A couple weeks ago I said I’d write more on the issue of homosexuality soon. Since then I keep telling myself that I don’t have the time to write as thoughtfully and carefully as I want to. And I still don’t have the time. But, I’m going to throw out some thoughts anyway.
1. I don’t think very many people choose to be gay. I never chose to be straight. I just was. It just happened. And it’s the same way with those who are attracted to people of the same sex. They didn’t come down to a big decision at, say, age 16. For most of them, it was confusing, upsetting, mysterious. Most tried to pretend they didn’t have that attraction. They tried faking it, ignoring it, hiding it. Some even gave it the best try they could, went to a Christian college, married a good Christian person, and . . . remained attracted to people of the opposite sex.
2. I am pretty skeptical about most big “conversion” stories. Some think that it’s just a matter of repentence or prayer or exorcism or miraculous healing. And certainly our God is a big God and can do anything he wants. But I just haven’t seen many. I’ve known a few with powerful stories of being released partially or even completely from the struggle. But most have prayed, repented, struggled, counseled, hated themselves, and prayed more. No change. Not because they didn’t love God enough, not because they’re hardened sinners, not because they’re part of some movement to undermine family values.
3. Speaking of family values, I don’t buy the rhetoric that homosexuality is primarily responsible for tearing apart American families. That would be divorce. The breaking of promises by men and women in marriages is ripping apart our families. (On rare occasions, these promises are broken because one partner is leaving for someone else of the same sex. But that’s the exception.) The church must take seriously the words of discipleship on covenant keeping in marriage (e.g., Matthew 5:31-32), while showing compassion to those whose lives have been broken.
4. And speaking of compassion, where is it? Where does all this angry, hateful speech come from? When the Soulforce group was on ACU campus, they were amazed — stunned — that they were shown basic Christian compassion. How did we get to a place where that is surprising? Even here, there were flashes of what their lives are like. One ACU grad student had a sticker on to identify himself as one of the hosts. But after he delivered some students to a Sunday evening service, on the way out some students passed him, and thinking the ID meant he was a part of Soulforce said in a threatening tone, “F—ing fag.” All right, then. Have a good church service. Praise your little hearts out before the one who became flesh and dwelt among us, hanging out with the “tax collectors and sinners.”
5. It would help a lot if we could quit treating this like some special sin that deserves our fullest repulsion and rebuke. Sin is sin. When I read Ephesians 4-5, e.g., the sin that I hear spotlighted again and again is “greed.” But we’ve pretty much come to terms with that. A person can build bigger and bigger barns, they can participate fully in good old American consumerism (regardless of the consequences to the world), and we smile and congratulate them, hoping they’ll tithe. It would be so much easier for brothers and sisters struggling with same-sex attraction to face their temptations if they knew they were safe to share their inner lives with others. For a couple years, I led a group of guys in a weekly meeting. I was the only one who doesn’t struggle with it. Some were single; some were married. All were wanting a safe place where they could seek purity. All said that there is no way they could share this struggle before their elders, among their friends, or in their Bible classes without being completely ostracized and cut off. They knew from experience. And yet these were some of the best men I’ve ever met. They didn’t ask to be gay, didn’t want to be gay, had tried everything possible to be released from the temptation. But they all said that the most powerful resource to them was the care and compassion of other men in a group like that. Being with other men in a safe environment, they told me, made them less tempted — not more.
6. But that isn’t to ignore homosexuality as sin. While I think there are some powerful things being written about the hermeneutics involved — challenging things that we must address — I still believe scripture makes it clear that God intends for sexual relationships to be enjoyed between a man and a woman in marriage. (For what seems to me to be a convincing case, see Richard Hays, The Moral Vision of the New Testament; Stanley Grenz, Welcoming But Not Affirming, and William Webb, Slaves, Women, and Homosexuals.) It isn’t a sin to be a homosexual (in orientation — something we don’t choose); but homosexual behavior is wrong. As Hays writes, “The biblical witness against homosexual practices is univocal.” One’s stance against homosexual behavior doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with homophobic feelings.
7. The church should not endorse homosexual marriages, but should advocate (out of justice and compassion) for full civil rights for gay couples. Just because we may not endorse another person’s decisions doesn’t mean we don’t advocate for their protection and civil rights. Here people try to make comparisons with the endorsement of all lifestyles — as if our protection of civil rights for gays means that we need to protect the civil rights of pedophiliacs. Fortunately, most lawmakers see through that smoke.
8. Does this endorsement of heterosexual sex in marriage put a special, unfair burden on those who are gay in their orientation? This is from Hays: “Here a nuanced answer must be given. While Paul regarded celibacy as a charisma, he did not therefore suppose that those lacking the charisma were free to indulge their sexual desires outside marriage. Heterosexually oriented persons are also called to abstinence from sex unless they marry (1 Cor. 7:8-9). The only difference — admittedly a salient one — in the case of homosexually oriented persons is that they do not have the option of homosexual ‘marriage.’ So where does that leave them? It leaves them in precisely the same situation as the heterosexual who would like to marry but cannot find an appropriate partner (and there are many such): summoned to a difficult, costly obedience, while ‘groaning’ for the ‘redemption of our bodies’ (Rom. 8:23). Anyone who does not recognize this as a description of authentic Christian existence has never struggled seriously with the imperatives of the gospel, which challenge and frustrate our ‘natural’ impusles in countless ways. Much of the contemporary debate turns on this last point. Many of the advocates of unqualified acceptance of homosexuality seem to be operating with a simplistic anthropology that assumes whatever is must be good: they have a theology of creation but no theology of sin and redemption.”
9. Is there a place for gays and lesbians in church? Absolutely. While we continue to advocate the biblical view of sexuality (abstinence outside of marriage and faithfulness inside of marriage), we recognize that we are a gathering of stumbling, bumbling seekers of Christ.
From Hays: “Can homosexual persons be members of the Christian church? This is rather like asking, ‘Can envious persons be members of the church?’ (cf. Rom. 1:29) or ‘Can alcoholics be members of the church?’ De facto, of course, they are. Unless we think that the church is a community of sinless perfection, we must acknowledge that persons of homosexual orientation are welcome along with other sinners in the company of those who trust in the God who justifies the ungodly (Rom. 4:5). If they are not welcome, I will have to walk out the door along with them, leaving in the sanctuary only those entitled to cast the first stone.”
From Grenz: “Even if we find such liaisons questionable, we might nevertheless assert that the church ought to minister to, and even provide a spiritual home for, homosexual persons. Regardless of the moral status of homosexual behavior, lesbians and gays are people whom God values, for whom Jesus died, and to whom the gospel must come. Further, the church is composed of sinners — redeemed sinners to be sure — but sinners nonetheless. It consists of people who are seeking to do God’s will in the midst of the brokenness of life. The church can only assist people to overcome sin and live in obedience to God if they receive the ministry of, and perhaps even participate in, the believing community. This is as true for gays and lesbians as for anyone else. . . . The church, therefore, ought not only to minister to all but also to welcome all into membership on the same basis. And this basis consists of personal reception of salvation by faith through Jesus Christ together with personal commitment to discipleship. At the same time, participation in the faith community involves a give-and-take. Discipleship demands that each member understand that he or she is accountable to the community in all dimensions of life, including the sexual. As one homosexual believer wrote to Richard Hays, ‘Anyone who joins such a community should know that it is a place of transformation, of discipline, of learning, and not merely a place to be comforted or indulged.’ Because it is a community of discipleship, the church in turn has a responsibility both to nurture and also to admonish and discipline the wayward in its midst, including those who are not living in sexual chastity, whatever the exact nature of the unchaste behavior may be.”
