Soulforce, a group promoting rights and acceptance for gay and lesbian people, is on a 7-week bus tour, visiting what they deemed to be leading Christian universities.
Today the group is at ACU. I’m so proud of Abilene Christian for welcoming the group on campus, knowing that it’s important to discuss this issue and to always extend the love of Christ. Check out what the Soulforce organizers are saying about ACU. I understand that some of the ACU “constituency” is upset that they were allowed on campus. Which makes me even more proud of the administration for doing what’s right.
On their website, they list two issues of concern with ACU: that ACU considers homosexual behavior to be cause for disciplinary action and that ACU lists resources for help for those struggling with same-sex attraction.
What a great chance to talk, to understand, to challenge, and to build relationships.
(The next couple days I plan to continue the series on the B-I-B-L-E.)
I continue to be impressed with gutsy calls that ACU seems to be making. If this keeps up, I just might allow my kids to attend a Christian college after all.
(Sorry — kind of a campus ministry guy here…)
I can support an effort to encourage acceptance of homosexual PEOPLE, but how can ACU support a group which encourages the acceptance of SIN? I have no problem with homosexual people - they are people just like anyone. I have a friend who came to me 8 years ago and told me he was gay - and thanks to God, he was able to leave that sinful lifestyle and he is now married with kids and a very effective Youth Minister.
I don’t understand the push to accept homosexuality as a sin. Do you see anyone taking a bus on a 51 day 19 college tour to promote the acceptance of murder? of rape? of lying? of cheating on your taxes? But just say it’s all about love, and people who claim to follow God start fawning all over the sin - when they SHOULD be reaching out to the sinner - bringing them back to God with LOVE.
God offers love and a way out of any sin imaginable. Please accept the homosexual people - I beg you. But please, do not support their sin, for by doing so you are supporting their separation from the Lord Himself.
My prayer today is for the ACU students to extend love and grace to Soulforce.
Matt Elliott:
You need to listen to/read the presentation made by one Darryl Tippens at the recent “Theology in the Christian University” conference here at ACU. If ACU can make some significant moves toward Dr. Tippens’ view of what Christian higher education should be, I think you might be won over completely!
I believe the presentation will be made available as a podcast soon.
My prayers are being sent to ACU and the Soulforce entity as well. What a fabulous opportunity to demonstrate Love.
How ironic!! The Boston University School of Theology is currently in turmoil because of a death threat that a gay seminary student received in the campus mail. It has certainly prompted lots of discussion and comraderie and unity and love among the students, faculty and administration, as they all rally behind this student and look out for his safety. It’s a shame that it takes something like this to “wake people up!” I praise ACU for at least allowing the discussion to happen. It’s the only way to stop the prejudice and hatred and violence — which, no matter what one’s feelings are on this matter, are definitely not fruits of the Spirit! I pray that God will give everyone compassion and wisdom as this matter is contemplated and discussed.
Matt E: Call me and I’ll give you more reasons to send your precious children to ACU. I can’t think of any other college on earth where I would have wanted my sons to be. We constantly praise God for the school, administration, faculty and staff. Their welcome of Soulforce is no surprise to us.
Steve Sr.
We received a communication in the mail on Friday from Royce Money explaining the situation with Soulforce. We were very proud of the response by ACU and the willingness for discussion. Everyone involved will be in our prayers.
Reminds me of what some people say about the terriorists-we need to “understand”
Comparing the SoulForce riders to terrorists is a cheap shot and unnecessary. I’m proud of ACU for not being afraid to dialogue.
From here at Harding, let me offer kudos for ACU’s response to this. As vct3po said, prejudice, hatred and violence are definitely not fruits of the spirit. Neither is the police line which was shown to be the response of one of the earlier stops on their tour. (I think it was “Falwell U.”, but not sure of that).
If these people really want to just talk, and not disrupt or proselytize, who would not want to engage them and let them know, in love, why we have the positions we have?
Would Jesus talk to them? I think so. Who are we to do any differently?
Reminds me of what Jesus says about forgiveness….
I’m not sure who - but someone invited SoulForce to the 9 pm worship service at University last night - and they planned to attend.
I guess you can frame this any way you choose… and that will make a difference to some. It is right to ask if Jesus would talk to this group, and I think he would. THE question is this, what would He say, how would He say it, and what would the parting word be. This is where I see the departure. I am convinced that Jesus would not leave the encounter without saying, go your way and sin no more. If this “opportunity” ends with less than that, it has not been in the spirit of Jesus.
Here’s an excerpt from SoulForce website re their stop at ACU. The extending of Jesus love to them is already being felt.
“The Equality Ride Route: Abilene Christian University
Abilene Christian University [b]has extended a warm welcome [/b] to the Soulforce Equality Ride. ACU administrators have worked with Soulforce Equality Ride members to come up with a day of scheduled activities. The members of the Soulforce Equality Ride look forward to our day at ACU and are confident that it will be an excellent learning opportunity for all involved. ”
I’ve been in prayer about the activities yesterday and today and for those involved. Our fellowship too long has equated this sin with the sinner which, imho, blocks loving witness to those struggling with gender identification and attraction. I pray that the LORD will use the Souforce Ride as His vehicle to teach us how better to witness to these needing Jesus in their lives, just like everyone else does. Maybe this is a first step toward not cutting the homosexual out of the herd of all who struggle with sin and wage battle with the Accuser. God will out!!!
I would be interested in hearing how ACU intends to “let them know, in love, why we have the positions we have.” What position does ACU intend to communicate? Where does ACU stand on this topic? If it is a position of love and compassion and an offering to help with Soulforce’s homosexual struggles - I’m all for that. But I’m guessing that Soulforce is more likely to have their own agenda, which does not include trying move its members away from homosexual lifestyles. Jesus Christ was the ultimate example of love and compassion, but he also stood for something.
Tim Whitaker
Nashville, TN
According to Mat Staver, a Christian attorney and Liberty Counsel spokesman, the event is not simply to come on campus but to make a political statement. The “equality ride” tour has plans to “confront” colleges that bar homosexual students from enrolling.
There is such a thing as the “gay agenda” and I urge people to educate themselves on it.
