Comments on: Like a Shepherd Lead Us http://preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us Sniffing out the work of God in the world... Tue, 02 Dec 2008 14:12:43 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Brad Giddens http://preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9490 Brad Giddens Wed, 22 Mar 2006 06:24:35 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9490 I'm for connecting with culture. We have built a wall around ourselves for too long. But I have some sincere questions about what is being called for in regard to Hollywood and believers trying to connect through it somehow. For one thing, Hollywood and what comes out of it does not represent our culture. It is, for the most part, fantasy. It is not based on the reality of most people in our culture, and relates even less for the rest of the world. What is it that's coming out of Hollywood are we talking about? Second, someone needs to explain how watching movies somehow connects me? What kind of dialogue is it supposed to create? I've heard believers just gush praise over the movie Crash, saying it was one of the best movies of the year. Not only did it contain graphic sex, but it was rated as the oscar nominee with the highest count of foul language. Now if I'm missing something, please help me, but what part of watching that movie honors Christ? I don't think I need to watch people having sex to somehow connect with my culture. I don't think I need to hear the f-bomb being dropped dozens of times to somehow get in touch with those I am trying to bring to Christ. Must I embrace a movie with such content to create dialogue? What would that dialogue look like? Could I have the same dialogue and not have to subject myself to the filth, even though there might be some good in it? It seems to me if we want to connect to culture, go down to your local high school and hang out with those kids. That's real life. Go to a bar and sit down next to a drunk and strike up a conversation about how his life has been ruined by addiction. Hang out with some homeless people and see the emptiness in their eyes. That's real. Hang out with those who are overextended in their finances. Go to a hospital and look disease in the eye. Befriend a prostitute on crack. Go to a nursing home. Adopt a heroin baby. Help a single mom. Drive a shift with a local police officer. That's reality. I guess what I'm saying is, let's let Hollywood do what they do best, entertain. They help us escape the real world for several hours. That's why I like to go to the movies. But as believers, let's seek cultural relevance in something that looks more like reality, the lives of the people around us everyday. It seems that's what Jesus did. I’m for connecting with culture. We have built a wall around ourselves for too long. But I have some sincere questions about what is being called for in regard to Hollywood and believers trying to connect through it somehow.

For one thing, Hollywood and what comes out of it does not represent our culture. It is, for the most part, fantasy. It is not based on the reality of most people in our culture, and relates even less for the rest of the world. What is it that’s coming out of Hollywood are we talking about?

Second, someone needs to explain how watching movies somehow connects me? What kind of dialogue is it supposed to create? I’ve heard believers just gush praise over the movie Crash, saying it was one of the best movies of the year. Not only did it contain graphic sex, but it was rated as the oscar nominee with the highest count of foul language. Now if I’m missing something, please help me, but what part of watching that movie honors Christ? I don’t think I need to watch people having sex to somehow connect with my culture. I don’t think I need to hear the f-bomb being dropped dozens of times to somehow get in touch with those I am trying to bring to Christ. Must I embrace a movie with such content to create dialogue? What would that dialogue look like? Could I have the same dialogue and not have to subject myself to the filth, even though there might be some good in it?

It seems to me if we want to connect to culture, go down to your local high school and hang out with those kids. That’s real life. Go to a bar and sit down next to a drunk and strike up a conversation about how his life has been ruined by addiction. Hang out with some homeless people and see the emptiness in their eyes. That’s real. Hang out with those who are overextended in their finances. Go to a hospital and look disease in the eye. Befriend a prostitute on crack. Go to a nursing home. Adopt a heroin baby. Help a single mom. Drive a shift with a local police officer. That’s reality.

I guess what I’m saying is, let’s let Hollywood do what they do best, entertain. They help us escape the real world for several hours. That’s why I like to go to the movies. But as believers, let’s seek cultural relevance in something that looks more like reality, the lives of the people around us everyday. It seems that’s what Jesus did.

