making melody on his heart to the Lord. We seem to have taken from this verse that it’s either the heart or the harp – but was that Pauls intention in writing this section. Isn’t it true that even when we sing accapella, what really matters is the melody form our heart? I really do not think that the use of instruments was on Pauls mind when writing this verse. In fact, the context proves that – it basically says don’t get drunk (like we often do as humans when depressed thinking it will help) but instead be joyful by singing to God.
As far as never being commanded by God to use the instrument – the biggest problem I have with that argument (not the only one) is that the people I know who use it are never consistent. Are we commanded to use buildings for our worship? To use the money given to God to pay for the building, utilities, etc. In the O.T. the place of worship was very important – it even dictating who could go in certain places and who couldn’t. So by your argument, can you worship our holy God in a church building paid for with mney given to God when there is no command for it? Cecil Hook made a great point in one of his articles. He says by this type of argument, when a person is sick he MUST call the elders to pray for him, because that is what it says in James. He cannot call the doctor, a family member, he cannot go get medicine or medical treatment. We have a direct command on what to do when sick – call the elders and let them pray over him…. As your argument mentioned, “In the new covenant the only mention is to sing”. Well, by that same argeument, the only mention of what to do when you are sick is to call the elders – for those who don’t have elders, I guess they’re in trouble.
The last thing I want to mentoin is that it seems John’s book of Revelation would have been awfully confusing to first century Christians. In the first century, we have Jews whose cultural background involved instruments in worship, are now supposedly being taught that instrumetns are an abomination to use before God. Then they read John’s leeter and are told about John’s vision of heaven where Christians are worshiping God with instruments (given by Him). The message would be, instrument were fine before Jesus died, but from he time Jesus died until we get to heaven they are an abomination to God. But, after we get to heaven, they will again be pleasing to God in worship. So, for now we are in some middle period where for some unmentioned reason, instruments are an abomination. Doesn’t that seem rather strange?
Jaimie Kurpiel,
It is with interest and appreciation for your remarks above. I certainly do not question your faith or love of God whom we all wish to please by worshipping Him. When we are given the command to worship God, it is expedient to have a place to do such. Whether to worship under a tree, in a home or a designated building. Funds given on the first day of the week as worship can be used to fund the work of the church, which include evangelism [ preaching, teaching, worship items, etc] scriptural benevolence, and edification. For instance, we are commanded to sing, therefore we must have a song to sing, whether it comes from a book purchased by the church or is from memory, or an overhead projector, all may be authorized to fulfill the command / priviledge to offer acceptable worship. To use the passages you cited in the book of Revelation to authorize the use of instrumental music in worship would require the literal interpretation of what is clearly meant to be “signs”, for instance are the creatures mentioned literal? Are there only 144000 souls to be saved? It would also require one to place laws in the heavenly realm as applicable to those on earth. There is no marrying or giving in marriage in heaven, can we say the same here? The argument is compelling that the Holy Spirit authorized the use of the instrument along with dance, incense, animal sacrifices, tithing and circumcision to be pleasing to Him in the Old Testament, which is now done away. In any passage mentioning making music as praise and worship in the New Testament that music was vocal and verbal only. I submit that the Holy Spirit is perfect, He did not forget in His inspiration of Paul and others to mention the type worship / praise that is acceptable to Him. He did however mention that “adding to”, “going beyond”, “not abiding in” or “preaching another” were contrary to His will. The instrument is not mentioned any where in the New Testament as acceptable praise / worship for his earthly subjects.
If you rob us of our freedoms in Christ and legalize the NT the same as the Old Testament
then I suspect you will need to do a couple of things before you assemble again or you will go to hell.
Acts 2:42ff mentions that Christians met daily.
They broke bread daily……….not just Sundays
They shared with the needy
Yes we can pay a Pulpit preacher………if he is an elder and only if he is an elder..
Yes we can support a missionary to go into all the world.
Yes we can allow an Apostle or anyone for that matter to stop but and pick up funds to help the needy in Judea.
BUT THATS IT.
Acts 2:42 they met in homes.
Numerous references are made through out the NT concerning Christians that met at so and so house.
Please justify “with scripture how we can stop meeting in homes?
30 homes with 10 members in each home = 300 Christians.
Please show me where God authorize the taking of funds to pay for a 1.5 million dollar building while “NEEDY”children starve to death daily around the world?