Ray: Jesus would have (IMHO) addressed the person in front of him as an individual, knowing history and causes and heart. I can imagine that there would be some homosexual individuals to whom he would never mention the symptomatic behavior but focus on the healing that he (Jesus) offers. Others, he would rake over the coals and blast them for their blatant and arrogant flaunting of their sin. I do know this…he would have done the right thing for the person in front of him. Jesus’ admonition to ‘go and sin no more’ is to every person of every age, because sin hurts people. And Jesus cares about people.
Ray:
I agree with you. I also think that the way in which the message, “go your way and sin no more,” is delivered is important. Is it our job to give them that message, or to point them to Jesus and allow the Holy Spirit to convict them of the truth?
Greg,
I have to agree with you. This is a great move on the part of ACU. By welcoming those with whom we disagree, it shows that we are unafraid to engage the culture and in fact are eager to do so. We have nothing to fear from the world. MLK said it best, “I’m not afraid of any man!” We shouldn’t be afraid either.
A couple of weeks ago, Soulforce paid a visit to Union University here in Jackson. My kids were having a birthday party down the street at Jackson Christian School at around the same time as their visit. On the way there, I saw the Soulforce bus pull in. The campus was locked down tighter than a prison. There were police officers everywhere. I even saw a couple of guards up in the bell tower! I couldn’t help but think that it looked like they were expecting a siege. I also couldn’t help but contrast that reception with that of ACU. Other campuses should take note.
Beverly…
Therein lies the problem. They’re not seeking forgiveness. In their hearts and in their minds, they don’t believe they’re sinning. Their question to you would be, “Why should we be seeking forgiveness?”
Ray…
I totally agree with your above statement.
I have to question… what exactly is the objective for the visit? Are they visiting ACU and other Christian universities in an attempt to “win us over”? Are the visits intended to show us that we need to show some love and kindness?
I don’t have a problem with love and kindness. Now, if they want to sit with the ACU faculty and discuss why we believe they’re sinning and why they don’t believe they are, fine.
Anyone expecting a conclusion from that discussion, though, is going to be disappointed.
Therefore, what good does this visit do?
Mike,
I too, am proud of our dear alma mater (ACU) for the response they are taking to the Soulforce E.Ride tour. We can NEVER underestimate the power of God in situations. The letter that Royce sent in the ACU newsletter was inspired, at the least. How can we model Jesus if we don’t open ourselves to the chances to do that? This, in no way, delutes our belief in what the Bible says about homosexuality, it just gives us a wonderful opportunity to share that belief with those who disagree. I pray that today will be peaceful and that the visiting group will see Christ personified and their hearts will be opened to God’s truth.
P.S. To Matt Elliot–You have obviously never spent much time on the campus of ACU, or you would have a different opinion of Christian Universities….I can’t wait to see you again, dear friend and follow up on this conversation!!
Greg
It may be that we disagree here. If we are the body of Christ then it seems to me that we need to be his eyes, hands, feet, heart, and mouth. I do agree that the way the message is delivered is important, but it must be delivered. There is a good reason for ACU to have their policy regarding homosexuality in the handbook. It is good to seek to understand… but also to be understood. We believe and practice certain things because of our love for the Lord and desire to please Him.
“What good does this visit do?” Perhaps I’m naive, but I believe in the concept of planting seeds.
Go ACU! There is no doubt that this is a positive move. Maybe instead of us Christians trying to be so involved in the sex lives of everybody else, we start spending our time in more productive ways, like trying to understand/change those who are full of pride, something that, according to Proverbs et. al, God seems to REALLY hate. That should keep us busy.
About terrorists: people do things for reasons. One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. Think of the Maccabees and the zeolots. Heck, think of the chldren of Israel in Canaan (”Saul, are those sheep that I hear? Weren’t you supposed to kill them along with the women, children, and infants?” I Sam. 15). Ok, maybe that example has more to do with genocide, but perhaps the point is the same. Anyway, I recommend “V for Vendetta” to illustrate the complexity of terrorism.
I agree, Greg. We are to plant the seeds, water them and God will bring His harvest. If only one seed germinates, the visit is a huge success. We may never see nor hear about the harvest that potentially can come from this visit, but God knows and will bring the harvest. I’m for planting every opportunity we have, with all love and gentleness.
The fact is, this is an issue that Christians are divided on. All you have to do is open the newspaper to find controversy over ordination and marriage - within the church. As Christians, united in Christ, aren’t we at least called to understand the differences that divide us? Why do some otherwise faithful believers find no problem with a gay lifestyle? I can tell you that it’s not blind ignorance… They probably have a more intentional heremenuetic than most of us.
Those that disagree with us know why we hold the belief that we do. Can any of you articulate how they arrived at their understanding? Rather than simply looking to correct them, why not try to first understand their position, how they arrived where they are, and then attempt to reconcile it if it proves faulty.
That’s what I understand this “ride” to be about. Opening dialog. Creating understanding - even if the differences, and debate, continue. It’s not enought to just say, “go and sin know more,” if we’re not willing to understand why someone chooses to sin in the first place. How can we teach and encourage someone if we’re not willing to respect them enough to listen to their current understanding?
Bob…How do you know they are not seeking forgiveness? What if today, as they are on campus, I extend my hand to one of these visitors..how do you know what difference it would make…and how do you know they would respond by saying, “Why should we be seeking forgiveness?”
Sounds to me like you may be dealing with some preconceived notions. Maybe a seed will be planted today..and if it be only one seed, then it was worth it..right?
We received the letter from ACU/Royce Money on Friday and it was one of the best pieces of mail I’ve ever received from ACU. It basically said this visit wasn’t something ACU would have chosen, but it the effort to be salt and light, they had scheduled some dialogue with the group. (There was much more to the letter, but that part stuck with me.) My understanding is that the students have been fully informed about the visit as have the faculty and staff. I have enough faith and confidence in those chosen by ACU to engage in the dialogue that Christ will be conveyed lovingly, but without compromise. After reading the letter Friday, I did go to the Soulforce website and was pleased to see the words they were already saying about ACU before they even arrived.
OK . . . scrap the idea of “open” discussion - there is already a conclusion: “they” are sinners, therefore “we” must tell them to “sin no more.” Come on!! Is there really no need for any further thought and talk about this?
Beverly, Greg, etc.,
I totally agree that it’s worth a try. I’m all for the notion that one seed planted might turn into something more.
A couple of thoughts, though:
1) What does it say that this group is initiating the meeting? Why didn’t we initiate it? Does this say something about them and their intentions or about us?