10. To me this isn’t first and foremost an “issue.” I’m writing about people I know and love. I want them to be safe enough to share their inner struggles; I want their wisdom through years of suffering to be shared with the church. I hope their triumphs can be offered as a witness to the power of the Spirit and their failings to be offered as a reminder that there is a serious dimension of “not yet” that the church tends to ignore. I want to be able to have them hear the words “go and sin no more,” and I want to be able to receive from them the same admonition, for my life is so full of shortcomings.
You are right, sin is sin. Just because I don’t struggle with that particular one doesn’t mean I don’t struggle. Greed grips the American church with a strangle hold and yet we don’t say much about it. Compassion is indicated. We need to love the soul and fight to win the battle against Satan that is waged in the hearts and lives of our fellow strugglers.
My hat is off to you, dear Mike, for the courage to say these things. I just lost a dear friend who struggled with this issue all her life. She died, never able to overcome her attraction for other women, but she was able to overcome acting on the temptation. That’s all I’m able to do with sin in my life. I’m not attracted to my same sex, but I do have sin that is so attractive to me that I have to work each day to keep it at bay.
I would think homosexual lust is not unlike heterosexual lust……except heterosexuals usually have a mate to love them through their problems. Homosexuals, trying to resist the sin, most often are bearing the burden alone
Very sobering and nonetheless charitable thoughts. I am really glad to see church leaders and institutions like ACU offering such a rich, thoughtful attitude and discourse.
I think homosexuality, like all greed, envy and the rest, needs to be examined as an issue of image bearing. Humans were designed to bear God’s image. Sin distorts or destroys His image in us. I think this is ultimately why homosexuality is sinful, as are the others, no matter how moral, committed or devoted to fidelity with one partner.
Likewise, I think we bear images in our response to those who struggle with sin. Whose image will we bear? A shepherd seeking lost sheep? An accuser? Something in between?
Thanks for this post.
Shalom
Thanks for your words of insight. Compassion, Love and Truth….I think I have read that in the Bible, maybe even more than once. It seems like people have a way of picking and choosing who compassion and love go to , but the truth, without the love and compassion, is easily heaped upon everyone.
The homosexuals leading this “charge”, Mike, don’t want to hear “Go, and sin no more.”
Remember, most don’t feel it is a sin.
They want full acceptance, along with the equal rights, etc.
Also, someone made the argument a while back: How could God create people with this orientation, basically setting them up to be tested daily?
When I lived in Nashville, I had a good friend who was thoroughly into the homosexual lifestyle. He told me during one intense conversation, “The last place I would confess this is among the church, Josh!” Sadly, an anonymous sex park, bar, or chat room offered more hospitality than the church instituted by the God who came to liberate humanity from the powers of sin.
Mike, there are very few people in our tribe who are brave enough to write what you’ve written. Our tribe needs to get off the fence (or come over to another side) and be proactive to advocate love, justice, and mercy for all under the guise of sin.
I’m convinced that our children will ask me one day, “You were so passionate about racial reconciliation dad…why did you not make the connection to the way homosexuals are treated by conservative Christians?”
Mike - God has graced you with the ability to profoundly write/speak things we need to hear. Thanks.
Mike,
Regarding “conversion stories,” what about Dennis Jernigan? What is your opinion of “Reparative Therapy?”
Thank you for a great post!
Mike, I agree with everything you’ve said so far. I would like to take it one step further, if I could. I believe that Jesus was tempted in EVERY way, which must include homosexuality as well as pride, greed, lust, etc. etc. Can we be tempted by something that has no human appeal to it? What I’m saying is that to RESIST temptation, the temptation must first be appealing. Am I making sense?
Mike-
Amazing post. I have been waiting to see what you would say on this and you have not dissapointed. God has indeed given you a great gift of wisdom and discernment. Could you send me your e-mail when you get a chance? I have something I wrote on this issue a few weeks ago that I want to share with you. Blessings.
Chris
I’m just confused about why God puts us in these animal-like bodies and then expects us to act god-like.
Thanks for these words of encouragement to be graceful and compassionate. I have a nephew who has chosen this lifestyle and being that brother-in-law was a minister of the cofc, he has been banned from the family. I have struggled more than one night in trying to decipher from scripture, from other and from my own knowledge what is right and wrong.
These words are helping in that discovery.
I do have a problem when I know of several young people who were “lulled” into believing they were homosexual when there had been no evidence of this struggle before that time. They chose to “try it out”, “experiement” and see what all the buzz is about. This is where I have my most struggle. I think young people are experiementing and staying in that situation because they like it after all. Sin is always fun when you have feelings you want and like!
Again, thanks for your words and I look forward to hearing more about your thoughts and others as well.
“To me this isn’t first and foremost an “issue.” I’m writing about people I know and love.” I think that’s the key to showing compassion right there. I admit that homosexuality has always been an “issue” to me probably because I don’t know anyone personally who struggles with it. Or else I don’t know they struggle with it. And that’s an indictment on me.
Once again, you blow me away with your insight and writing.
Chris - Just sent it to you.
Martin - An excellent question that must be wrestled with as we work through issues like creation, fall, sin, redemption, and new creation.
David - I don’t doubt the Jernigan story at all. Thanks for mentioning it. I’ve known lots and lots of people, however, who have prayed, confessed, gone through therapy (including the best “reparative therapy” available), etc. — and who never experienced any freedom from the struggle. Don’t many of us have similar stories with other struggles? We’ve prayed and prayed for release and change, but old battles continue to return?
Also, the weekly time you were able to spend with those men really says alot about their trust in you. I wonder how those meetings came about that the guys ever connected with each other and you in the first place? How could churches or individuals develop these kinds of relationships when noone is talking about it?
Powerful words. Words from a devoted seeker of God and His mysterious grace. Thanks Mike. I think I would even go so far as to say, homosexuality is not the only sexual issue that we have a hard time with. At least here in Colorado, we are unwilling to even address the issue, for reasons I’m obviously unaware of. But, any other sexual sin, you better go ahead and lay yourself on the chopping block. There is no “comfortable, safe” place with any of those struggles. Pornography, adultery, to name a couple. How can we get it through our heads that people caught in sexual sin are not any worse off than than me, or the other average lay person warming a seat? You’re right, sin is sin. Why do we feel like we need to make people feel like horrible, awful, unforgivable people when it comes to sexual sin, but the greedy, lying, destructive people walk scott-free? Isn’t there something wrong here, or is it just me? God’s grace seems to cover a whole lot more than just the occasional white lie and skipping church every once in a while. How do we shift the thought process of an entire demographic?
Mike
Thank you for putting so gracefully and generously into words that which I have believed and strived to practice in my walk with Christ. I believe it is a shamefully unbalanced standard that many Christians hold over those of homosexual orientation (including myself perhaps for a time), as opposed to those “more comfortable” sins we all struggle with everyday. I truly pray for the day to come when devoted Christians, gay and lesbian in orientation, lead the way in publicly acknowledged, church-funded and backed small groups that cater to the specific needs of those struggling with homosexuality. We must be willing to run to everyone with open arms and hearts - like in parable of the Prodigal Son - overlooking their flaws while helping them to overcome struggles, and showing them that better way that Christ brought to us. Thanks again!
