Yesterday after class a couple students came up and said that at their church they’d been told to get rid of their TNIVs because the translation gets rid of the male language for God. That is awkward because I’ve talked about the improvements made in the TNIV.
(By the way, I seriously doubt that they heard this from their minister. I’m guessing it was from a class.)
Let me be clear: the TNIV does NOT get rid of the male language for God.
It does, however, make some changes (just one of many areas where improvements are made over the older NIV) that reflect differences in the way Greek and English deal with gender.
For example, I have one brother and two sisters. In Spanish I could say I have three hermanos. Even though “hermano” is the word for brother, in the plural it can include brothers and sisters. But even though in Spanish I could say I have three hermanos, I wouldn’t in English say I have three brothers.
Similarly, when Paul writes to the “brothers” in a church, he isn’t just addressing the males. So in Today’s NIV it comes out as “brothers and sisters” (unless, of course, the context suggests a male audience).
Here’s what D. A. Carson, who’s known as a fairly conservative Evangelical scholar, has said about the TNIV: “The TNIV is more accurate than its remarkable predecessor, the much-loved NIV, while retaining all the readability of the latter. It is a version I can use with confidence, whether I am speaking at a university mission, or in a Bible conference anywhere in the English-speaking world. I am deeply impressed by the godliness, linguistic competence, cultural awareness, and sheer fidelity to Scripture displayed by the translators. Thirty or forty years from now, I suspect, most evangelicals will have accepted the TNIV as a ’standard’ translation, and will wonder what all the fuss was about in their parents’ generation—in the same way that those of us with long memories marvel at all the fuss over the abandonment of ‘thees’ and ‘thous’ several decades ago.”
My preaching hero John Stott has said: “It has never been easy to distinguish between a ‘translation’ and a ‘paraphrase’. Translations tend to go for contemporary scholarship at the expense of contemporary language, whereas paraphrases tend to sacrifice accuracy for relevance. Today’s New International Version is highly successful in combining both scholarly accuracy and linguistic relevance.”
Despite what a few have said, the TNIV isn’t an attempt to create some gender neutral society. It’s an attempt by people who love scripture to translate scripture accurately in this generation. Spend a little time at their website, and you’ll get a feel for the devotion the translators had to this communicating God’s message. If you want to check out more about their decisions of how to handle language related to gender, there’s a great explanation here. As he explains, one day we’ll realize that this was a tempest in a teapot!
Mike,
Thanks for posting about this. I have personally come to love the TNIV. I think it does a great job bringing even more readability and care to the scriptures. Bless you my brother!
I have to admit that it baffles me when people get worked up over stuff like this. Generally speaking, it’s people who “heard this” or were “told that” by someone else and haven’t even researched or checked it out for themselves. The truth is, we have much bigger fish to fry in this world than bickering over the masculinity of God used in a particular translation. Children will go without food, clothing, and shelter here in the United States and thousands will die of starvation across the world. Can we bicker about how to fix that, please?
I’ve been using the TNIV for several years. I’m no translation expert, but Mike is correct that it doesn’t get rid of the male language for God, nor does it take things directed at men only and make it say men and women.
I guess I don’t really understand why it would be such a big deal if the male language for God was gone, though. Do people really thing God is a male? Or is it more a matter of sticking with tradition? Or are they afraid that God will be depicted as a female?
I’m not a Biblical scholar by any means, but I got a TNIV for Christmas and I love it!
Mike- Thanks for this post. We just had a conversation about this in our staff meeting at the church, and some of us had a great deal of questions. Thanks for making things so clear. I think I will head to the Bible book store and pick up a copy. I would be interested in your opinion of the accuracy and readability of THE MESSAGE?
Why do we get hung up on the supposed masculinity of God anyway? If God is a male, what does that mean? Does he go to the bathroom standing up? Or did the concept only have real meaning for the ancients?
Conni - Good luck at the bookstore. Here in town, I couldn’t buy one at the bookstore I went to. The salesperson explained that the owner of the bookstore thought it was out to promote a feminist agenda. Yikes! Such misinformation flowing from fear (at least on the part of some). The website does give you plenty of info on how to order.