2) Exactly which group will be “planting the seeds”? With all the division on this issue between the body of Christ as a whole, single congregations and even CofC college faculty, will this visit divide us even more?
Bob, I think your third question is the whole point. People are looking for an honest, open dialog. Both sides are clearly hoping to plant “seeds,” and in an honest discussion that’s possible. The question is, why are we so afraid of honest communication? Can the church truly remain healthy and mature if it avoids teaching, discussing, and considering issues that are important to too many people?
There shouldn’t be any hesitation that honest conversation will do harm. Not if we have any faith in the power of the gospel, and in the power of God, to touch hearts and shepherd the church. I think the division that you seem to be afraid of is rooted in the isolationism and close-mindedness of churches that want these divisive issues to just go away. They’ll wait for everything to pass, thanks.
Mike,
Thanks for giving those of us outside of the ACU “loop” the scoop on what is happening at there. I applaud the university for their willingness to be open and receptive.
May we all seek to love first before we judge.
Understanding homosexuality is important, but perhaps acceptance is more important. Accept people for who they are right now. Why do we have such a problem accepting people as they are? Don’t you hope that people accept you for who you are right now, even though you are full of flaws? And why do we feel such an obligation to change everybody? I can’t make my nephew change his mind about liking oranges, so how can I expect to change other people’s sexual preferences. Maybe we should just take a huge load off of our backs and breathe easier and let God change whomever he wants to while we throw open the doors and say “Welcome!”
I have never been more proud of the school that I have invested nearly 7 years in. I am also honored to have as good friends people like Derran and Ann Reese, Justin Tuggle, and a few other people who graciously took a few of the visitors from Soulforce to Starbucks last night in order to express hospitality.
My beautiful wife, Kayci, a recruiter for ACU, was in charge of escorting the Soulforce visitors to chapel today. She just called sharing how great of an experience it was.
Continue to pray for our conversations to be “full of grace and seasoned with salt.”
Thanks for this discussion. I appreciate what you’ve said in these posts, Mike. But since there are several “mikes” posting on this blog now, just for clarity’s sake, let me mention that it’s only from me if “Mike” is highlighted, linking you back to preachermike.com.
Allowing SoulForce on campus is one of the most incredible decisions that ACU has ever made. I was blessed to be able to have dinner with the group last night (along with about 10 other students and 15 faculty/staff) and it was fantastic. This group truly wants to dialogue about the issue of homosexuality and the ways and manners in which homosexuals are treated differently (by both the world and the church) than most any other group of people.
To follow up on what Mike said earlier, the question of homosexuality being a sin is not as easily answered as most of us would like to think. Scholars are equally divided on the issue and it is one that will not “just go away” anytime soon. The best thing we can do is to have dialogue with groups who think or feel differently than we do about this.
As a final thought, I asked a couple of the SoulForce riders to sit with me at chapel this morning and they did. As we sat and sang “Love One Another” (each of us singing loud and from our hearts) tears came to my eyes as I recalled all the ways in which I still needed to be refined by God and how grateful I was that his love and compassion for me extend beyond the way I judge or treat people that are different than me.
The Mother of All Mikes said: “But since there are several “mikes” posting on this blog now, just for clarity’s sake, let me mention that it’s only from me if “Mike” is highlighted, linking you back to preachermike.com. ”
All of us “other Mikes” appreciate the clarification!
I knew that was coming! And I deserve it.
A couple more thoughts, then I’m backing out of the whole thing.
1) I agree that healthy dialogue is a good thing, especially with an issue that affects so many. I’m just having trouble with what appears to be the mindset of those involved. Will this be a listen, nod and smile-style discussion or will both sides actually be heard? Does anyone really expect to see any of the Soulforce folks listening to the “same lines they’ve heard 1,000 times before”?
2) I think, bottom line, this entire “Ride” is about Soulforce drumming up support, for lack of a better term, for its cause. The group’s Web site is filled with gloating about the harsh treatment they’ve received on most of their stops. I don’t see anywhere where they’re talking about praying, etc. for these universities.
If ACU welcomes this group with open arms, as apparently it is in the midst of doing, I can’t wait to see what the group has to say about the visit later on.
Just wondering … why was Harding not on the list? Was it geographical (no, looking at their route it doesn’t appear to be out of the way)? How might HU have responded?
Anyway, good discussion.
We have had many, many meetings and discussions about this visit since last semester. The students were well prepared, and I know we have all been praying for and about this for a long time. No one can really say what the outcome is, but I am thankful that we are talking with them about this issue. At the end of the day, we may still not agree, but I am sure we will be more enlightened by this discussion.
I pray that the fruits of the Spirit will truly be displayed today by everyone involved, and that this will be a learning experience for all of us.
Isn’t that a lovely picture of my beloved McDonald Hall (which I am the Residence Director for) on the website? I wonder how they picked this one-that cracked me up!!
Blessings…
An article on a totally different reception at Union University in Jackson, TN.
http://unionuniversitysoulforce.notlong.com
Peace.
I meant to say that no one can really say what the outcome will be…
Bob -
I’m sure you’re not saying this, but it would be good for us to not assume we know what the mindset is of everyone involved. ACU didn’t ask for the visit; they were asked. They said “yes,” knowing that all the people on this ride are deeply loved by God.
One of the people who’s right in the middle of it (from ACU’s side) is a person who stepped out of a same-sex direction in her life and is leading groups to help students with similar struggles find the courage, community, and resources to do the same.
I don’t know why Harding wasn’t asked. All I know is what they said: that they chose leading Christian universities (Wheaton, Brigham Young, Biola, ACU, Regent, etc.) who they think discriminate against gay and lesbian students. Obviously there are other good Christian schools that could have been selected.
I do pray that the seeds that Soul Force hope to plant in the hearts and minds of ACU’s young people do NOT take root. But that the seeds planted by loving and concerned students/faculty DO.
Those of us who deal with the effects of homosexuality in the family know there is plenty to be concerned about. Amen?
If any have interest in digging into the New Testament Ethical vision for our sexual orientation, I urge you to read Richard B. Hays’ The Moral Vision of the New Testament.
His chapter on “Homosexuality” is thoughtful, compassionate, well researched and Jesus-Like. Pages 379-406
His section in this chapter on Living the Text: The Church as Community Suffering with the Creation is outstanding. He asks and offers his answers to these questions:
Should the church support civil rights for homosexuals?