Also read the following text and tell me if your congregation all take turns in the assembly?
1 Corinthians 14:26ff
26 What then shall we say, brothers? “WHEN YOU COME TOGETHER”, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.
29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
36 Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37 If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38 If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.[i]
39 Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.
How does your assembly function?
If different by what authority do you use?
Clay
I guess when brethren attempt to justify sinful behavior in worship [musical instruments ] they attempt to show inconsistancies in others. A little study in context and I Cor. 13 would help the previous writer understand that those miraculous gifts he mentioned were done away when the complete word of God had come. It is certainly true the early Christians met with each other dailey and had meals together, and truly depended on each other for making it through each day, both physically and spiritually. Of course this in no way addresses the question of how God wants His subjects to worship Him, which in the N.T. scriptures does not include the instrument. As far as huge mega churches, the previous writer may have a point, scriptural benevolence and spreading the gospel may take a backseat to less important matters, Tim
Tim, using your standard:
You forgot the breaking of bread daily. Acts 2 same Greek as acts 20:7
Either you meet in your home with other Christians and the only monies you distribute is for benevolance, elders and missionaries or you sin.
You fire your Pulpit preacher for He is unauthorized and you violate scripture unless he is an elder.
You either allow dialogue and Stop even your pulpit elder from lecturing or you sin.
Follow all of the Pattern or “hush” about the instrument which is, at it’s best terrible legalistic logic!
Other than that you are fairly close to duplicating the NT church.
Clay
Lets see Clay, a little study would make your observations clearer. In Acts 2:46 a consideration of context would show this is a common meal, especially since they did eat their “meat” with gladness, while in Acts 20:7 it surely seems Paul tarried until the first day of the week when believers gathered for the purpose of taking the rememberance supper. Im curious, is there anyone who thinks the context shows the Lords Supper was taken daily?
Oh yeah, check out 1Cor.9:14, seems the preacher here [ no mention of an elder ] has the right to live of the gospel, which by implication from vs 13 was by contributions to the temple. Then there is Romans 10:14-15, speaks a bit about needing a preacher [ no mention of an elder in sight ] and some commentators feel this is another passage authorizing financial support.
Lets see, so now there is authorization for paying a preacher who is not an elder, which seems to be Brother Clay”s concern. But where is any trace of an instrument authorized in the New Testament for worship. How can it be considered legalistic to follow the will of the Holy Spirit in offering praise and worship the way he has had the inspired writers to record it? The Holy Spirit is perfect, he certainly commanded the use of instruments in the Old Law, did it slip his mind in the New Testament? Of course not, and is it legalistic to “not go beyond what is written”, “not add to”, ” abide in the doctrine” [as opposed to outside] ? I ask for a single New Testament passage authorizing the use of instruments by His subjects in worship to Him.
By the way, Colossians 3:17 tells me there must be Jesus authority in all we do religeously, right after he tells us in vs16 to sing with banjo’s oh Im sorry, grace in your hearts to the Lord. One pertainent verse, if you can, if not you must admit you are being presumptious in adding to what the perfect Spirit has written. Tim
Brother Tim
Go into all the world and preach the Gospel.
That’s what preachers/Apostles/Evangelist/Missionaries were commanded to do.
Perhaps there is a scripture that teaches someone should “stay” and be overseers of the flock. Perhaps those that planted churches by preaching the Gospel to those that did not know the Lord, picked men to oversee the flock so that they as preachers/missionaries/evangelist could full fill the preaching of the Gospel?
Notice Jesus didn’t say, Stay in the Pulpit and preach the Gospel to those that have already been saved. Wouldn’t that be the work of an elder which the Holy Spirit gave that responsibility?
Support evangelist/missionaries/Apostles…….Sure.
Pulpit Preachers ? ……….NOPE , Sorry not using your standard of “speaking where the bible speaks and being silent where the bible is silent.” Sorry, that is blatant sin. Using your standard Pulpit preachers are just as sinful as using the instrument………perhaps worse for we have the pattern spelled completely out for us.
Your correct, no mention is made that it is wrong to use the instrument.
They were commanded of God in the Old testament, they are seen by the Apostle John in the NT being passed out by God for those that over come and get this…..they sung the song of Moses! “WOW” They did both!