Overall a great post and I agree with the overall direction and course it sets. However when you wrote…
“I am pretty skeptical about most big “conversion” stories.” I was floored.
Is not the idea of conversion at the very heart of Christianity? Does not your statement cast doubt upon God’s ability to change people? If we don’t believe in the power of conversion then who will? Does this not argue that the sin of homosexuality is more powerful than God’s ability to convert and change?
Elijah lived in a time when conversions were few and he though himself alone but he was not. God had preserved a few. Perhaps your point was that we live in such a time?
I know you believe in the power of the gospel to save. It is at the very heart of what Christianity is all about. There is no hope for me and my sins, or you and your sins if there is not sufficient power in Christ to convert. I have to believe in it. We have to believe in it. It is our only hope.
Mike
I have always thought of myself as being “permissive” when it came to my stand on Homosexuality. With the deepest conviction I have known that I do not agree with many of my church family but I have not been able to articulate what I do believe. I have one friend in particular that is gay and has challenged me to think beyond myself. Today you have given words and life to what I believe and feel and I am grateful for that. Thank you.
As a second comment I would share this story…
One evening an old Cherokee Indian told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people. He said, “My son, the battle is between two ‘wolves’ inside us all. One is evil. It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, hatred, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.
The other is good. It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith.”
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, “Which wolf wins?”
The old man simply replied, “The one you feed.”
(Author Unknown)
Overcoming any sin, not just homosexuality, is difficult. The principle in overcoming, however, is laid out above. The wolf inside that you feed is the one that will prevail. If we walk after the Spirit then that is what will prevail. If we walk after the flesh then that is what will prevail.
“Just because we may not endorse another person’s decisions doesn’t mean we don’t advocate for their protection and civil rights.” I was wondering if you could elaborate on the civil rights you are mentioning. Thank you.
So you believe that the temptation to be gay is simply that? A fleshly temptation? Are you putting this is the same area of for example, the tempation to abuse drugs? Some people are just more tempted than others while it isn’t even a issue for even more others?
“Don’t many of us have similar stories with other struggles? We’ve prayed and prayed for release and change, but old battles continue to return?”
Yes. And far from suggesting that that reality releases us from the need to pray and struggle for deliverance, we ought in every kind of bondage - including this one - to redouble our struggle in prayer to receive the grace of release from it.
Still, it’s worth noting that in many other spheres of real living, authors like Dallas Willard are urging us to view spiritual transformation at its deepest level of manifestation, the level of *orientation*. We strive, to paraphrase Willard, not only to avoid doing bad stuff, but also to become the kind of people who do naturally the things Jesus said to do, the kind of people who have been freed from the automatic responses and tendencies that characterized our former lives. We seek to replace old instincts with new instincts; old orientations with new ones. So it seems to me that we should not simply resign ourselves, or others’ selves, to certain orientations, no matter what they are. And if God in His sovereignty elects not to set us free from the orientation, even despite an heroic struggle against it, then we must learn the attitude of Paul in II Corinthians toward his thorn in the flesh.
Now: why would it be any different with a homosexual orientation?
qb
O My — I don’t have time for this today. Unlike, evidently, the rest of you, I’m not a “Super-Blogger.”
(Note: I’ve not read any responses past the first one.)
Mike says of the group he led: “All said that there is no way they could share this struggle before their elders, among their friends, or in their Bible classes without being completely ostracized and cut off. ”
I say: Does that include those of us who aren’t so sure it’s a sin? Will people be understanding of that? I’m not so sure!
Mike says: “While I think there are some powerful things being written about the hermeneutics involved . . .”
I say: Isn’t that the same “hermeneutic” that says I can be a minister?
Just don’t have time — hopefully this conversation can go on a few days.
vtc - Yes, I assume people who disagree with me on this are welcome in our communion — but I think you’re right to question whether or not that would always be the case. And I guess at this point, I’d say “no”–I don’t think it’s the same hermeneutical principles (agreeing here with Hays, Grenz, and Webb — all of whom are egalitarians but who believe that homosexual behavior is a sin).
By the way, there may be lots of discussion about this, and I don’t have a lot of time to keep monitoring comments through this week. Not because I’m not interested. Just much going on. Will try to drop in at times.
Mike,
I am glad you blogged on this today. I feel that if a homosexual were to start coming to the church I attend, he would not be fully welcomed by most and that is a sad thing. Many put on blinders to the homosexuals in our communities and choose to ignore them and instead only help those that they feel more comfortable around. It’s time we share Christ’s love with all people, regardless of the sin they struggle with, for we all struggle with sin in our lives, and who among us wouldn’t want someone to help us with those struggles?
First, let me apologize for the annonymity. The fear of retribution from speaking of unpopular views on this issue is enough that I’d rather not identify myself.
Mike, the attitude and nuance with which you hold your position is to be commended. If I disagree with you, which it seems everyday I come closer to doing, I can very much respect your position and the way you communicate it.
I just have a few thoughts. I leave the theology, the exegesis, and the hermeneutics to the theologians. I don’t claim expertise.
I’m deeply troubled with this issue. In fact, it’s caused me to deeply question the way we understand scripture. More and more, it seems clear that there are a number of scriptural directives that we deem unnecessary to follow.
For example:
Homosexuality is bad (Leviticus 18:22) but it’s okay to ignore Leviticus 19:33-34 as we deal with immigration.
Homesexuality is bad! But the prohibitions in Leviticus 19 are find to break.
Checked your shirt today to make sure it’s not a blend?
How about the bizarre sexual ethics of the Old Testament? While some verses seem to assume rather “loose” (no pun intended) sexual ethics, other verses get quite specific about things not to be done. My favorite is Leviticus 20:18.
Perhaps some of us would find this distasteful. But sinful? Worthy of “being cut off”?
And then we get to the really difficult. Things like Numbers 31:1-24. Annihilation of your enemy. Slaughter of the people, burning down their land. And keeping the young girls for yourself.
I’m not trying to ridicule the Bible or throw it out. I love the book. I’m saying that we already use some judgement to identify things that were perhaps cultural and strongly related to the time in which they were written.
One cannot simply read the Bible and follow it like a penal code. (And I know that many people here don’t).
So what is it about homosexuality?
I’m in complete, 100% agreement with sexual boundaries. Somehow, miracuously, I remained completely pure (sexually) until I got married. The world can laugh and ridicule. It’s the greatest decision and blessing I’ve ever had.
I’m not suggesting that homosexuals get a pass. I really think they’re under the same instruction. If they can’t find someone to marry, then just like a heterosexual, their responsibility, their calling is to embrace their singleness and serve the Lord.
But what I keep coming back to is that everytime you turn around, God’s law, God’s book, instructs people in ways that are for their own good.
Abstaining from sex before marriage may seem like foolishness to the world, but the reality is that you simply cannot experience the love and joy of sex by giving it away before a loving committment of marriage.
I see the good in that command from God. What is the destructive nature of homosexual sex (within marriage, and with the same sexual ethics and boundaries that heterosexual Christians practice)?