Can homosexual persons be members of the Christian church?
Is it Christianly appropriate for Christians who experience themselves as having a homosexual orientation to continue to participate in same-sex erotic activity?
Should the church sanction and bless homosexual unions?
Are persons of homosexual orientation subject to a blanket imposition of celibacy in a way qualitatiavely different from person of heterosexual orientation?
Should homosexual Christians expect to change their orientation?
Should persons of homosexual orientation be ordained?
Peace
If anyone is interested, I posted at length on my blog about my first hand experiences with this group over the last 24 hours.
http://www.chrisfield.blogspot.com
Call me simple if you wish but I just wonder what the big deal is about “gayness?” Aren’t the folks shown on MTV Spring Break or Girls Gone Wild just as deeply in a sinful lifestyle as a practicing homosexual? Aren’t I when I lust after a woman other than my wife in just as deep? I really don’t get how or why we make some sins taboo and some are just “human nature that we all have so it’s not a big deal.” I think the call to go forth and sin no more applies to me most of all, because I’m not an “us” (a perfect person), I’m a “them” (a struggling sinner), I just happen to not struggle with same-sex attraction.
Blessings to all!
It is so great that ACU has made itself accessible, finally, for ‘open discussions’ in its university community. I agree that President Money and the spiritual leadership at ACU are to be commended for their bravery in the face of self-righteous criticisms they have no doubt had to face.
In the dark ages (name your decade!), a few students who graduated from ACU who went forth into the world to become Salt and Light ended up choking on pepper whenever they came into contact, for the first time, with people of different sexual orientations. Some of these students did not quite know how to ‘handle’ this population. Many also suffered greatly from pepper inhalation on contact with fornicators or the alcoholics or the fraudulent and rudely demanding and manipulative people they suddenly encountered in their chosen careers or marriages. That is because when they were at ACU during ‘those’ decades, they were not honestly taught how to, or ‘given the opportunity’, to openly integrate with these ‘hostiles’ in a safe environment. Certainly they never met any people harbouring any of the above ’sicknesses’ in church! If confessions were made, ACU’s rulebook rose out of the ground like a great monolith, making suspensions and dismissals from ACU’s hallowed halls a widely practised art form. Lordy, help us all!!
ACU still apparently suspends any student it catches drinking alcohol or hiding a six-pack under the mattress, as well as violating rule “2-14. Cohabitation and/or sexual immorality, including homosexual behaviour.” (Perhaps I’ve missed things over the years, but has it yet openly dealt with date rape?) At least it is beginning to model how a Christian can participate and hopefully behave in open discussions, so that when they are faced in situations without Mommy or Daddy or ACU professors and deans around to monitor 24/7, they can step out on that limb with Jesus and let Him do the guiding. If the bough breaks, whose fault is that?
For young students who have been sheltered from the GLBT society for most of their young lives this could help them tremendously in their future interaction in their worldly workplace. If some ACU students are now gay, or have gay family members, this will be an oasis for them to hopefully witness an attempt by Christ followers to extend the love of Christ’s compassion and kindness. And should Jesus keep them single adults for the rest of their lives, they might know, if they go into the ministry, how to give good, concrete answers to those Christian search committees who ask them: ‘Are you still single after all these years because you are gay?’
The Christian community must have faith that God’s power is greater than ours in determining how to plant seeds or grow them.
Unity happens when we remember we are not the Saviour …
“The group’s Web site is filled with gloating about the harsh treatment they’ve received on most of their stops.”
Bob,
I don’t think they’re gloating… I don’t think many people are proud and enjoy gloating over suffering. Having already seen one of their presentations today, I realize that these people are hurting. Society has hurt them, and as Christians, we must help to stop the persecution. We may not agree theologically, but our role as Christians is to love and bring justice for all people. One girl told of the way she had been harassed and beaten for her orientation — through her tears, I didn’t get the impression she was “gloating”. The LGBT community simply wants to let people know they are hurting and that the opression needs to stop.
The dialogue I attended seemed primarily geared at persuading us not to carry out acts of hatred or violence against homosexuals, which is certainly a position I can agree with. However, there did seem to be an underlying implication that this goal could only be achieved by renouncing our belief in the sinfulness of homosexuality. Dr. Glenn Pemberton of the Bible department responded with an excellent statement condemning the anti-gay violence as inexcusable on the one hand, while pointing to the need to lovingly uphold the authority of Scripture on the other. I’m continually baffled by the human tendency to flock to one extreme or the other, in this case extremes of either hatred or relativism. I strongly agree with the happy medium which Dr. Pemberton described.
Some of what I hear from some of you is what makes me angry and sometimes embarrassed to be a part of mainline Christianity. Why do we think that we are the only ones who can teach anyone anything? Why do we always refer to others as “they”? Why are we always so self-righteous? Why do we think we are the only ones who know what the Bible says and the only ones who can interpret it?
Guess what!!! We are all sinners!!
I read Chris Field’s thoughts on spending some time with Soulforce and his thoughts are fair and compassionate.
Daniel,
Did you catch the quote (and I’m paraphrasing here): “I had considered going to school at ORU and I felt like I needed to make a statement by being arrested.”
Never mind that there were plenty of statements being made several feet away … from off campus. She was trespassing, which I’m pretty sure is against the law, and decided she needed to make some headlines.
Simple as that.
Julie,
Two sides to every story. Hang in there.
We must be very, very careful when we presume to have the moral and righteous high ground. Very few things are “simple as that,” and I’m thankful there are no websites now debating the righteousness or unrighteousness of my actions in my recent past. I don’t know near enough to make any statements about this group or their intentions. But this conversation occuring today at ACU is at least a generous and hospitable sign to this group that we are all fellow learners, and that the only One with the right to stand on moral high ground is the One whom we worship.
I’m thankful for people wiser than me who are meeting them on the equal ground we share beneath the cross.
I’m an ACU grad now living in Virginia Beach preparing to return to school at Regent. Soulforce was here recently and, from what I was told and not what I saw, they are a group with an agenda that involves more than “understanding”. This presents some interesting scenarios in my mind. For example, what really are the deeper thoughts and beliefs that students, facutly and staff have at ACU about homosexuality? Is there unity, agreement, consensus about how to think about this issue? I think situations like this are vital to the overall health of institutions/churches/families where we are forced to take honest looks at where we really stand on certain matters. My hope and prayer is that ACU will strike that rare balance of love and truth in their actions with Soulforce.