Sorry for straining at the NAT on this text and being as precise and as un swayed as you are in dealing with sing and make a melody in your heart.
Let me guess? You oppose this reasoning because……….your a Preacher?
I thought so.
Could you be just a little biased if you can’t see this blantant error in your reasoning?
Brother Clay: You still have not produced any inkling of a passage authorizing the instrument. Folks who go to Revelation place a pretty hard burden on themselves when they try to interpret figurative language as literal. For instance. if taken literally I hope you are one of the only 144,000 saved and these are only virgin males…. hmm You may not want to interpret that literally, oh yeah in Rev.5:8 there is an interesting passage which mentions harps, but it also mentions golden vials full of odors. Im glad you folks didnt try to interpret that literally, it seems the Spirit did it by telling us what it is, the”prayers of saints”. Wonder what the figurative language means when talking about the “harps of God”. Certainly there is no chance that anything from this earth will be there. Hey, you didn’t address Collosians 3:17 where Paul instructs the church to do all things by His authority, its a pretty easy study, and interestingly enough right after mentioning how to give our Lord praise with the fruit of our lips. Still waiting for some verse which allows the instrument to be used in worship. Music is either vocal or instrumental [basic music 101] Which one does the Holy Spirit authorize for worship to Him for His N.T. subjects?
I guess you just missed the point about preachers, preachers are an expedient to preach the gospel, under the oversight of the eldership. They are to preach in season and out of season, and have a right to be paid, 1Cor 9:12-13. by the way, it is preaching if you address the congregation with the word of God, His Gospel, therefore this is a preacher. The word of God authorizes such to be paid if agreed upon. I wish I could preach, too bad I have to work in a secular job.
Still waiting for any verse …. Tim
Tim I think we have become so legalistic in viewing the revelation of the New Covenant that is recorded in the New Testament that it has become embarrassing.
Cling to your legalese as you read the NT and promote your legalistic condemning attitude if you so desire……….but I will exercise my freedoms found in Christ and the perfect law of LIBERTY. I am not with you my brother on this divisive issue any longer and neither is a growing multiplied thousands of others that have decided to work out there own salvation, instead of letting the church dictate to us/them what we may or may not do.
But I love ya any way!
Actually I have all the scripture I need and as soon as you produce scripture that commands the erection of a 1.5 million $ structure to worship God from then I will find a commandment to use the instrument by then, so you will be set free from a yoke of religious bondage.
Clay
Tim,
Way to tackle the most relevant issue facing the planet today.
There is no evidence of the early Church using computers to exchange ideas and evangelize the world.
Better go forward next week and ask for forgiveness.
Keep up the good work; maybe no one will take us seriously when you are done.
2 Corinthians 3:3-6
2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody.
3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of “HUMAN HEARTS”.
4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God.
5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God.
6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Matthew 5:8
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. (Unless they use IM ?)
1 Timothy 1:5
The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
2 Timothy 2:22
Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
Hebrews 10:22
let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.
Life by the Spirit
16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, YOU ARE NOY UNDER LAW.
19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
HMMMMM How did he miss worshipping God with that evil instrument?
He did mention Dissension, over the Instrument?
He mentioned discord, over the Instrument?
He mentioned factions, over the instrument?
I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. “OUCH” Over the Instrument?
Well who’s Law is it that man cannot us the Instrument.
Where is that Law if it’s in Scripture?
I havent seen that Law.
OOPS, forgot about the scripture that says..We must have an example a command or a necessary inferance before we may practice such.
Where is that verse again that says that?
Let me reason, if this just may be truth we’re toying with here.
If we are no longer under God’s Law then how in the world would we be under man’s Law?
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, YOU ARE NOT UNDER LAW.
OH, I see it doesn’t say God’s Law, it says LAW “period”
So who’s LAW is it that we use the hermeneutic of CENI ?
Is it Man” or is it God’s?
Well aparently God didn’t make any “church laws” on how to assemble.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, YOU ARE NOT UNDER LAW.