]]> By: Calvin (G'ampa C) http://preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9489 Calvin (G'ampa C) Wed, 22 Mar 2006 05:08:47 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9489 Great discussion. Count on Jeff to hit the nail on the head (again). Many of the things we do as disciples of Christ mean different things to us as we mature. Baptism, giving, fellowship, singing, prayer, communion, almost everything we do. Having grown up in the Church of Christ, I went through all the same things people are discussing. I don't agree with all of those pat answers any more, BUT, I am where I am because I am on the journey. All those "rules" were part of that journey, a necessary part, at least for me. I don't want to be a "Church of Christ doctrine" basher any more than I want to complain about having to be a baby or child or adolescent. It's part of the journey, part of my history, part of how Jesus has broken my heart and made me face love and the resulting grace right in the eyes. Everyone won't have all the same trails or trials that I have had, even though we travel in the same direction. Where I want to go with baptism and especially communion is a function of that journey. I think it is to be treasured and shared with our children, not withheld from them. That being said, I must say that baptism is unimaginably more precious and complex to me now than it was when I was dunked in 1969. Communion is even more so. There is just cause, in my opinion, to assume children (immersed or not) SHOULD be involved in the Lord'a Supper just as they were involved in the Passover meal from which communion arose. It shows them they are involved in their own journey with the Passover Lamb. Can we really admit that communion is involved in eternal life (as Jesus said in John), that it makes us one (as Jesus prayed for and Paul described), that it involves the (new) Blood of the Covenant, that it is a critical part of our Spiritual and physical health and strength (as Paul taught the Corinthians), then withhold it from our children????? That doesn't make sense to me anymore, but I have to respect those who don't agree with me. My journey has not been perfect, not by a long shot. But I'm here under God's grace BY God's grace, anyway. I hope that's where He will lead us all, regardless of our differences with each other and with our pasts. Sorry about the long post, Mike. I gues you struck a tender spot. C. Great discussion. Count on Jeff to hit the nail on the head (again). Many of the things we do as disciples of Christ mean different things to us as we mature. Baptism, giving, fellowship, singing, prayer, communion, almost everything we do. Having grown up in the Church of Christ, I went through all the same things people are discussing. I don’t agree with all of those pat answers any more, BUT, I am where I am because I am on the journey. All those “rules” were part of that journey, a necessary part, at least for me. I don’t want to be a “Church of Christ doctrine” basher any more than I want to complain about having to be a baby or child or adolescent. It’s part of the journey, part of my history, part of how Jesus has broken my heart and made me face love and the resulting grace right in the eyes. Everyone won’t have all the same trails or trials that I have had, even though we travel in the same direction. Where I want to go with baptism and especially communion is a function of that journey. I think it is to be treasured and shared with our children, not withheld from them.
That being said, I must say that baptism is unimaginably more precious and complex to me now than it was when I was dunked in 1969. Communion is even more so. There is just cause, in my opinion, to assume children (immersed or not) SHOULD be involved in the Lord’a Supper just as they were involved in the Passover meal from which communion arose. It shows them they are involved in their own journey with the Passover Lamb. Can we really admit that communion is involved in eternal life (as Jesus said in John), that it makes us one (as Jesus prayed for and Paul described), that it involves the (new) Blood of the Covenant, that it is a critical part of our Spiritual and physical health and strength (as Paul taught the Corinthians), then withhold it from our children?????
That doesn’t make sense to me anymore, but I have to respect those who don’t agree with me. My journey has not been perfect, not by a long shot. But I’m here under God’s grace BY God’s grace, anyway. I hope that’s where He will lead us all, regardless of our differences with each other and with our pasts.
Sorry about the long post, Mike. I gues you struck a tender spot. C.

]]> By: Cary http://preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9488 Cary Wed, 22 Mar 2006 04:19:40 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9488 I'm a little confused as to why we have the duality of "Hardened Sinner->Baptism->Saint" and "Good life->Baptism->Good life". Neither of these seem to be realistic - as if baptism is either a cure for sin or a badge making a Godly life official. I haven't seen baptism function as either one of these. I too, was raised in the church all my life and was a pretty good Christian kid. I was baptized in my teens, mainly because it was time to do so. But I in no way see that as the validation of a life that was already good before God. It was a first step in a long journey of making my faith my own and turning everything over to the control of God. We need to be careful about over-validating the lives we lead, both before and after baptism. Baptism is the step that consciously says "God, no matter what kind of life I have led, I amount to nothing through it and I am desperate and totally dependent on you." We then go into the grave and arise with Christ owning a life that is still broken, but a soul that is reborn into a spiritual kingdom. If baptism does not signal this powerful transition, then we have made it irrelevant. \ My Life->Baptism->God's Life I’m a little confused as to why we have the duality of “Hardened Sinner->Baptism->Saint” and “Good life->Baptism->Good life”. Neither of these seem to be realistic - as if baptism is either a cure for sin or a badge making a Godly life official.