“The Message”? I love Eugene Peterson. One of my heroes. I like how The Message is blessing people with a fresh reading. For that, I’m very thankful. It’s not for me, but I’m glad it’s blessing others.
Thos of us who are students at Harding Graduate School were given a free copy of the TNIV. I have been impressed by the translation. I appreciate the work done to use gender inclusive language when it is used in the original language. I also appreciate that when context calls only for the masculine form of a word, the translators of the TNIV use the masculine form in ENglish. It is a great tool. I am attached to my NIV study Bible that I have had for over ten years, but I will be using the TNIV more and more.
Mike, I have been using the NRSV for awhile now which follows some of the same guidelines as the TNIV. I, too, was given a free copy of the NT in the TNIV translation and I like it. Honestly, it’s not all that different from the NIV. I appreciate many of the choices that the committee made. I don’t know why so many people are threatened by new translations. I don’t know why “good-old-day” syndrome has creeped into religion when it comes to translations of the Bible. We have fresh scholarship available every year. Are we just not supposed to use what’s available to us that wasn’t available to people when the KJV or NIV was originally translated? Luckily, my church here in Louisville is a congregation that supports many translations. Some use NIV. Others still use KJV. I used the NRSV. In the end, like John Risse says, the best translation is the one you will read. That is the rule I have tried to follow.
Mike, I’m proud to be your brother.
I was a part of a focus group for Zondervan at the National Pastors Convention a few years ago on the TNIV. The suggestion that I made was that they eliminate some of the antiquated language from the NIV. Mostly it appears that this type of language has been kept in. Words like “atonement”, “justification,” and “redemption” are code words in the Christian community mostly because of the hesitancy of translators to put them into modern words. These code words have little or no meaning to the modern reader.
I like what the NLT has done here. Here’s a comparison between NLT and TNIV. Both words and sentence structures are much more modern and understandable in the NLT. Notice how NLT puts into today’s English phrases like “predestined” and “redemption.”
Ephesians 1:3-8
(NLT) How we praise God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we belong to Christ. Long ago, even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. His unchanging plan has always been to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. And this gave him great pleasure.
So we praise God for the wonderful kindness he has poured out on us because we belong to his dearly loved Son. He is so rich in kindness that he purchased our freedom through the blood of his Son, and our sins are forgiven. He has showered his kindness on us, along with all wisdom and understanding.
(TNIV) Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding,
I notice that the TNIV is not really being marketed that hard. Most of our Christian Bookstores in Florida have very few TNIVs.
I’m wondering if the response to TNIV is mostly lukewarm. I also know that Zondervan is in the money making business and are probably hesitant to mess with a money making model like the NIV.
My opinion is that the NLT is a better translation and much more modern in its language. I generally use it as my “modern” translation as an alternative to the NIV.
Do you know how this translation has been received in the University setting?
Certainly translations have been long overdue on updating words like “anthropos” to mean men and women rather than just men and “adelphoi” to mean siblings– brothers and sisters–rather than just brothers.
Peace.
Thanks for this informative post. I was introduced to the TNIV at the Emergent Convention in Nashville in 2005. I’ve been using it ever since in my preaching and teaching. The reception has been extremely positive!
Man, I knew I shouldn’t have deleted my “God Has Boobs” post before I published it. I think we could learn a lot about God by using more feminine descriptors.
Or, we could go the way of *some* scholars who refuse to use any gender based terms and refer only to God and God’s self rather than “himself” or “herself.”
Seems like such a weird thing to waste cycles over (in the words of my husband). Imagine the good that could be done if we used our “mind cycles” to work on the real issues.
It is interesting that so many people will jump on the negative on something that they really don’t know about. It seems that they are prone to believe the worst about a person or group in this case because they heard someone else say so.
I remember laughing out loud about 20 years ago when I read the preface to the 1611 King James Bible where the translators said that a serious student should not limit themselves to any one translation. I read that in a building that wouldn’t allow any other translation.
I downloaded a TNIV before it was officially published and loved it then. It’s wonderful!