I too would like to say how proud I am of ACU for allowing this dialogue to occur. There is another benefit that can come from this event that I haven’t heard much being said about and that is what a great learning experience this is for the ACU students. During my years at ACU this is not the typical group I found myself encountering there, but now that I am out of college I find myself surrounded by people who are lost and hurting in this world. I think this hands on experience of listening to, learning to relate to, and reaching out in love people who have differing world views than ACU does is great preparation for what lots of students will find beyond their years at ACU. Who knows what God’s great plans are in all of this, but maybe this is preparing a student for ministry to friends and neighbors they will meet in years to come.
Ever get the feeling that we are plowing up ground that has already been plowed up. . . back in the 1940s, 50s, and 60s during the Civil Rights era? Weren’t Christians talking (arguing) about some acceptance issues then? I wonder how many segrationists look back to fifty years ago and are proud of what they fought for? How many of us will look back fifty years from now and be proud or ashamed of what we are saying and doing now? It doesn’t take an Einstein to see which direction civilization is heading now (perhaps with God’s blessing?). Just a crazy DREAM, but wouldn’t it be great if our CofC movement was distanced from other intolerant Christian traditions and we were the ones fifty years from now known for something besides our homophobia?
Personally, I think that it would have been a good move to publicly repent to the homosexual community for our elitist and insensetive attitudes toward them in the past. While I still believe that homosexuality is a sin, that does not justify our or anyone else’s abuse. I think a public confession would go a long way to opening up a fresh dialog between Christians and te homosexual community.
Take a stand, anywhere, and you’re intolerate of something. Is Bonhoeffer ashamed that he took part in the plan to assassinate Hitler? It was regrettable, to say the least. But shameful?
Regarding the notion that pro-gay believers have a more-thoughtful hermeneutic: hanging around an Ivy divinity school for several years, I didn’t see that.
Bob,
Sure they may be trying to get people’s attention, but that is because they want people to deal with the issues and not simply ignore them, like so many have done. But I can tell you what I am experiencing first hand today: These people are not simply gloating in their suffering in order to stir up dissension and controversy. These people are hurt and are tired of the hatred against them. They simply want the hatred, abuse, and oppression to end. And the only way to do that is to bring attention to what is happening. You can believe what you want about their intentions and emotions from their website (I wouldn’t necessarily trust the website), but having witnessed them in person, I see hurt people who are crying for justice and kindness…
I am so proud of my employer for responding this way. ACU had several ways to respond to a group whose purpose seems to be to challenge our student handbook and counseling center stances; they chose to say “Yes, we’ll talk about it. Please be our guests on campus.”
Again, I am so, so proud to work at ACU.
An open dialogue in the church has been desparately needed for decades concerning homosexuality. It is easy to call someone a sinner and leave it at that. However, it takes grace, love, and commitment to help someone who is living in or struggling with sin to get out. I have never understood why we accept some “sinners” in our church, i.e. idoloters, those who are jealous, greedy, or adulturers, but not others, specifically homosexuals.
Hopefully, by ACU taking this step to open an honest dialogue, this will prompt churches to having a completely open door policy instead of a partial open door. Regardless of my personal beliefs, this is an issue that will only become larger over time and I hope I am part of a church that is known for healing all “sick” people instead of only admitting the “sick” people that we feel comfortable with.
Unhighlighted Mike said:
“Those that disagree with us know why we hold the belief that we do. Can any of you articulate how they arrived at their understanding? Rather than simply looking to correct them, why not try to first understand their position, how they arrived where they are, and then attempt to reconcile it if it proves faulty.”
Great words on any disagreement and honest communication. Equally intelligent people came come to two different conclusions (except Texas-OU matters). We always seek to correct before we seek to understand.
“These people are hurt and are tired of the hatred against them. They simply want the hatred, abuse, and oppression to end.”
Daniel,
I don’t mean this as being unsympathetic, uncaring or anything else. We should remember, however, that this is a CHOICE homosexuals are making. Choices have consequences, right or wrong.
I think that is such a great thing. You know -groups like Soulforce go to these Christian universities thinking they have a message to deliver to these “Christians”; but one thing I’ve learned, if they encounter Christ for real on campus, it will be Soulforce that will come away somehow changed and encountering a message God has for them instead of the other way around.
Kudo’s to ACU for such a great open-campus policy to allow Soulforce to come. I would be proud, too!
I am learning more and more that truth can really only be encountered and experienced by way of relationships, not neccesarily through expousing positions and expressing propositional statements. The former is messy, upredictable, and often the outcome unknown. But I think it gets us closer to the Truth (Jesus).
I forwarded this story to a few church friends and asked, “What if this bus pulled up in front of our church? What would we do?”
I hope they don’t come on the Sunday we have pot luck. (Sarcasm).
I think that ACU has been very professional and have acted in a godly way. This must have been a tough decision to handle and they have done a great job. I think it is important to note that ACU also considers cohabitation of heterosexual behavior a call for discipilinary action as does the Bible. I am sure that if they threw pedophillia in the handbook as well there would be the same reaction. It should be important to note that not too long ago homosexuality was considered a psychological disorder. Wow, we have come a long way.
I’m sorry, Bob, but regardless of whether or not they have chosen to be homosexual, and I agree with your stance–it is a choice–regardless of their choice, physical and emotional violence to a person is never justified.
i found this at crosswalk.com about the visit to acu
http://www.crosswalk.com/news/weblogs/MPerkins/?adate=03/27/2006
Yeah, this would never happen at Harding (someone asked above). Some of the students and faculty would be up for it, but the Administration would not stand for it.
GKB-
Thanks for speaking on behalf of Harding University.
David Burks
I am so proud of ACU and their response to this visit on campus. I keep thinking what it is Jesus would have done in this situation and I am drawn to the stories of Zaccheus and the adulterous woman. I think if Jesus has taught us anything it should be to show love and compassion to the sinner, while not accepting the sin. I think that is exactly what ACU is doing. Allowing this group on campus is not in any way validating the homosexual lifestyle, but I believe it is key to demonstrating the beauty of a Christian lifestyle. Way to go ACU! I’m proud to say I went there!
Roger:
You think otherwise?