I haven’t seen baptism function as either one of these. I too, was raised in the church all my life and was a pretty good Christian kid. I was baptized in my teens, mainly because it was time to do so. But I in no way see that as the validation of a life that was already good before God. It was a first step in a long journey of making my faith my own and turning everything over to the control of God.

We need to be careful about over-validating the lives we lead, both before and after baptism. Baptism is the step that consciously says “God, no matter what kind of life I have led, I amount to nothing through it and I am desperate and totally dependent on you.” We then go into the grave and arise with Christ owning a life that is still broken, but a soul that is reborn into a spiritual kingdom. If baptism does not signal this powerful transition, then we have made it irrelevant.

\ My Life->Baptism->God’s Life

]]> By: Dee Andrews http://preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9487 Dee Andrews Wed, 22 Mar 2006 01:23:37 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9487 Thanks so much, Mike, for bringing up these two topics. Especially the one on children's baptisms. As my three kids were growing up I had to deal with that issue with each of them more than once because at very young ages, they were made to feel guilty by some of their Sunday school teachers for not having yet been baptized. And we're talking about kids 8, 9 & 10 years old. Not older teens. For example - my youngest, Mark, when he was 10 was just a perfect kid. I mean - as perfect as they come. He had no hang-ups about material things in life. He was perfectly happy with faded, worn- out blue jeans with huge ragged holes in the knees and old knit shirts. It didn't matter to him whether his hair was short or long, whether his shoes were new or old. He was totally unaffected by physical surroundings. His internal clock was really on a different schedule and in a different place all the time from most people. He decided one day that year that he was bored with life at the moment, so he said, "I think I'll just go on to heaven and wait for you there - I'm bored." It told him, "Look, kid, you aren't going to get out of fifth grade that easy. You'll just have to stick it out with the rest of us." Besides, I needed the company of such a one. He read his Bible a lot and had his own personal theology all worked out. It was fascinating and amazing to listen to how his mind worked. He was studying and thinking about Christianity and came to me one day saying, "Well, I think I'm nearly ready to be baptized - I just don't understand guilt well enough." So I said, "Well, what is it that you don't understand?" And, he said, with much consternation, "Well, - I just don't feel guilty." I consoled him, saying, "You really don't have anything to feel guilty about, you know. You are a good boy and obedient son." He quickly replied, "I didn't set the table just when you asked me." I reassured him that it didn't qualify for the unpardonable sin and anyone with his attitude was O.K. He was baptized a couple of years later and still remembers to this day - at 35 - why he was baptized and who the young man was who taught his group who was so influential in causing him to do so. It MEANT something to him. Very much so. He knew what he was doing and he hadn't known when he was 10. But he WAS very much a loving, obedient son. He still is, in every way. In his early adult years he went through some very difficult times and was led "astray" as we say, for a while, but I prayed for him every day during that time that God would protect him until he "could come to his senses," and God did. And Mark repented and has lived a deeply spiritual life ever since, just as he had as a child and before that brief time. Oh how we mistreat and emotionally abuse our children sometimes in churches. And oh how wrong and terrible it is. Mike - you have done us all a great service today by talking about this very important subject. Thank you is not enough to say. God bless you for your encouragement and dialogue. Thanks so much, Mike, for bringing up these two topics. Especially the one on children’s baptisms. As my three kids were growing up I had to deal with that issue with each of them more than once because at very young ages, they were made to feel guilty by some of their Sunday school teachers for not having yet been baptized. And we’re talking about kids 8, 9 & 10 years old. Not older teens.