Hey, wow, just back from a weekend on call at the hospital, sure do appreciate the efforts Bro. Clay is going through to try to make instrumental music ok in the worship. I wish he could find some authority, because believe it or not I think this type music sounds great. Lets see, everything he has written so far seems to prove there is no authority from the Holy Spirit for certainly if a pertainent passage existed he would have grabbed it with both hands. So now he says we are to be led by the spirit and not the Law, [of course basic Bible 100, maybe even 9th grade sunday school teaches plainly this Law is the Old Covenant, and in this we totally agree], Now as far as being led by the Spirit, you are also totally right, in that the Spirit has given us everything we need for doctrine, life and Godliness is written in His Holy Scriptures, [would this include how to worship and praise Him?] 2 Timothy 3:16-17. Oh yeah, funny thing Jesus our Savior said about loving Him, something about “keeping His commandments” John 14:15. Oh yeah… the Holy Spirit inspired apostle Paul had an interesting thing to say to the Lords church at Thessalonica, in chapt. 5:21, he implores them to ” prove all things: hold fast that which is good”. Hmm… seems worship to God is good, I wonder if proving how to worship is good? Reckon how a person may go about proving what pleases the most unbelievably awsome so far ahead of us we cant even comprehend all powerful God in offering praise and worship? It could be that we could read what His Spirit has inspired men to record. Or we could determine it just does’t matter, that the silence of the Holy Spirit means is “no holds barred” [of course the Holy Spirit woud have to forgive you for ignoring a few other verses which paint a real clear picture that doing stuff like that really is not His idea... Rev.22:18-19, 1Cor 4:6, 2 John 9-11, Gal.1:8-9, and for all you Proverbs fans check out Prov. 30:6.]. Hey, it woud be great if silence of the scriptures gave us a pass to do whatever in worship. The fruit of the vine could use a little kick to it, the unleavened bread sure woud taste better with a little jelly, sometimes there is a bit of an “air” on my bench at church [lots of new babies who don't do as well with formula you know] maybe we could burn some insense, oh yeah, sometimes after a long shift at the hospital its hard to focus on the worship, maybe the deacons should pass out a little hashish[ just to focus my mind in the right mood]. You have absolutely the same divine authority to add each of these as you do an instrument.
Hey Leland, your right,way too much energy has been focused on this type discussion, we should be converting our friends and family to Gods saving grace, but instead folks seem to want to throw a wrench in the wheels by trying to please themselves by doing things which are sinful and may cause a new creature to stumble. How to worship God the way He wants is pretty relevant don’t you think?
Clay, I do appreciate your efforts, and yes I have love for you also, this has been a fun discussion. Still waiting for that pesky little passage…….Tim
TIM
Is it just me or did I miss your “authority” for taking the Lord’s money, moving the NT assemblies from homes (10 homes X 20 Christians = 200 total meeting in same neighborhood) when the only monies distributed and “authorized” was for the “needy/poor and “assisting” missionaries and elders in their work.
By what “authority” do you condone the erection of a $1.5 million worship building with Pulpit/pews to worship God “correctly from” with a “professional paid $ pulpit preacher” lecturing Christians for 30 minutes which “violates” the same standard you use for the instrument.
5,000 CHILDREN STARVE TO DEATH DAILY IN AFRICA FROM DISEASES AND MALNUTRITION. WONDER HOW MANY CHILDREN WE COULD SAVE FROM PHYSICAL DEATH IF WE DID WHAT THE NT CHRISTIANS DID BY SELLING OUR PROPERTY?
PERHAPS THE UNAUTHORIZED WORSHIP BUILDING?
At best with the instrument you have an issue equal to eating meat offered to idols
or you sin your self for going beyond what’s written or authorized by the word of God
with an unauthorized worship building and “professionally paid Pulpit preacher in lieu of elders who are given that reasonability by God’s Holy Spirit.
“If” you attempt to bind or judge a brother on the instrument then make sure you obey the whole LAW that you have bound on him and be sure not to violate it yourself.
Why you ask? Romans 2:1
[God's Righteous Judgment] You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. “OUCH”
In Christian love Clay
Can you spell “INCONSISTENT” ?
Lets see, Clay’s tried to make instrumental music right by finding authority in passages in Revelation, that was pretty easy to show ineffective, then he seems to try to say silence of scriptures gives authority, that too was easy to debunk, now he reaches again for the old “if Im wrong your wrong too” trying to show inconsistency [ of which his argument has already been shown unable to hold water]. Come on Clay, surely there is something in the New Testament scriptures which would make it plain that the Holy Spirit is pleased with “going beyond what is written” by singing and playing. Maybe you could try the old “psallo” means to play argument which was tried years ago, at least they tried to find scriptural authority.