I’ve talked about this with a number of very smart people, but no one has even advanced an idea much deeper than “the Bible says it.” People my grind their teeth and spit on the ground, but that’s not good enough for me. (In the same way the Bible says don’t cross bread animals, but I’ll take a trip to the bottom of the Grand Canyon on a mule without feeling sinful). I am committed to submitting myself to God’s call, to His church. But if I am to remain the least bit sane, I will not stop thinking, weighing, and striving as I do it.
Finally, one of the things that troubles me most… Putting forward the view that homosexuals are to remain celibate within the church. I would never try to convince a homosexual who wanted to remain celibate as a response to God’s call, to do otherwise!
But for those who do not wish to do this, how can you tell them that’s they’re only option? I dare say, boldly say in fact, that greater than 99% of any Christian community would not happily give up marriage to join the church. We spew a great deal of rhetoric that the church is more important than our families. But I think most people see straight through the hypocrisy of happily married Christians telling homosexuals, “tough luck. Enjoy your life alone if you want to join the church.”
So I’ve ranted. I’ve really tried to say what I’ve been thinking for years now, without angrily denouncing anyone’s views, or most importantly, attacking people who feel differently.
I’m glad a conversation is started. At the very least, talking about it and hearing different views is probably an extremely healthy thing.
Mike, this is off topic, sort of. Maybe not if you tilt you head just right. Being so close (relatively speaking) to the southern border, I’d love to hear what you believe a grace-filled approach to the current illegal immigration debate is.
I’m more than a little weary of people informing their views solely from such deep theologians as Hannity, Limbaugh, Hillary and Franken.
Mike- Great thoughts on a subject most are afraid of. When you get in the area of “conversion stories” we all get in some non-obsolute territory that is much informed by our experiences. I would venture to say that God has done a whole lot more “radical conversions” than we realize. Being a singles minister , in Dallas, in the 90’s, in a church that did minister too, reach out, accept and bring healing to men with this struggle, and I saw some “powerful conversions” there. (Lake Highlands Church) Interestingly enough, that is also were I experienced “instrumental praise” for the first time, with none other than Dennis Jernigan. ( the DJ part is the interesting aside)
I guess too, the stories that we call “radical” conversion implies that after conversion there is never any temptation towards previous life sinful behavior. If that is true, there have not been many radical conversions.
Maybe our definition is wrong. I do know this, we would do well to let God’s word define His Expectations towards Kingdom living and the power therein, rather than our enemic experiences. Maybe we would be a lot more accepting of sins we don’t understand and a lot less blind to the things that consume us. Like consumerism and materialism. Maybe our conversions would appear more “radical”. Maybe we do have a form of Godliness but are denying some power.
Thank you for your heart. God uses you mightily.
To statement #3
I am struggling here…….Why have we as the church “accepted” divorce. Sorry to say but we have and we HAVE NOT taken a stand. As to why I’m struggling, I worship with a relative who left a family member of mine for another MARRIED man. She has since married twice and now is an “upstanding” member of our church in the eyes of many. She ruined her family. Is this OK? I understand we are all sinners BUT God demands a repentant heart. If you divorce because you cheated…..are you OK in your new marriage and the marriage after that???? Again, I’m a sinner and I struggle….but this one is a hard one to bite off and chew. A sin and a repentant heart to stop that sin is different than living in sin….right??????
BTW– anyone watch last night on “The Ten Commandments ” what God allowed Moses to do to those who refused him? He wiped out nations for not following “his law”.
I’ve never posted on this blog but read it all the time. I felt it necessary to comment though as this subject has affected me personally.
First, excellent comments. Mike, you speak the truth in love. While a student at ACU, I went to Highland all 4 years and was definitely fed.
Second, as far as the “reparative therapy” goes, it must be done right. I came across Exodus International when seeking help and found a local ministry that has literally changed my life. I too don’t buy the instant conversion stories. Do you know of anyone that was instantly delivered from alcohol and drugs? Yes they may have never touched it, but sometimes when triggered their desires became stronger. The alcoholic who quit 20 years ago still sometimes desires a drink. Probably not as much as they did 19 or 15 years ago, but each day it becomes less. This is the same with those seeking to walk out of homosexuality. What about gossip? For someone that has repented of that, is the desire still there? I think so. Even though we may be forgiven of our sins, our brokenness still shows and we are in constant need of help.
An excellent article written by an Exodus Affiliated ministry in the DFW area is titled “The 16 keys to Recovery.” (From the Living Hope Ministries Website)
http://www.livehope.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=122&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
I’m so thankful the church is finally beginning to address the elephant in the middle of the room and what to do about it. I certainly never chose to have these feelings, but at the same time I know I was not born this way. Through a number of experiences in my childhood this desire was developed.
Praise God for various recovery ministries (or sometimes called “ex-gay” ministries). I’ve seen so many people walk out of homosexuality. Just like anything else, its a process. Instant healing doesn’t occur. If you are interested in learing more about this process or what to do when someone you know struggles, I would reccomend contacting Exodus International for a local ministry. Additionally, I would reccomend one of the many books that address this issue and recovery. (any book by Joe Dallas, Alan Medinger, Sy Rogers, Mike Haley) Their books and many others can be found from the Regeneration Books website.
Regeneration Books website… https://regenbooks.com/
Thank you Mike for talking about a subject that has been taboo for so long.
Mike (and others), a few questions of a practical matter:
- You note that being gay is not necessarily sinful, but the homosexual behavior is the actual sin…how would you define the behavior? One thing that made me think of this is that when we talk about fully accepting homosexuals in the church, how would you, as the pastor at HCC handle a gay couple attending together and, say, holding hands? What if they were not actually having sex, but were physically affectionate, like many heterosexuals, in public and in the church? When my wife and I worship together I’m often moved to touch her softly on her arm or her hair…how would this go over at Highland with a gay couple? And, if you are comfortable with this type of behavior, then where would you draw the line? In other words, when does one cross that mysterious line from simply being gay to actually sinning?
- As for gay marriage, my impression is that the church will never have credibility with the gay community as long as we take such a strong stand against it. We could argue another time about whether or not a church should seek credibility, but let’s stipulate for now. I can think of many things that are “sinful” but I do not think there should be law or public policy prohibitions against it (marital infidelity, greed, lust, sloth, envy, etc.). These are things better left out of the hands of the state.
Thank you, Mike.
Regarding “conversion” stories, I tend to be a little skeptic, too. However, struggling and suffering seems to be part of the human experience, and God doesn’t heal everyone. You can pray for a loved one to be healed of cancer until you’re blue in the face, but it doesn’t mean they will be. Similarly, I may pray earnestly for the redmption of my desires, but it might not happen for me. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen for others, such as DJ.
So where does this leave me? I may struggle with homosexuality the rest of my life. I don’t know, but it definately in the realm of possibility at this point. I won’t stop praying.
An aside: Based on what you said about those who marry anyway, a danger is a false sense of healing or a false sense of duty. I think we must encouraged to be constantly honest with ourselves. Let’s not leave room for a family to be torn apart by my struggle. I know of two families too many where the kids are left with their heads spinning, because the fathers can no longer live with a family that embodies the lie they tell the world. Though, obviously, as you said, this not the reason for the vast majority of divorces.
Mike, thank you so much for your insight. May we redeem our compassion for those we tend to marginalize.