It’s saddens me to see that so many are quick to pick something apart, dechiper it, argue over it and even bringing shame to others regarding it. Is that the purpose of God’s Word?
I have several translations and paraphrases, and often go between them as I seek to understand the incredible richness of the Word. At Christmas, I received a TNIV/The Message parallel Bible. I love it. Oftentimes, our language gets in the way in trying to hear and understand the message of God. I guess that’s where the Holy Spirit steps in.
I agree with you whole heartedly. I’ve been using the NRSV (also gender-neutral) for a long time now, and I’d love to get my hands on a TNIV.
I have switched to the TNIV as my primary preaching Bible. Our local Christian bookstore doesn’t carry it because of the gender-inclusive language. Which is funny, because they have a HUGE selection of the New Living Translation, which also uses gender-inclusive language. And the only copy of the TNIV Barnes and Noble has is a crummy paperback version.
However, ChristianBook.com has a good selection.
Joyce, just like a woman to question masculinity:)
Martin F. ROFL
Here in Grand Rapids (home of Zondervan) I can even get a copy of the TNIV at the grocery store.
Sorry, Clint. Can’t help it.
Actually, I like masculinity. I’d be sad without men. I just wonder about God being considered the ultimate male.
Those who are interested in more detailed explorations of the TNIV and other translations might want to add the Better Bibles Blog to their regular reading list.
Sadly, these bookstore owners were probably tuned into the world-wide Focus on the Family Network program when their “scholars” bashed the TNIV for the gender issue. If it’s bad for Dr. Jim, it must be bad for them too. Good grief.
I thought a more interesting change than the gender words was the move away from the word “saints”. Since that word has taken on a much different meaning today than it had in scripture (due to the Catholic church), it has been replaced in the TNIV with phrases like “God’s people”, “the people of God”, or just “believers”. I understand the reasoning behind the change, but I’m not sure if I agree with it.
The entire text of the TNIV is available at their website, so people can check it out for themselves.
What a refreshing post, Mike! I have followed the campaign against the TNIV from the start and am deeply grieved by the tactics and misinformation which have been so widespread. I just linked to your post and blogged further on it, but and the post will appear tomorrow.
Keep telling the truth!
I take comfort with the thought of God being the ultimate male. Doesn’t make me feel like less of a child of God because I’m a woman. It makes me feel loved and secure. I really like men and really love some of them!
I think it’s odd to contemplate the male language being removed and replaced with female language. I’ve just never considered “Father” being a female. That is strange.
So many comments are raising another great issue — how we conceive of God as male. That’s another issue I’d like to write about. Is something significant lost if God is referred to as “Parent” instead of “Father”?
But let me make this clear: the TNIV has stuck with the predominantly male language when referring to God. It is incorrect to think that the translation came because of efforts at political correctness. It came because of good, solid principles of translation.
Well, my opinion is that Jesus called God his “Abba” meaning “Daddy” & not “Parent”, therefore, God will always be a male figure to me. However, I do believe that God also has ALL the feminine qualities to Him as well. Confusing, but if Jesus calls Him “Father”, then so will I.
Beaner, I am also not in favor of translating “Father” as “Parent.” My point today is that this isn’t what the TNIV has done. Thanks.
One thing I read about the original marketing push for the TNIV was that they wanted to get the Bible into the hands of people that do not read the Bible. Wow. What a concept. How can people not presently reading a Bible, now reading the Word ever be a bad thing? What would happen to them if they became a follower of Christ after just reading the TNIV? Is it not authentic? Do they need to then buy another mroe appropriate Bible?
“…in the same way that those of us with long memories marvel at all the fuss over the abandonment of ‘thees’ and ‘thous’ several decades ago.”
I wish! Good grief… in a lot of parts of the deep south, the KJV is STILL the only translation preferred/recommended (allowed!). Seriously… there are still so many of those kinds of hurdles to work around in order to bring some of these rural churches the health and life they lack. Such a mission field that few people have the patience for (myself included). I know I’m off topic… but I’ve dealt with things like this (things that most of us have been done with for decades!) since I’ve moved home. It’s a yucky situation.