For example - my youngest, Mark, when he was 10 was just a perfect kid. I mean - as perfect as they come.

He had no hang-ups about material things in life. He was perfectly happy with faded, worn- out blue jeans with huge ragged holes in the knees and old knit shirts. It didn’t matter to him whether his hair was short or long, whether his shoes were new or old. He was totally unaffected by physical surroundings. His internal clock was really on a different schedule and in a different place all the time from most people.

He decided one day that year that he was bored with life at the moment, so he said, “I think I’ll just go on to heaven and wait for you there - I’m bored.”

It told him, “Look, kid, you aren’t going to get out of fifth grade that easy. You’ll just have to stick it out with the rest of us.” Besides, I needed the company of such a one.

He read his Bible a lot and had his own personal theology all worked out. It was fascinating and amazing to listen to how his mind worked.

He was studying and thinking about Christianity and came to me one day saying, “Well, I think I’m nearly ready to be baptized - I just don’t understand guilt well enough.”

So I said, “Well, what is it that you don’t understand?”

And, he said, with much consternation, “Well, - I just don’t feel guilty.”

I consoled him, saying, “You really don’t have anything to feel guilty about, you know. You are a good boy and obedient son.”

He quickly replied, “I didn’t set the table just when you asked me.” I reassured him that it didn’t qualify for the unpardonable sin and anyone with his attitude was O.K.

He was baptized a couple of years later and still remembers to this day - at 35 - why he was baptized and who the young man was who taught his group who was so influential in causing him to do so. It MEANT something to him. Very much so. He knew what he was doing and he hadn’t known when he was 10.

But he WAS very much a loving, obedient son. He still is, in every way. In his early adult years he went through some very difficult times and was led “astray” as we say, for a while, but I prayed for him every day during that time that God would protect him until he “could come to his senses,” and God did.

And Mark repented and has lived a deeply spiritual life ever since, just as he had as a child and before that brief time.

Oh how we mistreat and emotionally abuse our children sometimes in churches. And oh how wrong and terrible it is.

Mike - you have done us all a great service today by talking about this very important subject. Thank you is not enough to say. God bless you for your encouragement and dialogue.

]]> By: clint http://preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9485 clint Tue, 21 Mar 2006 22:06:52 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9485 Grant , your off the list! Grant , your off the list!

]]> By: TCS http://preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9484 TCS Tue, 21 Mar 2006 21:53:04 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9484 I remember one time pushing Angie into a baptistry! I don't think that one meant anything, but it sure was funny! I remember one time pushing Angie into a baptistry! I don’t think that one meant anything, but it sure was funny!

]]> By: Grant http://preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9483 Grant Tue, 21 Mar 2006 21:45:55 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9483 Maybe we can find middle ground by baptizing for the remission of Santa. Maybe we can find middle ground by baptizing for the remission of Santa.

]]> By: Mike http://preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9482 Mike Tue, 21 Mar 2006 21:06:04 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9482 Thanks, Steve. I had written Leonard Allen to tell him I couldn't find it on Amazon, either. I presume it'll be there soon. But it is available through the site Steve gave. Juli, I'll try to write more about this later. And TCS, I've VERY thankful for those camps and youth rallies that don't pressure kids to make sudden decisions. I know there are some that understand the journey metaphor better than others. Thanks, Steve. I had written Leonard Allen to tell him I couldn’t find it on Amazon, either. I presume it’ll be there soon. But it is available through the site Steve gave. Juli, I’ll try to write more about this later. And TCS, I’ve VERY thankful for those camps and youth rallies that don’t pressure kids to make sudden decisions. I know there are some that understand the journey metaphor better than others.

]]> By: Steve http://preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9481 Steve Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:49:59 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9481 Web site and phone number for the book is here: http://leafwood.notlong.com Web site and phone number for the book is here:

http://leafwood.notlong.com

]]> By: Beverly http://preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9480 Beverly Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:08:49 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9480 Okay, Deana, you made me laugh..that is hilarious! Okay, Deana, you made me laugh..that is hilarious!