Mike, knowing how visible you are, it is humbling to know you are willing to address this discussion for all to see and read. More than that, I appreciate your Christ-like approach in this discussion. That’s not surprising, because that is how you approach everything.
DU
Mike,
bless you for bringing this subject out into the sunshine of discussion, study and prayer. Too long the whole Christian fellowship has forced those struggling with same sex attraction into the shadows, have pushed them out of fellowship with others. It’s about time we say, “How dare we limit God’s grace to those acceptable and forgiveable sins?” [at least those WE have decided are forgiveable]
Jesus will challenge us about the cup of water we’ve extended or have denied to those needing His refreshment. He didn’t tell us to choose only those that we find acceptable, nor the agreeable, nor the likeable. His judgment will be on us if we continue to deny that cup of refreshement to those struggling with whatever their sin of choice may be.
I must admit, however, to my own struggle with your point #7, Mike.
Would we not be advocating, supporting, homosexual activities if we were to advocate a civil union for homosexual couples? What would be the tacit understanding if churches were to support civil unions? Would not the same sexual activities take place in a civil union as in a marriage? As I said, I’m having difficulty with this one.
One of my life desires is to see the day anyone with any struggle can come through the open doors of our churches, openly share where they are struggling, and be welcomed without judgment, just with love and help to overcome their problems and struggles.
For instance, I wonder how comfortable one with HIV or AIDS would feel about openly sharing their illness and its pain with our congregations?
When will we be able to internalize and live “ALL have sinned and fallen short…” and “…that I might draw ALL men to me…”
amen mike on all points, wait does that make me a liberal?
lee - don’t you think there’s a difference in God giving moses permission to wipe out a nation, or God wiping out a nation himself, and us acting on God’s behalf to do the task for him (many times without his calling)? can you really claim that the common Christian response (via James Dobson, Jerry Falwell, etc) is really God-ordained?
i mean, i think of all these churches who promote hateful, anti-christian actions against the GBLT community. (look at godhatesfags.com for an example.) perhaps these communities think they are moses - but i just can’t make that connection.
“I hope their triumphs can be offered as a witness to the power of the Spirit and their failings to be offered as a reminder that there is a serious dimension of “not yet” that the church tends to ignore. “
Amen. I was blessed to be with Ty at Lake Highlands for a few years and learned so much. I’ve also spent significant time in the Theatre world where I was always in the minority as a heterosexual man.
It was in the theatre that I discovered when you do life with people and get into community with them (church is a good place for that) regardless of their sin, your disdain turns to pain on their behalf.
Any fear I had about this particular issue was wiped away AND I was able to share my beliefs (and really be heard) because I started with “Love your neighbor” and confession of my own sin.
I am ashamed to say that I ignored homosexuals for years. I didn’t want to deal with the reality of their situation. All the while I was in my own pig pen of sin.
Thanks Mike. For your words and your courage.
I wansn’t even talking about Homosexuality in my post. I was talking about divorce in respsonse to Mike’s statement #3. When I brought up Moses I was just asking if anyone saw it and how powerful it was.
BTW–anyone care to comment on my DIVORCE question?
Mike,
I believe you are the bravest “preacher guy” I have ever known. It speaks to the authenticity of you love for Christ, people in general, and the call to be salt and light. While I agree with almost everything you said here, it seems much harder to put all this into action in everyday life. This does seem to be a big issue on the horizon.
I know several dear friends whose lives have been ripped apart by this. Parents, kids, brothers and sisters. It is HARD to know what to do out of love without feeling like you are endorsing or approving sin. Most of the those I know who are homosexuals don’t see it as a sin. Yes, they should be given civil rights, but the right to marry in same sex marriages and adopt children? Wow that’s hard. I don’t feel wise enough to make that call.
With individuals I know who are gay, I personally try my best to be loving and understanding, while not condemning or condoning. Somehow that just doesn’t seem to be enough. We as Christians brothers and sisters really need to help each other through this one and not be afraid to have these discussions. Thank you for this dialogue.
I am curious to the civil rights question as well. Are you endorsing quotas or recommending that people who run a “Christian” institution / business will not have the right to use sexual orientation as a screening tool for hiring / firing?
[I tried sending this at 9:11am this morning. It got sucked up by the moderation. I'm trying again. please feel free to delete if the first comment gets approved.]
First, let me apologize for the annonymity. The fear of retribution from speaking of unpopular views on this issue is enough that I’d rather not identify myself.
Mike, the attitude and nuance with which you hold your position is to be commended. If I disagree with you, which it seems everyday I come closer to doing, I can very much respect your position and the way you communicate it.
I just have a few thoughts. I leave the theology, the exegesis, and the hermeneutics to the theologians. I don’t claim expertise.
I’m deeply troubled with this issue. In fact, it’s caused me to deeply question the way we understand scripture. More and more, it seems clear that there are a number of scriptural directives that we deem unnecessary to follow.
For example:
Homosexuality is bad (Leviticus 18:22) but it’s okay to ignore Leviticus 19:33-34 as we deal with immigration.
Homesexuality is bad! But the prohibitions in Leviticus 19 are fine to break.
Checked your shirt today to make sure it’s not a blend?
How about the bizarre sexual ethics of the Old Testament? While some verses seem to assume rather “loose” (no pun intended) sexual ethics, other verses get quite specific about things not to be done. My favorite is Leviticus 20:18.
Perhaps some of us would find this distasteful. But sinful? Worthy of “being cut off”?
And then we get to the really difficult. Things like Numbers 31:1-24. Annihilation of your enemy. Slaughter of the people, burning down their land. And keeping the young girls for yourself.
I’m not trying to ridicule the Bible or throw it out. I love the book. I’m saying that we already use some judgement to identify things that were perhaps cultural and strongly related to the time in which they were written.
One cannot simply read the Bible and follow it like a penal code. (And I know that many people here don’t).
So what is it about homosexuality?
I’m in complete, 100% agreement with sexual boundaries. Somehow, miracuously, I remained completely pure (sexually) until I got married. The world can laugh and ridicule. It’s the greatest decision and blessing I’ve ever had.
I’m not suggesting that homosexuals get a pass. I really think they’re under the same instruction. If they can’t find someone to marry, then just like a heterosexual, their responsibility, their calling is to embrace their singleness and serve the Lord.
But what I keep coming back to is that everytime you turn around, God’s law, God’s book, instructs people in ways that are for their own good.
Abstaining from sex before marriage may seem like foolishness to the world, but the reality is that you simply cannot experience the love and joy of sex by giving it away before a loving committment of marriage.
I see the good in that command from God. What is the destructive nature of homosexual sex (within marriage, and with the same sexual ethics and boundaries that heterosexual Christians practice)?
I’ve talked about this with a number of very smart people, but no one has even advanced an idea much deeper than “the Bible says it.” People my grind their teeth and spit on the ground, but that’s not good enough for me. (In the same way the Bible says don’t cross bread animals, but I’ll take a trip to the bottom of the Grand Canyon on a mule without feeling sinful). I am committed to submitting myself to God’s call, to His church. But if I am to remain the least bit sane, I will not stop thinking, weighing, and striving as I do it.
Finally, one of the things that troubles me most… Putting forward the view that homosexuals are to remain celibate within the church. I would never try to convince a homosexual who wanted to remain celibate as a response to God’s call, to do otherwise!