We have to let our light shine, otherwise they will not see it. They should be invited to sit at the table with us so that they will see our good deeds and know whom we are. Otherwise, how will we ever minister? We are so use to going to them to minister that when they come to us we don’t know how to react. ACU has answered the calling. Will you? This will be a day to remember in the history of ACU.
GKB:
What makes you think you are all-knowing?
Beverly: I like what you said, and I thnk we should remember that the question “Why should I ask for forgiveness” must come before “How should I ask for forgiveness.” Neither of these questions are likely to be asked across a police line.
I also think we all ought to go ahead and follow Ed’s lead and say out loud, “I’m a ‘them’ (a struggling sinner).” It reminds me of Walt Kelly’s “We have met the enemy, and he is us.”
I never claimed to be all-knowing, Roger. I should have nuanced my statement and said something along the lines of “Based on my five or so years living in Searcy, both as a student and an alum, I am inclined to doubt the possibility of this ever happening at Harding.”
Better?
Well, Mike…the numbers on this post surpassed your final four picks post..
Can I just say, thank you Jesus, for loving me, the sinful woman that I am..Help me to see others as you see me..
How wonderful to be able to talk so openly with my brothers and sisters and not get in a fight or a split over it..its so cool…thanks, Mike for your blog hospitality..
“Choices have consequences, right or wrong.”
Bob,
I’m referring to persecution, hate-crimes, harassment, murder, etc. of people in the LGBT community. Are you implying that these are valid consequences for what they choose? I’m not talking about eternal consequences for the way GOD chooses to have mercy (on “them” as well as “me”). I’m talking about the unhealthy and unrelation ways that we as humans treat one another. That is what’s wrong, and that is what must stop.
I will be honest and post that I don’t know I feel about this. I see the reasons from both sides. Good for discussion, but somewhat of a risk too. I just know that God is good and He is in control of ALL situations. That brings peace in a world full of turmoil and questions. Ephesians 3:20 seems appropriate here.
“God can do anything, you know-far more than you could ever imagine or guess or request in your wildest dreams.”
Praise God He is in control and not us!
Daniel,
By no means am I justifying violence against gays and lesbians. What I am saying is that their CHOICE has consequences. There will always be hate-mongers who are seeking to physically abuse homosexuals. That’s a fact.
I didn’t say I condone it or that it was right.
I just came out of a two hour meeting with representatives of SoulForce and students of the Graduate School of Theology/Marriage and Family Therapy and can say that nothing but honest humanity was shared by both sides. A fundamental difference still exists, and will probably always exist, but this encounter put very real faces and stories on a perspective of life that rose far above simple gay/sin/right/wrong rhetoric and revealed a passionate blend of people, on both sides of the aisle, that were willing to embrace each other as people. It became fairly clear through the first minutes of the meeting that our foundational approaches to the sinfulness/moral neutrality of homosexual behavior was not going to shift. That being established, the humanity of everyone involved began to emerge and by the time we left it had become not a collection of gays and Christians, but a collection of people who all had very important things to learn from the honesty of each other. Kudos to ACU for having the spiritual fortitude and intellectual integrity to facilitate such an encounter.
I know ACU did not ask for this. They were told that Soulforce was coming. They had to choices to talk or to turn away. Soulforce was coming reguardless. I am so proud of ACU for their incredible response to this. They will know we are Christians by our love….
And just for Amy….
Guacamole anyone?
I meant TWO choices.
I am proud of ACU’s handling of the visit by the Soulforce contingent. No doubt they have an agenda, as do we. The Gospel of God is what changes lives, may they bump into it several times as they visit Christian Campuses.
I’m so happy ACU took the response to this group visiting as they did! And while I am not currently in Abilene, and have yet to hear how the events of today panned out; I hope they went well and were handled by all in a mature manner.
I recently wrote a blog entry about this topic and I can’t help but smile at how proud I am of my alma mater for taking the actions they did!
I love the Dr. John Steven’s quote that Dr. Money has repeatedly referenced because of this situation. I too think there shouldn’t be any topic we, Christians or not, should shy away from talking about.
I do not expect any policies to be changed at ACU because of this visit, nor am I saying any should, but I do not see ANY harm in openly allowing a topic–homosexuality or not, a sin or not, whatever the topic may be–to be discussed. If anything, this could possibly be an opportunity for ACU to defend what they believe in and possibly influence others.
It saddens me so when I read about the way the Riders have been treated in their previous 6 stops.
…sadly, I wonder if this controversy is more related to an issue of close-mindedness (being unwilling to even listen to someone’s else’s side), rather than an issue of “acceptance” as so many are putting is by saying, “look at which school is accepting the sinful homosexuals by allowing them to come speak on their campus”…
As a long-time resident of Searcy, HU alum, daughter of HU alum, wife and mother of HU alum, I believe that the love I’ve seen given to homosexuals in this community…while not condoning the sin…is in the spirit of Christ. One example is a secretary Mike Cope had while he was here…a young man much loved by the congregation who had AIDS as a result of his lifestyle. This young man who had a lot of musical talent knew everyone’s voice over the phone and was a computer whiz whom Mike called for help even after he moved. The Valentine’s Day he died White County Hospital’s halls were packed with Christians, singing him across Jordan into the arms of the Savior, and a few days later the church building was well-filled at his funeral. His family from another state was overwhelmed with the love and support…emotional, spiritual, financial…their loved one received during the last months/years of his life. A few days before he died he wrote a letter to the church thanking Christians for loving him, for helping him out of a sin he struggled with, and asking for forgiveness if there was anyone he had offended during his struggles.
I am glad ACU opened their doors to Soulforce. As Jeff Walling discussed at the workshop, Jesus was found with the “wrong” kind of people all the time, and was greatly criticized for it. We should all think through how we can best touch our own little worlds for Christ. By the way, I thoroughly enjoyed both you and Randy Harris at the workshop. It makes me want to take Freshman Bible at ACU. It really made me reconsider how I am using my gifts/time/life I received from God.
As one who also received Dr. Money’s letter, I am amazed and proud of the changes happening at ACU.
I was a freshman just a short 50yrs ago. I pray that todays freshman can witness the same kind of good-happening when they have their 50th class reunion.