By the way Clay, the pseudo issues you tried to bring up were addressed in an earlier post. Still looking for an inkling of authority from the New Testament for I.M. Tim
Let’s let the readers determine what you have so easily disproven and what you have so absolutely proven. I am sure you will probably find a way to twist this TEXT as well.
We EACH are to “work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.”
While I appreciate your zeal to work that out for all your brethren it
really isn’t necessary. But thank you for your efforts.
See ya in the Kingdom and please only take one Harp?
In Christian Love for the sake of the Christ and Unity of God’s believers
Clay
I thank you for giving me then
Tim Edgeworth,
I have been wanting to comment on your last post to me, but I had been quite busy in the last month – out of town and such. I did want say that in one sense we may spend too much time on this ratehr than on evangelism and benevolence. However, I really believe that issues like this effect the greater work of the church. The world sees things like the Christian Church and the Churches of Christ withdrawing fellowship and being divided over the instrument and then we go to them to teach gospel and teach about the importance of unity. If this an issue that divides Christians and breaks unity, then it is an important issue.
I agree with you about Revelation and the seen heaven being picture, as well as the other things in Revelation. However, it still seems awfully strange that God would choose to use even the picture of instuments being used to worship Him if it were an abomination to Him. In one hand, He would be saying, if you use the instrument you will lose your salvation, and the other hand he shows a picture of being worshiped with instruments. Yes, it’s a picture, a symbol – but that still doesn’t make sense to use a picture or symbol of an instrument used to worship God, when it is supposed to be detestable to God. Why is it that David could please God using the harp? Because Jesus died that somehow makes the harp detestable to Him?
You keep saying there is no command for the use of the instrument, but on the subject you say it’s expedient. It’s amaxizing how we use that word expedient to justify liberties we take and say everything else is sinful. I know some people who use the instrument and say that they use it because it is expedient. What would you say to that? There is no command not to use it, and it is expoedient. They say it helps them stay on key and helps to the church and all stay together. There is no authority for a song leader, but it’s expedient to have one, right? So, why couldn’t someone use an instrument, if it’s expedient to their worshiping God? Our song leaders use a pitch pipe to get the right key. Others chose an instrument to follow the key. Now, we use a pitch pipe for song leading and say its’ ok, but the moment the singing begins I guess it would be sinful to use continue using – even if the purpose was to follow the key of the pitch pipe just as we follow a song leader, right? But, what if it’s expedient? You see, who chooses what is expedient and what is not? We use “expedient” for any liberty we take that violates the hermeneutic of the “silence of the sdcriptures”, but then we turn around condemn others who use liberites in view of being expedient. Even the Christian Church beleives in the authority of the Bible and silence of the scriptures. In fact, the Christian Church uses the same argument that you use for buildings. Theysay that the N.T. is silent on this issue; there is no comand, and it is expedient to use it. Those of us having grown up in Churches of Christ and always sang accapella may have a hard time seeing how an instrument can be expedient, but I met people who honestly say they have a hard timsinging without music to help them follow.
Also, the letters were written for a purpose, and unless it was a problem, why would it be addressed, especially if instruments were not a new law of the covennant – and yes it would be a new law of God. If instruments were used in the past, and they were still ok, why would Paul or anyone have to say, “and by the way, you can still use an instrument if you wish.” And I’m sorry, but the versus we often use in Colosians and Ephesians are not addressing an issue of instuments or no instruments.
I would still like to hear what you have to say about James 5:14 and calling the elders when you are sick. According to your view of silence of the scriptures and the authority of the scriptures, how could you justify calling anyone else when you are sick. At the least, how could you justify not calling the elders and letting them pray for you everytime you are sick? Isn’t it a command by James to call the elders when you are sick? Here you have a comand, and I dont; know of any other verse in the N.T. that gives authorization to do anything else when sick. Oh, I knonw, maybe it’s expedient to call the doctor instead. When you are that rigid with this hermenetic I really beleive that you will come accross many inconsisitencies. I am complete agreement wth Rick Atchley, that our past hermeneutic is flawed.
As one preacher put it, the laws of God are not written between the lines. The law that say “use of instruments causes loss of salvation can only be found in between the lines.
Look forward to your reply