But for those who do not wish to do this, how can you tell them that’s they’re only option? I dare say, boldly say in fact, that greater than 99% of any Christian community would not happily give up marriage to join the church. We spew a great deal of rhetoric that the church is more important than our families. But I think most people see straight through the hypocrisy of happily married Christians telling homosexuals, “tough luck. Enjoy your life alone if you want to join the church.”
So I’ve ranted. I’ve really tried to say what I’ve been thinking for years now, without angrily denouncing anyone’s views, or most importantly, attacking people who feel differently.
I’m glad a conversation is started. At the very least, talking about it and hearing different views is probably an extremely healthy thing.
Ooops.
this paragraph needs some editing.
“For instance, I wonder how comfortable one with HIV or AIDS would feel about openly sharing [about] their illness and its [attendant] pain with our congregations?”
Homosexual marriage…advocation? No way. It is hard for me to get to a point of supporting a social vehicle for living in sin. I have to disagree with “Hays” — How can you advocate giving those struggling with homosexuality an option for their ‘groaning’ (i.e. - sex inside of marriage)?
Oh, and I agree with you on all other points, Mike. Praise God for your wisdom and willingness to spread the Gospel.
Mike,
On the church side - It’s refreshing to hear someone have a loving response to homosexuality without rationalizing away the sin. Thank you.
On the political side - I might differ with you on the civil rights issue, but I’m unsure since your description of it was short. I believe that homosexuals should have exactly the same civil rights as you or I (without redefining marriage), but nothing beyond that. There shouldn’t be recognition as a minority group or special treatment in the eyes of our government.
I appreciate your willingness to be candid about difficult issues in such a public forum.
Many readers may be surprised of Dr. James Dobson’s statements regarding homosexuality. Focus is very loving towards the homosexual community. For more information, go to family.org website and type homosexuality in their search engine.
One of the main reasons that Dr. Dobson gets labeled as a “hatemonger” is because of radical secular groups like ACT UP. This group and others have done all kinds of evil against Focus on the Family including destruction of property, leaving bloody animals animals around their campus, and spreading rumors and lies about Focus.
Mike,
Great post! It amazes me everytime I read from you and the other amazing brothers and sisters here the amount of wisdom that you all have. I felt like cheering when I finished reading your blog today, not because I am homosexual or because it affects me but because its EXACTALLY what the message of love is ment to be. Look at Christ, he was with sinners so much of the time, calling them to walk in a better way of life so that they can not only live, but live ABUNDANTLY! The call of the cross shows us many things, submission, how to suffer, but so important the call of the cross shows us compassion. I never made the choice to be straight it was innate in my nature, I struggle with so many sins all of which make me fall short of the glory of God. There is no difference, straight and gay, we ALL sin and fall short of the glory of God.
Wow. I can’t IMAGINE what you would have written with “more time”!! Thanks for that, Mike.
Mike
Fabulous, kind and wise insight. Inspired, even.
Kelly, please listen to James Dobson before you group him with Jerry Falwell. Dobson has been an easy target for many, and though I do not always agree with his stance on everything, he has offered encouragement to many over the years. I think he has had much of what he says twisted and spun. When I have heard him speak, he generally comes across with kindness and compassion. He is not perfect, but I do not believe he is the religious right wacko that many make him out to be without honestly listening to him, but by relying on edited sound bites, and others’ opinions.
Sorry, Mike, as you probably do not echo these sentiments, but I think that Dobson has taken an undeserved beating from many sides and he deserves a little bit more grace from critics.
First, Thanks so much for your thoughtful words of grace and truth.
My brother was a homosexual who died of AIDS about 12 years ago now. He was a really intelligent, sensitive person and he was deeply insecure as well. As a new Christian all I had was confusion when I tried to approach him.
I don’t think people “choose” to be homosexual or adulterers or fornicators or whatever. At least not cognitively. There seem to be deep mysteries in the heart of man when it comes to sexual identity formation. These involve both temptations and personality and experiences. I didn’t choose to struggle with lust. I was raised by an absent father, had access to playboys as a teen and found comfort in my fantasy world (it was a form of worship I now believe - where I went for my security.)
When you talk about not dealing with homosexuality, do we deal with any sexual sin very candidly in the church. (Or greed and materialism Or… of our culture today.) EVERY DISCIPLE needs a safe place to talk about and work through the issues of our hearts. I tried to do it alone for years. Didn’t work. For me a 12 Step group invited me to bring it all out of the closet. When it all came out of the darkness inside of me, it lost it’s power over me. Demons don’t fare well in real light!
Is the church a place for (redeemed) sinners? If it is, then we should more openly talk about the sin we have left behind in open testimonies. God does free sinners from shame and guilt. There is power in the gospel story - REAL power to bring healing and wholeness.
Thank God for how he worked there at ACU with Soulforce’s visit. Thank God He didn’t give up on me when I have responded poorly to homosexual sin. Thank God that grace continues to flow like a river.
What is considered homosexual “behavior?” Is it simply the outward act? Or does it also include homosexual thoughts? If I, as a heterosexual, am scripturally bound not to have lustful thoughts of another woman, then those who are homosexual are also bound by that same standard. If one no longer has homosexual thoughts, is he still homosexual? It’s not the same argument as alcoholics. The Bible does not condemn the thought of taking a drink. That’s only the temptation to which the alcoholic (or anyone else) cannot succumb. But a homosexual thought is in itself a sin. If one can master not having homosexual thoughts, does it not stand to reason that he is no longer homosexual? I just can’t believe that it’s not a choice. I can’t believe that God would create a being where homosexual thoughts or tendencies were innate. That would be predestination.
Good thoughts, as usual, Mike. Thanks. Under point 7, having recently moved from Connecticut (where I lived for about 12 yrs.), I think it’s important for Christians to know that current political struggles for the civil rights of homosexual couples are not as socially benign as they might seem. The fact is, legal rights and recourse are currently available to people who live together and/or share business and property interests. I’m convinced that the current push is not for the sake of gaining legal rights, but for the sake of establishing new legal definitions of marriage. That question, and I think you agree, is kingdom business. This is where, trying to be harmless as doves, we shouldn’t forget to be wise as serpents.
Again, does anyone have a response to my “divorce” question?
I truly am struggling with this and trying to understand our “stance”
In Him
Thank you, Mike for the best article on this subject that I have ever read. All of us need to hear that message.
I do think it is worth pointing out to the gay community, however, that there is a distinction to be made between unkind treatment, name calling and the like and honest, sincere biblical opposition to the act of homosexuality. The former clearly is “homophobia” and is sinful. The latter is not. Those who are fighting for rights to which they are entitled may hurt their own cause by labeling anyone who disagrees with their practice “homophobic.”
Mike, Mike, Mike… I’m liking you more and more. And as much as that is true, I don’t think I would’ve appreciated this post as much as I do w/o knowing that you have TAKEN THE TIME to get to know, to love, to seek to genuinely understand PEOPLE who deal with being attracted to the same gender. I really don’t put much stock into words from people who haven’t done that - as eloquent as they may sound. I just don’t believe it can really be done well w/o relationship.
I keep saying this, but I really believe how the church handles this will be a defining characteristic of Christianity in our day.