]]> By: John http://preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9479 John Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:03:27 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9479 I grew up in the church of Christ. My dad was the preacher. All I knew was living the Christian life. But even though I never lived as a reprobate, when I was twelve, I began to realize that even my "little sins" were separating me from God. At 13 I finally decided to do something about that separation. That's what we need to be teaching our children. It's not about repenting from horrible sins but that even the tiniest of sins in our eyes separates us from God. Sin is sin - whether it be the white lie of a 12 year old raised in the church or the drug addiction of an 18 year old who never heard of Christ. The result is the same. I also think it's about commitment and responsibility as well. We let kids who are 8, 9, and 10 years old make the most important decision of their lives - a life a commitment and responsibility but we would never think of letting them stay home by themselves or cut their own meat because they are too young. In my mind, if a kid still believes in Santa Claus, how can they mentally mature enough to make the decision to put on Christ? I grew up in the church of Christ. My dad was the preacher. All I knew was living the Christian life. But even though I never lived as a reprobate, when I was twelve, I began to realize that even my “little sins” were separating me from God. At 13 I finally decided to do something about that separation. That’s what we need to be teaching our children. It’s not about repenting from horrible sins but that even the tiniest of sins in our eyes separates us from God. Sin is sin - whether it be the white lie of a 12 year old raised in the church or the drug addiction of an 18 year old who never heard of Christ. The result is the same. I also think it’s about commitment and responsibility as well. We let kids who are 8, 9, and 10 years old make the most important decision of their lives - a life a commitment and responsibility but we would never think of letting them stay home by themselves or cut their own meat because they are too young. In my mind, if a kid still believes in Santa Claus, how can they mentally mature enough to make the decision to put on Christ?

]]> By: Anthony http://preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9478 Anthony Tue, 21 Mar 2006 17:59:41 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9478 Mike, could you mention the publisher or a web site where the book could be ordered? I couldn't find it on Amazon. (I wanted to add it to my wish list.) Thanks. Mike, could you mention the publisher or a web site where the book could be ordered? I couldn’t find it on Amazon. (I wanted to add it to my wish list.) Thanks.

]]> By: Deana Nall http://preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9477 Deana Nall Tue, 21 Mar 2006 17:47:53 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9477 Oh -- and our daughter's in speech therapy, but isn't the way she talks so darn cute? Oh — and our daughter’s in speech therapy, but isn’t the way she talks so darn cute?

]]> By: Deana Nall http://preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9476 Deana Nall Tue, 21 Mar 2006 17:46:37 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9476 I remember my dad not understanding why I wanted to get baptized at age nine. "But... you haven't really sinned," he said. But I what if I waited until I did sin, and then tripped walking down the aisle and impaled myself on one of those little golf pencils the Bible says we're supposed to fill out the membership cards with? Or what if the water is too cold and I die of hypothermia during the speech about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? Just dunk me, get it over with so I can get into the safe zone. When our daughter was six, she wanted to get baptized. I asked her if she knew what it meant to get baptized and she said, "It's when you decide to follow Chwist." No fear of going to hell involved for her. I'm glad... and a little envious. I remember my dad not understanding why I wanted to get baptized at age nine. “But… you haven’t really sinned,” he said. But I what if I waited until I did sin, and then tripped walking down the aisle and impaled myself on one of those little golf pencils the Bible says we’re supposed to fill out the membership cards with? Or what if the water is too cold and I die of hypothermia during the speech about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? Just dunk me, get it over with so I can get into the safe zone.

When our daughter was six, she wanted to get baptized. I asked her if she knew what it meant to get baptized and she said, “It’s when you decide to follow Chwist.” No fear of going to hell involved for her. I’m glad… and a little envious.

]]> By: Beverly http://preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9475 Beverly Tue, 21 Mar 2006 17:33:34 +0000 http://www.preachermike.com/2006/03/21/like-a-shepherd-lead-us#comment-9475 How much do you have to get before you are baptised? I am still gettting some of this stuff.. I am sure those 3000, spoken of in Acts, probably didn't get it..they "accepted the message." How much do you have to get before you are baptised? I am still gettting some of this stuff..
I am sure those 3000, spoken of in Acts, probably didn’t get it..they “accepted the message.”

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