I attended a student dialogue with the Soulforce folks today, and I was surprised at the way it went. Most surprising was being confronted with my own prejudices. I think of myself as a reasonably open-minded person, at least willing to listen to those with whom I disagree, so I was humbled to find prejudice lurking below the surface. I had assumed, as many who have posted here also seem to assume, that the Soulforce group would be mostly non-Christian, or at most only nominally Christian. It shocked me when at the beginning of the dialogue they each told the stories of their faith journeys; each person who shared has grown up in church and are followers of Jesus Christ. I was further shocked to hear them talk about discipleship and growing more in Christlike-ness.
Let me state clearly that I think homosexual behavior is a sin. But as I listened to the Soulforce group talk about their walks with Christ, I began to stop thinking in terms of “us” and “them.” I felt my heart moving in the direction of love and compassion instead. Usually, I think that’s a Holy Spirit move. They might have an agenda, just as we do; I think both groups are out to plant some seeds. But I think they also share the desire to pursue Christ and are trying to do so. I don’t think that homosexuality is acceptable, but there’s more to this than argumentation. We’re encountering others who are made in the image of God, others who really do desire to follow Christ. I was glad to be stretched today by the discussion.
So far today, there have been about 6000 “hits.” Obviously, there are so many areas for us to think through christianly.
Let me suggest three valuable resources for studying this topic:
Stanley Grenz, Welcoming But Not Affirming: An Evangelical REsponse to Homosexuality. GET THIS BOOK! Here’s what Ron Sider, one of my evangelical heroes said about it: “concise, compassionate and compelling–a superb statement of the historic Christian position.”
Richard Hays, The Moral Vision of the New Testament, pp. 379-406. The best brief statement I know of why the Christian church has traditionally opposed homosexuality, even while showing great compassion.
William Webb, Slaves, Women, and Homosexuals. Some say that those who knock down barriers with women in ministry and leadership will eventually do the same with homosexuality. Webb shows why biblically that is a wrong assumption.
Thank you, Kelli, for pointing out something that I’ve been thinking the whole time I was reading the comments on this thread.
I get so frustrated when I hear people endlessly discuss “Christians and homosexuals” as if the two were mutually exclusive groups. MANY people are both gay and Christian. I am not surprised that you found this to be the case with the Soulforce group.
And as a Christian, a former Harding University student, and a gay man, I really appreciate that ACU has been so welcoming to this particular group of their brothers and sisters in Christ.
As a member of Sally’s support group for those who struggle with homosexuality, let me throw in a few words.
First, I did not choose homosexuality. NO ONE wants to wake up one day and be gay. The life is too rough to be desired. Also, Bob, violence against, and intolerance for, homosexuals is not a “consequence” of a “choice.” It is hate that has no place in the human race, let alone the body of Christ. You don’t get to get away with hinting that it might be anything less.
Secondly, let me tell you what being a Christian who struggles against this is like. I hate living in my own skin. Every night, you can find me begging God to release me from my shame and pain. And that still doesn’t change how I feel towards people of my own gender. It is not an issue of having enough faith to be healed, or being turned straight. It is being at the same level of brokeness as everyone else, with much more stigma.
Everyday, I fear that someone will find me out. Expose me. Shame me.
Everyday, I wait for healing that may not come until after I draw my last breath.
And everyday, I am consumed by guilt that I cannot escape, even though I know that Christ’s blood covers me fully. One day, I will accept my place as a beloved child of God. For now, though, I still hide behind a veil of lies to my family, friends, and almost everyone else.
Thanks for the booklist, Mike. I met the late Stan Grenz briefly (he taught in my ‘hometown’), and read Sexual Ethics, but not Accepting But Not Affirming in particular. But I’m happy to add you suggestions to my overloaded reading list!
I don’t know how I went through 8 years in ACU’s CBS/GST without being assigned any of his stuff. But even if they didn’t give us Stan Grenz to read, they still made a good move with Soulforce. Yes, I think homosexual behavoiur is a sin, and that homosexual orientation is not what our Creator God wants/intends/designed for people. But I sure wish I’d been able to sit in on the GST/MFT session, and I’m envious/proud of Derran and Ann Reese and Justin Tuggle for busting out with the hospitality.
I applaud ACU for allowing dialogue to occur. As an ACU alumn, I think ACU did me a great disservice by exposing me to only one side of every issue–the fiscally and socially conservative one. College should be a place where one is exposed and confronted with an array of viewpoints.
I agree with those that have posted that the issue of homosexualtiy is not black and white. Given our past racial indescretions we should treat the idea of “black and white” with care. Just a couple of generations ago our grandparents and great-grandparents had had the same discussion substituting the words “negroes” (or worse) with “gays”. I’m not saying that I’m sure that the 2 issues are an absolute historical parallel–but at the very least it should give us pause to reflect and consider the possibility.
Check out this piece by Matali Perkins from crosswalk.com (which someone linked to earlier):
The “Soulforce” Bus Litmus Test
Your teen is considering a Christian college, and you’re wondering how four years in a cloistered environment will equip him to serve as a diplomat for Christ in the “real” world. Here’s your chance to find out which schools excel at that task.
Track the route of 33 young adults on a seven-week bus journey with a mission “to confront colleges that ban the enrollment of LGBT students,” and consider the varied responses of the administration, faculty, and the students on each campus. If my son wanted to apply to Abilene Christian University, for example, I’d support him wholeheartedly after reading president Royce Money’s response:
(This visit) been a sobering reminder to me that it’s easier to condemn and avoid than encounter and be a Christian witness … One of the good things it has done (is) make us realize that we had not done a good job in informing our students to deal with a variety of cultural forces that they will face after college. So this has encouraged us to do a better job … The true character of an institution is shown in the way it faces certain challenges, and this visit is such a challenge. Therefore, it is important we conduct ourselves in a Christ-like manner in what we do and say — and I think we will.
A student editorial echoes Money’s sentiments. The bus arrives on that campus today, and it seems to me that members of the Church of Christ can indulge in a bit of godly pride (if there is such a thing) as their flagship University hosts these young visitors.
I encourage you to pray for each college as the bus travels across the country, as well as for each of the thirty-three riders by name, and share with us what you know and think about their visits.
Bob said: “I don’t mean this as being unsympathetic, uncaring or anything else. We should remember, however, that this is a CHOICE homosexuals are making. Choices have consequences, right or wrong.”