Regarding big conversion stories… I am also skeptical. I do, NO DOUBT see the transforming power of Christ at work in the lives of people who want to overcome these desires. Yet, we’re all bound in these bodies and will wrestle with that on different levels until we die, so what does conversion look like? It’s different for everyone! We’ve (unintentionally) marketed Christianity in the past in a way that tells onlookers, “Come over and join us… and everything in your life will get so much better!” And the temptation is there to do the same with Homosexuality… “When you’re a Christian, God will make you heterosexual!” That’s not what we’re promised.
This comment surely doesn’t reflect my whole heart… too much inside me. Hey, ask Sally G. to see an e-mail I just sent her yesterday on this subject. I am coming to visit in May, and I hope to meet you…
Lee, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sin is left.” Heb 10:26. I just have a hard time judging others hearts, but from time to time I try.
cathy,
i don’t mean to bash james dobson without good cause - actually i’m not trying to bash him at all. i’m more embarrased that to many, he is the voice and face of Christianity in America.
i find it hard to see him as a kind and compassionate person when he openly calls his listeners to boycott companies that give rights to gay couples (his web sites lists companies by name and rates how pro-gay they are) or when he urgers Christians to “protect” marriage by voting against civil rights and civil unions.
dobson, by his outspoken political activism and specific opinions, has created the misunderstanding that Christians in America must be republican, anti-gay, anti-abortion, etc. sure he says we’ll love them, but through our love we will make sure that they remain a marginalized, oppressed social group.
that just doesn’t make sense to me.
(i do apologize for lumping dobson and falwell together, however.)
Hi Lee,
Maybe we shouldn’t look at the divorce question and try to find a “stance” or overarching doctrine/law. After all, didn’t Jesus do away with the law? (Maybe that’s the reason we don’t have to be afraid that God is going to zap us today for “disobeying” his “laws”.)
I would imagine that your relative is carrying a huge burden–broken marriages–on her shoulders. Maybe that burden is there, not because she broke some “law” or “doctrine” or “stance”, but because she hurt people that she loved. She gets to deal with that for the rest of her life; that’s her punishment. What else do you want from her? To ruin another marriage? Would that somehow make everything all right?
Maybe the real punishment of “sin” is the consequences we carry around. I think Jesus came to lighten those consequences; maybe we should too, rather than making them even more burdensome.
Martin,
Thanks for responding!
I understand she is carrying a burden! I pray for her, I do! I know I sin daily and I am truly repentant and have to turn from sin and do my best not to sin again. I just don’t see how when God says “divorce is a sin” and he gives us guidelines for WHEN divorce is “acceptable”, people disregard these guidelines and “do their own thing”. How are we suppose to teach our children “divorce is wrong” (unless there is a scriptual reason) and then they see a family member who disregarded that for her own way. Do we teach them, Oh well if it happens just repent? God doesn’t care if you marry, re-marry and re-marry just as long as you are sorry??????I thought it was repent and turn from that sin. If she cheated with a married man, re-married and divorced and married again….is she not living in the sin??????
I am only bringing this up because Mike said in statement #3 he didn’t believe homosexuality was ruining the family, divorce was. He said this and I’m just giving a personal example.
Again, thanks for those who are responding. It really helps to get different view points.
I worked at Focus on the Family for a time, and advocating rights for homosexuals in any way is considered blasphemous. If I were a secular lawmaker without a basis in Christianity, I would have no problem supporting homosexual marriages, as they don’t seem to be any more destructive than heterosexual ones. I wrestle with that.
Mike,
Why is it a sin? Left handed people are born with the predispostion to use a certain hand. Being left handed is not a sin because being left handed or more importantly choosing to throw left handed does not damage the community.
There has to be some reason or logic behind why it is a sin. For instance pedophilia destroys a community.
What is so destructive about two homosexuals engaging in a monogamous relationship from the git go? No one has answered this question when I have I asked. It all boils down to the Bible tells me so. But the Bible tells us a lot of other things we choose to ignore ie helping 56 year old widows.
Lee, as someone who has been divorced and remarried, I have been grateful to God a thousand (or more) times over that He led me to a church home more than twenty years ago where there was acceptance and compassion. I wish more Christians were so. If you haven’t experienced the hellaciousness of divorce first-hand, you probably aren’t familiar with the often-wordless scorn that goes with it; the shame; the embarrassment.
Does “taking a stand” require that we, as fellow-sinners, insist that our divorced brothers and sisters submit to our need for their public penitence at a time when their self-esteem may be next-to-nonexistent anyway? Or do we let God take whatever stand He pleases to take? If we insist on this measure from divorced people, should we not also insist on it from those who get drunk, are greedy, are swindlers, are gossips, are those who judge others rather than judging others’ deeds for themselves?
I could not agree more that divorce is horribly destructive. I’ve been there, and I would never contradict God’s own words that He, too, hates divorce. But - like homosexual sin - is it really something that needs to be made worse by singling it out and shining a spotlight on it so that some may be publicly condemned while others at the fringe of the spotlight’s shadow are somehow considered righteous because they have not been touched by this particular sin?
I agree fully with about 95% of what you have shared. I’m him-hawing over about 5% of it. I do have a couple of questions. When you say people don’t choose to be gay, just like you didn’t choose not to be, what is that assumption based on? (this is sincere, not sarcastic) In your mind, whose hands is it in, or who sets sexual orientation? Is it God? Is it passed on genetically, and who started it? Is it early life experiences? Is it ever just a choice? Can people always be trusted in saying that it wasn’t their fault, that they themselves are not to blame for making a poor choice?
Just wanted to explore your mind a bit, if you have the time to respond. Thanks.
Martin,
I thought Jesus came to fulfill the law, not do away with it. If He did away with it, there’d be no consequences to lighten…
Otherwise, I look at the NT and I see a pretty decent emphasis on obedience, no?
You are a wise and godly man. Preach on!
from Grenz:
“Discipleship demands that each member understand that he or she is accountable to the community in all dimensions of life, including the sexual. … Because it is a community of discipleship, the church in turn has a responsibility both to nurture and also to admonish and discipline the wayward in its midst, including those who are not living in sexual chastity, whatever the exact nature of the unchaste behavior may be.”
i don’t think i really buy this idea. is this being practiced already, in some way other than the scandal and reaction to the revelation of extramarital affairs of highly visible church leaders? how could this accountability work? some form of public confession? why should i be expected to reveal to the church what goes on in the privacy of my bedroom? it strikes me as a way to keep tabs on or control the sex lives of unmarried people, a minority group in most churches. i have a feeling that married people would be automatically assumed to be chaste and less under the watchful accountability eye.
it is also striking to me that the people preaching celibacy to the unmarried are always themselves married.
Hi J.P.,
Paul seems to argue that we are not under law, thanks to what Jesus did–check out his arguement in Romans 6 (”. . . you are no longer subject to the law. . . “) and Galatians 2 (”I am not one of those who treats the grace of God as meaningless. For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die.”) When one has stressed obediance to laws for so long, it is hard to understand that there is so much more. (And if obedience to the law is so important, when was the last time you tithed at the temple as commanded in the law?)
The “consequences” I was talking about are us living with our sins. For example, if I cheat on my wife, the very real consequence TODAY is that I will have trouble sleeping tonight, I’ll feel guilty, I will probably end up hating myself, I will hurt my wife, etc. THAT is punishment enough! The consequences of hatred are that we are totally miserable b/c of those terrible feelings. Jesus frees us from those burdens by showing us a better way.