And to chime in on the gender discussion (sorta), it’s more bothersome to me to think that we’ve lost a sort of reverence for God’s name and nature moreso than if we view him as male or female.
As always… great discussion from all. Mike, you draw some great commenters!
BAG says that Abba is the equivalent of o pater. In other words O Father–an emphatic form of address indicating great respect or awe. I’ve been told it is the rough equivalent of o pai in the traditional Portuguese family.
That means it does not approximate our “daddy” and is why as moderns we don’t use “daddy” to address God. However, in no way does this mean that we can’t have a deeply emotional connection to God, but that God holds the place of highest respect.
Peace.
I’m sure we all realize that God as “father” is just a metaphor. He really isn’t our literal “father”–there was no sex with mother. And like all metaphors, this one has its weaknesses, especially if one had a bad experience with their father (or both parents). There seems to be a lot of inherent problems with describing God anthropomorphically (giving God human qualities). God as “father”, “king”, “mother”, etc. don’t literally describe God. Our language totally limits us. I think we jump a HUGE hurdle in understanding God when we realize that our very understanding of God is limited by our vocabullary. We are really at a loss for words!
a side point - in some ancient texts, God is described as having very feminine attributes and body parts.
these descriptions seem to be less about nailing down God’s gender however. instead they appear to be utilized to illustrate the ways in which God interacts with the Christian community.
mike thank you for posting on this topic and clarifying things. i was in the service when the pastor made an offer to buy back any tniv’s saying that they were flawed and misleading. the whole talk was a little unnerving because there seemed to be a furthering of stereotypes that shouldnt dominate or even exist in the body of Christ. i felt that not liking violence and war imagery made me less ‘manly’ and that there were harsh words and phrases used in an attempt to illicit a cheap laugh. id love to come check out highland. it seems like a lot of great things are happening there.
Mike - thanks for clarifying that the TNIV maintains the masculinity of God. When you said “Is something significant lost if God is referred to as “Parent” instead of “Father”? I guess I answered “yes” with my previous comment, but now you’ve really got me thinking if it’s really because Jesus called Him that, or because that’s how I was raised to view Him. Thanks for always having something in here that challenges me & helps me to grow!
My understanding of God is not as apPARENT as I desire but I am thankful that my Father comforts as a mother comforts her child (Isaiah 60:13) and Jesus desires to gather chicks as a hen instead of a rooster (Matthew 23:37). Regarding translations/readability: my greatest difficulties come from things I clearly understand instead of unclear Heb/Grk words/meanings translated into English.
My children and I start our prayers each night with “Dear Father God” and I love it………………
Nice post!
pretty good translation.
many improvements made.
some still needed (which will always be the case).
b blessed
russ
Working with Bibles in other languages helped me understand some of the problem of getting a good translation even though I’m not well-versed in Greek or Hebrew. Sometimes, when going from an original language to a second (or third language) there is simply no way to express the original ideas without messing with the translation.
In Africa, we had to decide whether to use the Bible that said to be baptised (sprinkled) or the one that said to be baptised (drowned). In French, there was a huge discussion over whether we should use the formal or the informal form of “you” when addressing God.
Instead of looking at different translations as threats, perhaps we should look at them as man’s (or should I say human-kind’s) attempt to give the most accurate picture of the original. Instead of looking at the differences as carrying some hidden agenda, we can use them to enlighten us on the various meanings that are carried in the original texts. Verses that are translated differently are probably verses for which there is no perfect translation. The different versions of the Bible show us where translators have struggled to give us their best estimate of what the original word means.
Translation always has its challenges, but I always appreciate an effort to give better nuances.
I haven’t read the TNIV yet, but today’s discussion has intrigued me. Looking forward to a fresh look at God’s message.
The New Century Bible always says brothers and sisters, I’ve used that one for a long time. I got that new Archaeological Bible, small print and it weighs a ton, but I like it. Still drift back to the New Century when I study.
What’s at stake if God was referred to using the feminine language?
God is who he/she is regardless of what we conceive or think. I do not think God is waiting on the memo from the TNIV folks to get it right.
Otherwise God is just a product of a self aware mind.