I have to say, Bob, that as a teacher and a Christian, I’ve known a lot of gays and lesbians over the years. I’ve had students in my office weeping because their parents would no longer speak to them or acknowledge that they were alive. I’ve had students in my office who were verbally and emotionally abused to the point of suicide. I’ve had students in my office still bearing the bruises and scars of physical violence. And what I can say in every case is that I’ve never met a single person who CHOSE to be homosexual… Sat down and said, “You know, I think being gay would be a great idea. I’m going to give that a try for a while.” Such a choice, given the prevailing views of our churches, our families, and even our culture at large (which has voted overwhelmingly against gay marriage, gay rights, etc.) would be the stupidest and most short-sighted choice a person could make….
So in thinking about homosexuality, I suppose it might be illuminating to remember back to the days when we sat down and decided that our sexual orientation would be straight–looked at the options and said “I think I’ll be a heterosexual.” If it’s hard to remember the day you made that call–if you always just felt yourself to be who you are–then you can perhaps begin to understand where the homosexuals I’ve known are coming from… They didn’t pick this, and many of them have spent a significant amount of time trying to fight it or run from it or deny it–trying to pick something else. I don’t know whether it’s nature or nurture, something genetic or something that comes from things they’ve faced in their lives, but I do know that it’s just who my students feel themselves to be.
And that says nothing, you should note, about whether or not homosexuality is a sin–which, to be frank (and pretty radical) seems sort of beside the point. After all, which of us isn’t involved with–infested with–sin? Gluttony, greed, lust, gossip, lying…. If we’re trying to act out of purity, we shouldn’t let any of THOSE people in the church without calling them to account for their CHOICE (remember: choices have consequences, right or wrong). I know some pretty flagrant sinners in those areas in our churches. Heck, I’m a pretty flagrant sinner in those areas…. So how do we meet and respond to people who’ve made those choices? What’s Christ’s message? What’s the witness of scripture? Love first. If you’re a sinner, we love you. If you’re fallen, we welcome you. If you’ve made bad choices, we give you a safe place. The change in your life will come later through the spirit and the ministry of fellow Christians, but the love comes first. So if we think homosexuality is a sin, we’re called to love. If we think it isn’t, we’re called to love. That’s what our family does. It’s who we are.
As for the SoulForce riders, they’ve been courteous and thoughtful. They’ve said publicly that they’re not here to try to convince anyone that homosexuality is not a sin; they’re merely here to call Christians to act for justice, peace, and compassion–to protect the outcast, the stranger, the downtrodden. That seems like a pretty Christlike thing to ask us to do. And they’ve been deeply moved by the welcome and blessing they’ve received from being treated with humanity and compassion. One presenter said to me, the emotion evident on his face, that this is the first university in their entire trip that’s let them make their presentation; all 7 of the universities they’ve previously visited have refused to let them even be heard, many locking them out of campus entirely. The image of the praying-hands statue at the entrance of Oral Roberts University surrounded by police barricades and orange cones stands in sharp contrast to the welcome they feel here at ACU–and welcoming the sinner–me, you, them–is always the first thing God does. I don’t know about the rest of the folks at the other schools, but I certainly know that the people at ACU will be able to sing–with clear hearts and with no touch of irony–”They’ll know we are Christians by our love…” I’m proud to be at ACU, and I’m glad to have a God who loves me, even when I’m still a sinner.
It looks like Soulforce’s visit to ACU was a success by the comments posted here. I wish they could visit every school that doesn’t want them as students.
It’s healthy for Christian exclusionary policies to be challenged.
AtlantaBob - I’m hearing today from lots of ACU people who are overwhelmed with all the things they witnessed God doing in the past couple days. And just because a Christian school has a policy forbidding ANY kind of sexual relationship outside of marriage between a man and a woman (homosexual or heterosexual) doesn’t mean that people aren’t welcome.
There is obviously a lot of interest on this visit of Soulforce and on the larger topic of homosexuality. If I have time, I’ll try to post on this again later in the week.
I think ACU did great. As an eastcoast COCer with no relationships (yet) in Texas, I am very impressed.
There is a perception gap between the inclusive agenda of Jesus and the generally necessary (sometimes frustratingly provincial) exclusionary policies of a Christian college.
I would imagine some of the ‘overwhelmed’ feelings on campus are from meeting the challenge and representing God well. I think it’s healthy and I wish all of our colleges had that same opportunity.
It sounds like a successful event for everyone.
Mike,
Thanks for suggesting a few books on the ‘issue,’ but, wouldn’t it be wise to include a more diverse set of scholarship? Are there any books you’ve read that have made you consider affirming the gay and lesbian Christians that attend Highland?
From what I understand (please correct me if I’m wrong, Mike), Mike does affirm Christians at Highland who are experiencing a homosexual orientation; he does not affirm their homosexual orientation as something good or intended by God. THere is a real difference, but the wording of your question leaves no room for that distinction.
Mike’s particular selections are not just a couple of ‘Joe-PhD’s who conveniently conclude that affirming homosexuality is unbiblical; Hays and Grenz (I haven’t read any Webb) are top-notch, well-respected scholarly experts in their fields. In fact, Grenz’s Sexual Ethics comes highly endorsed by James B. Nelson, who has been developing a foundation for pro-homosexual theology since the Sexual Revolution and who disagrees strongly with Grenz’s conclusions. (There’s your link to some scholarship arguing that we should affirm homosexuality.)
There’s sort of this unspoken myth floating around that Christians (and scholars) who don’t affirm homosexuality only think that way because pro-homosexuality voices have been stifled and people refuse to adequately consider the arguments of homosexuality-affirming scholarship; that it’s just a matter of exposing those folks to enough ‘real’ scholarship. The honest ones will then face the music, see the light, and affirm homosexuality. This perspective is rather over-confident; the scholarship is not so one-sided.
I am proud of ACU, especially the students. Yes, there exists a “Gay Agenda”, but God also has an agenda of love and truth and it is more powerful than all things.
Kent and I enjoyed the blessings of ACU’s attitude when I was a student there [concerning him being divorced and remarried]. This powerful treatment of others [when you are respectful to other people while maintaining the integrity of christian beliefs] can make a big difference… . I hope other colleges will learn from Abilene’s example.
….and my apologies for getting off topic here…specifically to Gay Restorationist, the author of this blog is not incognito, why must you be anonymous?
Linda,
If you visit Gay Restorationist’s blog, you will see why he doesn’t use his real name. It isn’t that hard to figure out. Despite the good reception that some gay people received recently at ACU, many Churches of Christ are still not safe places for openly gay people.
Brian