Hope this clarifies what I said a bit. Thanks.
I greatly appreciated this posted entry.
I find nothing more reassuring when discussing a topic such as homosexuality and finding a leader in the church who lets it be known that we should welcome homosexuals, just as we do heterosexuals. Not only that, but I appreciated you touching on the point of homosexuals possibly being born that way, as it seems a lot of the time that many Christians like to think homosexuals have just made the choice to be interested in individuals of their same sex; meaning they can just “make the choice” to not be that way if they wanted.
Honestly, whether we are born with an attraction to one sex over another, I don’t know (nor do I think anyone truly knows), but I do know that it is reassuring for homosexuals to hear a leader in the church being willing to suggest that that COULD be the case.
Finally, I think my favorite part of your post was point 10, where you mentioned “I’m writing about people I know and love. I want them to be safe enough to share their inner struggles”. Though I am not a homosexual, I too know individuals who have attractions toward members of their same sex, and I too love them no differently than I do my heterosexual friends. And I want them, as well as others to feel comfortable talking to me about their struggles and issues they face, just as my heterosexual friends feel comfortable talking to me in trust about issues.
Recently, I have taken up several entries on my blog covering my thoughts and ideas on homosexuality as I had been following the Soulforce mission to ACU, as well as thoughts on a LGBT Symposium that I recently attended at my current educational institution–which in its self turned out to be a GREAT day of knowledge and information, as well as a brief look into the life of LGBT individuals for a heterosexual as myself. I have found that through my writings and willingness to openly discuss such a topic as homosexuality, and being accepting of individuals who struggle with these types of desires, has actually encouraged a friend of mine to disclose to me their struggles with homosexuality. I appreciate this because I feel, homosexuality, like any other struggle an individual might face, should not be forced to be “closeted”.
Martin,
If there’s no law, why is it cheating?
–
Posted interpretations of the March 27 Taylor County phenomenon, albeit intelligent and perceptive, have yet to attain the truly penetrating level of analysis based on the ancient order of things and the socioreligious backdrop deep in the heart of Texas.
In the days of our youth, when truth was upheld and error exposed, a flaxen-haired gospel preacher, clutching a coiled Holy Bible, articulated a telling argument on the evils of dancing and the sins of the flesh.
The telling argument: If dancing (a.k.a. daintcin’) did not draw its popularity from banal sexual urges, then let men dance with men and women with women. Such a requirement, it was thought, would rob dancing of its popularity.
So provocative was the danger of bisexual dancing that identification of such with “the hill” would surely have undermined the reputation of the “dear Christian College” and perhaps even interfered with fund raising. Naturally the higher-education authorities sought informants on heterosexuals who would do such things. Indeed, the pear got pretty prickly when in 1962 a photograph of a heterosexual duo waltzing in a dramatic production somehow wended its way into the yearbook. Similarly, a wall in the middle of the pool facilitated swimming while blocking that incredible hedonistic threat—”mixed bathing.” Those were the days, when truth was upheld and error was the only thing exposed.
Fast forward now through all the swimsuited coeds who have won pageants and the arrival of the campus’ swing dancers, much the concern among defenders of the socioreligious orthodoxy, and you see how the challenge evolves.
But a bold windfall of logic has just eviscerated the dilemma.
Returning to the gospel preacher’s telling argument of long ago, yes, why not have men dancing with men and women with women? A novel solution! No chance of dancing and swimming causing pregnancy and sending your soul to Hell.
Thus will be brought to pass the ideal, long suppressed in code but now uncloseted, for which so many have sung so fervently and frequently for nigh unto a hundred years, “While we GAILY sing let praises ring / For our Alma Mater true!”
DAVID
Mike, what I wonder about is that I doubt that pedophiles decided one day they wanted to be attracted to children. I would not think that would be an attraction one would seek out but we certainly do not see much coming from any direction that suggests because pedophiles can’t help it, society should accomodate it. I know you were not saying that, but many in Christendom want to condone homosexuality because homosexuals can’t help their orientation. I just wonder about this.
Mike,
I don’t disagree with much of what you say. But I wonder whether your #7 reflects a naïve view of the Gay Agenda, which, as I understand it, seeks not “full civil rights” for gays and lesbians, but unqualified approval of what many Americans consider a sinful lifestyle. In fact, gays and lesbians already enjoy full civil rights (i.e., the rights protected under the Constitution), and after Lawrence v. Texas (2004), they now enjoy sexual privacy rights that even heterosexuals had not obtained. By “rights” you probably mean *benefits* that the government has decided to bestow on certain groups. But is it really unjust not to support tax credits for gays and lesbians or to force companies to pay for their partners’ health care? The government, in doling out benefits, already distinguishes among all kinds of groups based on myriad factors, including sexual relationships. (Couples merely living together, for example, can’t get married-couple tax benefits, and aren’t guaranteed health coverage from each other’s employers.)
To be sure, vitriolic protesting against gays and lesbians is hardly Christ-like. But I’d say it’s quite a stretch to argue that “justice and compassion” require the Church to “advocate for full civil rights for gay couples,” which could be interpreted as a call to march in lock-step behind the Gay Agenda.
I guess I’m at about the same place in theory. But what I am wrestling with now is how does this play out in the real world? Do we fight for homosexuals to be able to marry (I think your answer to that is no.)? Or “legal/civil union”? With concern to benefits and insurance issues in the workplace.
I just get stuck in the real world stuff. The theory is much easier for me.
I have to say I agree wholeheartedly with you, Mike. In fact, I feel like my sins far outweigh that of any of these who suffer in silence or even those who don’t suffer. But the wonder of it all is that I am forgiven, cleansed and I’ve even been able to finally forgive myself. I live for the day when we can sit together and be open and real and feel accepted and loved because we are all children of God doing the best we can in a fallen world.
Martin,
I appreciate the further clarification.
I guess what I was really trying to nitpick is, if in fact there is no law for us to be responsible to/for/etcetera, then what is the standard for obedience? Does obedience, in fact, have any meaning anymore?
And then what happens to “Trust and Obey”?
I wholeheartedly agree with the biblical notion that we love the sinner and hate the sin. Where I depart from some of what you said, Mike, are the following.
First, I think the research “jury” is still out on whether homosexuality is the result of genetics or environment. Since it is not politically correct to do that sort of research right now, I’m not aware of any such ongoing studies, so I believe we are wandering into unproven territory to say that homosexuals are born that way and have no choice. Perhaps, just as there seems to be a genetic link with alcoholism and certain environmental and behaviorial factors that create an alcoholic, maybe there are certain genetic predispositions to homosexuality (eg. hormonal, etc.) that when combined with environmental factors and behaviors create a homosexual. Like MOST other human factors, genetics and environment each seem to play a part. What does seem to be the case is that many if not most adolescents go through a period of time when they question their sexuality en toto, and that can include a sort of hero-worship and fantacizing about a member of the same sex or even some same sex experimentation. That does not, as the gay rights movement often claims, mean that person is a homosexual. Many of those same adolescents truthfully and forcefully claim their heterosexuality later in life.
Second, I do not agree with most of the gay rights movement because their stance seems to focus on the notion that we should treat “homosexual” in the same category as race, gender,