Mike…the TNIV has blessed me personally and those I am honored to preach to on Sundays. Thanks for addressing some of the concerns about this wonderful new translation. I’d be curious to know your thoughts on the ESV.
In January I went to an exhibit in St. Petersburg, Florida that was titled Ink and Blood. One the best exhibits that I have been to….fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls, leaves from the Gutenberg Bible, a reproduction of what they thought that press looked like and story after story about those who fought to bring the Bible into the common languages of the world. Many lost their lives trying to bring the Bible to the common people. It is still scary to people to bring change to how the Bible is translated. I love that people are still being brave about this process.
So I see all that time spent learning Spanish has been of some use to you.
I remember well the 70’s when the NIV was savagely attacked at my church. Those were interesting days as a kid. I think that unfortunately the term “gender inclusive” is such a loaded term that if someone can successfully attach the term to the translation the damage has been done.
Wow, so many great comments on such a fabulous topic! Thanks, Mike for this forum.
I concur with your comment with regards to The Message. The day you posted this, my Bible study group began our study on Hosea. Well, when was the last time you read Hosea in The Message? Amongst some sweet little old English ladies (all tough as nuts because of The Blitz, and one about to turn 90!) I was asked to read Hosea 1 and 2. Why? Because they said that The Message had more dramatic zing when it was read with an American accent. ARGH!
Not too long ago a couple of us teachers surreptitiously used the NIV in our Bible classes at a private Christian school. As children were first introduced to the school – many from homes of non-churched or other-churched families – they were presented with their very own Bible, but it was a KJV. For a lot of these children, English was their second language. As it was in the early ‘80’s a couple of us teachers felt the NIV was more appropriate. I lived in mortal fear for about two semesters before the school administrators found out and subsequently blessed the decision.
Since that time, I have had my life blessed with the association of Wycliffe Bible translators. I spent more time recently with one translator at the Wycliffe centre here in the UK whose efforts are still focused with obscure tribes in the South Pacific. Once you spend time with these translators, quibbling becomes mere trivia.
On one of your Blog posts, Mike, you highly recommended TNIV. So I researched it, and tried to find out how to get it in the UK. Amazon.co.uk is still the best source. However, one of the comments above mentioned how Zondervan was marketing this latest attempt for those who would never or rarely read the Bible. Well, the offerings I saw of TNIV are very outwardly trendy packages. I’m all for trying to get people to read and study the Bible. I just have an issue when a marketing campaign launches a product that seems to dumb down such a stalwart best seller. I was hoping to locate a TNIV Study Bible. However Zondervan seem to want to aim this towards a non-academic market initially. The TNIV Study Bible will be out in October, I believe?
As to the issues of gender:
1. This seems to be an issue more with those who have not spent any time studying foreign languages and the cultures of these languages.
2. God made ALL of us in his image. When we finally get to see him, our studious and contentious definitions of all things masculine and all things feminine, and their validity within the glory of his kingdom, will be embarrassingly irrelevant. So until then, we need to embrace each other’s spiritual gifts and talents with more nobility and respect.
Thanks!
Mike–
Way to use the Spanish language, amigo!
I remember well when the NIV was savagely attacked in my congregation in 2005. The truly distressing element of the attack, which revealed it was not an attempt to preach the truth, was when an offer to preach about the weaknesses of the King James Version was greeted with horror and a curt refusal. More than half the congregation used the KJV, so it would have helped them more to hear about its weaknesses than that of a translation that they did not use. One of the deacons, who had used the NIV for twenty-five years and had been supervising Sunday School, left. I was teaching the auditorium class from the NIV, but was not consulted. I researched the attitudes of early restoration movement preachers towards the KJV while at Harding Graduate School. Almost all longed for a better translation. John Howard of Paris, Tennessee, was the only writer I could find who was a KJV only person. Tolbert Fanning thought it was the best available, but wanted something better. Alexander Campbell, Jacob Creath,Jr., and a host of other wrote in depth about the dangerous errors (thousands, they wrote) of the KJV. Yes, KJV only sentiment persists in parts of the Southeast. Why does it persist? When did this reversal of thought about the KJV begin? What do you think, Mike?
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